Behind Hillman & Farnsworth, the Royals Blow it on Opening Day
by Freneau on Apr 7, 2009 5:00 PM EDT
in Kansas City Royals News
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PrintBad decisions have a way of compounding. You sign Jose Guillen for all the wrong reasons, and a year later you're playing Mark Teahen at second base. You sign Horacio Ramirez and Sidney Ponson for depth, a comforting, though abstract concept, and a suddenly they're your #4 and #5 starters. Less comforting. You realize Ross Gload isn't the answer, so you decide you have to have Mike Jacobs. And on and on.
You sign Kyle Farnsworth to the worst contract of the winter (non-Ibanez division) and then, amazingly, you end up announcing that he'll be in the setup role over Juan Cruz, a demonstrably better pitcher.
So this one is a team effort.
Half of the "credit" goes to Dayton, and half to Hillman. Hillman, frankly, has shown that he can't be trusted to just do the generic, easy, thing. To be your standard issue blah twenty first century Manager Bot. Last year, we spent a month trying to be the '82 Cardinals because... because... well, something about Japan. Last year, we saw an extra month of TPJ's personal re-creation of the Deadball Era for way too long. Alex Gordon is seemingly the #7 hitter for life because he's more "comfortable" there. I mean, just look at Gordon, he looks like a guy with confidence problems, doesn't he? As much as a I rag on Hillman, even I wasn't making jokes about Farnsworth being the eighth inning guy after Cruz came in. I didn't want to kill my ethos by being too extreme. It's just a completely baffling decision. Honestly, it's akin to say, Bannister being named the #2 starter.
Maybe, if this game was played yesterday, we might have seen Soria in the eighth, another perfectly reasonable idea that was washed away by the bizarre Farnsworth move. Maybe Soria isn't physically ready for that. I don't know. All that matters is that it didn't happen. I'm also not sure why Meche didn't pitch the eighth himself. He was at, what? 91 pitches? Again, as with Soria, maybe physically, Meche isn't stretched out enough yet to do so. We're still left with why Cruz didn't start the inning and why he didn't finish it.
Bringing in Kyle Farnsworth was the wrong decision and it killed an otherwise wonderful day at the Cell.
Look, its just one game. Last year the Royals started 3-0 and it meant nothing. Two years ago the Royals punked the Red Sox on Opening Day, and it really meant nothing. The important thing is that the leadership team realizes, and quickly, that the bullpen alignment needs to change. And fast.
I wouldn't advise holding your breath.
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Yeah
if the right field fountain section is the sign section.. the first guy with an anti-Kyle sign will probably get his ass kicked by Farnsworth
This is just the tip of the iceberg.
We didn’t even see TPJ or Willie “1 XBH in ’08” Ballgame!
Banny being Banny.
lol sad but true
If Greinke can’t get us a win tomorrow, this could be a long and ugly start to the season
realistically speaking
another trey fuckup...
we’re up by 1 run in the 8th inning…isnt that the ideal time to have tpj at short, bloomy at 2nd and teahen in right?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 7, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
That won't keep the ball in the park if
Farnsy is on the mound. They may as well not play a defense.
WTF, self?
it didnt cost us today...
but if we’re not gonna use those guys for what they’re good for, why not sign dallas mcpherson and have a power bat off the bench? Why not have a LOOGY?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 7, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
BTW
Over all of today’s game threads, we did go over 2,000 comments. Silver lining?
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel! - Homer Simpson
by aHorseWithNoName on Apr 7, 2009 5:05 PM EDT reply actions
that' without context
we need a Leverage Index for game thread comments
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Just curious,
but how exactly is that a silver lining to the groin kick we just got?
Don't Stop Believing!
Yeah, I know
I was just looking for something positive, and that’s all I got right now (beyond Meche’s performance).
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel! - Homer Simpson
by aHorseWithNoName on Apr 7, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
My recreation
(Scene) Right before the bottom of the eighth
Trey: So Meche you feel like one more inning?
Meche: Well, I’m only at 91 pitches and in a groove and with a one-run lead. You know what to do.
Trey: (nodding head) Yep. Hey Farnsworth!!!
by sal fasano on Apr 7, 2009 5:07 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
"You have a lefty in the bullpen was there ever any thought there..."
‘Well, I just got Cruz and Mahay, got the adrenaline flowing in case something crazy happened and Farnsworth wasn’t ready to throw strikes, as soon as he struck Quentin out, I was going to leave him in…. It was just a matter of location"
What the fuck?
realistically speaking
Oh awesome
We get instant AP photos to embed in your posts now? That’s pretty cool
Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!
"A little more timely hittin', a little better hitting on one pitch..."
Won’t even admit t hat putting Farnsworth in was a mistake, he sounded PLEASED WITH WHAT HE SAW
realistically speaking
*location on one pitch
-trey hillman
realistically speaking
It's more like....
the location of the pitcher….as in – he shouldn’t have been in the game to even throw that pitch!
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel! - Homer Simpson
by aHorseWithNoName on Apr 7, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps it was
the location of one Farnsworth? Maybe that’s what Hillman meant?
Well, look at from his perpective.
A bunt hit, and a bloop hit, a pop up and a strike out.
To him, it does look like a good decision.
he must’ve missed the few hanging sliders that the White Sox didn’t hit though
Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!
I hate that "one bad pitch" BS
When you’re a set up man, you can’t….throw…..one….bad….pitch
realistically speaking
Yeah, especially since HR are what he does
Hillman should have been happy with the two outs, and gotten another pitcher up there
Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!
Does Hillman even look at HR/9 rates for his relievers?
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 7, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
i was overall happy with the offense...
we left too many guys on base.. that cant be denied but it seemed like every at-bat we were at a 3 Ball count
Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
Ya I have no probs with the offense
It’s not like they are gonna hit .000 with runners in scoring position all year.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
agree
the only thing to complain about is that they were “clutch” enough, which as we all know
is a legit thing to complain about<code>
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
_weren't_
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
with your post at the top about Farnsworth. But, the more frustrating thing for me was how many freaking stranded runners we produced. It seemed like this happened a LOT last year also. So, while it is a small data point this year, it is also the continuation of last year’s trend. It does worry me.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
I think this is what people mean when they say...
…that the game has “slowed down” as a way to indicate that the player/manager has fully adjusted to the big leagues. For Hillman, the MLB game has yet to “slow down.” It’s painful.
Painful gut shot today
no excuse not to walk away with a win. This kind of thing spreads like a cancer on a team. The only thing that can save this team this year is if we hit like we did in spring training. And oh yeah never playing Farnsworth unless every other pitcher we have on the team or in the minors becomes double amputees.
