Pena Makes Opening Day Roster
nope not that Pena.. TONY PENA JR.
DAMNIT.
FRISCO, Texas -- Backup shortstop Tony Pena Jr. has made the roster, and the 11-man pitching staff has been virtually set, manager Trey Hillman said before Friday night's exhibition game against Texas.
7 months ago
focs
110 comments
1 recs |
Email
PrintComments
"You pooped in the refrigerator?"
“And you sent Hoch, Banny, and Shealy down, made Ponson the #4 starter, AND kept TPJ on the 25-man?? Heck, I’m not even that mad. That’s amazing.”
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 3, 2009 10:43 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Thank Xenu
They were clearly afraid someone would claim him on waivers
by Top Ramen on Apr 3, 2009 10:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
tree-mendous
prepare a parking spot now so that Jeff Francoeur can easily to to the parade staging area.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 3, 2009 10:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have a serious question
I"m not saying this was the right call to make, but my question is this: how much does it hurt a team to have a good defensive middle IFer who can’t hit on the bench? And if one’s answer involves saying that he isn’t a good defensive middle IFer, I’d direct your attention to his UZR which shows very plainly that he is (that doesn’t resolve the issue in and of itself, but it is good evidence).
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 3, 2009 11:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
not a ton
but its the chocolate cake in the fridge problem
not bad as long as its not being eaten…
but how long can you resist?
the royals had a chance to end this relationship, and they didn’t
by royalsreview on Apr 3, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think his existence is less dangerous than you are implying
And he’s an effective defensive replacement. And with Bloomquist on the roster, he’ll make precious few starts.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 3, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lets hope that is the plan
otherwise money is really being thrown down the drain.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
by Warden11 on Apr 3, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If his sole reason for being on the roster is as a defensive replacement...
then who is he coming in for? It looks as though Teahen is going to be starting at 2B regularly. So, TPJ becomes a late-inning defensive replacement at SS and Aviles shifts over to 2B? Isn’t there a question as to whether TPJ’s defense is really a significant improvement over Aviles’? And if that’s the standard late-inning-lead defensive scenario (with Teahen shifting to RF and Guillen sitting), then what is Bloomquist there for?
As far as the rest of the bench is concerned, if Maier or Costa (less likely) is there, then what is Maier/Costa there for? The once a week (maybe) spelling of DDJ or Crisp? Because under the scenario above, neither of them would be needed.
Bottom line, I just don’t understand why TPJ wasn’t put through waivers, assigned to Omaha, and then available for a callup if there was actually an injury which required him to come up and maybe start (Aviles), or if someone else got hurt and Bloomquist was starting for them, then as a utility guy. I know Hernandez is down there already, but I’d just much rather have Maier and Brayan on the 25-man.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 3, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the weird thing about TPJ is that he's error prone
and I know errors suck as a tool overall, but …
by royalsreview on Apr 3, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, they do matter
if measured properly. UZR measures them separately for range, but I don’t think it uses the scorer’s errors. Could be wrong about that , not sure exactly.
TPJ is below average in that regard, although just slghtlly so.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 3, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wasn't there grumblings last season about him losing focus at times
his errors seemed to be heavy on throwing errors… though I could be wrong
by royalsreview on Apr 3, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he has the sunglasses now
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 3, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While Speaking about Defensive replacements
Late in games, someone brought up this point earlier this week…
Innings 1 – 7 (lets say)
1B – Butler/Jacobs
2B – Teahen
Innings 8 – 9
1B – Teahen
2B – Bloomy (or even AC)
I think that plan makes the most sense, as opposed to
1 – 7
SS – Aviles
2B – Teahen
1B – Butler/Jacobs
8 – 9
SS – Pena
2B – Aviles
1B – Teahen
And, am I the only one that thinks that calling TPJ a ‘defensive replacement’ type of player is a frigging joke? That’s like boasting about upgrading from Schlitz to PBR. You’re still drinking shit (though I do like a good PBR).
BOOM! ROASTED!
by GoBabies!! on Apr 4, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO you're not the only one
TPJ isn’t as good as people think. He’s also not as bad. He’s flashy, which is why people think he’s good. But, the real point is that Aviles is not at all as bad as people seem to think. I’d always just play him the whole game. I don’t think anything is gained by bringing TPJ. It’s absurd.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
by kabrink on Apr 4, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's something more than flash
He has the most out-of-zone plays over the last two years of any Royals player. That means he has excellent range. Of course he also has some problems with routine plays. And he has a very strong arm, as you can see from his throws from the hole.
