"According to this board"
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 8:07 AM EDT
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PrintAlex Gordon is the savior and the best player in Royals history......he should be given the key to the city and no one should ever challenge him for 3B in the next 10 years as long as he hits 15 HR's, Strikes out only 120 times and hits .260.
Also, Guillen is the worst OF in MLB, Farnsworth worst reliever in MLB history, and Moore and Hillman need to get fired. Moore traded two future MVP candidates in Nunez and Ramirez for two horrible, OBP deficient players and Hillman's ridiculos coaching has cost the Royals 5 wins and we should be 23-6 without him. Greinke's contract was only good, not a great move (although Buster Olney said Moore should be given executive of the year just for locking him before this year).
What other prevalent opinions on this board am i missing?
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You forgot this one...
Posts by GobbleforCyYoung can be filed in the “What’s your point?” bin. What is your point?
by RaulDuke on May 8, 2009 8:44 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
The point is I'm tired of hearing all this crap throughout RR threads/posts
It’s gotten to the point where ALL of the above is taken as gospel and none of it is true (except maybe Farnswroth lol – I didn’t think he was THIS bad)
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I HATE WHEN PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH ME!!!!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on May 8, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I HATE WHEN PEOPLE TR Y TO BE SARCASTIC AFTER EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY POSTS
Come on man, seriously?
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously
I hate when people disagree with me.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on May 8, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you know what
in a way a I totally agree…good shit
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
The entire tone of your post is sarcastic
So don’t be surprised when we respond in kind. If you were really interested in challenging the orthodoxy of this board, you’d offer the real arguments, not strawmen like “Alex Gordon is the savior and the best player in Royals history” and you’d refute them using solid logic and evidence. Instead you just throw out a bunch of sarcastic points in derisive mockery. I obviously like sarcasm as much as the next guy, but it usually has a point. I don’t know what you expected to accomplish with your rant.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on May 8, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
People have a way of seeing only what they want to see
I’ve seen solid evidence presented on both sides in many arguments and it didn’t change anyone’s mind on anything… It’s all predermined…
The 2009 Official You Got Rocked by the Royals and Sent to the Minors List
1. Josh Rupe TEX April 17
2. David Purcey TOR May 1
3. Brian Burres TOR May 1
4. Bryan Bullington TOR May 1
Don't call my post a strawmen because its a valid argument
What has Gordon done but improve his walk ratio? He strikes out 25% of his AB’s and has a career average of .250 and now he’s hurt. Longoria is two years younger and is dominating the AL, but its taboo on Royals Review to suggest Gordon could be a bust and needs to be sent to the minors, or perhaps switch positions (to SS) to accommodate Mark Teahen and Callaspo who are playing well??
Mike Jacobs was chastised for being a horrible first basemen (which he is) and an OBP sieve but he’s leading our team with 5 HR’s and 19 RBI
Hillman has his team in first place and I constantly hear a calling for his job because of poor management. His firing would derail the team.
All I heard was how Guillen was less than a replacement level outfielder (Poz said he was the 3rd worst in MLB last year) and his salary was such a drain on our team; now he’s playing well.
Farnsworth (no comment – I was wrong)
I heard this all winter and most of what I thought is being realized
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Its a strawman to say
That anyone on this board has said Alex Gordon is “the savior and the best player in Royals history……he should be given the key to the city and no one should ever challenge him for 3B in the next 10 years as long as he hits 15 HR’s, Strikes out only 120 times and hits .260.”
Many are optimistic about Gordon and realize it is still early in his career and that he made some huge strides at the end of last year, but that he has yet to live up to his potential. I think most on here are taking a “wait and see” attitude towards Gordon, nothing like you have characterized. It is not “taboo” to suggest anything about Gordon, only that most people disagree that he needs to be sent down after 21 bat at-bats since he had such a terrific second half in 2008. And most also disagree that moving him to shortstop would be good for him (learning a new position might be bad for his development) or the team (he likely lacks the range to play shortstop which would cost our defense dearly).
As for Jacobs, he’s doing what most of us thought he would do -hit home runs, play terrible defense, and not get on base.
This board is pretty evenly mixed on Trey. People criticize him, but anyone in that position will be criticized. I don’t think there is any kind of consensus that he be fired.
Guillen was pretty awful last year. He is off to a good start. Let’s hope it keeps up, but I don’t think he has vindicated his supporters quite yet.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on May 8, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I can't really rebuke anything you said right there
it’s pretty much right on point. Guillen was pretty bad but 20 and 97 does have value. Gordon’s OBP is encouraging, but until we can see that level maintained with 20+ homeruns and 20+ steals I’m not sold.
And its looking like Jacobs defense is becoming an irrelevant measure since he has become a DH
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I will just preface this by saying I never bought into the Gordon hype.
If you are upset about Gordon’s K’s then don’t take a look at Jacobs statline. Guillen had a fantastic May last season also. People who think Hillman should get fired are slightly ridiculous considering the talent of other major league managers.
Gordon will get his stint in the minors when he comes back from rehab. If you think he should play SS then you have less knowledge of the game than I previously thought. Come July out of Jacobs, Teahen and Callaspo one will probably not be who they are currently. If that is the case then having someone like Gordon who has great god given talents will be a nice luxury. Maybe Alex will be the one struggling in Omaha, who knows.
Just don’t go hurt your back with that pat you are giving yourself because I didn’t see you predicting THE SPORKS rise to greatness.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
nah I didn't see Bloomquist or Zack being anything close to this
I did foresee Callaspo hitting .300 though (he was the Diamondbacks player of the year) and Teahen/Guillen were do for solid years. I always liked Butler better than Gordon, but I did expect COCO to hit better (but the walks are great)
Gordon playing SS is far fetched. Teahen playing 2nd still sounds good. I guess Callaspo playing SS is out of the question too. But if Aviles can’t put it together what do we do??
Trey assembles an interesting lineup almost daily and resting guys is important to him. Teahen has alot of value playing 3b, 2b, 1st, LF and RF
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
IF WALK RATIO IS SO IMPORTANT, WHY DON'T THEY SHOW IT ON THE SCOREBOARD???
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 8, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
HAHA man whoever started the Francour for Greinke trade rumors should be tried and found GUILTY
“If on-base percentage is so important, then why don’t they put it up on the scoreboard?” Francoeur says.
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, strikeout-walk ratio
for Royals batters is my old-school stats domain around here. Crisp is walking at an amazing rate – his BA is like .240 but his OBP is like .360. Bloomy is showing genuine bat control, and I’m going to jump on his bandwagon if he has a couple more good months. Crisp and Bloomy both have more BBs than Ks.
Even Jake and Buck are walking enough to keep their OBPs above .300; Jake, of course, is striking out as much as we knew he would. Callaspo’s stats have to come down sometime, but the guy can take a walk and does not strike out. Teabag has like twelve BBs and 14 Ks, a very good ratio.
José Guillén has been playing extremely well. Let’s hope his recent success shows a real change of attitude. He’s supposedly working out and watching his diet, so maybe he’ll play up to his potential. Which he never has done.
DDJ’s only walked like four times this year, but it looks like he’s breaking out of his slump. The guys whose K-BB ratio is terrible are Aviles and Olivo. I hope Aviles snaps out of it. Olivo should be demoted to Zack’s personal catcher and nothing more. IIRC, he’s got one walk and 21 Ks.
It's pronounced Poo-ZHOLS in Catalan.
It's been 1 and a half months chill out.
According to you Eric Hosmer was a Bust. People were making assumptions based on past performance. Coco is getting on base much better than his past would say and Jose Guillen is drawing more walks than usual. Maybe the biggest thing that was wrong on this board was the ACTUAL effect a hitting coach has on a team. But it is still early.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
What I didn't say all of the above???
I don’t even care if Hosmer can’t hit right now. I wanted Posey. I just would never draft someone in HS if I was the Royals and a college player has a chance to actually reach the Major League level while we still have Meche.
Not sure if you know but I have started threads about Guillen being our best player so I clearly like him. Hosmer a bust who knows Moustakas started off slow.
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I was only
saying you said the Hosmer thing. Which was a misquote by me. That is fine if you wanted Posey more but it is still very early in their careers to draw any assumptions about who was better or is going to be better. Currently Smoak looks like he might be the best player in that draft.
I know you like Guillen and that is fine with me because I don’t dislike him like many others on here. I just am not gonna jump and down after one month of games. He is a streaky player who will hit a wall sometime this season. If he can put up a .800+ OPS I will be happy.
