Measuring the Seitzer Effect
Much has been made, both in the media, and on Royals Review, about the effect of new hitting coach Kevin Seitzer on the Royals' batters this year. The references to Seitzer's work are largely tongue-in-cheek, as it appears most people believe that a hitting coach has little tangible effect on a team's overall offensive performance.
While that is probably true, I thought it would be interesting to attempt to measure and follow any noticeable changes in hitting performance for which Seitzer might deserve some credit. Although I'm a complete newbie and hack when it comes to advanced statistics, I decided to chart certain stats for each Royals batter and compare those stats to each player's career numbers. (As always, many thanks to Fangraphs for providing this great info.) In an exhibition of poor judgment and a complete lack of shame, I've decided to make my amateur spreadsheet available for public ridicule and mockery here at RR. If you click on the following link, you should see a Google spreadsheet listing the Royals' hitters.
The Seitzer Effect (through 25 games) [Gordon, TPJ, and Brayan not included]
Players are listed by descending order based on wOBA. (I know it's very early, and it's highly unlikely to continue, but just seeing Wee Willie leading all Royals' batters with a crushing .441 still makes me do a double take.) Of course, there are a couple major caveats with the numbers here. First, as far as the 2009 numbers go, say it with me....small sample size. Second, many of the numbers, such as 2009 BB/K rates, can still fluctuate pretty wildly given the still relatively small number of PA's for everyone so far.
Despite these caveats, you can't help but notice some of these stats. Seven out of 12 regulars' wOBAs are up over their career numbers, and up significantly, too. Of course, there are some slumps in there, such as Aviles and, lately, Jacobs. Especially when it is early in the season, you will always have guys that get off to very hot starts (Callaspo, Bloomquist) and those that struggle out of the gate (Aviles, DeJesus). Those starts are easily and most effectively shown through a player's wOBA, which one could call a "production stat."
Seitzer's stated (and practiced) hitting philosophy is to have consistently good plate appearances, showing great plate discipline to increase walks and the number of quality pitches that a hitter sees. When a hitter does see a quality pitch, Seitzer seems to emphasize using the middle of the field and hitting line drives. With that stated philosophy, if Seitzer's influence and guidance can possibly be quantified or measured, it would have to be through what I would call "approach stats," such as O-Swing%, BB%, and BB/K.
Looking at these sorts of stats yields some very interesting early results for The Seitzer Effect. I first looked at O-Swing%, which is the percentage of pitches outside the strike zone at which the batter swings. Strangely, for a guy who preaches plate discipline, most of Seitzer's players' O-Swing percentages are higher than their career averages. (They're also higher than the MLB average over the last couple years, which Fangraphs pegs at 25.0% and 25.4%.) Looking at the next two categories is where things get interesting, though.
Both the BB% and BB/K ratio are up, and up significantly, for the overwhelming majority of batters. I and many others made fun of Dayton Moore calling Bloomquist an "on-base guy," based on his fairly long history of decidedly not being an on-base guy. But I guess Dayton, his scouts, and Seitzer are making us eat our words (for the time being at least), as The Spork is walking 7.8% more than he has throughout his career. That increased walk rate has obviously been a big part of his team-leading wOBA of .441. Crisp has also had a huge increase in his walk rate, getting a free pass 7.6% more than he ever did with Cleveland or Boston. While the rates for the others aren't quite as dramatic, they are still showing noted increases in plate discipline results...even though almost everyone is swinging at more pitches outside the zone than they should. Weird. Finally, in another oddity, most of the Royals have thus far seen a decrease from career rates in both overall contact rates and LD%.
So, what do these numbers tell us? Well, it seems to me that Seitzer has had a tangible, noticeable effect on the plate discipline of many, if not most, of the Royals' batters. It is still early, but so far it really does look like he's actually been able to positively alter their approach at the plate. If true, then this would certainly be a welcome change from years past. Whether he's using The Force or some other mind control technique, Seitzer may truly have become the OBA-Wan Kenobi of Royals' hitting coaches.