But, the real point is that Aviles is not at all as bad as people seem to think. I’d always just play him the whole game. I don’t think anything is gained by bringing TPJ. It’s absurd.
Compare these two possibilities defensively:
SS Aviles
2B Teahen
vs.
SS TPJ
2B Aviles
In the first pairing, you have a slightly above average defensive SS (let’s say) and a well below average defensive SS. In the second pairing, you have a well above average defensive SS (let’s say) and an above average defensive 2B. Isn’t that a meaningful upgrade defensively? It would appear that doing this in the 9th inning to protect a lead make sense.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps so.
But, when was the last time Aviles played any at 2B? I’m not aware of them trying him there ever. Doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. I just don’t recall ever reading/hearing about it. So, not sure it would be such a good idea.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
by kabrink on Apr 4, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yes
I know he HAS played at 2B somewhere in his past. I just mean recent enough to be meaningful and in the MLB.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
by kabrink on Apr 4, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you can play pretty good SS, you can play genuinely good 2B
There isn’t much of an adjustment to be made. It’s not like moving from an IF position to the OF or learning to be a catcher.
And, to answer your question, he had 28 games at 2B last year for the Royals, and 32 games at 2B in Omaha last year.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
weird
I don’t recall those games at all. And I watched a ton of games. hmmm, well I am old.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
by kabrink on Apr 4, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They weren't all starts
Some of them were games he started at SS and then moved to 2B later in the game.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 2:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets compare the overall
Compare these two possibilities defensively:
SS Aviles
2B Teahen
vs.
SS TPJ
2B Aviles
We have to factor 1B in there too, so which is the ‘best’ overall defense in a 3-2 game in the 8th inning….
SS – Aviles
2B – Bloomy
1B – Teahen
SS – Pena
2B – Aviles
1B – Teahen
SS – Pena
2B – Bloomy
1B – Teahen
My personal preference is the 1st option, since that leaves the most pop in the line-up to possibly add an insurance run
BOOM! ROASTED!
by GoBabies!! on Apr 4, 2009 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My personal preference is the 1st option, since that leaves the most pop in the line-up to possibly add an insurance run
The difference between the first option and the second option is Bloomquist vs. Pena. Neither of them have any pop. None. When protecting a lead, I’d rather have a better defensive player who also can’t hit.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I avoid putting Teahen at 1b.
He might have better range than Butler at the position but with Aviles playing 2b they can sacrifice a little range and go with Billy’s hands. Teahen doesn’t get enough reps at 1b to keep his hands up to snuff for the position.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
by kcscoliny on Apr 4, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather have Teahen take Guillen's spot.
I’m not as worried about the 1B trying to scoop as a rangy outfield protecting against doubles.
by BrRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats a good point too
I forget that we really don’t have a true OF backup on the proposed roster
BOOM! ROASTED!
by GoBabies!! on Apr 4, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it should be “I know errors suck as a tool overall,” period.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 3, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If done the right way, they can and should be included as part of a greater analysis
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
I was just saying that if Bloomquist isn’t on the field, he better be the first defensive replacement.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
by Warden11 on Apr 3, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My response was more directed toward NYRoyal's...
earlier comments. I guess I’m just really upset that we were sold a bill of goods on The Spork. I mean, can he really play 7 positions or not? I want my money back. The Spork is missing one of its half-tongs right now as far as I’m concerned.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 3, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tongs? Or is it "tines"?
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 4, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure, but I sure as hell am going downstairs to get some chocolate cake before we start up for reals
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 3, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to direct your attention to the guy how reminds everyone
any time that someone brings up a defensive stat that they are very “questionable,” and that a bit more than 200 games of defensive stats is like half a season’s sample size of hitting stats…
heh heh.. .but SERIOUSLY, folks…
My own super-primitive projection system uses bUZR, regresses to the Fans Scouting report, and incoporates a fair amount of regression the mean. I’m not saying it’s awesome, but I think it’s helpful.
If gives a +4.0 per 1300 innings for TPJ.
And before you say that the FSR is biasing it, without it, well, no, the Fans think he’s awesome. Without it, with just plain regression, he’s +1.9
Rally’s Totalzone projection (which has a larger sample since he uses minor leaguese) has him at +1.