I might have been in the small contingent against the Coco trade but he has never taken BB’s like this before and it was hard to believe that he would being so late in his career. It’s not like RamRam or Nunez have performed badly(I was for the Jacobs trade).
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
I like what you are saying
Yes, Nunez and Ramirez are lighting it up, but so are Cruz, Tejeda and Wright. So its a wash IMO. It’s easy to be negative on the Royals. It’s actually ironic; in trying to be positive about the FA moves, trades this winter it made me bitter reading all the exaggerated negative sentiment littered on here.
Its easy to say this:
Ramirez, Nunez were very good solid relievers that we traded for two OBP sieves, one who has great defense but never excelled in a leadoff role and the other rated the worst defensive first basemen in MLB! What about Shealy or Kila!
How can we sign Farnsworth for 10 million for two years when he’s been so terrible (still don’t understand it)
The bloomquist signing was the most useless signing? What is the need for him? We have Callaspo
I might simply putting a positive spin on the mistakes WE ALL can acknowledge
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand what you are saying
I was one of the few on here that was in favor of every offseason move besides Farnsworth. I even reasoned myself into semi-liking the Bloomquist move. Until they didn’t play him at SS in spring training. Nearly all the negative things said however were backed with statistical evidence. I give the guys credit for that, they don’t use their gut or eye like some (me included) they go with statistical evidence and reason for that one can’t get too upset after the dust clears.
I might be wrong in the future but to me the BIGGEST offseason factor thus far has to be Kevin Seitzer. This team has had a completely different approach from Spring Training on. Seitzer and Trey and GMDM can downplay it in interviews and give the players credit all they want but we didn’t see anything like this out of any of these guys prior to this season. The only one who had a solid patient approach last year has been on the DL for sometime now.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
Yeah Seitzer always hit well in Nintendo RBI Baseball (circa 1987) when I was like 5
Also the Diamond backs just fired their coach staff that lead them to the 2007 NL Championship game. Their young guns can’t hit at all and its funny to think that Seitzer was their hitting coach early in that 2007 season
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
suckerfish is wonderful fried on top of rice, with a hint of lime. mmm mm
"I can resist everything but temptation." - oscar wylde
I'm pretty sure that
the Greinke signing was widely rejoiced here. The opinion that it was only “good” was in the small minority.
by Trey Hillman's Chin on May 8, 2009 9:11 AM EDT reply actions
but the over popular post.
The 2009 Official You Got Rocked by the Royals and Sent to the Minors List
1. Josh Rupe TEX April 17
2. David Purcey TOR May 1
3. Brian Burres TOR May 1
4. Bryan Bullington TOR May 1
I think the opinion that it was only good
was based on how clearly important it was to lock Zack up (or maybe the number of years or something). If everyone agrees its the right thing to do, is it a great GM move? I think some people classify great GM moves as those that turn out surprisingly well. IMO Moore is cruising for “great move” recognition with the Coco deal, assuming he continues to play this well.
But yeah, I agree, everyone was pretty damn happy about the locking up Zack.
by stuckinstl12 on May 8, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
The deal in and of itself is good
The fact that Zack was willing to do it makes it better and thats where Moore/Hillman and the whole organization come into play
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
are we
still doing that? i wasn’t sure. missed my ‘RR talking points’ this morning.
"red bull is amaZing" -Coco Crisp
I agree. It's not confrontational enough.
For a truly great Gobble post, the gauntlet needs be be thrown down. Definitively and forcefully. Personal challenges must be issued. Fanhood (or even manhood/womanhood) needs to be questioned. Honor must be forsaken.
This one just didn’t have it for me. Sorry, Gobble.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on May 8, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah sorry
I wanted to do that but i already been warned that i"d be banned
no more threats just politeness
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
this website is totally voluntary
you don’t have to read it
you don’t have to comment
so what’s the point of coming on to tell everyone how wrong they are?
I can understand debate a specific issue
but you didn’t frame it like that, you framed it as the whole board is wrong about everything…
well where does that leave us?
if its that bad, why waste your time with it?
No No not all - and i can understand how a fanbase can be overly negative about some things
Maybe that’s natural. But what I was stating above is more misconceptions that I still notice on here. For example, obvious Guillen isn’t the 3rd worst outfielder in MLB. And Kila/Shealy couldn’t have filled Jacobs shoes in the lineup since Kila is hitting .222 and Shealy hasn’t even homered in the minors. Greinke’s contract means everything for he would have gotten more than 20 million dollars after next year.
And I’ll wait til Gordon comes back. If he can keep that .360 OBP and hit 12-15 homeruns when he gets back I will be pleased
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
With the bat, Guillen is not the 3rd worst OFer.
But in the field, he’s pretty close. His arm keeps him from the bottom, but he is pretty slow out there.
FWIW
On Fangraphs, he has 0.3 WAR which puts him 27th in AL in outfielders. But, that’s in a 3 page list of anyone Fangraphs classifies as an outfielder – including Bloomy with 0.7 (I assume this is from all his appearances on field so I don’t understand how they do the positional adjustment on him). Also, if you just ask for Qualified Players only, Guillen drops off the list, I presume he hasn’t had enough appearances yet.
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic. [I was right! We're hitting .265 and we are fairly orgasmic right now.]
The General Theory of Royaltivity
you get serious props
especially after Guillens clown show last nite
by GobbleforCyoung on May 9, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
i was jsut messin with Will
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
good discourse
Everyone has different opinions on the following topics:
Guillen’s actual worth
Jacobs/Crips trades
Gordon’s role after injury
It’s nice to hear them
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it is nice.
Joakim starter
Where is Luke
$4.25M/year for Farnsy (oops I think we’re almost all agreeing that sucked)
Buck vs. Olivo (personal catcher for Zack)
there’s lots of them.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
I think what most people are saying, though, Gobble
is that it would be much better if you simply focused on each one of those topics with it’s own post, rather than a generalized, overreactive, “these are all the ridiculous opinions that everyone on RR has” post…with absolutely no specific position, logical reasoning, or evidence to articulate your contrasting opinion(s).
If you want to have a meaninful debate on, for example, “Guillen’s actual worth” then I would encourage you to write up a well-reasoned, thoughtful, and detailed post about that particular topic. I think you’ll find that most RR commenters would then take you much more seriously. Just a little advice.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on May 8, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
(stands up and claps)
I second that, I don’t even disagree with everything you’ve written, but it’s pretty hard to either argue or agree with anything because of the way you posted it. Maybe that is what you intended, though.
by I need more Esteban on May 8, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to clarify - these aren't my thoughts at all that I started the thread with
this is just the impression I’ve been given after reading some comments. Some are paraphrased, others are verbatim.
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I did elaborate on one item in this thread below
“What has Gordon done but improve his walk ratio? He strikes out 25% of his AB’s and has a career average of .250 and now he’s hurt. Longoria is two years younger and is dominating the AL, but its taboo on Royals Review to suggest Gordon could be a bust and needs to be sent to the minors.”
And I previously started a “Guillen is our best hitter I dare you to challenge this thread” – and he’s up there this year.
But its not my intent to debate over all of these things its the sum that carries weight….When you enjoy browsing a site and you come across statements like, “Gordon is our best hitter, Guilen is the 3rd worst OF in baseball, Jacobs/Crisp make us worse and Greinke was paid too much” it leaves you wondering.
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
No one
Will suggested that the deal would have been great rather than good if the Royals had gotten an option year in addition. Gobbleforcyoung can’t get over that.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Listen, a lot of people disagree with you
Get over it. Don’t whine about it. If you want to say that Gordon is no good, then say it. Don’t whine and complain about how people disagree with you. And please don’t waste our time with fanposts about nothing. And this one was about nothing basically.
The immoderate moderator
well like Will said
it is voluntary
this website is totally voluntary
you don’t have to read it
you don’t have to comment
so what’s the point of coming on to tell everyone how wrong they are?
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
by BillyMojo on May 8, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
well this post was really about me "whining" about the extreme negativity and exagerrations I've read
And BTW if Gordon cannot come back with a .350 OBP and hit 12 homeruns than yes I will say Gordon is no good
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah there's something of an overexpectation that I've sensed about that
But it may be coming from observers who didn’t see what they are comparing it to. It’s always ‘felt’ to me like people are expecting Alex Gordon to duplicate George Brett. Well, to duplicate: it’s already too late, that has failed; it’s taken too long. But in the first place, just like George Brett did not “duplicate” Ted Williams, Alex Gordon never would have duplicated George Brett.
