My Thread Hijack of GobbleforCyYoung's "Coco to the DL" fanshot
I got excited and was typing what I was thinking, let's trade Mike Jacobs and Coco Crisp now before the break and see what we can do to improve the team; I wound up writing a reply that could generate enough to be a post on its own so here ya'all go. Food for arguments? Take it for what it's worth. Run with it.
Frenchy?
Now see I don’t know a damn thing about Francoeur (spelling?) other than what I’ve read on here and I’ve seen on a Braves blog that someone has made a “Failcouer” jersey. I gather that they like him in Atlanta like we love our TPJ. They think he’s a bust and they want to get rid of him.
My whole idea of CoCo or Jake to the Braves for him could be taken as a joke, but from what I’ve read it could be taken seriously. Now if Coco went to the Braves for Frenchy, we’d still have the possibility of Jake to the Giants. What could we get from them for him?
Big point of question, to get equal value is a waste of time; but that’s an apples-to-apples thing. We obviously don’t just want to deal our apple that can’t hit lefties or field anything for the same apple. We do need to get the same line offensively though (what is Jake’s AVG/OBP/SLG? … too lazy to look it up) No so I lied. Right now overall for the year it’s .229/.312/.432 and granted we’ve still got 100 games to play in which he may bring those numbers up. Yeah well he’s leading the team with 10 dingers but that has slowed his pace down to a sub-Balbonian 26 HR’s for the year. It’s not just imaginary that it’s hard to hit 30 HR’s in a season when you play half your games at the K.
It seems to me that we could get someone who could actually play defense and put up those offensive numbers at the same time, and have it be a win-win situation for each club. Obviously we expected more out of Jake than this. But damn, didn’t we know going in that he couldn’t field or hit LHP? Is there “Seitzer” experimentation going on that we’re noobishly unaware of? Someone posted a long dealio regarding Jake’s approach the other day, noting his uncharacteristic “patience”.
Either way, who is the “orange” out there that would fit in a good trade for our “apple” Mike the Jake-o-nator. I would love to see him be the guy I want him to be but dreams are not reality. I like the good ol’ boy driving monster truck just crushing the urine out of the ball. I like his attitude. He’s my kind of player. Basically he doesn’t do anything half-assed. He either crushes the crap out of it or powerfully swings and misses. No half-assed strikeouts, but whole-hearted “aren’t you nancy-boys glad I didn’t hit that pitch” strikeouts. But enough of that; I love the Jake but the reality is he’s a negative to the team right now. (Am I wrong?) We can’t put him in a COF position where he’d be sub-JoGui could we. That’s just totally out of the question. If we could put CoCo’s legs on JoGui we’d have something, but that kind of Frankenstein dreaming is a waste of time. I’m talking reality, and to repeat the reality is that Jake don’t fit this team. (dammit)
I was excited in the off-season that we got him and Coco. Now, as reality has set in, “what she said”… not so much.
So now, go back and re-read al lthe above and substitute Covelli Crisp for Jacobs. Except for the “Plain ol Country Boy attitude” stuff and colorful vernacular. Pure numbers, make Coco the apple, and find the orange out there in the 29 other clubs who would be a win-win trade. Is there one? Are there any? Is our best strategy to just keep them both and let them ‘develop’ under our current ‘coaching’ approach? There are still 100 games to play and after a dismal what 7 wins out of the last like 30 games we are still only in the middle of June and only 5.5 games out.
Keep in mind that I still think taking second in the division this season would be a vast improvement over the last several years. I’m not disillusioned. But there’s one thing that we could do to make it all better.

“win the whole fuckin’ thing”
So seriously you guys, who cold we get in trade for Coco and Jake?
0 recs |
71 comments
Comments
probably not a lot
although there have been worse trades…
I hereby resign from this post.
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Jun 15, 2009 11:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the francouer (sp?) thing will never die
I’m starting to feel like we’d have seen it by now if it was going to happen, but I guess there’s no way of knowing
as for jacobs, what is there to say? he is what we thought he’d be
i dont think he has much trade value, and if you consider the low price moore paid for him, and the fact that the marlins’ primary concern was dumping salary and that Moore probably liked him better than anyone else, what does that equal on the market now? i’m struggling for a way to say negative value…
i can’t understand why anyone would be happy that coco’s on the DL however
by royalsreview on Jun 16, 2009 12:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he was killing this team don't you see that?