But even if he’s +15, he’s such a bad hitter — I mean, -40? He can’t pinch-hit, then. He’s right-handed anyway, so even applying a pretty big split he’s still useless as a pinch-hitter. Now, a run saved is the same as a run earned, but the talent spread just isn’t that big, and in one inning? If choosing between guys at the same position, one of whom is a good hitter and bad defender, and another guy who is equal the other directino, I say it makes more sense to start the good defender, where the “spread” makes more of a difference over time, and use the other guy as a pinch-hitter platoon guy off the bench, as he can then back up a number of players.
And if the issue is that they don’t think Bloomquist can handle SS for a few emergency innings, well, that’s not true, for one thing, and if so, that somehow makes his signing even more embarrassing than it already was for the Dayton Moore. If only he was smart enough to be embarrassed about it.
Let’s say he is 20 runs better/150 than the whichever other guy would play the position (and he almost certainly isn’t). Let’s say he gets in 100 “emergency” innings. well, if all stays the same, that’s a bit over a run he saves the team, while sucking up a roster spot that could have gone to a reliever, a bench player who is actually useful, or another awesome Dayton Moore acquisition.
I’ll say this: at least he’s only making the minimum. So, amazingly, this isn’t close to being as bad as many other of Dayton Moore’s moves.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 3, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I’ll say this: at least he’s only making the minimum.
For now.
by royalsreview on Apr 3, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're becoming a caricature of yourself
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that what we all strive for?
Or is that just me?
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 4, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess some of us do
I wouldn’t that that nonstop over-the-top snarky sarcasm would be the caricature one would shoot for, but whatever works I guess.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
offense is probably closer to -30
extend him now!
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 3, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
trade him at midseason to chicago
then sign him on the open market
better for everyone that way, TPJ gets to play for a ring
by royalsreview on Apr 3, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously, WTF?
I started this offseason with a fair amount of optimism. Then the offseason really started.
I really don’t care how Dayton Moore makes decisions. If he wants to just go back last seasons stats regressed to throwing chicken bones, that’s fine with me, if it works. I just have very little reason to think it will, given what they’re telling him.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 3, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only we had hired inanimate carbon rod this winter
Standing pat would have been much preferable to these shenanigans.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 4, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While I agree...
Wouldn’t standing pat include keeping TPJ, Gload and Gobble?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 4, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A Dream Team
GM:
And, of course, at manager:
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 4, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Play right field Guillen!
OR I WILL CUT YOU BITCH!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 4, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are two ways to evaluate defensive performance
Tools/scouts and stats. Both methods agree that TPJ is a good defensive middle IFer. Great? No. Good? Yes.
And isn’t it good to bring up the caveats and limitations of some stats? Don’t you do that too?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't objecting to the qualifications
so much as enjoying the irony of you simply trotting TPJ’s career bUZR without any qualification… normally, you’re on the other end of the stick
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 4, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was responding to what could only be an amateur scouting evaluation of TPJ
So, I responded with stats, instead of just trotting out my own amateur scouting. I suppose I should add caveats and limitations to every mention of fielding stats, but that gets a bit cumbersome. And, of course, amateur (and pro) scouting evaluations have their own inherent limitations.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those same scouts said Aviles couldn't play SS
I trust their judment
by AxDxMx on Apr 5, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if the vast majority of his usage is as a defensive replacement
Then isn’t the value of his defense much more important than the value of his hitting?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe about one run every 100 innings
if he’s one of the best defensive SSes in baseball (which he isn’t) replacing a pretty bad one. And of course, in that small sample, he could go on a real “hot streal.” Or an incredibly cold one.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 4, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're missing something
If his usage is primarily defensive and he gets his appearances in the field, but relatively few PA’s doesn’t that affect his value? If a player is good defensively and bad defensively, but most of his actual playing time is defensive (in the field) and not offensive (at the plate) then isn’t his defensive value much more important than his offensive value?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not terribly against him as a late inning replacement for teahen
but, on balance, the roster continues to get more and more redundant
what is the point of carrying TPJ and bloomy?
by royalsreview on Apr 4, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I guess the point is that they picture Bloomy as a potential backup all over the field. For instance, I think there’s a good chance that he’ll be the guy called on to be the late inning defensive replacement for Guillen. So if Bloomy might be used here, there and everywhere as a defensive replacement and make some starts, then they want a good defensive UI to backup Aviles and, by extension be a defensive replacement for second base (TPJ comes in and Aviles slides over to second).