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Apr 7, 2009 5:14 PM EDT reply actions
should have been a great day
excellent start for Meche (if in an uncharacteristic manner), Gordon blast off of a left. Guillen AND Aviles taking walks int he same game. Teahen getting on base. DDJ throwing out (admittedly painfully slow) baserunners…
This is why you use your ace reliever with a 1 run lead and two innings left.
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Best part is KC media didn't even ask him
Why Farnsworth when his numbers are so much worse than Juan Cruz.. Didn’t, even, ask.
realistically speaking
Yes
and for Keitzman to rale on it for 2 days and when time comes to ask Hillman about it, he won’t.
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Apr 7, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
She actually meets me at my place
when she goes for “internal power stretching” yoga classes
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Apr 7, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
depends. How can you connect it to the 76 Reds?
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Even Buck O'Neil
would have dropped an F-bomb in front of little kids if he’d been in the stands.
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Farny and
Joe Morgan both signed endorsement deals with Snuggie, Inc.
I thought Rec-Specs still had Farnsworth...
on an exclusive deal.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 7, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
on the good side
if they Royals are ever in a situation where they have to trade Meche, I’m pretty sure he won’t make a stink
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really feel bad for him
no one remembers this sort of start
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Farnsworth...
got a strikeout, gave up a HR and fell behind nearly every hitter. Yep, pretty predictable. But he did throw really hard and keep his strikeout ratio at a batter an inning. That’s what counts.
that seems to have "running joke" written all over it.
“Farnsy gave up the big fly, but 2 k’s/ 1ip? Nobody wants to stand in against that”
Kyle Farnsworthless
we all knew it, but now it’s solidified.
The Alex Gordon era - www.number4thesmirk.com
by CollininCalifornia on Apr 7, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions
He is what we thought he was!!! - Denny Green
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel! - Homer Simpson
by aHorseWithNoName on Apr 7, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
And he let the Sox off the hook!!
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 7, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
so we always hear from the old school types that losing a game late = like a million losses
and thus Soria cannot start
I wonder what the conversion factor is for 2 outs in the 8th
The answer is not...
…to move Soria here, but to have used Cruz correctly. …It’s only ONE game. – TL
Guy on Kietzman's show just made a great point.
With the back end of the rotation so awful, we have to win every good start from Meche and Greinke. This is so true.
realistically speaking
And Davies, for that matter
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 7, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
true
but where we get the odd loss that Meche should have won, we’ll get the odd win that Ponson should have lost. It equals out
*You think I'm good* "You know, that Farnsworth is pretty good." *You will give me 9 million dollars* "So, Farnsy, how does $9 million sound?"
You hope it evens out
But if we’re not gonna suck, we can’t lose these games, period
realistically speaking
Zero percent chance that Ponson wins anything
he’s starting against the freakin Yankees. Get your flack jackets on boys, Sid the Kid is gonna get shelled.
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Apr 7, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Our only hope...
is if CC pitches too.
Are you telling me Jesus Christ cant hit a curve ball?
by averagegatsby on Apr 7, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Or Ponson and Ho Ram
pull a “opps I punched the wall, and punched my way out of the lineup”.
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Apr 7, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't worry
we’re always the team that gets pitchers out of their funks
Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!
dumb joke alert
the way that SBNation shortens the “filename” title of this post seems appropriate
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 5:24 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Excellent call
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 7, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
?
I dont see it.
Are you telling me Jesus Christ cant hit a curve ball?
by averagegatsby on Apr 7, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
behind-farnsworth-the-royals-blow
KCsince88 - You'd LOVE Todd Reesing, then.
DolfinPhan - Doug Flutie of the future. Mark my words.
Book it!
This game is why I'm mad about Pena making the roster.
Most people argued hey, relax, it’s not like he’s going to play that much.
I don’t trust Hillman to not run TPJ out there once a week and take 100+ ABs from Aviles.
Remember, Farnsworth is just going to be the set-up to the set-up guy, and Gload wasn’t supposed to be our starting 1B last year.
Hillman might be a dope, but GMDM shouldn’t be an enabler.
he better watch it
will he be banned from the clubhouse?
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
From Rob Neyer
Last year, Kyle Farnsworth gave up 15 home runs in 60 innings. In his career, Farnsworth has allowed a .441 slugging percentage to left-handed hitters.
Jim Thome is a left-handed hitter with 541 career home runs.
Over the past three seasons, Chicago’s U.S. Cellular Field has been the most homer-prone ballpark in the American League, both generally and for left-handed hitters specifically.
With two outs in the bottom of the eighth inning and two White Sox on base, the Royals held a 2-1 lead. Thome was coming up. If there’s a single pitcher in the majors who shouldn’t be facing Thome in that situation, it just might be Farnsworth.
Yet, face him he did. Threw Thome a fastball down the middle, he did. Gave up a long, three-run, (eventually) game-losing home run, he also did.
And Royals manager Trey Hillman? He sat on his hands and watched it happen. That’s what he did.
by djk royal on Apr 7, 2009 5:27 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
so mad he's writing like yoda!
where tpj happens.
by blue bandwagon on Apr 7, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Me too
but I have to agree with Neyer here.
And more to the point
Hillman sat on his hands and watched it happen at the hands of the guy who’s hit more homers against the Royals than any other player in the history of baseball, a guy who eats fastballs for breakfast.
I mean, seriously. Letting Farnsworth pitch to Thome in that situation was trying to put out a forest fire with gasoline.
This space for rent.
As Soon As
I heard Farnsweorth v Thome, I knew the outcome. This is dumbassery of the highest order.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Apr 8, 2009 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions
It was actually thigh high and away.... not down the middle...
If Neyer writes generalizations like that, his credibility is going to drop below what it already is….
Why didn’t he talk about pitch sequence? It’s as much Olivo’s fault on pitch sequence…. but that flies under the radar… and what about all the guys we left on base?
Everyone's recruits look better than ours.
Meche gave us 7 strong
and we have the best closer in the game
and Treyball couldn’t handle the situation
I’d hate to see a game where Ho-Ram leaves after 5
I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me
what really sucks about this
is if the Royals go .500 this year, Hillman doesn’t go anywhere. He probably doesn’t go anywhere regardless. Even if we were to somehow eventually make the playoffs, do you want Hillman making decisions in a playoff game? It sort of deflates your hope for even the long term future of this team
*You think I'm good* "You know, that Farnsworth is pretty good." *You will give me 9 million dollars* "So, Farnsy, how does $9 million sound?"
Hillman is GMDM's guy
realistically speaking
by slayor on Apr 7, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the truth is
this is a typical screw up.