It is probably impossible to measure the true effect of a hitting coach's instruction, if there really is any. The increase in these numbers may just be natural fluctuations in the Royals' hitting that may come back to each player's career norms over the course of the season. Furthermore, we can't just apply "The Seitzer Effect" equally to each player. Despite what the numbers may tell us, we don't really know who is intently listening to every word that comes out of Seitzer's mouth, and who may be completely ignoring him. We can only rely on random quotes from certain individuals who may consistently praise the coach, such as Buck. His increased numbers seem to evidence his belief that Seitzer's teachings have been a tremendous help. On the other hand, Olivo still appears to be following the Pedro Cerrano School by giving regular offerings to Jobu in an attempt to wake up his bats. I think he's going to need some more rum.
via www.eteamz.com
I'll try to keep this chart updated at regular intervals over the course of the year, and may update with new posts accordingly. I think it will be interesting to follow, whatever value it may have. Let me know what other stats you think would be good potential measures for Seitzer's influence. And if you think this is pure idiocy, then please be gentle in the comments.
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"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on May 4, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Willie has had a lot of BABIP luck
LD% 16.2%
expected BABIP .282 (approx.)
actual BABIP .417
This doesn’t account for all of Bloomy’s good numbers, but it does account for a lot of the hits. The balls have been falling in for him so far this year. It won’t continue like this.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 4, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
How dare you blaspheme the good name of Wee Willie Bloomquist
Interesting stuff otherwise. Just on pure observation, the team does seem more patient than in years past.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
It might be interesting
if we could see something regarding where our hitters are hitting the ball as well. It seems like Seitzer stresses staying inside the ball, especially with 2 strikes, and using the opposite field. That’s in direct opposition to some notorious pull tendencies from Teahen, Buck and Giullen. I believe all have homered to the opposite field in recent games; who would have thought they not only could hit the ball there, but also do it with power.
I think Teahen’s early success is directly attributable to using the whole field versus trying to pull everything and coming over the ball to ground it to 1b or 2b.
Of course we should also point out that the offense is still near the bottom of the league, so too many kudos for Seitzer at this point is a little premature.
And, don't forget Alex (Pull Only) Gordon
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
Gordon's 2008 Home Runs
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I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 4, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey 2/3 of his HR's were pulled
That’s close to “pull-only.”
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 4, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know much about this stuff
but while this isn’t the same thing as “pulling,” my impression from others is that the inside pitches are some of the ones he has trouble with.
You know, I’ve seen Pull% stats somewhere, but now I can’t find them anywhere. Lil’ help?
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 4, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Pull%
Sounds made up to me. No help here.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 4, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting distances at least
its clear he didn’t get cheated on those swings.
I've got crazy flipper fingers!
yeah, his home runs went really far, really fast
I had a post about the 2008 Royals all written using Hit Tracker, but then I got caught up in other stuff, and the new season started, etc.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 4, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
And I would think without looking into it that it is almost universal that players hit the ball farther on average when they pull as compared to when they go the other way.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 4, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
7/16
in the “totally extreme pulled” 15 degrees
don’t get me wrong, I like Alex. But, he totally frustrates me because he seems incapable of shortening his swing or altering it whatsoever to hit a pitch that happens to be in a different location than almost basically one spot. Let’s just say Seitzer has his work cut out for him.
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
Power hitters pull most of their hard hit balls
And a good hitter usually sends some other balls around the field too. That’s what Gordon does. IMO, Gordon’s problem isn’t his tendency to pull. To the extent that he has a tendency to pull, it’s the normal tendency of good power hitters.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 5, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd hardly call
8th in OPS and 7th in SLG “near the bottom of the league”. As far as runs scored, they’re 10th, but one run shy of being closer to being 6th than to being 11th; if you “tiered” the offenses so far, they’d look like this:
TOR
BOS/NYY/TEX
CLE/DET/TBY/BAL
LAA/KCR
MIN/SEA/CWS
OAK
What’s interesting is… okay, we all know this is not an entirely valid exercise, but we’re going to go through it anyway. If you leave off those first five horrible offensive games of the season, we’re scoring 5.55 runs a game. If we’d scored 5.55 runs those first five games rather than the 1.60 runs we actually scored, we’d be at 139 RS — which would be fifth in the league, and only 5 runs shy of being SECOND.
But the main point there is that over the last 20 games, we are scoring 5.55 runs a game. Folks, over 162 games, that’s 899 runs. Since 20 games is more relevant than five games, I’d have to say that the offense is actually doing quite well, considering all the jokes we made about whether or not we’d crack 700 this season.