Second place: it’s just my perception of all the hype. My vision is skewed by the simple fact that I got to grow up watching George Brett, Willie Wilson, Amos Otis, John Mayberry, et al. Even Jamie Quirk was the purported STUD his rookie year. Was Quirk bad? No. Average? Well for the era, maybe a shade above average and at times bordering on pretty good.
If Alex Gordon turns into a Jamie Quirk, it’s a fail compared to all the perceived expectations.
“Whining” ??
Hell back in the day we didn’t have message boards to post to, and there were a lot more call-in radio talk shows. I’ll never forget the all-day shitstorm my dad started when George Brett got a one-million per year lifetime contract. He called in and stated the fact that George was an overpaid million dollar crybaby who could not work everyday due to something as lame as hemmorhoids.
Dad proceeded to sit back and laugh at the ensuing rage from callers, and the station called him back and gave him eight Plaza Level Reserve tickets, two each for four different games. Oh, good times.
I don’t think you were whining. I think it was similar to dad; just sick of all the same ol’ discussions and making a point, then all of us running behind it like a flock of sheep with it.
Opinions vary.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
I love you Billy
you are now BY FAR my favorite message board homie
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Also - as far as Gordon is concerned
When I hear the “we passed on Lincecum for Hochevar talk” I laugh.
A total of 9 teams passed on Lincecum, but only one team passed on Longoria. We did this because of Gordon
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
And Longoria > Gordon is all hindsight
Did you think it was a stupid draft choice at the time? No, but you’re whining about it now. And NOBODY is saying that Gordon = Longoria. We just see talent and production from his second major league season at a young age. Given his talent, his production should only improve.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
again...its not whining its actually sadness
If when should could would…..
but you can’t deny if Longoria was in KC the Royals would be considered WS contenders right now
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It would be nice to have Lincecum and Wieters as well
As well as every other player who the Royals could have drafted but didn’t, including Pujols, Schilling, Jeter, etc., etc.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
can you remember how much $$
they got Lincecum to sign for?
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
$2.025M
The issue with Lincecum wasn’t signability or price. The reason he fell as far as he did in the draft is that he’s a short pitcher with odd mechanics. Many were concerned (and still are concerned) that he woudln’t be able to handle the physical stress of 200+ ip over multiple seasons and his arm would break down.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
oh yeah i get that
he does look to say the least unorthodox and we’d already experienced a kid of just a few more years of age with a ‘quirky’ behavior…
Lincecum reminds me of all the skater boys that hang around my youngest daughter.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
can they pitch like Timmah?
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 8, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
hell they can't strike me out
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
My favorite
is that while Brett and Schmidt were drafted back-to-back… the Royals could have had both.
Two HoF 3Bs?
CONFUSION IN THE CLUBHOUSE
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 8, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah that too.
is it my misperception that people thought Gordon would be “the next Brett” ?
I know there are far more underinformed people talking about this and I’ve posted somewhere else that there are MANY many people in the Metro area that are nearly in diametric opposition to those of us who post here regarding knowledge of what is going on with their home team…
like those that are saying “Royals? they suck. they can’t win any games. They should fire that manager that Bobby Bell or whatever his name is”
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
It was the opinion of pretty much every analyst that Gordon would become a great player
(multiple All-Star appearances and maybe an MVP or two). He still may become great. He’s already good.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah that's where I was going
If all he does is turn in a Quirk career its a fail compared to those projections.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
You bet
But Gobble4cyoung is giving up on Gordon now. He’s saying that Gordon is merely a AAA player, so bench him or demote him. He’s a great talent who performed well last year (check out the numbers) and should be expected to improve (check out every projection for him). So the question is basically whether he’s a merely good player or if he’ll become a very good or great player.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
See convince me?
What has Gordon done but improve his walk rate???? Yes he gets on base. Thats great, What else? What was his average with runners in scoring position????
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
He improved his walk rate, OBP, batting average, isolated power and SLG while providing decent defense. And I hope you are joking about his average with RISP. But I’m pretty sure you are not.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I'm not.....and Gordon has a below average fielding % too
He hits .222 with RISP… How is that a joke? It sucks. He improved his OBP because ONLY BECAUSE he improved his walk rate, his hitting didn’t improve
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm done
I can’t do the remedial stats class thing again.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
make it quick
he hits .222 with RISP. That sucks any way you slice it. I don’t want to hear well RBI is just a function of the people hitting before getting on base.
There is a clutchness element to it.
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
i think the point is
most analysts now see avg w/ RISP as somewhat random luck more than a repeatable skill
Its just not true
I’m a Mets fan too all I EVER HEAR on talk radio is Cano’s or David Wright’s having a shitty BA w/RISP…Wright has had a shitty one his whole career.
Pretty well respected baseball “analysts” michael Kay, joe beningo, mike francesca…and they interview coaches like Girardi and Fancona and ask them about “average with RISP” all the time….
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, so you hear about BA w/RISP a lot on talk radio
That should tell you something.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you are just missing the whole point of modern baseball analysis
Those people you cite only know conventional wisdom. Part of what sabrmetrics is about is showing that alot of that was wrong
Yes i agree alot of it is wrong
and clearly i dont’ understand all of it. Perhaps I’m stubborn and rely on the traditional measures that are outdated (I’m sure this is a major reason why you guys think im a moron lol)
…..however be careful not to place too much emphasis on the scientific date with the advanced stats. There are certain things that are difficult to measure or calculate.
yes Bannister had a ridiculous BABIP that gave him luck, and the various metrics for ERA neutralizing defense/park environment
But there is still no doubt in my mind (or many of the mets fans I know minds) that David Wright just isn’t clutch (and Beltran is ) when runners are in scoring position and the pressure of NY might have everything to do with it.
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
and part of that is just the fun of sports
numbers don’t bring the same emotional response that traditional feelings do for most. But i think where alot of the disconnect in these posts is coming from is exactly that, what ‘is true’, ‘might be true’, and what you ‘want to be true’.
and people care so much
because they want to know how to draft next year in their fantasy league
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
but seriously
a lot of the sabr-types (maybe most?) developed their models for exactly that reason, fantasy baseball…
whats the difference
between fantasy baseball and World of Warcraft?
get in the dugout and manage on a MLB level
get outta mom’s basement and go live by the sword for real.
ROTFLMFFAO
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
True
The advanced metrics are obviously better means for analysis than the traditional ones. But they aren’t bulletproof.
Maybe trying to be devils advocate doesn’t stir up much debate and is fallacy, but sometimes it works.
We are hitting really well, better than we have in years without Alex Gordon. And i didn’t like what i saw from him as a pro….i’m going to put two and two together and draw a conclusion
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
nothing wrong with devil's advocate
but tone in writing is so important for these types of things, it really derailed your (legitimate) points
yeah a lot of that has been wrong for
a long time and there used to be a sort of mystical belief that there were certain individuals like Whitey Herzog that just “got it” and a boatload of other individuals that just “didn’t get it” — and now we have people coming out of the woodwork that all of a sudden are “getting it”
I think it’s neat.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
Gobble
Read all the remedial posts on this topic, and then explain what you don’t understand. That way, you won’t use something like BA w RISP to try to prove a point.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
Another example is
they are all blaming the Yankees season on their hitters failing to deliver the big hit, i.e. a hit with a runner in scoring position
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
An example of what?
You’re using an amorphous “they” as an expert?
If “they” all told you that Derek Jeter was a great defensive shortstop, would you believe “them”?
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
They = the mob
talk show hosts/most callers
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
So
why are you using them as evidence to prove a point?
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
Because I don't think they are just total idiots
that have no idea what they are talking about because they don’t understand any advanced metrics.
There is something to say for millions of fans seeing Cano, or Mark Texeira or whoever strike out or line out consistently.
When i hear, “Cano has to be traded, he hasn’t had a big hit his entire career, his career average with RISP is ____”"
you tend to thinks its not just something that is totally random. Becuase in actuality its not. How many times have players been great and got to NY and just became unclutch??
I’ll give you one. AROD!! Maybe its a NY thing, and over here we value BA w/RISP more than anything else!
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
First of all
why wouldn’t it be OBP w RISP, or OPS w RISP, or (best) wOBA w RISP?
All three of these are far superior to BA with RISP.
The problem is that there is a commonly believed myth that New York media pressure just gets in the heads of certain players and they are unable to cope with it. This is great for bedtime stories and fairytales.
Unfortunately, there’s not much statistical evidence to back it up. For instance, Alex Gordon’s OBP with RISP is .360.
