Hillman Pushes the "Getting Him Work" Approach to a New, Even Stupider, Extreme
by royalsreview on Jun 18, 2009 11:32 PM EDT
in News
108 comments
You know what? We all deserved that. After everyone even vaguely interested in the Royals made their six millionth joke, comment, or blog post about how terrible the National League was, the Royals went out and played awful for 18 straight innings, losing back to back games to the woebegone Diamondbacks 12-5. Both games were not that close either.
This is what happens when we get cocky.
I don't really want to write too much more about the game, which was essentially just another unremarkable Royals loss. Instead, I think it's time that we have a full post on the strange season of Joakim Soria. Yet again, tonight Soria appeared in an absurdly low-leverage situation, pitching the top of the 9th in a 12-2 game. Of course, I'm certain we'll hear about how he needed work, a desire which I've never quite understood the urgency of, considering it is baseball and there's still over 100 games left, with about six off-days mixed in.
By the way things are going, I'd say that in a month we'll have gone all the way: with Soria just pitching every third day in Omaha.
It's particularly interesting that all this bizarre bullpen management -- and Hillman is not necessarily the worst guy out there or even atypical -- alongside a somewhat humbugish counter-revolution regarding pitch counts.
Here's a quick summary of Soria's appearances this season:
| Game # | Situation |
| 2 | 2-run lead |
| 3 | 2-run lead |
| 6 | 2-run lead |
| 7 | 2-run lead |
| 14 | 2-run lead |
| 24 | tie game (extra innings) |
| 25 | 3-run lead |
| 29 | 3-run lead |
| 52 | 9-run deficit |
| 55 | 4-run lead |
| 59 | 1-run lead |
| 61 | 4-run lead |
| 64 | 10-run deficit |
The team's best reliever, by a mile, has been nearly irrelevant this season. Soria has appeared in one tie game, which was in extra innings, on the road, and is thus an "approved situation" and one one-run game this season.
Here's another chart:
| Relief Appearances in 1-run & Tie Games | |
| Cruz | 12 |
| Wright | 8 |
| Ho-Ram | 7 |
| Mahay | 6 |
| Farnsworth | 4 |
| Bale | 4 |
| Tejeda | 4 |
| Soria | 2 |
| Ponson | 1 |
Now, surely, part of this has been a bit of a fluke. The Royals were funnelling save situations to Soria during the first 10 days of the season that evoked warm roto-memories of K-Rod last season. Surely, had some of those two-run games, of which there were legion, been one-run affairs, Soria would have pitched as well. Point conceded.
Still, I think the chart above speaks volumes about just how broken bullpen management is these days. John Bale has barely even been on the team, and he's appeared in more legitimately close games than Soria has. Kyle Farnsworth spent over a month in garbage time only roles, and he's still doubled Soria's total. To say nothing of the fact that guys like Jamey Wright and Ho-Ram have left Soria in the dust.
Then there's Cruz's total. Fast forward to next season. Imagine a storyline developing that Soria works better as the setup man (which would never happen because he's already earned his mythical closer label, but just go with it). Now, if Soria was named the setup man, and Cruz slid into the closer role, despite going against baseball logic, I think it's immistakable that the Royal bullpen would suddenly get much better, which proves how wrong the current orthodoxy is.
Imagine another scenario: there was no such thing as a "save" or, if you prefer, the save statistic only included 1-2 run games. In both scenarios, bullpen management would improve.
Yes, the Royals/Soria/Hillman have had some bad luck in the timing of "closer approved" games. They've also seen multiple games flitter away, before Soria had a chance to impact them. Without looking at the numbers, I'd say that Soria has only been the fourth or fifth most impactful reliever on the staff this season. If you take away that week of glory in April, he's been John Bale with intro music.
But at least he's gotten work.
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we're carrying too many utility infielders to have an extra reliever
I love the random pulling of Callaspo (what? did Bert the Boulder finally commit too many errors for Trey?)
the STL series will SUCK.. why we make it so easy for those Redbird bastards to take over our stadium is beyond me.
I’m betting there’ll be more hits in crowd brawls than from the Royals this weekend.
by BHWick on Jun 18, 2009 11:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm a Cards fan (so I like this) but...
The Cards have been sucking nearly as mightily as the Royals for over a month now.
by stlfan on Jun 19, 2009 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea
but were still in contention…the cardinals have just managed to pitch pretty well in certain games where they squeak out enough runs to win. im excited about this series as much as royals fans hate it turn st lou blue aint going to happen, but the blue seats at the K will turn red this weekend
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
put your violin away
you’ve been .500 over the last month.. i’m surprised you didn’t throw in a call to fire LaRussa since you’re only 1 1/2 out and 36-31.
by BHWick on Jun 19, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHY
would i want to have LaRussa fired? one of the greatest coaches of all time pfft, if anything id be after Mozeliaks ass, he def needs to make a move, and there is no violin buddy, i just believe in my team.