His OBP for May and June combined (27 games) was barely .300, worse than Jacobs….His slugging percentage was under .300, worse than Maier’s who has never hit a HR in his career. Say what you want about Guillen, but his OBP is a respectable .345. Yeah, Guillen has no range in RF and gets vilified for it. Coco sucks as a CF too. He has range but NO ARM. Yeah, he can run fast and catch up to some balls, but EVERYONE IN MLB can advance on him. Jason Giambi even tagged from 2nd to 3rd on a short fly ball!
He’s horrible…he’s not the same player he was in Cleveland when he was younger and even when he was on fire last year and two years ago for Boston (his overall numbers were still poor), he was nothing more than a 4th outfielder…
Also, a bird didn’t cause him to fuck up in Cleveland. It’s a lame excuse. He rushed to make a throw because his arm sucks, that’s what cost us the game. Not some dumb bird looking for nachos in the wrong place.
It was long overdue to have Dejesus leading off and he has been struggling this year too! I’’m hoping one of these two (Jacobs) can break out of this “slump” and it’s not just their games regressing.
Maybe Coco is hurt and maybe he does really suck leading off and should be batting 2nd (most likely 9th though) Who knows.
that is why I’m happy he is on the DL
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 16, 2009 7:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the interesting question is what happens to jacobs next year
by royalsreview on Jun 16, 2009 12:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
or Kila
At this point, I’d be surprised if Kila ever gets 150 PAs in a season for the Royals
It would have been nice for Moore to be right about this one
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too much money
I’d be surprised if we picked up Coco’s option, and really surprised if we don’t cut Jacobs free before arbitration. Maybe we can flip him for a young relief pitcher? HA!
by AxDxMx on Jun 16, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He'd make a fine pinch runner
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Jun 16, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not As Good
As Huber.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Jun 16, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if jacobs is who we thought he is
did we let him off the hook?
(famous coaches rant)
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jun 16, 2009 12:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone who is happy that Crisp is on the DL just isn't paying attention
Coco Crisp has the highest Wins Above Replacement (WAR) of any position player on the team. That means of all Royals position players, he’s provided the most benefit (for his position) to the team. HIs hitting has cooled off, but his defense has been spectacular. And a run saved is just as valuable as a run created. Here are the top five Royals position player WAR:
1. Crisp 1.0
2. Callaspo 0.9
3. Olivo 0.9
4. Teahen 0.7
5t. Bloomy 0.5
5t. Buck 0.5
So are the criticisms of Crisp and Olivo wildly overblown? Of course. Taking defense and position into account is important. Overreacting to how a player has performed in June (that means half a month) is simply moronic.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jun 16, 2009 11:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed and thank you for putting into
a good argument.
What has been played, 1/3 of a season about? Crisp has been struggling for a month or so, much of which he was fighting an injury. While his arm is not good, his range has been.
It also does not make sense to me that someone would want a guy like Crisp to be hurt. Losing depth on your team is not a good thing, ever. (Unless it’s Ross Gload) Now if people are glad he’s going to the DL so he can get better, well that is a different story then and truly hope that is what it is or you aren’t a very good fan.
by I need more Esteban on Jun 16, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's where it was coming from
Glad that he’s on the DL where he needs to be to get fixed instead of playing on the field while hurt and obviously struggling.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
by BillyMojo on Jun 16, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for helping me get my grip back on reality.
Is WAR something I can just go to FanGraphs and look up? (interested in Jacobs’s WAR)
Okay so I answered my own question and looked for myself. The most current they have for Jake’s 2009 WAR is 0.0 so if I understand that correctly he is performing exactly at replacement level.