David Wright’s BA w RISP: .299
David Wright’s BA w no men on: .306
David Wright’s OBP w RISP: .393
David Wright’s OBP w no men on: .383
None of this supports anything that you or the NY media have claimed.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
Wright is 7 points lower with RISP,
obviously a choker.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
David Wrights BAw/RISP last year was .245
Also consider his average in september is .350 the past two years, so he just picks up when it was too late…
You have nothing to say about AROD because he truly sucks in the playoffs…oh just like a David Wright who hit .216 with a .688 OPS in the playoffs…
Not sure, but i can say who gives a F about Gordon’s OBP or w/OBP because WALKING WITH RUNNERS IN SCORING POSITION is not driving in runs.
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Not necessarily
loading the bases or 1st and 2nd, 1st and third is better than nothing, but its not a hit. …..
alot of it is fans in NY want you to step it up when there are runners in scoring position or in Oct.
That is why Reggie Jackson revered like a god here
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
A-Rod
OPS w RISP: .957
OPS w no men on: .954
In games within one run: .981
In tie games: .971
In games where run margin >4: ..954
Career: .967
Postseason: .844
ALCS: 1.024
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
Well .844 postseason is why he gets so much criticism
25 million a year should warrant an OBP of .900.
DC I agree the statistics seem to support the players against all these “morons”
but they are fans and have feelings and comment on what they see
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
several posts above
you just argued that the “fans and their feelings” are legitimate measures of players OVER statistics
Now, in the post immediately above, you are stating the opposite.
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic. [I was right! We're hitting .265 and we are fairly orgasmic right now.]
The General Theory of Royaltivity
what
fans feelings matter because they have an opinion on what they observe
its not always accurate but its important because thats what they call in and talk about
by GobbleforCyoung on May 9, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
but
I’m pretty sure you used those opinions as a credible measure of player performance further above
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic. [I was right! We're hitting .265 and we are fairly orgasmic right now.]
The General Theory of Royaltivity
I"m pretty sure
our own Mr. Buck had an RBI walk just last weekend.
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic. [I was right! We're hitting .265 and we are fairly orgasmic right now.]
The General Theory of Royaltivity
i've never played one so I don't know
I’d probably get pwned
Is there any such thing as “clutch” in fantasy baseball?
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
no he didn't hit better, he drew more walks
he had the same batting average (wait .250 & .260 is about the same) + more walks = higher OBP
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
currently is he not a AAA player?
put up some great numbers last year and this year had been playing in pain. I’ve got to see him on the field before I can buy into anything and I haven’t seen enough on the field yet.
Is it a problem to leave him on an extended minor league rehab program? I don’t want to see him rushed back to the big club until he’s truly ready and can put up the numbers that Callaspo is putting up right now.
I’m too much an old fart to put a lot of faith in projections yet, but even being an old dog I do learn new tricks. As soon as I start understanding some more of these advanced stats and start believing in them more, then I’ll have more faith.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
No, he's not a AAA player. Not at all.
Yes, he put up good numbers last year. Are you suggesting that from his 7 games this year, he’s merely a AAA player? A 7-game data sample doesn’t tell you anything reliable or meaningful about how good a player is.
He should be in KC when he’s healthy and his strength has been built back up. Given the talent he has and the season he had last year, he belongs in KC when healthy. Why on earth would they give him more time in the minors? When you’ve become a good major league player, how do you benefit from going to the minors?
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
my point is
in AAA would they not evaluate precisely that? game readiness?
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
He should be in KC when he’s healthy and his strength has been built back up. Given the talent he has and the season he had last year, he belongs in KC when healthy.
yeah that’s what I mean.
I need to see him healthy in game situations regularly. In AAA. Where I give a rat’s ass less whether or not we win the PCL (sorry Minda) not in the AL Central where I do give a rats ass.
Where currently we have guys getting the job done.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
I hope Gordon comes back and proves me wrong
I was too hard on him in the beginning of the year not because he failed to match the excessive expectations, but because of his injury…
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Clearly he'll be in a minor league rehab assignment for a while
(just like ARod playing in extended spring training after the same operation)
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
okay I see
but that’s what I meant. His current status is Rehab. That by definition to me says that at best he is a AAA player. Or less. I based none of that on stats. I based that on “health status” so I was arguing a separate point.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
But that isn't what Gobbleforcyoung is saying and I think you know that
Gobbleforcyoung is saying that Gordon is merely a AAA-quality player, not that he is currently rehabbing, therefore not on the 25-man roster.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
ummm
I think this is personal between you and Gobble. and ya know FWIW you both have valid points as far as I can tell.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
I'm just following the thread up
If you follow this line of comments-and-replies up, you’ll see that the whole “AAA player” issue came from Gobble4CY saying that. And of course Gobble4CY doesn’t have valid points. I’ve yet to see even one from him. He doesn’t think. He knows next to nothing about baseball. He’s only passingly familiar with the Royals and he comes over here every now and then to blurt out comments which are not the product of even the most basic thoughtful process.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
but damn if it don't start an etertaining shitstorm!
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
One could argue that he’s entertaining. I’ll give you that. Kind of like the freak show at the carnival.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
my point
understood by you there precisely!
but then again your vehement concern with opposing him is equally entertaining.
(also enlightening, your posts are educating me.)
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
I don't suffer certain types of people gladly
I’m not proud of that, but I am who I am. :|
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
you saying my opinions are freaky??
I thought you said you liked some of my points???
And for the record I said Gordon was hitting like a AAA player BEFORE the injury was disclosed….and wait, his .095 average is more like A
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
How meaningful is 7 games worth of stats?
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
stats compiled when it's now obvious
that he was playing in pain? they are worthless.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
hence my frustrations with the med staff
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
Yes thats why I lightened up
and am hoping from a nice rebound such as ..350+ OBP, 12-15 homeruns and stolen bases
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
crap i thought we wanted that out of him in 81 games not 162
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
They are also pretty worthless
even if the player is playing in complete comfort.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
granted
but it’s a fact that he wasn’t 100% physically. so even more worthless than ‘small sample size’ worthless
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
When is Gordon supposed to be back
All Star break, You can’t expect much from Gordon but 12-15 HR’s or SB’s. He wouldn’t necessarily have to build upon last years OBP because of his injury.
It sucks with all the doubt surrounding him you have to chalk up this year to injury and we’ll find out more in 2010
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
but I would rather him heal completely and not be ruined
by trying to bring him back to the big club till he is really needed. I’m not going to look it all up to document how many times that has fucked up a prospect. It’s happened way too many times and should be common knowledge.
Do we need him back yet?
Make sure he’s okay first and protect your prospect.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
well AROD went through the exact procedure
If he struggles to come back (and Yankee nation expects him to be their Saviour) we should definitely consider platooning Gordon with Teahen
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
See Billy
Look at the abuse I put up with…keep in mind he says all that and he’s a moderator and banned ME before!
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
...and probably again
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah it must feel good to just get rid of me based on a whim
I have been polite since my Farnsworth rant, I have only defended myself. TRUTH SPEAKS
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
which basically is FUN to sustain
in any way possible.
(I’m not quite an ornery ol bastard yet, but I’m learning)
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
Does it hurt you to say that Gordon is atleast kind of a bust?
Isn’t that the truth now?
Did I not say Guillen will be better this and have an equivalent statistical year similar to his days in Seattle, Washington or Anaheim???
Didnt I say Jacobs Power will be a boon to our lineup???
Did I not say that Greinke’s contract is the best thing that has happened to the Royals organization in years, and wow, there is more buzz surrounding the team in quite some time?
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Responses
Gordon is a bust if you wanted him to be as good as Brett as soon as he joined the league. He is already above average and projects to get better. He will likely be a huge asset to this team.
You act as if your Guillen prediction is correct. He has looked great so far. But it is May 8. If he is still posting these stats in October September, color me convinced.
Jacobs has been valuable mostly because he has kept his OBP around league average to complement his power. If his OBP drops down to the low .300s, he will no longer be the asset you think he is.
I have no argument with you over Greinke.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
And to be honest DC
As much as I like to believe I think one of the two will fall off dramatically but a career year out of Jacobs OR a 2005-2007 season from Guillen is the most logical.
Now if both deliver ….
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
not that I was fully grown yet
but I do remember grown men saying the same things about George Brett when he came up to replace Paul Schaal. but I already covered that in another post. Defending the effect of pitching coaches.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
oops batting coaches but i defend Bob Mac too.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
Your odd, uninformed opinions just baffle me
What is “kind of a bust”? That he hasn’t reached all of his potential at age 25? How long have you been following baseball? First, most prospects don’t reach what was seen as their max potential. That never surprises me. Second, he likely hasn’t topped out yet.