The main problem with Farnsworth isn’t with Hillman, honestly. It’s Dayton Moore. No, I’m not saying he should be fired, but the payroll, and, heck, his position in the organization means that if he’s smart enough to see Farnsworth isn’t good, he should be able to tell Hillman not to use him in these sorts of situations. If Moore does t think Farnsworth is good enough to be the #2 reliever, then Royals fans better get used to a lot of pain and suffering of the Guillen-Farnsworth variety.
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I've thought about this issue a lot
Whether or not General managers should have the power to direct managers how and when to use players. Regardless of what should happen, I don’t think very many GM’s try to interfere with what happens on the field. It’s the equivalent of having your boss watching over your shoulder at work, and while that’s certainly justified in Hillman’s case, I think it’s an unwritten rule in baseball that the GM doesn’t tinker. But I’ve always wanted to know if there’s friction between some GM’s and managers over on-field decisions (beyond, you know, the GM just firing the manager)
*You think I'm good* "You know, that Farnsworth is pretty good." *You will give me 9 million dollars* "So, Farnsy, how does $9 million sound?"
by jackie ballgame on Apr 7, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Read Moneyball
along with plenty of good stuff, one of things it address is how Billy Beane refuses to defer to his manager…he compares to a CEO deferring to middle-management. He doesn’t give play-by-play orders to his manager, but he does before and after games say that “this reliever should be used” or “this guy needs more/less at bats”
by RoyalsFanInBillings on Apr 7, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong.
GMs tinker all the time. They add and subtract from your options. DM can simply subtract from TH’s options. That’s how GMs tinker. Still, today’s decision was TH’s, not DM’s. TH could’ve used Cruz but didn’t. Apparently TH hoped that Tightpants’ experience would trump Cruz’s inexperience with the AL. TH forgot that 96 mph fastballs trump league inexperience and the slow bat of an old-timer (i.e. Thome). – TL
I think there is an unwritten rule that says
Managers always play guys that are paid the most, even if they are proven to be terrible. I don’t know if they are instructed to do so, but this almost always happens.
That’s why I guarantee Bloomy will get an inordinate amount of at bats, Guillen won’t ever be bumped from the starting lineup, Jacobs will never yield first base to Butler (or Shealy), and Farnsworth will continue to log a bunch of innings in the set up role.
On the bright side,
I decided at the last minute to stay at work rather than burn a few hours of annual leave to watch this fiasco.
So there’s that.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=4029105
I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me
going to see this in my sleep
realistically speaking
man, that pitch was right down the middle
I guess Trey really hasn’t learned about the lefty/lefty thing after all
maybe that’s why they cut Gobble, it was hurting his head…
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
It was 2-1 when Farnsworth came in...
I turned to my wife and said I was leaving and when I came back it would be 4-2 for the White Sox. I had a bad feeling. Did Mahay blow out his arm or something and I missed it? Thome has made an entire career mashing straight fastballs from right hand pitching. Is it wrong to hope for a torn rotator cuff or at least a strained oblique?
funny...my bartender said the same thing....
when he went out to smoke a cig before the inning…now he made it back before the actual homer…but he called it
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 7, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Can anyone start a website
if this season completely goes into the tank early?
something like fireFarnsworth.com. HookHillman.org or something like that?
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Apr 7, 2009 5:36 PM EDT reply actions
It's ok for a start guys....
I understand the anger but let’s look on the bright side… Gordon… Meche…. Let’s go from there.
Everyone's recruits look better than ours.
by 306008 on Apr 7, 2009 6:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeha, but it's not going to get any easier from here.
realistically speaking
bright side - I have Gordon and Jenks on my fantasy team....
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
+1
it’s just 1 game. The upper management will figure out that Farny has no business being the setup man relatively soon.
Ummm...
How long have you been a Royals fan? And how long have you been following Dayton Moore?
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 7, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
My (sarcastic) point being...
that the Royals’ management does not have a long and illustrious history of immediately correcting obvious mistakes.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 8, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
this is "new" management...
Trey’s learning like everyone else… he’s learning his players… that’s to be expected in the early weeks…
Everyone's recruits look better than ours.
What is there to learn...
about Farnsworth’s history that you couldn’t figure out in five minutes (or less) in just looking over his stats/scouting report? And he better have learned by now what kind of pitcher is more likely to get a heavy hitter in his own division (Thome) out.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 8, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
It's like Jason Grimsley never left
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
by cmkeller on Apr 7, 2009 6:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
(wiping a tear from my eye)
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
We knew it was coming
here is a link to my initial comment on the Farnsworth signing Like those other guys, he will get behind and groove one. I wish his first one was not on opening day. This sucks!
And prophets are always welcome everywhere except their home town.
Everyone's recruits look better than ours.
Except that prophets
are generally considerred to have some knowledge not available to the general populace. this result was easily predicable by anyone with a reasonable knowledge of the situation.
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Apr 8, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Farnsworth
When he came into the game in the 8th I threw up in my cube. My co-workers were a little upset
Mama said there be days like these
just sucks that it was the first one.
Leaving 9 runners on base through the first 5 innings did not help.
Farnsworth throws heat and he was throwing sliders to Wise?
Once he struck out Quentin, I too would have brought in Soria to face Thome
We gotta come back strong tomorrow
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy."
- Dodgers, Astros, Brewers, A's & Angels pitcher Don Sutton
by CubFreak on Apr 7, 2009 9:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yep, we'll just have...
…to come back tomorrow. And people have to believe that TH isn’t stupid. His confidence in Tightpants is now shaken, and we’ll probably see a week of Cruz aftet TH plays Tightpants tomorrow to make Tightpants feel better. – TL
I have some things to say about this...
I spent my entire day working in the desert in SoCal, in the wind, with rattlesnakes. I killed an entire phone battery on “refreshing” the score every 15 seconds on the Royals Mobile website. And I was happy about it, all was right with the world. Even though it was 2-1, I felt good about their showing (granted, I was limited in the details I got). Meche looked like he was going strong, pitching in and out of jams. Jakobs got hit by a pitch to get on base after failing to score earlier. Like I said, all is right with the world. And then I go to the “little biologists room” and when I come back, Turd Ferguson is pitching. Now I generally reserve that names for friends, co-workers, family members who just happen to be a little slow at the time. But for Farnsworth, I will make an exception today.
It was brutal. I was very disappointed…
by biancalana is my buddy on Apr 7, 2009 9:18 PM EDT reply actions
Is it really that hard?