Is that below expectations, and do I now have to compare that to his projections to really make an educated call on whether or not he’s hurting or helping? Or can I just say that he’s doing neither because simply stated his WAR is 0.0? (my call off the top of my head is to say that 0.0 is hurting. No it’s not negative but I can’t have 0.0. By my law if you’re not helping you’re hurting. Nothing but dead weight drawing a paycheck.)
naturally I’m aware that things could come around and those numbers could improve, and I’m also aware that the numbers aren’t all the man brings. But the numbers also don’t lie.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
by BillyMojo on Jun 16, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
just go to the fangraphs player search thing. On each player page, the “value” section is at the bottom
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
although the criticisms of Olivo aren’t that overblown — he’s been on fire the last week. His defense has also come around a bit — but last I checked, he was about -5. If he’s over 1.5 WAR at the end of the season, I’ll be shocked.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So WAR is a perfected stat? Is it gospel?
last time I checked it doesn’t calculate arm strength. is there a statistic for how many base-runners tag on a fly ball out by a specific player??? Or how about ANY time Coco fields a ball (hit or out) how many of those runners tagging from 3rd, 2nd or rounding 2nd, 3rd would have been prevented if a competent thrower was in CF.
And I started the post so I will answer the question. Yes, I’m thankful he is on the DL because he hasn’t been a “1.0 WAR” player the past 6 weeks. He has been really hurting this team.
I do hope he returns to being the walk machine he was early in the season. I liked that, as well as the doubles/triples he was hitting and if his injury was really affecting his play then there is cause to be optimistic.
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 16, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
um, no it doesn't calculate arm strength
it does include baserunners advancing, etc. It’s part of the UZR portion, called “arm,” I believe, although that’s not a physical measurement, any more th an batting average is a measure of bat speed. The both measure performance.
Yes, CoCo is bad at holding runners. But despite that, he’s still been a decent player.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2.2??? Should be negative
How does his range value go from 25, -5 to 7? His defensive range changes that much from 07-09
I don’t buy it. His bat is -7.7 in 2007 when his stats all around are better than in 2009 but he’s 0.0 in 2009?
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 16, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
all those numbers are above and below the current season's average
which changes from year to year. I explain the general concepts in my introductory article on WAR, which might be worth looking at.
His range values vary in a similar way to any other stat — a player’s peformance relative to league average in any category will vary in different amounts fro season-to-season. Range is particularly difficult to measure, and that’s the main issue with defensive stats that goes beyond this discussion… In short, it has pretty large error bars.
Despite what some think, the basic “arm” (baserunner kills + “holds”) and baserunning are much easier to measure than range — you simply take the average kills/advances on a fielded ball for each position, and see if the player is above or below that average over his opportunities.
In short, despite being -0.9 runs for Errors (don’t know if UZR calcs errors on its own or uses the scorekeeper’s errors) and a dreadful arm so far this season (-4.3 runs), his excellent range (7.4) makes him an overall above average defensive CF.
Despite his recent terrible slump, he’s still be exactly average so far this season (hence the 0.0 “batting” line), and he’s a CF, which means he gets a small bump overall for that. So yeah, he’s been slightly above average when he has played this season, including both his bad arm and his recent offensive slump.
It’s also worth noting that while the offensive linear weights FanGraphs uses includse SB/CS, they don’t have a baserunning stat at this point. BP does. Including SB/CSes, they have Crisp at about 3 runs above average as a baserunner, for 6th best in the majors. Taking out his ~1.25 SBrns, that comes out to about 1.75.
So overall, he’s been about 12 runs/1.2 wins above replacement. In his playing time, that’s above 5 runs above average.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So all that really matters is how he's performed for the last six weeks?
Do you see how that doesn’t make any sense at all? Would you like for every good player who is experiencing a bad stretch to go on the DL? I hope this shows the fallacy in your happiness over Crisp’s DL stint. It is short-sighted and completely wrong headed.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jun 16, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you want two players that pretty much suck to continue to play and hurt the team?
wrong-headed? You are being pretty simple-minded about this. Crisp has had an OBP of .300 and an OPS of .600 FOR MORE THAN HALF THE SEASON (since May 1st)….maybe i’m just an idiot and Cleveland/Boston didn’t just get rid of him because he sucked and couldn’t be an everyday player (and a leadoff batter at that)
or maybe he’s hurt….it’s probably a bit of both
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 16, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, Coco Crisp doesn't pretty much suck and he hasn't this season
So far this season, his combination of offense and defense have made him an above average player for his position. Before this season, he was projected to be an average-to-slightly above average player for his position. So yes, not wanting him to play is illogical, wrong-headed, silly and baseless.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jun 16, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i am glad he is on the DL now....
b/c he WAS absolutely killing the team the past few weeks and by all accounts, his shoulder was a large reason for that. So there was no reason to believe he was going to be any better than the last few weeks without an extended amount of time on the shelf.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jun 17, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think GforCyY's argument is just that
Coco had a good spell, and then a bad spell.