Yeah, you said that about Guillen. Is he going to hit like this for the entire season? Or do we get to claim we’re proven right about out season predictions on May 8? Is that how it works? Or do we still have the vast majority of the season to play out? Good lord you are dense.
Please read some books about baseball. Something, anything. The weird part is that you actually think you know something about baseball and this team.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
On that note Gobble,
and as an honest suggestion, you should read Baseball Between the Numbers. This was previously recommended by someone else, but if you’re actually interested in learning more about the game, this book is a great place to start.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
And to clarify
I’m not questioning your knowledge of the game in the sense that you haven’t followed baseball all your life — on the contrary, I’m sure you have. I’m saying that you might find yourself interested by the book and a lot of the arguments made here if you know more about the underlying reasoning.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
I actually don't care too much about baseball
but i love the Mets and Royals. I was actually a big time lacrosse player at college, which helped me attain a pretty prestigious degree at Vassar College.
I’m actually pretty intelligent and kind of come on here to mess around
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Is Vassar D-III?
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
yeah
lacrosse is different, Its mostly D1 or D3. There are only handful of competitive D2 teams and several D3 teams are much better than D1 teams.
For example, Salisbury iis one of the top 10 teams overall and beat D1 teams like Delaware, Towson, UMBC and even Maryland/Duke in scrimmages
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Well we beat Duke in a scrimmage
I don’t think those mean much
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
I'm a retired USN submarine officer
and despise any sports uniform with NY on it.
but we can all get along!
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
A lacrosse player who doesn't care much about baseball
That sounds about right.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
but I'll take a look at that book
If Alex Gordon is on the cover I won’t touch it :)
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow the moderator abuse continues
Even if Guillen hits .280 with a .350 OBP and 20 homeruns 90 RBI. He has done that 3 out of the last 5 years but its “dense” to think he might be able to repeat it?
Kind of a bust for a Super Prospect like Gordon???
Zimmerman
Longoria
Both Uptons (Justin this year, BJ last year)
Votto
Braun
Hanley
Pedroia
Mauer
Quentin
If its dense to suggest that Gordon is “kind of a bust” when comparing him to the above list your being naive
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
So, what do you think the Royals
would get in exchange if they offered Gordon for trade to any taker? Wait, let me ask it this way:
How many teams would line up to try to trade?
And, what would they offer?
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic. [I was right! We're hitting .265 and we are fairly orgasmic right now.]
The General Theory of Royaltivity
Suppose you would have to wait until he came back healthy
And teams determine he can still reach closer to his potential (of being the next George Brett)
He has about 4 years of team control left and a relative reasonable salary…
Factor in other teams need for a player with some power/speed.
Maybe matt kemp
by GobbleforCyoung on May 9, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
and all the KC press and to some extent even the Royals themselves
branded Gordon the “second coming” and built all the unreasonable expectations and hype.
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic. [I was right! We're hitting .265 and we are fairly orgasmic right now.]
The General Theory of Royaltivity
thank you, George Brett
way to make expectations realistic: “I hope one day I will be compared to Alex Gordon.”
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 9, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
shouldn't the argument be about Hochevar vs. Longoria?
If the Royals had drafted Longoria, they could have moved him to second or short, or moved Gordon to the OF
Or the best option: both of the as a catching platoon
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 8, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
But what about Buck and Olivo?
Even MORE confusion in the clubhouse! What about a “catching rotation,” where each pitcher would just have his own personal backstop? Perfect. The only problem would be waiting another 2-3 years for Moustakas to round out the fifth catching rotation slot.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on May 8, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Buck and Olivo are the Dh platoon
Jacobs to 3rd
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 8, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
and that is funny as hell
but you still can’t have my Bud Light
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
I would suggest that you desist with the whining and move back to baseball talk. If you want to argue that Gordon is awful, bad, ok, good, great or whatever, that’s fine. Just make the argument. Don’t whine about the majority of people disagreeing with you. Sometimes that happens. Deal with it and make your baseball arguments.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not whining
I don’t think you were whining. I think it was similar to dad; just sick of all the same ol’ discussions and making a point, then all of us running behind it like a flock of sheep with it.
Opinions vary.
And i got a defender
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
It's cool that you found one person to agree with you
One.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
well it actually is pretty cool.
hey its a start
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
well hell love me or not
all I did was state my opinion of how I perceived your statement.
I’m one of those guys with a positive outlook. You’d probably gather by just reading posts that I’m nothing but agreeable, but ask my wife that’s so totally not the case.
I’ll take the time to post something if I am in agreement with it no matter who posted it. disagreements? I’ve got better things to do unless it’s something really close to home like the one I got off on the other day in the RCI post about Hoch coming up and Meche’s back.
either way, both of you guys post some insightful and interesting stuff, albeit in madly contrasting styles.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
all I did was state my opinion of how I perceived your statement.
You’re still new here, so you haven’t been subjected to lots of Gobble4cyoung’s whining about how Guillen is great, Gordon sucks and we’re all idiots for disagreeing with him. And whining about disagreements is Gobble4cyoung’s favorite thing. He’s shocked that people disagree with his opinions which he sees as unassailable, so he complains about it until he gets so worked up that he starts insulting people and calling them names. He’s been suspended before on this site for this reason. And he was banned before under a different username.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
no way...
I didn’t realize this was a return from exhile
how dare you not tell me
friendship over
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 8, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Credit goes to jonfmorse for the catch on that one
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I've read a bunch of em going way back
and in the general scheme of things, online communities like this are pretty much cookie cutter; what with the human nature and personality types being fairly consistently categorizable (that’s not really a word). I kinda get the idea of who has the ‘level head’ think it out approach and who has a more ‘emotional’ approach, and the %age mixture of the two in any individual… Neither is wrong and the combination of all together makes for entertaining debates.
yeah the first day I was looking at these I thought he was posting some really radical shit and in reading it and watching the retorts I thought wow this is good.
Again today, I see it as a catalyst that brings out some very insightful statements from a broad base of well informed people.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
true I would say pretty "emotional/liberal/radical" % is very high in my posts
But what you dad did about Brett’s salary is just plain awesome!!!
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
and that first day i saw his name i cracked up laughing
like is this guy for serious or is that a freaakin joke
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
What????
You really need to think about what you just said and apologize ..I had one rant about Farnsworth being good in which insulted people and got foul because i was getting attacked from everyone.
I have never ever had another screename than GobbleforCyoung and made it last year after Jimmy Gobble gave up 10 runs in one inning to the whitesox. Like I said, I don’t mind people disagreeing with me but you jsut went out of line.
You banned me so don’t act like i was arbitrarily banned based on somemore justifiable RR review board ….
Devilfingers, Billy, anyone else…..I had this exchange with NY Royal….please tell him that that its more out of line for someone to call me a retart than for me to say shut up prick:
Here’s the deal, when kcbottom said “retarditis” he got close to the line (the line between what is acceptable and what is unacceptable). You jumped way over the line when you said “shut up prick.” And you are a habitual line stepper. You’ve been suspended in the past for crossing the line. If kcbottom crosses the line, he’ll be warned.
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't believe you read that either
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
what now you are saying i can't read!
LOL
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I am so confused by you
Signed, DCDumbass
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
DC welcome to the party
no you are not a dumbass and you have my permission to stop referring to yourself as that very mean name i called you
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
i haven't made anything personal and i think this has been fun today
“so he complains about it until he gets so worked up that he starts insulting people and calling them names. He’s been suspended before on this site for this reason. And he was banned before under a different username.”
find me one place on this thread that i called someone a name! what was my other username???? I never had one…
Moar Optimism NOW
So few fair weather fans on this blog. It worries me. What happens if we get no hit and go on a 12 game losing skid this year??
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway - An Onymous
those will tell you its impossible to have anything more than a 4 game losing streak with Greinke
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Greinke will have a bad day. This year.
Maybe only one but it will happen.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
Jesus
Start behaving like adults.
It's pronounced Poo-ZHOLS in Catalan.
Now you're just being ridiculous and unrealistic
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Now hold on
I’m not the most frequent poster, but I do read just about everything that gets put on this board. So, I’m somewhat mystified by the OP’s post and comments.
Alex Gordon is the savior and the best player in Royals history……he should be given the key to the city and no one should ever challenge him for 3B in the next 10 years as long as he hits 15 HR’s, Strikes out only 120 times and hits .260.