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by jonfmorse on May 4, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
at the time of this posting 9th out of 14th in the AL in wOBA at .337, which is currently exactly average.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 4, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think if we have a league average offense for the entire year...
…we’ll not just win the division, but we’d be contender in the playoffs as well. An average offense, a good bullpen and 2-4 good SP’s can carry you a long ways in the playoffs (especially if two of those starters are really good).
That being said, I don’t think the Royals will have a league average offense all year.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 5, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
not following
The other day I stated that I worry that the pitching will cool off some and that the hitting would also likely get worse also. And, I think you said the offense could still improve from here. Are you saying different today?
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
Three days ago, this was not a league average offense
This early in the season, three days of good hitting can push you up to average. Three bad days would push the Royals back down again.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 5, 2009 3:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess you missed what I said
The reason they were NOT league average was five days of BAD hitting to start the season.
Having scored 5.5 RPG in the two games since I posted that, they’re STILL scoring 5.5 RPG since the first pitch of game 6. It is not “three days of good hitting” that’s pushed them back to average, it’s “three more days of hitting like they’ve hit for the last three weeks.”
If you want to take the futility of the first five games of the season as the Royal’s established level of offense rather than the 22 games since then, be my guest.
This space for rent.
If you want to take the futility of the first five games of the season as the Royal’s established level of offense rather than the 22 games since then, be my guest.
I didn’t. In fact, if you read this thread, kabrink noted that a few days ago (I think four days ago now) I was saying that while the pitching should settled down, the hitting (at the overall level they were hitting at the time) should improve. I was most definitely not taking the Royals hitting in the first five games or even their overall numbers at the time as their “established level of offense” which should continue for the remainder of the season.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 6, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Then I misread your comment
as implying that it was “just” three days of good offense which boosted them.
I’ll note, though, that in terms of RS, they’re stretching the gap between their tier and the Really Bad Offenses. It’s becoming less likely that three bad games would dump them right back down again.
This space for rent.
the bullpen is right around average currently
the rotation is excellent, but Meche and Greinke are the only pitchers in it I would be comfortable calling “good” at this point. Davies tRA has already dropped back below average. Maybe when Hochevar comes up…
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 5, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm pretty excited about the prospects of seeing this develop
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by RoyalsFanInMarinerTown on May 4, 2009 4:16 PM EDT reply actions
It would have been nice
after GB’s first half of the season that first full year to try to measure the Charley Lau effect
Come on, Annie, think of something clever to say, huh? Something full of magic, religion, bullshit. Come on, dazzle me.
See I always compare things to the phenomenal
If I remember correctly back when George came in as full time replacement to my childhood idol Paul Schaal who now that I look back….
1973 Paul Schaal was .288/.389/.399 with OPS of .788
1974 George Brett was .282/.313/.363 with OPS of .676
and got enough votes to be 3rd behind Mike Hargrove and Bucky Dent for RoY.
oh by the way Schall had some ‘fair’ numbers in 74 with a .236/.316/.316 and OPS .632 in total with 65 games split up between 12 in KC and 53 with the Angels. The split was a dismal .176/.286/.324/.609 in 12 games with the Royals who were ready to bring in the prospect to replace a player clearly in his decline, and in 53 more games with the Angels he put up .248/.322/.315/.609. Yeah, Schaal was done.
But man, I was only 9 years old and I was disappointed that they were bringing in THAT guy who if I remember correctly was pretty crappy for the first part of the year, then brought his numbers up to what he finished with by the end of the season due to the work he did with Charley Lau during the All Star Break.
It’s neat now to look back and see what the numbers were. I wish I could find George Brett’s line for the first half of the season in 74 and compare them to the second half.
What a class act he turned out to be at least as a ball player two years later when I vividly remember his quote during an interview “Thank you Charley Lau!” giving credit where credit was due, kind of like Zack right now giving credit to those who are helping him.
But enough of that. George’s numbers in 1975, the first full season after the work done with Charley during that All Star Break in 74, were .308/.353/.456/.809. That was enough to get enough votes for 11th in AL MVP. (but Big Bad John got enough votes for 2nd in AL MVP — he hit 34 HR that year, Charley Lau anyone?)