Suppose the bad spell is due to an injury. If he doesn’t go on the DL, and keeps up the bad spell, then he’ll continue to play at the 0.0 WAR he’s been mugging along at for the last half-of-the-season-played, which does no one any good. He may have a good range, but I doubt that’s enough to make up for an extended spell of 600 OPS—which can’t be close to league average, even for a defensive center-fielder.
If he gets onto the DL and gets better, and goes back to 1+ WAR, then, well, we’d all be happy.
And the fairly clean break (someone check my facts!) between the five+ weeks of good-Coco and the five+ weeks of bad-Coco does seem to indicate that he’s hurt.
It’s also possible to argue for Coco to go on the DL for 15 days, even if he’s not hurt (the purported Waechter/Bale/etc solution). If that gets him a chance to chill out and get his head on straight, then, well, like I said, we’d all be happy.
The main way the DL wouldn’t help is if it’s just truly a random slump. I tend to suspect that’s the case (although 5+ weeks good & 5+ weeks bad is a little odd). So sending him to the DL is just like sitting out during a cool craps table.
But GforCyY’s argument has some merit, and it’s not *im*plausible that this is not a random slump.
by Sean O Se on Jun 17, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
with the implication that sitting out a cool craps table
is nonsense.
even though i do it.
by Sean O Se on Jun 17, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are indeed special caveats about defensive metrics for catchers. So WAR for catchers is fuzzier than for other position players. But given that Olivo is, I believe, usually treated as a horrendous player, I do think the criticisms of him are overblown. That is not the WAR of a horrendous player. So, at least his play so far this season hasn’t been horrendous. We’ll see how he does for the remainder of the season.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jun 16, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, Willie Bloomquist hasn't been horrendous so far this season, either
My crude defensive metric (borrowed from what Justin and CHONE do) coincided what Brian Carthwright’s more sophisticated WOWY account revealed — despite an decent way with baserunners (although he’s not been great so far this season), Olivo is one of the worst pitch blockers in the last 50 or so years. I mean, he’d be the worst, except for Bob Brenly being slightly worse, and Earl Battey being just as bad.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair to Olivo..
Our pitchers do have some nasty stuff.
But yes, he needs to do a better job blocking wild pitches.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Jun 16, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's the thing about WOWY
as opposed to the crude system I use, it (WOWY was originally conceived for catchers) looks at the WP/PB performance of catchers and pitcher both with and without each other, so it contains normalization for the various pitchers, etc.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
also
the historical figures include Olivo’s pre-Royals career —he’s always had a problem with it, whomever the pitchers are
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoever
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has a nice game calling plan though.
That doesn’t get entered into the mix, which most likely makes his WAR pretty much where it should be.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Jun 16, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, his game calling
it’s too bad only Greinke seems to be able to catch on
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you read what I wrote I'm looking at how Crisp has played for MORE THAN HALF a season
MAY AND JUNE – that’s 97 AB’s vs 81 for April
so is it still moronic to look at Crisp’s OPS for more than half this season???
didn’t think so
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 16, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
read below
His OBP for May and June combined (27 games) was barely .300, worse than Jacobs….His slugging percentage was under .300, worse than Maier’s who has never hit a HR in his career. Say what you want about Guillen, but his OBP is a respectable .345.
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 16, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I'm looking at how Crisp has done overall
I’m looking at how he’s done this season, in recent seasons and in his career. I’m also looking at his projections. He was projected to be an average or slightly above average player for his position. And that’s what he’s doing.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jun 16, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about a total do over?