Also, Guillen is the worst OF in MLB, Farnsworth worst reliever in MLB history, and Moore and Hillman need to get fired. Moore traded two future MVP candidates in Nunez and Ramirez for two horrible, OBP deficient players and Hillman’s ridiculos coaching has cost the Royals 5 wins and we should be 23-6 without him. Greinke’s contract was only good, not a great move (although Buster Olney said Moore should be given executive of the year just for locking him before this year).
Then in a later comment:
Just to clarify – these aren’t my thoughts at all that I started the thread with this is just the impression I’ve been given after reading some comments. Some are paraphrased, others are verbatim.
Really? I don’t ever recall reading that Alex Gordon is the “savior” or is “the best player in Royals history.”
As far as Guillen and Farnsworth go, I don’t think anyone here has called them the worst in MLB or worst in history. I believe most of the animosity directed at both of them is due to their respective salaries (i.e. we’re not getting production relative to $$$ paid).
It’s true, some people may have gotten emotional in the heat of games or after crushing defeats and called for Hillman’s and Moore’s heads. I’ve usually stayed away from those. I fall on the side of hoping that they learn when mistakes are made and try to avoid them in the future.
It’s extremely unlikely that anyone said that Nunez and Ramirez are MVP candidates. Historically speaking, Crisp and Jacobs haven’t been the greatest at OBP. It’s nice that they are doing better so far this year.
From comments that I’ve read, some people believe that Hillman’s “ridiculous coaching” has cost 3 games (not 5). I would say questionable decisions have cost the Royals opportunities on 2 very winnable games (note that I said “opportunities” because we can’t be certain that we would have won if different decisions were made).
Oh, and I LOVE Greinke’s contract.
As I see it, the OP made a couple mistakes here. First, he’s greatly exaggerated (and/or taken out of context) comments made here. If these statements are “verbatim”, what threads were they seen in and who said them? (BTW, “paraphrasing” means to use different words but to keep the meaning the same or similar.) It’s possible that someone was being sarcastic, and the OP is taking them too seriously. Secondly, the OP has also generalized these exaggerated comments to apply to everyone on “this board”. As a member of this board, I don’t appreciate it when words that I never said (or typed) are attributed to me. Even if one person said that Nunez and Ramirez were potential MVPs, I doubt that anyone here would have agreed.
So, was the point of all of this just to start arguements? Gee thanks……..moving on now.
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel! - Homer Simpson
by aHorseWithNoName on May 8, 2009 4:54 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
make that
“arguments” (I try to avoid spelling errors!) E-aHorseWithNoName!
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel! - Homer Simpson
by aHorseWithNoName on May 8, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
speaking of horses
If Zack keeps pitching complete games, can we start calling him a horse?
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic. [I was right! We're hitting .265 and we are fairly orgasmic right now.]
The General Theory of Royaltivity
no
we’ll start calling horses “Zacks.”
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by Matt Klaassen on May 9, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe the post should have been titled "some on this board feel"
But why?
Why was there a rebellion over the Nunez/Ramirez trades if they aren’t MVP candidates
All of Farny’s losses, when Horam started and when Meche was left in too long are ALL attributed to coaching blunders giving Trey 5 direct losses
Gordon to be considered a future MVP and even our best hitter at this time is a joke, and I’m t
ired of hearing it and i want to see it.
Guillen was calculated as the 3rd worst OF in MLB according to Joe Poz
royals review said the Greinke’s contract was not great, and went on to say we overpaid based on his arbitration rates, when considering that the best pitcher in baseball in 2009 is locked up for 4 more years and could have made more than 38 million IN TWO YEARS after his arbitration is up – Moore is arleady being called executive of the year JUST FOR THAT
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Again with the exaggerating
Rebellion over RamRam and Nunez? Really? Where was this rebellion?
Future MVP? Best hitter? Who said this and where? I cannot recall that ever being said.
One poster says Greinke’s contract was not that great, and it is attributed to this entire forum?
I don’t understand.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Thank you
and – Joe Poz isn’t (as far as I know) a poster on RR. So, please don’t attribute his writings to us (he’d probably be insulted).
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel! - Homer Simpson
by aHorseWithNoName on May 8, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
And he wasn't wrong
Jose Guillen was not very good last year.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
yeah 20 homeruns and 97 rbi isn't terrible for the Royals
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
.318 wOBA
that puts him below:
Butler, Callaspo, Grudzielanek, Gordon, Dejesus, Aviles among regulars.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
Stop using your made up stats
Stats that were made up in the 19th century tell you what is really important.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting
we should just reamend the Bill of Rights/Constitution too and replace them with metric law because they were made up like the idiots who created BA and RBI in the 19th century
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Poor analogy
even in jest
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
Possibly the worst analogy I've ever read
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
No its not
if you don’t see any parallel between YOUR OUTDATED BASEBALL STATISTICS and the commonly outdated BILL OF RIGHTS then I don’t know.
It was the worst analogy you ever heard because it was from me and you will never agree with anything I ever say because you will be forever biased against me.
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn't make sense
that’s why it’s the worst analogy ever.
I honestly can’t figure out why people have responded to this post. You seem like an alter ego of someone that is just trolling to stir up trouble.
by AxDxMx on May 8, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
bingo
there’s no way you’re actually defending that abortion of an analogy.
"red bull is amaZing" -Coco Crisp
abortion?
nice word.
The analogy works, even if it’s a poor one.
Old baseball statistics need to be reamended
The Bill of Rights need to be reamended
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
You keep using that word
It’s not a word. Wouldn’t “amended” work? One of the smaller reasons that your analogy was horrendous. “works, even if it is a poor one” Yeah, like TPJ as a major league hitter.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I like to use interesting words.
One of my professors used it once in an American Politics seminar.
Babylon dictionary says its a word:
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
How do you "reamend" a stat?
If you can’t “amend” a stat (and you can’t), then how do you “reamend” it? I’m not going to get into a vocabulary or grammar discussion with you. Your use of words certainly is….interesting.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
You missed a pretty good discourse
It was nasty at times, but it turned out ok.
I think I’ll admit that Gordon was slightly better than Guillen last year – but that’s as far as I’ll go
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Good lord. What does that even mean?
I’ve taken a few constitutional law classes in my day, but I’ve never had the privilege of learning about a “reamendment” process or the relation of “metric law” to either baseball (except maybe in Montreal or Toronto) or the legal foundation of the U.S. government.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on May 8, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
You learn about the reamendment process and metric law in the 5th year of law school
(in Bizarroworld)
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Not quite...
On Bizarro World, you “unlearn” things. Easy mistake.
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel! - Homer Simpson
by aHorseWithNoName on May 8, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Jesus guys
it was a joke about reamending, such as “everyone has a right to bear arms” which don’t apply to 2009 considering we do not have a Frontier to deal with.
If BA and RBI were so useless than they would be modified or obliterated
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
They slowly are being modified and obliterated
Hence, they are so useless per your logic
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
If those were the most important numbers in the game
I would think something of your comment. But they’re not, so I don’t.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Thurman Munson said
one time that Brett sucked cause he only got 69 RBI that one year
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
Why was there a rebellion over the Nunez/Ramirez trades if they aren’t MVP candidates
Because of the value and cost of what the Royals received in return.
Gordon to be considered a future MVP and even our best hitter at this time is a joke, and I’m t
ired of hearing it and i want to see it.
Is anyone calling Gordon a future MVP? Why do you bitch and complain about arguments people aren’t even making. It’s called a “straw man argument.” You create an argument that others aren’t making and then argue against that. Do you see how hollow that is? And with regard to you wanting to see Gordon as one of the Royals best hitters before you believe it, well he was one of the Royals very best hitters last year. Does that count?
And you continue to misrepresent royalsreview’s comments on Greinke’s long-term contract. I would suggest that you read them and attempt to comprehend them. Basically what is happening is that since he didn’t see it as the best contract ever, you are interpreting it as a major criticism of the contract. It isn’t.
Billy, you’re a Mets fan. Why don’t you just go back to the Mets.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
My name isn't Billy and I'm a Royals fan
It was the opinion of pretty much every analyst that Gordon would become a great player
(multiple All-Star appearances and maybe an MVP or two). He still may become great. He’s already good.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on May 8, 2009 12:40 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs
You just said Gordon had MVP potential….way to put your foot in your mouth buddy
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?
It was the opinion of pretty much every analyst that Gordon would become a great player
(multiple All-Star appearances and maybe an MVP or two).