1976 George went .333/.377/.462/.839 to win the AL batting title in possibly the most dramatic fashion I’ll never witness again with McRae and Carew and Lyman Bostock all four coming down to the wire, and we lost the final four games of the season out of which Bostock played only two, and Brett and McRae played three. The finish was Brett with .333, McRae with .332, and Carew with .331 if I’ve done my research correctly Bostock finished at .327 and got the “highest paid player in the league” free agent contract in the off season — but then was murdered, literally, soon after. What a tragedy but I digress.
I think the hitting coach has a MAJOR impact.
Thank you Charley Lau indeed, and this year I say, “Thank you Brian Seitzer.”
Maybe this should start a new thread.
Come on, Annie, think of something clever to say, huh? Something full of magic, religion, bullshit. Come on, dazzle me.
"George Brett’s line for the first half of the season in 74 and compare them to the second half."
May 3, 1974 to Jul 21, 1974
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=brettge01&t=b&year=1974&share=1.06#14-81-sum:batting_gamelogs
.242/.288/.308
Jul 25, 1974 to Oct 2, 1974
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=brettge01&t=b&year=1974&share=3.50#82-146-sum:batting_gamelogs
.317/.335/..411
Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!
wow so it's not as "dramatic" as I thought it would be
but it’s still a difference. That comment was just made at a glance. and keep in mind the whole thing is clouded by about 25 years of memory. I’m 44 now and I was 9 then and it doesn’t include any of the judgment skewing imposed by my watching the rest of his HOF career after this stuff happened.
I think though that we’re witnessing the same thing happen in the influence of Zack’s performance with all the input he’s getting now.
I think Zack is out future HOF’er.
Sometime in 2027 or so.
Come on, Annie, think of something clever to say, huh? Something full of magic, religion, bullshit. Come on, dazzle me.
I think that's a very significant increase...
but with a younger player, you never know how much of that was Lau’s coaching and Brett’s personal development. Ultimately, maybe Brett himself doesn’t even know. But I’ll take his word for it…if the hitter himself swears by Lau and the guidance he provided, and the stats back it up, then it’s tough to argue with him. As Crash would say: “If you believe you’re playing well because you’re getting laid, or because you’re not getting laid, or because you wear women’s underwear, then you ARE!”
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on May 4, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Charley Lau is one of the few real hitting guru's
I think he helped a lot of players. But I think the vast majority of major league hitting coaches (99%+) have little impact.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 4, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah I know.
that’s where the “phenomenal” reference came from
but can I hope for lightning to strike twice?
Come on, Annie, think of something clever to say, huh? Something full of magic, religion, bullshit. Come on, dazzle me.
Who knows, it might even be striking right now
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 4, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah scroll up to what I'm thinking about Greinke, and
How Allard and Buddy handled his problem, along with Bob Mac now…
Come on, Annie, think of something clever to say, huh? Something full of magic, religion, bullshit. Come on, dazzle me.
sorry it don't have much to do with Seitzer.
my comments that is… but wow what if…
Seitzer and McClure keep Hillman from looking like a total TOOL. put that together with Hillman and Moore actually turn out looking like total GENIUSES (pun intended sorta)
Come on, Annie, think of something clever to say, huh? Something full of magic, religion, bullshit. Come on, dazzle me.
I don’t know the history as well, and I’m sure he helped in some way,
but I’m going to need more evidence than George Brett — a guy who I suspect had fairly good talent to begin with — to buy this.
Otherwise, I could assemble a pretty good list of “pitching coaches who made a difference” pretty easily just by looking at guys who coache Barry Bonds, A-Rod, Pujols, Mike Schmidt, Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Willie Bloomquist, Lance Berkman, Chipper Jones, Frank Robinson, etc.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 4, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
FWIW, I think the Brett-Lau stuff gets a lot of play because 1) Brett has always given Lau a great deal of credit for helping him to become a great hitter, and 2) Lau’s reputation is that he’s possibly the best hitting coach ever.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 4, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
sure, I'm not saying it's irrelevant
but you have to wonder about the chicken-and-egg effect of Lau’s rep and Brett’s success.
that’s all
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 4, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
IIRC, Lau’s reputation wasn’t mostly about Brett. But it’s been a while.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 4, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Willie Bloomquist = awesome
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
"Jobu, Budha....Budha, Jobu
Now I don’t want know trouble outta you two."
by I need more Esteban on May 4, 2009 4:58 PM EDT reply actions
I considered adding another couple of RCI questions about Seitzer and McClure
In addition to the “job approval” part, I was going to ask for each coach what degree of impact people thought they have had on the team (1-10). But the RCI was getting somewhat unwieldy, so left them off. Personally, from what I’ve heard Seitzer has done a good job, but I think that like just about all hitting coaches, his impact is minimal (something in the 1-2 range). McClure’s number would be somewhat higher than that.