We get Nunez and RamRam back and get a free pass on the ridiculous contract to Farnsworth. Anyone else think we’d probably be 500 right now if Moore had passed on making these moves? Soria, RamRam, Nunez, Cruz, Mahay, Bale, Wright is a pretty good bullpen. Even without Jacobs 10 HRs (and ludicrous number of PAs against lefties) the stronger bullpen would have saved us at least 3 games. Just a disastrous off-season for Moore.
by Big Guy on Jun 16, 2009 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jacobs hits Jacks!
Not very many, for a “power bat”, but still, that’s awesome right?!
by kcbottom9th on Jun 16, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's pretty ironic
I was one of the few that was defending the Crisp/Jacobs acquisitions in the midst of waves of criticism from many on this board (including Devil/NYRoyal)
Now when I’m flipping out about how much they suck I’m getting bashed for not seeing how valuable they are? Does this make sense
WTF?
And if you haven’t seen Gload’s 318/390/477 line recently could you imagine what bloomquist at SS with Gload at first would have done for Trey?? HE would be gizzing all over the clubhouse after seeing all the grit on the field
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 16, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can explain the "WTF?": When you post things that dont' make sense, someone is going to point it out to you
I didn’t like the Jacobs trade. I still don’t. I kind of liked the Crisp trade, although the Royals didn’t need to trade for a CFer at all. But Crisp is what he is. He’s a slightly below average hitter for his position. And he’s an above average fielder for his position. That means he’s an average or slightly above average MLB CFer. He’s certainly been above average this year when you take into account both the runs he’s created on offense and the runs he’s prevented on defense. A run prevented is as valuable as a run created.
You keep talking about Crisp’s hitting in May and June. There are a couple of problems with that:
1. That ignores his hitting in April.
2. That ignores his defense.
So, instead of just looking at a month and a half of hitting, why don’t we look at his total value for this season (hitting + defense). That shows him to have performed above average for his position this year. And, as I said, he was projected to be average or slightly above average in 2009 before the season started. Get it now?
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jun 16, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i understand what you are saying I just don't agree with you
my whole point is I don’t think he’s good and this is the best way to explain it. Devils already pointed how the value “range factor” is flawed:
His range values vary in a similar way to any other stat — a player’s performance relative to league average in any category will vary in different amounts fro season-to-season. Range is particularly difficult to measure, and that’s the main issue with defensive stats that goes beyond this discussion… In short, it has pretty large error bars.
I obviously recognize his hot April (but see it as a fluke more so than the last 6 weeks). But if his arm sucks and his batting is below par (his .714 OPS which ranks him 18th out of the 25 qualified CF’s in MLB) I do not agree that his + “range factor” translates into an above average player overall. EVERY SINGLE TIME he touches the ball from a base-hit a runner will advance if he is on 2nd or 3rd. Ellsbury is 2nd worst with a – 2.2 “arm” but the difference between Coco and every single CF in Baseball is a more significant gap. You only have to watch the games. For example, the Cleveland game…a bird didn’t lose that game, Coco rushing because he knows his arm is awful lost it…i believe any other CF wouldn’t have to rush to field a ball before a runner even touches 3rd.
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 16, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
short answer -
if you throw in base-running as a component it might be a little closer to par…
however,a + range factor isn’t as significant enough of a variable to cause his positive defense to outweigh negative batting.
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 16, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He charged that ball because the winning fucking run was on 2nd.
That’s a perfect example of a “do or die” play for a centerfielder.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
by Warden11 on Jun 16, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not only did he make the right play by charging...
but even if by your accounts, he stays back and by some miracle the guy doesnt score on his noodle arm….we’re still losing that game
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jun 17, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course
but how many CF’s would have made that play??? I believe most have a strong enough arm to field a hard hit ball right up the middle. Yes, the birds make the play interesting, doubt they are the a bigger reason than Coco rushing to make a play with his weak arm.
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 17, 2009 7:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again,
he was charging the ball because it was a do or die. That ball hitting the bird would have screwed every cf’er in the league.
If you don’t like Crisp, that’s fine. But don’t use a stupid excuse like “the ball hitting the bird didn’t cause a problem”, most of the guys here readily admit that Crisp wouldn’t have thrown him out either way. Just use that argument.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
by Warden11 on Jun 17, 2009 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why are you defending him?