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on May 8, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, "was" and "analyst" are key words in that sentence
I guess if you read every other word, you can interpret anything into whatever you want it to be.
So if I say that the experts and analysts saw Gordon as a future MVP, then I’m saying right now that he’s going to be an MVP? Have you suffered any traumatic brain injuries?
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you need your sidekick Sweep to come out and defend you
If you want to know where the start to my exaggerated rant (happy i said it) was that it was pretty much implied that Gordon should be playing everyday at 3B (in your we have 5 players for 4 position thread)
And I think we should roll with Teahen
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
TPJ is a million dollar crybaby
who can’t even play with a broken bone in his wrist
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
So if someone else points out that you either can't or don't read, then it is my "sidekick" defending me?
Kid, your immaturity is wearing thin. Grow the hell up. Act like an adult. Your childishness is growing wearisome. I really don’t want to have to put up with it for much longer.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay
You just used the “other anyalyst believed” to support your argument that Gordon is a great player and has MVP potential.
So okay Im calling out these “random” analysts now
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
The data so far shows that he likely won't become that good
But he was genuinely good last year and at his age and given his tools he should be expected to improve. So basically he’s good and should get better. Simple enough for you?
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Billy, you’re a Mets fan. Why don’t you just go back to the Mets.
me?
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
That was just odd and made me laugh
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
No, this gobble guy originally came to this site as "BillybutlerforMVP"
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course its an exaggeration
Many still think Gordon was our best hitter last year
Someone posted an ERA metric that said Ramirez was our most efficient pitcher (over Greinke & Soria) and went nuts about trading him away for Jacobs, an OBP sieve who is worse than Shealy
I doubt anyone went nuts about trading Ramirez for Jacobs.
The Royals traded Ram-Ram for Coco
oh yeah - it was about Coco and his crappy OBP
wrong reliever
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you see why people don't take you seriously?
You throw out nothing more than rash generalizations, overreactions, arguments with straw men, the amorphous “they,” you don’t attribute others’ opinions or positions accurately, and then confuse the basic facts about which you are arguing.
I would suggest that you take some time to think before you post. It will help people understand what points or positions you have (if any), and in turn result in obtaining the greater respect that you are apparently seeking.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on May 8, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Don't be so condascending Sir Sweep
And enough of the Strawmen. I was poking fun and challenging the RAMPANT NEGATIVITY I found throughout this site and frankly don’t care for your opinion. Its interesting when I read other message boards on CNNSI and ESPN that contadict the opinions presented here.
I believe your confusion lies in your bias, or its perhaps a cognitive dysfunction. Not sure which one, Your entire post was a one sweeping (like the pun) misplaced generalization. I stated my points pretty clearly. Go read them. These are impressions you discern from reading the board.
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
ESPN's content is usually off base
but the message boards are fine
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, those message boards are full of people who value RBI, and pitcher wins
It’s a regular Algonquin Roundtable over there.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
If you hate those stats so much why don't you hold Bud Selig hostage
and force him to omit them.
Yes, they are overvalued, but they still have a purpose. Well RBI’s do atleast, Wins is a tougher argument
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Lots of information is good
But one has to recognize the value of various pieces of information. Looking at a player’s HR and RBI and using them to prove that he’s good or not good is not using information wisely. For hitting, look at OBP and SLG. And, even better, look at a stat that appropriately weights all hitting events such as wOBA (which can be found at fangraphs.com among other places).
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I know what wOBA is
it weights slugging % on the same scale as OBP.
Hitting in the 5th vs the 2nd/3rd slot in the batting order matters. I’d rather have Guillen hitting 4th with his .260 average than Gordon hitting 4th. He will drive in more runs. Gordon should be a 2nd/3rd hitter to take advantage of his on base skills. I think Guillen was pitched to differently being the only major power threat in the lineup and give him credit for delivering those HR and RBI statistics
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
it weights slugging % on the same scale as OBP.
No, it doesn’t. It uses linear weights to appropriate account for and weight each event which can happen in a plate appearance, as well as stolen bases and caught stealing).
Hitting in the 5th vs the 2nd/3rd slot in the batting order matters. I’d rather have Guillen hitting 4th with his .260 average than Gordon hitting 4th. He will drive in more run
Without getting into lineup construction issues, Gordon would likely have more RBI’s in the 4 spot than Guillen because Guillen is an out machine. And the worst thing you can do when you come up to bat in any situation, but especially with runners on, is to make an out.
I think Guillen was pitched to differently being the only major power threat in the lineup and give him credit for delivering those HR and RBI statistics
PItched to perfectly? Yeah, pitchers threw the ball outside of the strike zone and Guillen swung and missed. Perfect. A raw 20 HR means nothing by itself. What matters is how often the player gets on base and the relative quality of his hits (which can be seen by OBP and SLG). And Guillen’s was not good. His RBI were the product of below average hitting in the middle of the lineup with pretty good OBP guys ahead of him. If the Royals had an average hitter at that spot last year, he would have had many more than 100 RBI.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you misunderstood what I meant
Instead of valuing Slugging % higher than OBP to get an OPS, w/OBA puts slugging % on an equal scale to OBP by using linear weights.
That is why Gordon has a better w/OBA than Guillen because their difference in OBP is more important than their difference in Slugging %
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
If you now what wOBA is, then why do you waste our time with HR and RBI as determinants of good hitters?
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
like what you just said in your last post
w/OBA with RISP might function randomly, even year to year, I do think Guillen hit alot of Sac Flys, and had several RBI double’s as well.
Maybe he was on one of those random upswings with RISP, but I don’t want to say it was completely random. I’d like to think we paid 12 million friggen dollars because he had a bit of ability to do it
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
So now you understand why RBI are not good measures of hitting performance?
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I do want to thank GobbleforCyoung for this thread though
It was fun. Although it does kind of feel like a bunch of guys picking on the slow kid.
The immoderate moderator
second that
but I’ve not felt like I’m picking on the slow kid
oops maybe I’m the slow old fart
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
no problem
Realize I’m not the slow kid but the one with the different (superior) opinion. When the “mob mentality” forms its just the perception the target is slow, but in reality it just makes him stronger
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
So when is the sabermetric geek meeting at Barnes Nobles to discuss the only stats that matter??
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Barnes Nobles is where ALL the losers hang out
God, books at fictional bookstores are so lame
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
I didn't even catch that
So where do i get that FICTIONAL book called Baseball Between the Numbers.
Barnes Nobles or Barnes & Noble…..
I’m just playing I read some of the reviews I’ll check it out
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, don't read about baseball
You’ll never learn anything that way. Just keep listening to sports radio. That way you can keep giving us this high quality analysis.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
No
read the book. I think you’ll enjoy it, or at least start to get a better understanding of the arguments some people here make.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
NY obviously I sensed the sarcasm
but if Gobble is willing to give BBTN a shot, I’d be impressed
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
He's not willing to
He thinks he actually knows about baseball already. And he doesn’t even care much about baseball. He’s not going to actually take the time to try to learn more about baseball. He’s just going to vomit out his uninformed, adolescent opinions because he’s just “messing around” here.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Well as long as he's not insulting anyone
I don’t see any problem. It’s entertaining, to an extent (echoing the statement you made to start this thread)
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
His posts insult my intelligence
And the intelligence of even moderately informed baseball fans.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I was actually going to say this
and had it typed out, but had to delete it out of politeness.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
Thank DC you are better than that
Moderately informed baseball fans. So the 8 million or so Yankee or Mets fans must be a bunch of imbeciles….
If you both truly feel advanced metrics make you smarter in general (when its really just about baseball), to prove you are better than me I don’t know what to say.
I’ve been pretty successful, graduated top 5% of my HS class graduated from a top 30 Liberal Arts College, traveled the country and been several continents and now work for a successful commercial management group.
Not sure why its makes you feel so great to belittle me…
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
So the 8 million or so Yankee or Mets fans must be a bunch of imbeciles….
First, what do you know about what 8 million Yankees or Mets fans think? You know what some of them think. You know some, you talk to some and you hear some on the radio. That’s it. There are some smart ones, some stupid ones and lot in the middle. Second, probably many of them are imbeciles. Many people are.
If you both truly feel advanced metrics make you smarter in general (when its really just about baseball), to prove you are better than me I don’t know what to say.
I’m not saying I’m a better person than you. I am saying that I know more about baseball stats than you do. And when you support an argument that a player is a good hitter by using his HR and RBI totals, it’s basically like using stuff you learned in a 3rd grade social studies class to argue a political point. Your knowledge and information is limited, which leads to weak arguments.