I don’t think this was the right decision. If it were up to me, TPJ would have been waived by now. But I don’t now how much this hurts the team. My feeling is that it is very small, both because I think his role will be limited and because in a significant part of that role, he’ll be something of a minor asset.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 2:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Honest question
Is Bloomy a good enough outfielder to be considered a better defensive replacement than Maier?
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
by Warden11 on Apr 4, 2009 7:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Baseball America had Maier listed as best defensive outfielder a few years back
Before Duarte took over the mantle, that is. I’m not sure how good Bloomquist is, but Maier’s no slouch. I think I’d rather Maier be with the club than Bloomquist, now that Pena is on the team.
I don’t see the value in carrying both Bloomy and Pena.
by marbotty on Apr 4, 2009 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's exactly what I was wondering,
if the justification is defensive replacements, why not use Maier for the OF and Bloomy on the IF. Stash TPJ in Omaha and then if there is an injury, call him up.
Are the Royals that afraid that TPJ won’t make it through waivers?
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
by Warden11 on Apr 4, 2009 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think they fear him being snatched
The R’s would have been a lot better off keeping Shealy than Pena, I think. Or Pena over Bloomquist. Really, the moves the last few weeks doesn’t make sense.
Except for the Gload trade. I wonder who we get for him? I hope it’s not an all-glove middle infielder.
by marbotty on Apr 4, 2009 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fear = feared
doesn’t = don’t
get = got
somebody hire d_f’s proofreader for me
by marbotty on Apr 4, 2009 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they want a good defensive replacement in both the OF and the IF
Bloomy for the OF, TPJ for the IF. (this is not to say that Bloomy will only play in the OF, but this bench configuration allows for good defensive replacements for both). And I think the stats (for what they are worth) show that Bloomy is merely an ok defensive replacement in the IF.
Again, I’m not saying TPJ on the roster was the right move, but that is a reason to go with TPJ rather than Maier.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 4, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for some reason I just keep imagining a fat southern man with a plantation accent
sayin
“TPJ Now, TPJ Forevaaa”
no idea why
maybe too much vouvray
by royalsreview on Apr 3, 2009 11:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i think its the ryan man crush that bugs me. he’s just like frank white!
My stories a lot like yours only more interesting because it involves robots!
by AvilesRotY on Apr 3, 2009 11:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
to clarify: when ryan compared TPJ to frank white
My stories a lot like yours only more interesting because it involves robots!
by AvilesRotY on Apr 3, 2009 11:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
do you think TPJ may sub for teahen etc at 2nd late in games?
by royalsreview on Apr 3, 2009 11:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Chapter 1 of Dayton Moore's Guide to Building a Winner that people born since '85 haven' seen
How to “win now”
2: How one good decision leads to another, then another
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 3, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its all good fellas
he got lasik eye surgery so i dont think it would be hard for him to now hit .360
Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
by focs on Apr 4, 2009 12:04 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
this is better than anything i blabbed about above.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 4, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
.360/.365/.355
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 4, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wait, is this with or without the Seitzer adjustment?
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 4, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when the powers of LASIK surgery and Kevin Seitzer unite...
they create…Captain OBP!
My bet is on .480/.510/.520 with the Seitzer adjustment.
by DarthYoshi on Apr 4, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why I don't like it, and it has nothing to do with stats.
DM and TH need to effing admit that Pena is a horrible baseball player. They’re too stubborn to admit it, and that makes me mad.
Those jokers ran him out there for 200+ ABs last year without admitting that he sucks, and even now they won’t admit that he sucks. As d_f points out, he can’t pinch hit (or bunt), so we’re keeping a 9th inning SS/2B defensive replacement on the roster even though we already have Bloomquist for that role, only because DM and TH refuse to admit that Pena isn’t any good.
And of course the cumulative effect of DM’s multipe not-horrible-in-a-vacuum-but-disturbing-when-considering-in-the-context-of-several-other-dumb-moves is infuriating.