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention
we are a 1 1/2 out where are the royals at? and were still over that .500 mark there to, this is why i find it hard to root for the royals. most of the fans are pessimistic bandwagoners
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe that might be a bit off
by definition (loosely perhaps) a bandwagoner would never be pessimistic, nor for that matter cheer for a losing team. A bandwagoner starts to cheer for a team when it actually leaves them optimistic about life, puts a smile on their face if you will. (And I will) Losing does not have this reaction to people, there fore a Royals fan (in general, and espically people on this blog) or the epitome of the exact opposite of a bandwagoner. Pessimistic? Hell yeah, did you see the last 15 years? Bandwagoner no.
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jun 19, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah. I actually am one that likes Tony.
We’re lucky to still be in the race. Our bad play doesn’t keep Milwaukee, Chicago, and Cinci from playing just as bad ball.
Glad we looked good last night. Lookin’ forward to two good games the next two days.
by stlfan on Jun 20, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and
as far as a brawl in the stands anyone that gets in a fight at a ball game is worthless and shouldnt be allowed at games. even if they are rivals by geographic location, it shouldnt happen. hate to say it but Cardinals fans have a bit more class when it comes to watching games
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so much class....
that post is a good example of why i hate cardinals fans and the entire city of st louis
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jun 19, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm glad you let
one idiot’s opinion shape your entire opinion of a people and/or geographic region.
by stlhulsey on Jun 19, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get a brain moran!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Jun 19, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
little known fact
That actually is DESTROYER.
by stlhulsey on Jun 19, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
lived there for two years....
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jun 19, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you guys bring monacles and red wine to the games too?
At least your team has a real stadium now. Even if it’s still too easy to hit groundrule doubles there, like in Busch II.
by BHWick on Jun 19, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer a good top hat
when at Busch. However whenever I head to KC for a game, I end up needing to take a tent and sleeping bag, being so far away from any civilization
by stlhulsey on Jun 19, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
so your BBQ grill isn't just for tailgating
but also for survival, as you use it to heat your broccoli and tomatoes
by BHWick on Jun 19, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the new busch isnt awesome either
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jun 19, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
jealousy
is not a good trait to have
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been
It’s nice. But Camden Yards or PNC it aint my friend.
by kcbottom9th on Jun 19, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I particularly enjoy
the swimming hole located behind the outfield wall.
Oh, wait, that’s an eyesore, not a swimming hole…
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
by loyal2sdad on Jun 19, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
as an aside
the monocles DEFINITELY needs to be brought back
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 19, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
SPRINGFIELD KANSAS CITY RULES, SHELBYVILLE ST. LOUIS SUCKS!!!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Jun 19, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Still too easy to hit GR doubles?
Why do you say that? It’s not like we’re playing in Fenway (RF line) or Angels’ Stadium (both lines)…
by stlfan on Jun 20, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hillman gets every guy in the pen work.
Love the idea. Who cares if we may need a reliever in the next 3 days?
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
by Warden11 on Jun 18, 2009 11:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
it'd be nice
if our only long reliever (Wright) didn’t suck.
And Soria only threw 9 pitches.. so what?
by BHWick on Jun 18, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's only a so what if...
he’s unavailable tomorrow. If not, I agree with you. No problem with getting him work.
But, that’s all assuming we’re not going to discuss:
1) Soria moving to rotation
2) the currently insane definition of the closer role.
I think that’s what RR is getting at. We have an awesome resource who, because of his role (and how that role is defined today), is rarely involved in determining wins and losses.
by stuckinstl12 on Jun 19, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that last part is the problem
We’re not making use of Soria right now in close games.
"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"
by NHZ on Jun 19, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soria
is a pretty damned good reliever stuck on a team with a horrible manager in my eyes…i stress not a fan of hillman
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm
controversial opinion there.
by kcbottom9th on Jun 19, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if a reliever can't be used the night after throwing 9 pitches
either put him on the DL or trade him.
presumably the argument of making Soria a starter won’t be made besides the argument that Soria is on the verge of blowing out his arm if he throws on two straight nights.