Seriously folks, is it that hard to manage a major league baseball team?
by Royal from Queens on Apr 7, 2009 9:51 PM EDT reply actions
i wish some owner would just get really pissed one time...
and say ‘fuck it’…im hiring a really smart guy and he’s gonna sit there in the dugout with spreadsheets with lots of numbers and manage like that….its obvious that treys ‘feel for the game’ doesnt work
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 7, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I like how it's an either-or proposition
You don’t need both eyes and a brain, just one of them :D
No its not hard strategy wise...
they have every possible stat at hand (such as the one that says that Farnsworth’s ERA at the Cell is over 9.0 for his career). While there may be a few exceptions, number don’t lie. After today I’m hoping they make Cruz the set up guy and Farnsworth goes to being the 6th or 7th inning guy. Maybe he will pull a Bale and punch the wall. Basic strategy usually dictates what you should do. Hunches are for suckers. This is a classic case of the team being in position to win and the manager robbing them of the chance to do so. They know more about the game than we do (assumption on my part) but if past history is an indicator Farnsworth should be nowhere near the mound after the 7th inning. Every memory I have of him is giving up runs.
you dont remember him bodyslamming Affeldt?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 7, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes I do remember the fights
Giving up runs and bodyslamming slightly more effective relievers is no way to go thru life.
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 8, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Side note....
the Mariners are batting Endy Chavez leadoff tonite after batting Mike Sweeney 3rd
TPJ...you're dead to me
yikes
note to the Mariners: even if a guy is really, really good at defense, so good that he’s worth playing, that doesn’t mean it carries over to his offense. I’m sure there is someone in that big stats department of yours that can explain it.
[Word to the wise: I’m writing about Endy, not Sweeney]
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
naturally, I just looked and
Endy has three hits, w runs, two RBI, and a steal
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary to Driveline Mechanics and elsewhere since sometime in 2008.
by Matt Klaassen on Apr 7, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
that doesnt even matter....
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 7, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Every Dog Has
It’s day.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Apr 8, 2009 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=270402107
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Kyle Farnsworth's mere existence makes me sad
But leave it to RR to turn it into a major crisis of leadership that is destroying the franchise.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 7, 2009 11:54 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
its a surefire sign that our manager is still awful...
is it not?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
"Still awful"
No, Hillman is not awful. He’s a very average manager. Picking the wrong guy to pitch in the 8th is a common mistake. Hillman is a standard, traditional, orthodox, run-of-the-mill manager. If the Royals were managed by just about any other manager in MLB, you and I would be able to easily find fault with them as well.
It was a mistake. He gets the blame for making that mistake. That mistake does not make him an awful manager.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
when the mistakes are as common as they are....
i think it does. In fact, I think his handling of Gobble last year by itself makes him a pretty terrible manager.
So, he doesnt think outside of the box. Not ideal, but not terrible. But, like I said somewhere else, he cannot even think correctly inside the box. A LOOGY is a pretty simple thing. Farnsworth vs. Cruz is a pretty simple thing. If this was game 1 of season 1, I’d chalk it up to nerves or inexperience, but theres no place for that any longer
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Fire Hillman!
And then hire some untraditional managerial candidate, like…………?
Or maybe this is just an overreaction to losing the season opener.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Jonny Ballgame from bumfuck Redneckville
Could have realized that Cruz needed to be pitching that 8th inning, and not Farnsworth. Or even Mahay, or even Soria. It’s not one bad decision, it’s a symptom of an epidemic of bad decisions, a one game insight into the very confused and misguided mind of Trey Hillman. You should have heard his post game, he didn’t even sound like he would think twice about doing the whole thing over again. He wouldn’t even really admit that Farnsworth pitched poorly.
He doesn’t get it. He learned nothing.
realistically speaking
An epidemic of bad decisions?
And you’re not overreacting? Ok then.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Did you watch last season?
realistically speaking
Yes
And he had a mix of good, bad and neutral decisions…like every other manager in baseball. Why aren’t you overreacting to the bad decisions of other managers? Because you aren’t a fan of their teams.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Because this is a Royals blog?
realistically speaking
even non royals fans....
on minorleagueball.com are pointing out how outrageousthis is
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Then I guess that settles the issue
:)
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
If you say that we're overreacting b/c were fans....
and nonfans are doing the same b/c it was such a colossally terrible decision, then yeah, I’d say that helps make my point.
Rany, who I know you respect as a baseball analsyt, even though he uses some outdated stats, ,has come to the same conclusion. I have a feeling Posnanski will do the same. Hopefully it wont take moore too long to jump on board
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Did Rany say it was a stupid mistake or that Hillman is an awful manager?
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you're arguing that Hillman isn't an awful manager
Maybe not, maybe he’s just bad, or mediocre. But the Royals can’t afford to lose games because of a bad, or mediocre manager. We have to win every game possible. Therefore, Trey Hillman must go if he is going to continue to manage in this way.
realistically speaking
He said it was another in a very long line of stupid mistakes...
and that he’s not going to excuse them anymore….
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Could you do me a favor
and remind me of his good decisions last year?
Note that when I ask this, I consider things like “deciding he wasn’t going to trust Yabuta or Tomko anymore” to be at best “neutral” decisions.
Near as I can recall, he made one good decision all season, and that was letting Pena pitch the ninth inning of The Gobble Game. Seriously.
This space for rent.
I'll give you some off the top of my head
1. Making Aviles the starting SS and keeping him there.
2. Elevating Ramon Ramirez to primary setup man.
3. Demoting Nunez to 7th inning duty when it became clear he was inferior to R. Ramirez.
4. Using Callaspo as the regular, everyday starting second baseman when he came off the DL/rehab.
5. Not overusing his pitchers or exposing them to excessive pitch counts. (this is a really big one)
6. Moving Teahen from LF to RF.
7. Gave Ryan Shealy a lot of playing time in his September call up.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 3:53 AM EDT up reply actions
here's a NYRoyal-style rejoinder
1. Making Aviles the starting SS and keeping him there.
Does replacing arguably one of the worst SS ever to grace a Royal uniform qualify as a good decision? Technically it does, but it’s also sort of a no-brainer, as there were very few shortstops in the major leagues that wouldn’t have qualified as an upgrade over Pena last season. Aviles made his debut on May 29, when Pena was hitting .155/.176/.195 at the time, so it shouldn’t have been too difficult a decision. I think more damning is that Pena still logged over 80 at bats after that point.
2. Elevating Ramon Ramirez to primary setup man.
3. Demoting Nunez to 7th inning duty when it became clear he was inferior to R. Ramirez.
Two and three are pretty similar, I think. The bullpen was very good last year, and I agree that Hillman should get credit for #2. But, really, unless he put Gobble or Peralta in the set up role, he wouldn’t have messed up, as almost all of the relievers performed reasonably well. Still, Ramirez was a good choice.
- This is debatable — Nunez allowed runners in 7 of his 45 appearances (15.5%), Ramirez 13 in 71 (18%). Regardless, it’s irrelevant – both would have made capable set up men.