So now every time we have a 3-run lead in the 8th, Aviles will get yanked, even though his defense probably isn’t much worse than Pena’s, to justify DM/TH’s weird love for Pena. It’s unfair to Aviles, surely ticks him off, and saves us one run over 100 innings. Dumb.
by hippdoghipp on Apr 4, 2009 1:58 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
agree with a lot of this
its borderline baird esque, although with baird the obsession was with guys on other teams, like the three year kevin mench trade rumor
he’s a sub-replacement level player who’s already enjoyed a ton of playing time, and one that the royals paid a decent price for
by royalsreview on Apr 4, 2009 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he’s a sub-replacement level player
Since this is a statistical concept, I’m going to ask if you have the stats to back it up. First, over the course of his time with the Royals, he’s been above replacement level overall (not by a lot, but better than replacement level). Second, if he were to perform at the offensive and defensive level of his projections, he’ll still be above replacement level. I’m not saying he’s good. But we don’t need to act like he’s worse than he really is.
one that the royals paid a decent price for
Are you talking about Cordier? How many Tommy John operations does a player have to have before he doesn’t have much value? And what if the player had an additional major surgery in addition to that? Is that really a “decent price”?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
To be fair
Didn’t the Braves expose Cordier to waivers a while back? I was pretty sure we could have got him back if we wanted him, making TPJ free.
realistically speaking
by slayor on Apr 4, 2009 3:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know he was available in the Rule 5 draft
I believe for him that meant the minor league portion of the rule 5 draft. He may well have been waived at some point as well, I just don’t recall that. Regardless it appears that no other organization has shown any interest in him when he was free available talent. Doesn’t look like we paid much of anything for TPJ.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 3:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many Tommy John operations does a player have to have before he doesn’t have much value?
That’s a question for Gil Meche.
by marbotty on Apr 4, 2009 7:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, he's had none
I believe he’s had one major surgery (torn labrum). So far Cordier leads 3-to-1. And all of Cordier’s came before the “injury nexus.” When a pitcher has a bunch of major injuries before age 24, he’s about as likely to be an effective MLB pitcher (ever) as TPJ has of winning a batting title.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The reaction here to...
…TPJ making the roster seems to assume that the situation is like last year—-namely, that he’s starting. News flash: That’s not the situation. TPJ has been relegated to a late-inning defensive role. He’s not the starter, and he will likely average less than one AB per game (I’ll guess 0.5 AB per game over the season).
This is how TPJ should’ve made the roster and been used in 2008. GMDM and TH got it right in 2009. – TL
by timlacy on Apr 4, 2009 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's the principle of the thing!
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For me, it is.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
by Warden11 on Apr 5, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And principle is what is really important.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 6, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Until the first Aviles slump
Then Tony will get to play to “let Aviles clear his head”
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 4, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come back player of the year
Time for the Royals to win some hardware
by Royal from Queens on Apr 4, 2009 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What angers me the most
Is that I’ll have to listen to Ryan Lefebvre talk all summer about how improved Tony Pena is and how he should be playing every day.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 4, 2009 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Would you prefer...
…a continuous string of negativity from Mr. Lefebvre about how idiotic a move this is and that it justifies firing the whole front office and the manager? …Just asking. :)
by timlacy on Apr 4, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From Lefebrvre, that would be a welcome change
Actually, since his analysis is so pathetically bad, he should just limit himself to play-by-play and half-assed attempts at being funny. Or maybe just the play-by-play.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Apr 4, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Lefevbrerererere needs to stick to what he does best and let Split handle the color commentary.
(but, it is still worth saying again…Lefebvre > Davis)
by DarthYoshi on Apr 4, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the weird thing is
it seems like Split actually does a lot of the play by play. are they warring with each other for talking space?
The General Theory of Royaltivity
by kabrink on Apr 4, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
honestly, what might irritate me more
than TPJ making the roster is that our duo of first-base butchers no longer has a defensive caddy to bail them out in late innings.
TPJ is almost certainly the 25th man on the bench—I know folks here have said that DM and Hillman need to admit that TPJ sucks and move on, but if anything, I think that mentality of not admitting a potential mistake would lead to Willie Hustle getting more PT because we have to justify that $1.5 mil we’re paying him this year. TPJ, on the other hand, is still making the league minimum or close to it.
What I also think this means is that when the pitching staff expands to 12 (which it seems like it will), I think TPJ will be the guy to go.
by DarthYoshi on Apr 4, 2009 12:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Can't they use Gordon as the late-inning defensive replacement?