Almost every CF could have just standed there and fielded the ball, not fly in like a madman in an attempt to field it! What don’t you understand about Coco running as fast as he can to field it as fast as he can because even a runner 10 steps in front of 3rd will still score on a line drive to Coco BUT NOT EVERY OTHER CF IN BASEBALL!
So you understand:
“Crazy things happen in this game,” Crisp said after Shin-Soo Choo’s liner over the second-base bag clipped the wing of one of hundreds of birds that buzz the ballpark. “It was hit so sharply, I felt like I had a chance,” Crisp said. “You never know what the heck is going to happen.”
It was a liner and hit sharply..it didn’t change direction or anything. And below it states the birds were just in the way and IT DIDN"T HIT A BIRD. I watched the replay like 20 times. Crisp just missed it:
Remember last week when the Cleveland Indians beat the Kansas City Royals on a walk-off single by Shin-Soo Choo when Royals centerfielder Coco Crisp lost the ball amidst a flock of seagulls
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 18, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, make a point and make one you can support.
No problem with that.
But this:
And below it states the birds were just in the way and IT DIDN"T HIT A BIRD.
It isn’t true just because you want it to be. After that comment, I’m done.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
by Warden11 on Jun 18, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you talking about?
Some articles say the ball hit the bird, some don’t and others say it just clipped the wing . I have no idea what it did. Hell Coco doesn’t even know. The commotion certainly threw Crisp’s timing off. I will buy that distraction notion more than it hit a bird.
Yeah, i still believe he missed it because he charged the ball and the seagulls. Most CF"s would have made that play. They could have just standed there and let the ball go through the birds (you do see that the ball missed Coco’s glove by about a foot)
Birds were a convenient excuse IMO
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 18, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHY ISN'T ANYONE TALKING ABOU TTHE BIRDS BEHIND THE GRASSY KNOLL
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 18, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody is talking about "range factor"
The defensive element of WAR comes from UZR, which is a much, much better defensive metric than Range Factor. Crisp is doing a great job defensively and one can see that in the advanced fielding metrics and with the naked eye. You keep talking about his arm without any recognition of how little importance arm is in an OFer’s defense. Range is much, much more important. And his SB’s are included in his wOBA, and thus it is part of his WAR. Overall, he’s been an above average MLB CFer this year. That is essentially indisputable unless you want to ignore stats or pretend that batting average and a CFer’s arm are more important than wOBA, WAR and UZR.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jun 17, 2009 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 Yes.
Getting to balls and keeping them in front does a better job of stopping runners. A great arm doesn’t hurt, but I’d rather a guy that gets to the ball before it gets to the wall.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
by Warden11 on Jun 17, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when did I bring up his batting average?? I've been talking about his OPS
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 18, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 18, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jacobs IS a lefty specialist
No, Trey, your other left.
by AxDxMx on Jun 16, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Stop forcing the envelope!!!
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jun 16, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or at least try massaging it first
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All the debate about Coco is great. I love it.
The lack of debate about Jacobs almost rests the main point of my case though. What I see is that there’s little to debate in his case. We all seem to be pretty much in agreement regarding Mike Jacobs, and he was the main point of my post.
Now with that said, in closing I queried all to substitute Coco for Jake in my rantings.
Wow what a response! Never expected.
But now, I pose this. Substitute Miggy in there. Or anyone else we’ve been musing about trading.
NYR has pointed out in another post that Miggy’s WAR is good. (what there are like five guys with good WAR’s?)
I don’t really think anyone is getting traded. So c’mon Dayton, shock me.
Yeah? From what I hear, you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a f@#%ing boat.
by BillyMojo on Jun 16, 2009 6:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah maybe i just want Coco to be good
I see Curtis Granderson and Grady Sizermore do everything Coco can in the field and on the basepaths and then I see them throw runners out (or alteast get enough respect from Giambi so they don’t tag) and then they get to the plate and hit homeruns
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 16, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, if that's your standard
Granderson and Sizemore have been two of the best CFs in baseballover the last few years
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 16, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and thats what Gobble (and everyone else) want
nothing wrong with that
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jun 17, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what's the point of trading young promising relievers?
who cost 1/12 of veterans with serious issues in their game?