4. Using Callaspo as the regular, everyday starting second baseman when he came off the DL/rehab.
I agree that it was good that Callaspo got playing time, as it would help him develop. But why wasn’t he playing before the rehab stint? On the season, Callaspo still ended up with one fewer at bat than Pena and 8 fewer starts, despite the fact that Pena lost the regular job in June. Granted, Callaspo was out 48 games, but he still would have had the opportunity to start 100 games. He only started 53. You can’ t credit Hillman for starting him for those 53 games without condemning him for not starting him for the other 47.
5. Not overusing his pitchers or exposing them to excessive pitch counts. (this is a really big one)
This is huge, and a big credit to Hillman. So, really, while I think Hillman is poor tactical and strategic manager, this is the one area where if he fails it really can hurt the team. It’s one thing if you bring in the wrong reliever and lose a game as a result, and another thing if you leave Greinke in too long and it ends his career.
The question is whether the idea of monitoring pitch counts is now mainstream enough that every manager outside of Dusty Baker is now doing it. If so, then this isn’t really a positive for Hillman — it’s expected. If this is the new norm, then saying Hillman made a good decision because he did this would be akin to saying Hillman made a good decision because he didn’t bash Billy Butler over the head with a shovel, or he made a good decision because he didn’t force his pitchers to eat a tub of spaghetti prior to heading to the mound.
6. Moving Teahen from LF to RF.
Wasn’t Teahen in LF because Hillman bowed to Guillen in the first place? This is pretty minimal, anyway.
7. Gave Ryan Shealy a lot of playing time in his September call up.
Good, again, but consider this: Shealy 20 games started. Gload 102 games started.
You can’t really fault Hillman for not being able to play Shealy more — that was Dayton’s fault for not bringing him up sooner. You can fault him, however, for creatively finding a way to insert Gload into the starting lineup for 2/3rds of the season.
by marbotty on Apr 8, 2009 6:25 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Oh, you are KIDDDING me.
1) You mean the Mike Aviles about which he said, after his first appearance, “That Aviles thing just didn’t work out,” promptly benching him and letting him suck for another week? THAT decision? That the one you mean?
No, that move is at best neutral, and can actually be considered bad when taken in full context.
2/3) The manager gets credit for having two somewhat similarly talented pitchers (both of whom he had already been using in similar situations anyway) and giving one of them the other’s job during an injury stint? Really? Neutral at best overall, and while continuing to rely on RR after Nunez’ injury issues was the right thing to do, it wasn’t exactly genius either. He stayed with his current comfort level.
4) Because when Grudz was lost for the season, the roster contained several other viable candidates for the 2B job? Hillman did not “decide” to play Callaspo, unless by “decide” you mean “chose him over the guy who can’t hit a buck seventy-five.”
5) Current orthodoxy, practiced by damn near everyone not named Dusty.
6) That wasn’t a “decision,” that was a “vacillation.”
7) For all the good that did, especially since there was someone else he perhaps should have given even more playing time to and didn’t. But I guess I’ll accept that as “good.”
One out of seven. Whee. That brings us to two moves throughout the season I can think of which are legitimately good, and Hillman had games where he had two failed decisions which were demonstrably the wrong move.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Apr 8, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hillman and pitch counts
So no one remembers the skewering Hillman took when he let Greinke throw 107 pitches last year?
Good times.
my 2 cents
I would add to NYR’s list that Hillman did slowly but finally realize that his overagressive baserunning approach was not working. I don’t recall how long we had to live with that and I think it took him too long to slow it down, but he did.
However, like marbotty and jonfmorse, I have to strenuously subtract number 1 from that list. Some of this is on DM for not bringing Aviles up much sooner. However, Hillman handled it horribly when Aviles finally arrived. Perhaps you can write it off as just an off hand comment that he said “the Aviles thing just didn’t work out”. But, I think he totally believed it when he said that. It seemed to me he was clearly bought into the “he doesn’t have the right body” theory and his mind wasn’t going to be changed no matter what. Aviles’ performance paired with TPJ incompetence finally forced his hand. What’s more, DMTH are both still totally bought into that because all during offseason we heard them utter how many times, that Aviles needs to be moved to 2B. To this day, they barely believe he belongs on the team and especially not at SS. NO, Hillman did nothing smart about Aviles.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
The best thing about a Hillman used bullpen. He really believes in his players.
Hillman’s style of using relievers is that he believes in his pitchers abiltities to get anyone out. The better you are at this, the later that you pitch in games. You get the ball at the beginning of the inning and you pitch the whole inning unless you give up a bunch of runs and/or are totally wild and ineffective.
Yes, there are some negatives to this approach because he does not utilize lefty/lefty matchups as so forth. LOOGY’s are doomed.
The positive is that pitchers know what is expected of them and that they will be given greater opportunity the better they pitch and that if they pitch poorly they will not see as much time. It is very orderly and predictable and over the course of a season will let the cream rise to the top.
Thinking that he should start the season with Farnsworth over Cruz is typical Hillman wanting the players that he has taken a shine to succeed. Look at Nomo, Yabuta, Gload, TPJ… they were played as much as they were because Hillman believed in them, as opposed to what the stat sheet said. That is why Teahen is starting at second, it is a different approach then most managers, he is managing and believing in his players, not stats.
The best thing about the bullpen usage is the consistancy of knowing what you have to do to pitch sucessfully for Hillman, get through your inning of work and pass the ball to the next guy. He may play his favorites first, but if they don’t get the job done, he does make the change and goes with the performer.
Go Royals!
what if Cruz had given up that home run?
Would it be different?
Everyone's recruits look better than ours.
Absolutely
Or Meche. Or Mahay. Or Soria. If it had happened with any one of those pitchers, then Hillman would probably not be facing much, if any, criticism. Any one of those moves would have been generally considered to be wiser than putting and/or leaving Farnsworth in to face Thome.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 8, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
right, because they would be wiser
you might be able to kill an elephant with a pistol if you hit him just right, and you might not be able to kill him with an elephant gun every time, but what would you rather take your chances with?
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Apr 8, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes
Then it would have been just another long year of God hating the Royals rather than giving us an actual person to focus the hate on today rather than providence.
Fate doesn’t need any help screwing us over so why help it.
Or find a traditional manager that isnt a dumbfuck....
This isnt an overreaction to the loss. Its a reaction to obvious ineptitude by our manager
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
So every other manager would have brought in Cruz or Soria? You’re living in a dreamworld. But that’s fine. Dreamworlds are fun.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Find me one instance where a manger went with his likely, 5th best option....
when he had his entire BP, and a pretty good one at that, at his disposal
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay, it's opening day, you have a one run lead in the 8th inning.