The immoderate moderator
Yeah, I figured this would ultimately be an exercise in futility when I started putting the chart together
But I do think that the addition of Seitzer to the 2009 Royals is a somewhat unique situation with a hitting or pitching coach. Seitzer has a pretty specific philosophy, that, while it isn’t necessarily groundbreaking or earth-shattering, can be measured to some extent with approach stats like O-Swing%, walk rates, etc. And apparently, this philosophy wasn’t discussed or implemented to the extent that Moore and Seitzer said it was going to be prior to the 2008-09 offseason. By all accounts, it’s a new emphasis.
Most of the time, a new hitting or pitching coach isn’t coming in with a specific new mandate or philosophy that is a departure from what was previously done within the organization or by the players themselves. They’re just coming in to “coach up” their players. In those typical cases, it would extremely difficult to assign much, if any, meaning whatsoever to increased performance. You’d probably have to wait until a hitting/pitching coach had compiled at least a 5-10 year career at the MLB-level, and track the individual performances of hitters/pitchers in their years under the new coach vs. their previous career numbers. And you’d still have the problem of natural, “coach-neutral” increases in player performance.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on May 4, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
It's certainly worth looking into
But ultimately, it will be hard to tell when, where or if Seitzer has had an impact. I doubt he (or any hitting coach) has an impact across the board, helping all players. I think that even the best hitting coaches only have a significant impact on a couple or maybe a handful of players. So if a handful of players improve significantly this season (in walks, OBP, what have you) will that be because of Seitzer? It’s going to be hard to say.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 4, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
that was my point.
Charley Lau made an impact on just over a handful of players on a handful of teams not just the Royals.
Okay so he’s the exception to the norm but look what he did.
If Seitzer is doing a fraction of what Lau did this could be something great.
Remember George had an impact on Seitzer. and George was a Lau product.
see where I’m going with this?
once again post-humous, “Thank you Charley Lau”
now I need another beer.
Come on, Annie, think of something clever to say, huh? Something full of magic, religion, bullshit. Come on, dazzle me.
I will be very impressed if...
guys like Crisp, Buck, Teahen, Jacobs, and (gasp) Bloomquist can show (or maintain) substantial improvements, since they’re all experienced enough players. If, at the end of the year, it’s just Butler, Gordon, and Callaspo that have improved over their fairly limited career numbers, I would say it’s probably just as much, if not more, their own personal development and/or increased playing time than Seitzer’s influence.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
by Sweep_the_Leg on May 4, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt he (or any hitting coach) has an impact across the board, helping all players.
Statement is self-evident, insofar as some players just aren’t going to listen, and some just aren’t going to be able to apply the lessons.
I think the most important effect a hitting coach can have is not a one-season bang. Lau taught Brett an approach which Brett then adhered to for the remainder of his career; it stands to reason that the effect of a hitting coach, then, must be measured in terms of breakouts. If Teahen, Callaspo, good god even the Spork have learned something which will lead to a career-long improvement over what we’ve seen from them so far… then you almost have to pin the blame for that on Seitzer.
This space for rent.
The biggest difference so far this year....
I believe, and attribute to Seitz is patience at the plate. I don’t keep score every game or delve into the stats like my wife does (she’s an accountant, that’s what she does), but I have noticed a couple of things watching the seasons of 07, 08 and 09.
1) Teahen is still going to swing at the first pitch if it’s anywhere close to the box.
2) Teahen is going to swing at the 2nd pitch if it’s anywhere close to the box.
3) It appears (on paper or not) that the team is protecting the plate much better, and getting pitchers to a full count more consistently. The hitter may or may not get on base, but it still seems the pitchs are getting racked up against the opposing pitch quicker than the last few seasons.
