I have no idea how intelligent you are. But you’re not showing much baseball intelligence (while professing to really know what you’re talking about). You know, I’m a pretty intelligent person, but if I discussed lacrosse with you, I wouldn’t come off very smart because I don’t know much about lacrosse and I’m sure you do. Know what I mean?
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Same here
In no way have I come to the conclusion that you aren’t intelligent. All I know is that you, along with many casual baseball fans, do not know a lot about how to analyze baseball statistics. And as NY just said, you claim to know what you’re talking about.
Personally, I enjoy your posts because it gets a lot of people riled up and it ends up being a funny argument. I apologize if my posts come across as generally demeaning.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
True
Clearly I’m not too proficient in advance metrics or even the relationship between a players value and statistical analysis. I’m not attached to traditional statistics because I enjoyed reading them on a baseball card, but to completely denounce them as “worthless”, and anyone who uses them as “stupid” is just inaccurate. They have some value, otherwise they would be abolished. Even if their value lies in players being cognizant of them and wanted to improve their BA, HR’s, RBI, etc
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure just about any stat has value
IBB has value. But that doesn’t mean one should use it to prove that a player is good or bad. The problem isn’t that you are saying that RBI has some value. You are saying that it has great value for determining how good of a hitter Guillen is. Your problem isn’t just that you don’t know advanced stats. What’s more important is that you wildly misunderstand the value of old school stats.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Why does Hillman bat him cleanup every game?
I understand the stat, but its still somewhat important for the Royals, because they haven’t had any drive in runs. For all his flaws, his poor OBP, crappy range, the GIDP’s, awful contract I think he should get a little bit of credit for driving in a lot of runs
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he holds to the old school belief that pure power is what is most important for a cleanup hitter
Many such elements of traditional baseball orthodoxy are, to put it simply, wrong.
I understand the stat, but its still somewhat important for the Royals, because they haven’t had any drive in runs.
What they haven’t had much of for years is good hitters. They haven’t had big RBI guys because the team hasn’t had many guys on base. Guillen getting 97 RBI isn’t because he has a magical ability to will RBI’s. It’s because the Royals were actually getting guys on base in front of him.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Thought experiment
You have a baseball team. Your lineup consists of Tony Pena Jr, Mitch Maier, Brad Ausmus, Adam Kennedy, Ross Gload, Joey Gathright, Jack Hanahan, and at DH Stephen Hawking.
Your right fielder, however, is Babe Ruth.
Tell us how many runs he’ll drive in.
After you’re done thinking about that one, look at the 1985 Cardinals and discuss Tommie Herr and his 110 RBIs in the context of “players who are awesome at driving in runs.” While looking at that, note that he had 49 RBIs the season before, and 61 the season after, despite being basically the same guy all three seasons.
RBI is a stupid stat, at least in terms of deciding whether a player’s any good or not. What RBI measure is opportunities; average players with tons of opportunities to drive in runs will always have more RBI than great players who don’t get many.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on May 8, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm losing track
I thought that you view Guillen as a really good and valuable player. But, in this post, you made a pretty good list of flaws.
Royals baseball. Where .260 would be orgasmic. [I was right! We're hitting .265 and we are fairly orgasmic right now.]
The General Theory of Royaltivity
Yeah he's not great
But from all the games I watched I remember Gordon, Teahen and Butler making tons of outs when there were RISP….maybe its just what I remember, but besides Dejesus Guillen was our best run producer
by GobbleforCyoung on May 9, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Oy vey.
They have some value, otherwise they would be abolished.
My god, do you actually believe this to be true? That MLB has people sitting around trying to decide whether or not stats have value in order to determine whether or not they’re going to use them?
The only stat that has ever been abolished… was the RBI, of the game-winning sort. Even MLB realized how stupid that one was, even though it was precisely the same statistic as the individual pitcher loss (i.e., the player whose RBI was responsible for saddling the opposing pitcher with a loss earned a GWRBI).
You’d think they’d have gotten rid of the individual pitcher loss at the same time. Of course, that would lead to also getting rid of the individual pitcher win, and OMG we can’t have that.
Anyway… so, the only time they’ve abolished a stat was to say:
“We’ve decided that knocking in the winning run in a ballgame isn’t that important.”
Think about that for awhile.
This space for rent.
My comments aren't that bad, come on
If you take EVERYTHING i said, and then reflect on the original post you would atleast see where I’m coming from. I’m not sure where all your animosity towards me comes from. I’m not this complete baseball novice regardless if I am messing around on, which I do sometimes.
And if you are such a great analyst, explain what you have to say in a manner in which i cannot refute it. That would be something I appreciate because I am tired of the insults, the berating and ridicule
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
One of the big problems
is that you continue to think that the “old school” theory of baseball statistics and the “new school” theory of statistics are two competing theories.
This is false. Newer statistics are much more accurate at determining actual offensive value. To that end, if you use a statistic like wOBA or even OPS to back up a point, that will get you a lot farther here than using BA w/ RISP (for example).
If you think statistics like BA, RBIs, and HRs are important because they are still so prevalent, this is also a very weak argument. Myths and wives tales of all kinds are prevalent. This does not make them credible.
Nor is this a “fraternity of new statistics.” If you make an argument that is supported by valid evidence, people will listen to you and ultimately respect your opinion. Otherwise, expect to be either ignored or easily refuted.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
In short,
the evidence you’re using to try to make points is always either nonexistent, extremely weak, or completely irrelevant. With a better understanding of how the game works, you would make your arguments stronger, and could keep stirring the pot here with more informed analysis.
"You know what, I mean I cried in bed for a while, moaning 'Why!? Why did this have to happen?'"
Zack Greinke on the Brad Pitt - Jennifer Aniston split
So what you want me to say is Gordon is a good player
because he has a good OBP and is able to draw walks??? And also that his RBI’s is irrelevant because he had players with terrible OBP such as Guillen/Teahen batting in front of him last year?
Should I suggest that Gordon was drafted as a 2nd overall pick to be more than a player who can get on base but one who can drive in runs as well????
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
No Gordon is a good player because of...
1) the value of all of the things he does offensively (walks, singles, extra base hits, SB’s, etc.)
and
2) HIs talent/skills/tools
And also that his RBI’s is irrelevant because he had players with terrible OBP such as Guillen/Teahen batting in front of him last year?
Yes.
Should I suggest that Gordon was drafted as a 2nd overall pick to be more than a player who can get on base but one who can drive in runs as well????
When a player was drafted has no bearing on how good of a player he is. Now if you want to argue that the Royals didn’t choose wisely with their first round pick in that draft, that is fine.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
He's clearly not saying that.
DCRoyals made no reference to Gordon at all (in his 2 posts directly above).
I wouldn’t say that RBIs are “irrelevant”. They’re just very weak evidence on how good or bad a player is performing (or has performed) and sometimes that “evidence” is misleading. There are better ways of valuing players out there (ones that attempt measure nearly everything a player can do on the field).
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel! - Homer Simpson
by aHorseWithNoName on May 8, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Fine if RBI is a bad statistic and I understand why
Can you really say there is no “skill” involved when one player has a better w/OBA with RISP than another?
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, there is essentially no skill involved.
One can quibble about a player’s ability to hit sac flies but this is a minor variable, particularly when comparing such an ability among players.
First, on average, players hit better with runners on (for a variety of fairly obvious reasons). But the degree to which this is true varies widely from year to year for just about every player. The variable acts, statistically, like it is random, rather than behaving the way that statistics which players genuinely have control over acts.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on May 8, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah be careful about this elite fraternity of baseball intelligence that has formed.
whether you are right or if you just think you are, even if you have statistics to prove it, the baseball world is not ready for your attack.
Inevitably there is a balance/compromise between the new school metrics and old school statistics, leaning heavily on the new school side. It’s dangerous to denounce Wins, RBI, BA, etc in totality. MLB is saturated with these statistics; its embedded in the history and will forever be there.
That matters….
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
this might be my most informed post
So I’ll leave on that note
peace
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey Gobble post something like this again and see if you get a record number of comments
You’ll have projection stats that make you a hot prospect for MVP and All Star for RR postings.
Just don’t tear a labrum in your hip and go for surgery next year or you’ll get ripped to shreds.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
Yeah remind the Maniacal Moderator who wants to destroy me popular my useless threads are
There will be more….
Billy, my boy
peace out!
by GobbleforCyoung on May 8, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
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