Your options are:
Juan Cruz
Kyle Farnsworth
I would be wlling to bet serious, serious money that in a poll of all managers, baseball wide, 95% would pick Juan Cruz in that situation. I think it’s what is referred to as a no brainer.
realistically speaking
You'd be disappointed with the result
That’s not to say it was not a mistake.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think I would be disappointed...
This isn’t some marginal thing, even their ERA’s are vastly different. Everybody knows Farnsworth got shelled in NY, his reputation isn’t even that great. I don’t see it.
realistically speaking
its different to fail by doing the right things....
its another thing entirely to fail in the way that trey did today and for much of last season
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
this was the perfect opportunity
for Hillman to try out his new “fireman” philosophy with Soria. Pitch the guy when you need him most. Geez, this sucks.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
by kabrink on Apr 8, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention
he would have been better off just leaving Meche in there.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
Ron Mahay was also an option
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
Or Soria for more than a single inning
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
he shouldnt need to make this mistake to learn from it...
it should be obvious.
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Managers often make mistakes
All managers. Do you think fans usually agree with all or even most of the pitching decisions of a manager? Like when to pull a starter, who to replace him with, when to pull the reliever and who to replace him with? It’s easy to find fault with such decisions of any manager. I’m sorry, but you’re going to always be dissatisfied with the Royals manager until they are winning a lot of games.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude, he's still on the record as saying Kyle Farnsworth is his 8th inning guy.
How is this not disturbing to you? He was unwilling to admit leaving him out there / pitching him in the first place was a bad idea.
realistically speaking
It does disturb me
My team’s manager making mistakes disturbs me. But it doesn’t surprise me. It’s very common for managers.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
This != a mistake
This = blatant stupidity and disregard for reality
realistically speaking
no...id be upset with a loss just because winning is more fun....
But if we’re going to lose a game like this, a game we clearly shouldve won, I want to do it with our best guys, or 2nd best, or 3rd best, or 4th best
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Here's the other problem.
If Hillman had stood there in the post-game and said “I made a mistake,” that would be one thing.
Dude, he thinks he did the right thing. In his mind, he didn’t even make a mistake. That’s the ineptitude you’re defending here.
You can’t make moves (or not make moves as the case may be) which fly in the face of conventional wisdom — decisions where even your fans are calling the outcome before it happens — and then insist it wasn’t a mistake. At least three of us, before Farnsworth even threw a pitch to Thome, basically said “here comes the three-run homer.” I can’t speak for the other two guys, but I know why I said it.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Apr 8, 2009 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think your desire to be positive and call me and everyone out is coloring your rhetoric
if someone, in a random thread, told you farnsworth was better than cruz, you’d rip them apart
by Freneau on Apr 8, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don't think Farnsworth is better than Cruz
Not at all. And I think this was a clear stupid mistake by Hillman. My point (repeated for the umpteenth time) is that all managers make mistakes, particularly with regard to bullpen usage. It is quite common. This one is magnified for us because he’s the Royals manager, we are Royals fans, and this is opening day.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
other managers dont make mistakes this stupid, repeatedly
every other manager knows what a loogy is.
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
If you follow another team closely, you'll find that this simply isn't true
No other manager picks the wrong reliever? No other manager overexposes their LOOGY? You couldn’t be more wrong.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
sure, the state of managing sucks
but I think you’ll be hard pressed to find a worse example than what happened today… as mentioned below (or maybe it was above) it isn’t like Farns has a slightly worse FIP than Cruz or something, there is a large gap, moreover, there are other better options out there
its a pretty egregious decision, that was indefensible yesterday, when the story came out that KF was the setup man
Cite me some examples as egregious as Gobbles use last year....
and I dare you to find me one where a manager completely dismisses every stat when picking out a crucial role in the pen. K/9, FIP, TRA, ERA, HR/9, etc…everything tilts in Cruz’ favor, yet Farns is named the 8th inning guy
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
for real....
farnsworth was MAYBE the 5th best option there….id go like this…
1. cruz
2. soria
3. mahay
4. meche
5. farnsworth?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hell, I'd put him 6th
Tejeda rates ahead of him for me.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
#5. Even Horacio before Farnsie.
Why is it so effin’ important to have a leftie in the rotation but not recognize and utilize the obvious advantage of having lefties in the pen.
Plenty of other managers
pick the “wrong” reliever. Some of them even do it exactly the way Hillman did today, and they’re idiots too.
Many of them, however, do not pick the “wrong” reliever when it’s perfectly clear to everyone else watching the game that they’re doing so. They pick the “right” reliever — at least from a conventional wisdom or statistical wisdom standpoint — and then it doesn’t work out the way they planned it. Most of the time, a manager’s bullpen decisions may very well be arguable and earn criticism from some segment of the fanbase and analyst community, but they are at least defensible either from the conventional wisdom angle or from a statistical angle; letting Farnsworth face Thome in that situation is neither.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Apr 8, 2009 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
what really flummoxes me is the timing of it all
I understand that in the middle of the season, managers will make a move like this, and on the day of the game, it doesn’t make sense. But maybe the pitcher had appeared in the previous two games, or maybe he had already logged a ton of innings that season.
But on opening day, when everyone is fresh?
by marbotty on Apr 8, 2009 6:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
People wonder how Hillman lost control of the clubhouse last year
Well, how confident does Gil Meche feel in his skipper when he’s too dumb to put in the obviously better relief pitcher in a crucial game situation? That’s how mutinys start.
realistically speaking
I have a strong feeling that Royals players aren’t overreacting to this mistake like Royals fans are.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah...i bet gil went home all smiles tonite....
hell, i’ll bet that even gil’s wife is in a pretty shitty mood tonite
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, because the Royals lost and the bullpen blew a win for him
But not because of the reliever choice. That’s my take. Mutinies don’t start because of things like this. That is one of the many crazed overreactions. Perhaps the most.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you're crazy if you don't think they don't talk about this sort of stuff
realistically speaking
mutinies dont start b/c of outright stupidity by your leader?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd think that'd be a
decent reason to mutiny.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
I dont know that you have a boss per se in your job....
but can you honestly say that you’re not going to be upset if you complete a big project, in a nearly flawless manner, but your boss tinkers with it and fucks it all up?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, especially when there is a blatantly better alternative
to the route he took that f’d up all your hard work? I would be pretty livid
realistically speaking
Sure nobody likes a bad decision
But there’s a huge chasm between not liking a decision and it being the start of a mutiny.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
My point was, if there is already a divide between the players and manager
Crap like this doesn’t help.
realistically speaking
You have no idea if there is a divide between players and manager
You are assuming a great deal. And that assumption is fueled heavily by your anger at Hillman.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Other than the fact that it was reported several times last year
I don’t think it’s any huge secret that Trey Hillman wasn’t mr. popular in the KC clubhouse last year
realistically speaking
I think you are exaggerating the claims from those articles
You’re blowing it up into something it wasn’t…and you have no idea what his relationship to his players is. None, sorry. We can guess at it though, because that’s fun.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay, you're right.