Dejesus should shift back over so we have an everyday spot for Teahen, our best hitter this year (well him and Callaspo)
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 17, 2009 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since you asked
While the Royals didn’t need a new CFer, Crisp has improved the OF. And Crisp has been much more valuable than that “young promising reliever” this year, which is to be expected when you’re comparing a starting position player to a middle reliever.
2009 WAR
Crisp 1.0
Ramirez 0.1
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jun 17, 2009 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He would have meant more for us
I doubt a setup guy could get to a WAR the same as a starting CF, but it might have been close. Looking at the last month and a half, the most consistent problem of this team has been in holding leads in the 7th and 8th. We’re now 2.5 game outcomes difference from being .500 and I can’t imagine anyone on this board can’t name twice that many instances where a better bullpen performance would get those games back for us.
We paid a lot of money to get worse in the bullpen. I believe you yourself posited on several occassions last year that Ramirez was actually performing better than Soria. It’s doubtful that has been made up by the difference between a Crisp/DeJesus CF/LF and a DeJesus/Teahen.
by Big Guy on Jun 17, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt a setup guy could get to a WAR the same as a starting CF, but it might have been close.
Frankly, I doubt it. For a whole season, a great setup man might put up 1.5 WAR. Compare that to an average starting position player, who would have a WAR of approximately 2.0. Crisp was projected to do that or a little better. He is on pace to do more than a little better than that. Ramirez is on pace for a WAR of less than 0.5.
Looking at the last month and a half, the most consistent problem of this team has been in holding leads in the 7th and 8th. We’re now 2.5 game outcomes difference from being .500 and I can’t imagine anyone on this board can’t name twice that many instances where a better bullpen performance would get those games back for us.
I realize there are bullpen problems, but it’s like Ramirez would have saved all of those lost games for us (saved us in the general sense, not the statistical sense). And while Ramirez’s loss has hurt us, the addition of Crisp has helped us. It’s easy to see how having Ramirez might have helped us in some games, but you have to consider what the loss of Crisp would have done to this team so far as well.
I believe you yourself posited on several occassions last year that Ramirez was actually performing better than Soria. It’s doubtful that has been made up by the difference between a Crisp/DeJesus CF/LF and a DeJesus/Teahen.
What “difference” are you talking about? The difference between Ramirez last year and some pitcher in the bullpen this year? First, should we be comparing Ramirez’s performance last year to this year’s Royals bullpen? He wasn’t projected to pitch quite that well this year. And his actual performance this year has been much worse. Plug R. Ramirez’s 4.67 FIP and 103 tRA+ into the Royals bullpen and it wouldn’t be much improved. Even Horacio Ramirez put up a tRA+ of 100 this season as a reliever for the Royals.
So has the OF improvement been bigger than the impact of the loss of an underperforming R. Ramirez? Yes, by a lot.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jun 17, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So this is all because Crisp isn't one of the greatest CFer's in the game?
Granderson and Sizemore are stars. Arguably, by talent and performance, they are superstars. So because Crisp isn’t a superstar it makes you cranky and so you feel like he’s worse than he actually is? I’ve got a news flash for you: most players aren’t great. And being above average for your position is actually a good thing. Recognize him for what he is and whine about players who are actually bad.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Jun 17, 2009 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look I had no problem with Crisp the first month of the season - but he's really hurt us the last month and a half
And even Hillman, a man who takes ages to finally catch on to needed changes, has had enough and put him on the DL
But your defensive stats are not empirical evidence. They are estimated measurements. You talk about how he is an above average CF like it’s an absolute fact. Crisp was ranked 18th out of 25 CF’s in OPS. His range and base-running do not put him in the top 10. For one, every CF has speed. Likewise, his range is not enough to compensate for the worst arm in MLB.
We are not going to agree and lets just see if Crisp can come back and be the player he was in April…if he can I’ll be the first to admit that I was exaggerating and he really is an above average CF
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 18, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Olivo is busy showcasing his talent for a trade
Just in time for Buck to come back and back up Barayanana Pena. Wonder what we could get for him?
by AxDxMx on Jun 17, 2009 2:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Dayton had been promoted to Braves GM
Jason Heyward and Tommy Hanson
Hillman's facial hair is inconsistent. I am anything but
by McClure 'stache on Jun 17, 2009 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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