Then put Teahen at third. That seems like the most sensible solution. Still don’t get the love for TPJ by Hillman & DMGM. He and the Spork seem to be the same player(except of course, TPJ can only play ss)
by hunter s. royal on Apr 4, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably not the best idea
Teahen is, by all accounts, a well below average defensive 3b, and is even worse than Gordon. I don’t think Gordon has played enough first base yet for us to get any sort of meaningful insight off of any metrics there.
by DarthYoshi on Apr 4, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon is at least aveage at third
his performances at first are slimited, but got good reviews from both numbers and scouts
Would it kill the Royals to have him play 1-2 innings at SS in a game due to an “emergency” then call up Pena/Hernandez/whomever from Omaha the next day? Absolutely not.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 4, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spending money and roster space for emergency situations like this
is moronic on any team, but especially on one that needs multiple “miracles” to contend
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 4, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand
and am by no means trying to defend keeping TPJ on the roster. I’m just saying that I’m more irritated that TPJ’s roster spot came at the expense of Shealy rather than anything else.
by DarthYoshi on Apr 4, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I agree with that
Even if I just ran then numbers and Shealy’s worse than I thought, he’s still a win better than TPJ
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 4, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I admit, this isn't the worst move evah
And there is some overreacting to the move. TPJ is a fine reserve I suppose. I think the response however is the result of a culmination of groan-inducing moves the last few months. None of which, in isolation, is all that bad, but when combined together make for one huge missed opportunity. The right moves this winter could have put us firmly in contention. Dayton instead took a lot of slightly wrong moves.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 4, 2009 4:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ON the other hand
it’s hard to see how a -1 WAR player fits on any roster
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 4, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he fits in perfectly
With what the Indians were trying to do in the plot of “Major League.”
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Apr 4, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But back to Shealy
We had this whole conversation back when Jacobs was signed, justifying the signing by saying something to the effect of ‘well if he’s used correctly it’s not a bad signing’… ‘Correcly’ meant as the left-handed half of platoon with Shealy. Even if you don’t have a strict platoon and give Jacobs the majority of the at-bats, it’s still nice (I might even argue important) to have a hedge against Jacobs in case he struggles.
Ok let’s assume for a second Kila is now the hedge against Jacobs. Fine.
Still, doesn’t Shealy have more trade value than TPJ? And don’t we already have a TPJ clone on the bench (Willie may not have his arm, but his supposed strength is defense, we’re assuming he’ll be used as a defensive replacement, and he actually hits a tiny bit).
I just don’t see how it makes sense, when you consider Willie.
I'm about to change my username to DannyDuffyfan
by jackie ballgame on Apr 4, 2009 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't see how it makes sense at all, I'm fuming right now
apologies for the uber-sarcastic fan post, I’m so mad
I'm about to change my username to DannyDuffyfan
by jackie ballgame on Apr 4, 2009 4:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
it's he internet, do what you want
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Apr 4, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The issue, to me,
is not that TPJ made a major league roster, but rather that in this day and age, with benches uniformly thin everywhere (AL teams generally have 4 bench players, 1 of whom is the backup catcher), I’m just not sure ANY team should carry such a one dimensional player.
Look, your team can go one of two ways – you have a relatively set lineup, with 1 or 2 guys in there for mostly their defense. In this scenario, you should set up your bench with very good pinch hitters and hit for the defensive guys when you are behind. The 2nd scenario is a relatively set lineup with no real weak hitters, in which case you should set up your bench with defensive replacements and use them when you are ahead.
Bottom line – since Moore views his ideal team as being pitching/defense 1st, and enough offense to get by, he is employing the 2nd methodology.
In a way, this is all the fault of Teahen’s hot spring, which has set off a cascading effect. Bloomquist seems to be the 4th OF now, which necessitated (in the Royals minds) another utility infielder on the roster (Pena). I guess we can give Callaspo some blame for failing to seize the 2nd base job. Don’t get me wrong – I have zero problem with Teahen – just was sorta thinking he could have been just as valuable team-wise as a 4 postion super utility guy, and still get 450 ABs or so in case this spring wasn’t a mirage.
Now, for the sobering news – his lineup of everyday players hasn’t quite reached “…with no real weak hitters” status yet.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
by loyal2sdad on Apr 6, 2009 2:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- How a Chicago guy learned to love Albert Pujols of St. Louis
- Bud's All-Star tie tops our non-steroid controversies of decade
- D12: Revisiting the Twins decision of Mauer over Prior (again)
- After locking up of AL MVP, it's time for Twins to lock up Mauer
- November means R&R for Raiders fan CC Sabathia and others
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