Trey Hillman is a perfectly fine manager, 95% of the managers in baseball would have made this move, and we should shut up and be happy because hey, it’s not even that bad. Oh, and there were no problems in the Royals clubhouse last season, and all is well. Sounds good.
realistically speaking
by slayor on Apr 8, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Whew, I'm glad we got that cleared up
Because that was exactly what I was saying.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
and you're completely ignoring the claims from those articles....
looking at the evidence we have is a much better plan than throwing it away like youre doing
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
now say you do a bunch of projects very well...
and your boss continues to do this to you…along with many of your coworkers….hows it going to play out then?
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm going to create a mutiny in an attempt to get my boss fired
Ok, that sounds silly, so I’m not going to do that.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
or look to find another job....
or just coast b/c it doesnt really matter how you perform b/c your boss will do his best to screw it up
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, they can't look for another job
And I really doubt these guys are going to coast because they don’t like the manager. They want to win. And they don’t want to look like shit out there. They want people to think they are good, both for ego reasons and because it affects the next paycheck.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure no player has EVER demanded a trade....
oh, and no player has EVER coasted
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Players demand trades because of how they are used (or not used)
Has a player ever demanded a trade because of how other players are used? And I think coasting because the player is pissed off at the manager is very, very rare. Even if they aren’t team players, these guys have strong ego and financial reasons to perform well and get good stats, if nothing else.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Someone famous once wrote
a lengthy piece on defining obvious managerial mistakes. They’re whenever a manager:
a) makes a move which flies in the face of either conventional wisdom or obvious statistical merit (or both at the same time),
b) makes said move in the presence of a much more logical and sensible alternative, and
c) it doesn’t work.
Now, of course, C is only relevant insofar as determining whether or not one should deem the move a “blunder,” because in reality what’s happened is that the manager has done something stupid and gotten lucky. But the key here is that both A and B also imply that the manager has done something which is NOT, in fact, a “standard, traditional, orthodox, run-of-the-mill” decision.
Allowing Farnsworth to pitch to Thome was against conventional wisdom. It was against statistical wisdom. And Hillman had not one but two better alternatives facing him (three, actually, if one wants to include “walk Thome” in the list). It was not a “standard, traditional, orthodox, run-of-the-mill” decision on his part. It was just plain stupid, just like any number of other decisions he’s made in the last 370 days.
One can argue that a manager is “awful” precisely because he hews to traditional tactics and has no creativity. But when one “defies” orthodoxy in order to do something quite clearly stupider than orthodoxy, I think the argument is even more compelling. I mean, really, nobody in charge of a major league roster should ever allow a straight-on right-handed power pitcher (especially one with absolutely no history of being able to avoid being taken deep by dead-red lefty fastball hitters) anywhere near the plate with Jim Thome holding a bat. That’s not a “mistake,” that’s pure incompetence.
It’s just like real life jobs. A lot of mistakes are just mistakes, and you learn and move on. Some mistakes, however, are so egregious, so clearly caused by a complete lack of preparation, foresight, or simple common sense, that they mean you’ve at best guaranteed yourself a pink slip when the layoffs come.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Apr 8, 2009 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Exactly.
other managers do make mistakes, but I could watch a thousand games managed by a thousand different managers and very, very few would do this…you are talking about one of the best straight fast ball hitters in the history of the game vs. a mediocre, at best, straight fast ball pitcher. and you have three rested and better options. I will give Trey the benefit of the doubt on pulling Meche and even naming Farnsy the set-up guy the day before. but leaving him in there is…well, its been said enough.
the whole world is talking about how the royals could sneak up on people this year and maybe, just maybe they have the talent to do it, but they have to make the absolute most out of that talent they have, they can’t just do things because that’s the way other managers might have done it. Hillman has to be able to make the precisely correct decisions and, so far he has not shown that he has the acumen to do so. Yes, it is only one game, that point is well taken, but it is a very discouraging sign.
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Apr 8, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions
and therefore a large strike against the man in charge
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok guys, this was fun, but I'm out
There might be something new to be upset about tomorrow. I hear TPJ is getting the start at SS because Aviles is slumping. (j/k, but you know Hillman would totally do that!) lol
The immoderate moderator
we'll see if the zebra changes his stripes....
just like we’re waiting to see with Banny….
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Cruz logic
Quote:
“Left-hander Ron Mahay and right-hander Juan Cruz were warming up in the bullpen. Then Farnsworth got Carlos Quentin to strike out.”
“As soon as he struck Quentin out, I sat Mahay down. Because I was planning, if Kyle was throwing strikes, I was going to leave him in. Ron has never been just a left-handed specialist,” Hillman said.
No mention of Cruz. BA of LHB last year vs Cruz= .159, 82 AB, 35 K, 0 HR!
Again ( I posted this elsewhere)
Which of the 3 batters that Farnsworth got behind 2-0 convinced Hillman that he was throwing strikes?
BUT HE JUST STRUCK QUENTIN OUT!!!
THAT MEANS HE WAS THROWING STRIKES!!! LIKE THREE WHOLE STRIKES!!
Three, plural, is more than one “strike,” singular. So, Hillman was absolutely correct. I find no fault with this statement or his moves. In fact, I’m sure that 95% of the managers in MLB would have done and said the exact same thing. Everything is fine.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 8, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
WRONG, WRONG, A THOUSAND TIMES WRONG
throwing strikes is exactly the problem…Farnsworth makes his living by throwing straight fast balls by mediocre hitters who can’t catch up to them. The whole world knows that Jim Thome is a great hitter who makes his living catching up to straight fast balls, throw one for a strike…good bye.
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Apr 8, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought the sarcasm...
in that comment was pretty clear. Maybe I should have used all caps throughout the entire comment. How do you do that “Official Royals Review Universally-Recognized Sarcasm Font” thing again?
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 8, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, I thought I detected the sarc
in the beginning, but it seemed to tail off at the end…just venting.
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Apr 8, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
"I felt good enough to go back out," he said. "I told (Hillman) that, but we’ve got some guys down there who have done it before. We just fell short today."
Well, seems like Gil feels he was used incorrectly today
And to me its not necessarily the fact that the terrible decision was made, it was that its been made before and Hillman cant see why it wasnt the right decision
"I saw a lot of good things today," manager Trey Hillman said, "but the way it ended…sure, you hope that you can hold onto a one-run lead. Professional hitter got a pitch that was left over the plate a little too much. "It’s a matter of location, not necessarily the pitch or the velocity. It’s just where he left it."
TPJ...you're dead to me
by billybeingbilly on Apr 8, 2009 12:40 AM EDT reply actions
One last question
What an amazing interpretation. Because Meche told Hillman that he felt good enough to go back out in the 8th inning, then he felt like hie was used incorrectly? You’re reaching.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Apr 8, 2009 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
They really better win a game before coming back friday...
or it could get ugly at the K….0-3 with a loss like this…AND ponson on the mound? I dont care how pretty the tv is…even casual fans realize how terrible this loss was and why this loss happened
TPJ...you're dead to me
It's only one game
But we all know Farnsy shouldn’t have been pitching to Thome. It should have been Mahay, Cruz, or Soria. Trey Hillman is a professional baseball manager and he’s supposed to know things like “Jim Thome kills right-handed guys who throw hard and have nothing else.” No manager is perfect, but if you want to start a 2009 List of Games Trey Blew With Dumb Decisions, Opening Day was 1.
Maybe Thome would have jacked one out against Cruz or Mahay, but at least Trey would have been playing the percentages with his reliever change. Instead he was busy playing with himself while ogling the Farnsy centerfold edition of Playgirl.
And I’m another firm believer in the “fireman” rather than “closer” school of using your best reliever. Let’s see. The other team’s best power hitter is up with men on base and the game on the line. But it’s only the eighth inning, so we keep our best pitcher in the bullpen (he only pitches the ninth, you know) and send in the overpaid goon notorious for giving up home runs. Hell, Soria was a starter in Mexico, he ought to be able to pitch to five or six batters per appearance without getting worn out.
It's pronounced Poo-ZHOLS in Catalan.
but at least Trey would have been playing the percentages with his reliever change
that’s the important thing. nobody would have been (too) upset if we lost the game on account of cruz. there may have been some that said that Meche should have been left in, but i think on the whole, most people would have accepted it…
on account of Cruz
(or Mahay, for that matter.) You use your best options and get beat, you just got beat. You do something like yesterday and get beat, you gave up.
This space for rent.
Decisions Ok this game
Taking Meche out after a well pitched game, 91 pitches, on opening day was the right decision. There is no reason to push him on the very first day. How many times did he throw 100 pitches in ST?
Plus, the philosophy of the club that our bullpen will shut you down. Is Farnsworth a roogy? No, and he just struck out the most dangerous guy on the White Sox. I really, really hate farnsworth, but this was not a wrong decision. You are looking at this in hindsite, and most of the time it will go the other way. The good news is, that if it doesn’t go the other way most of the time, Mayhay or Cruz will be in that spot, and we can see Farnsworth in the 6th or 7th.
The handful of people who posted
“Oh, no, get Farnsworth out of there, this has three-run jack written all over it” before Farnsworth’s first pitch to Thome beg to differ with your characterization of this as “hindsight.”
This space for rent.
Or that Thome should be intentionally walked
that’s what I suggested. Dye is good, but not as dangerous as Thome.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
it was the wrong decision
After Quentin, Farnsworth should be on a tight “batter” count, 2-3 tops!
Bring in the closer. Or Mahay.
Thome had two hits already, seeing the ball well.
One that got away, gotta rebound today.
"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy."
- Dodgers, Astros, Brewers, A's & Angels pitcher Don Sutton
On any given at bat, a MAJOR LEAGUE player Jim Thome counts as one can hit a homerun. The guy has over 500 career jacks, how is it that the manager is a moron and the pitcher is worthless? Whoever wrote this is a complete idiot and has no understanding of the game of baseball. Ditto to all of you who agreed with it. Is Farnsworth the answer? I don’t know. But he’s not a waste because he blew one game. No team ever went 162-0.
by royalsfanforever on Apr 8, 2009 8:46 AM EDT reply actions
It's not the loss so much
as the crazy thought process in Hillman’s head that says that Kyle Farnsworth is a better pitcher than Juan Cruz or Ron Mahay. The thought process that says Farnsworth is a given a throne as “the set up” man while Mahay is “best in the 6th inning”.
And it is the thinking that lets you keep one of the most HR prone pitchers in baseball on the mound in one the best HR parks in baseball against one of the best power hitters in baseball. After allowing 2 hits. When he had a full bullpen, and two better pitchers up and warm.
Mahay or Cruz might have given up the jack, they might not have. That is kind of immaterial, it is the thinking behind the decision that ismind-blowingly frustrating and depressing.
The Allard Baird of incisive internet discourse.
...
If you can’t see the difference in ANY MAJOR LEAGUE HITTER vs. ANY MAJOR LEAGUE PITCHER (for example, Mo Rivera vs. TPJ), and your analysis is SO VAGUE that you have to resort to “anyone can hit a HR at any time, so shut up!” you should probably just pack your keyboard in storage along with your Ross Gload t-shirt.
Farny being Farny.
by JobDDT on Apr 8, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This really bothers me
"Ron Mahay is not a lefty specialist," he repeated. "He’s really more effective in the sixth and seventh innings."
- Trey Hillman
How is it that Ron Mahay’s “stuff” doesn’t work as well on hitters in the 8th? Complete nonsense.
by cookierojas73 on Apr 8, 2009 8:47 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Nonsense indeed
This a problem that goes beyond simply the decision to allow Farnsworth (right-handed extreme fly ball pitcher who is one of the worst pitchers in the league in allowing HRs) to face Thome (left-handed hitter who has made a case for the Hall of Fame by teeing off on pitchers with Farnsworth’s skills), which was horrendous. Instead of looking at the skills offered by each member of the bullpen and using them in the appropriate situation based on context and leverage, Hillman has assigned roles by inning to the pitchers regardless of whether that use puts the pitcher with the best chance to succeed in that situation into the game.
But at least Hillman did not say that he left Farnsworth in the game after the Getz single because he was looking for a double play grounder.
by Gopherballs on Apr 8, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hillman a minor league manager
trey is a minor league manager and nothing better. he made same mistake yesterday as he did all year last year. he doesnt know how to manage in-game. end of story .
maybe hillman and farnsworth can be Peter Principle buddies
each has reached their level of incompetence: 8th inning for Farnsy and the majors for Hillman
farnsworth
farnsworth should be used but not with the game on the line like that. i no its only one game loss but hillman made these same mistakes alot last year. hes catching no heat really. use farnsworth like we used to with peralta etc… get an out maybe two and thats it. next mans turn
Bring back Buddy Bell!!! Hell, bring back Tony Pena!!! No, no, no, bring back Tony Muser!!!
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Let's go back a lot further...
Bring back Whitey Herzog!
by cookierojas73 on Apr 8, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
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