Another reason for Soria’s usage is because the fucking team doesn’t have a lot of save situations because we’re playing like crap. It’s not like Trey is putting Wright in the game in the 9th in a save situation.
the problem of getting the ball to Soria is that Dayton traded in obscure relief pitchers for crappy relief pitchers
by BHWick on Jun 19, 2009 12:07 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That's not the point
The point is that Soria needs to be used in games when the score is close if we’re going to continue to justify only throwing him around 60-70 innings a year. Right now, it’s bizarre how we’ve used our best reliever.
"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"
by NHZ on Jun 19, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly what i was thinking
9 pitches. 9. Nine. N9ne.
Relax
Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
by focs on Jun 19, 2009 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know it isn't just about tomorrow
but also saturday, and sunday as well
by royalsreview on Jun 19, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do look forward to another week of Olivo starts
after BPena went 2 for 4 tonight
by BHWick on Jun 19, 2009 12:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fortanutely for me, I was driving to StL and missed the debacle
But I did get to listen to the Cardinals pretty much the whole way… what a treat…..
Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.
by 306008 on Jun 19, 2009 1:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ahhh...the drunken ramblings of mike shannon
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jun 19, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
god
hes horrible
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Geez, must you arrogant St. Louis fans be the "best" at everything!?!?
Mike Shannon cannot hold a candle to the awful Bob Davis!!!!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Jun 19, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The NL is still pretty bad
But so are the Royals, unfortunately.
"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"
by NHZ on Jun 19, 2009 1:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did you see the Beyond the Box Score power rankings?
Linked in one of the game threads, but here: . I guess this is all driven by tRA? The pitching has been good but offset by horrible offense and atrocious defense? How does that still result in a 9th ranking?
I’m always up for positive info and I rarely question sabermetric analysis that appears thorough and reasonable. But that shit doesn’t jive.
by stuckinstl12 on Jun 19, 2009 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I questioned it a couple of weeks ago when the Royals were still 6th (I think),
the reply was that the league adjustment added with the pitching really makes them look good. Again, I just don’t understand it.
If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.
by Warden11 on Jun 19, 2009 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soria
Sorry, but I think your data is quite misleading and simply serves to support your argument. First of all, for the sake of your argument, you conveniently cut-off at one-run or tie games only. If you were to add in appearances in two-run differential games (and granted, these are not quite as in jeopardy as a one-run or tie game—yet, still, though, these games are certainly still in peril, even with just the ninth inning to close out) then these statistics are not nearly as squewed as you are making them out to be.
And secondly, run differential, alone, is simply not fully indicative of the challenge facing relievers as they enter baseball games. Now it would be if relievers only entered to start each inning, but, of course, this is not the case. A reliever entering a game with a one-run lead with two out nobody on (which could be done simply for a matchup situation—i.e., a lefty pitcher to get out a tough lefty hitter) is a far less challenging situation that a reliever entering a game with no out, bases loaded and a two run lead, right? Yet your data/analysis here would only recognize the one-run lead situation. I’m not saying this would favor Soria (it fact it probably wouldn’t as I believe that most times Soria is given the benefit of starting the ninth inning fresh, rather than coming in when there are already runners on base) , but it does make your analysis less relevant on an overall basis.
In summary I don’t feel that a broader look of your assessment that Hillman’s use of Soria is ‘extreme, stupid’ is either fair or accurate.
by vonner12 on Jun 19, 2009 8:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
another way of making a similar point to RR's.
We can all agree that a team’s “ace reliever” (currently normally used as a “closer”) should generally see the highest leverage situations of all the relievers, right? True, “traditional” closer usage isn’t very efficient, but it’s close enough.
Among Fangraphs’ leverage stats, gmLI measures the leverage when a pitcher enters the game. From what I’ve read and worked on, 1.8-2.0 is typical for closers over a season, 1.2-1.4 for setup men, etc. We use gmLI to measure managerial usage since it allow the relievers to increase their own leverage during bad outings, etc.
Currently, the highest gmLI among Royals relievers is John Bale, with 1.94. That’s a sample size issue, probably, given that he’s just back. Soria is #2… at 1.38. Well, at least it’s second highest, but you can hardly say it’s been maximized. Especially since #3 is Jamey Wright (surprise surprise) at 1.35, Juan Cruz is #4 at 1.31, and Sidney Ponson at #5 with 1.26. Those are seasonal averages. Soria is not playing in situjiaitons a team would like to put its best reliever in.
Currently, Soria isn’t even in the top 20 in the AL for gmLI. He comes in behind non-closers like J. P. HOwell (D’oh!), Jason Frasor, Jim Johnson, Ramon Ramirez (!), Danys Baez, Matt Thornton, Rafael Betancourt, Jensen Lewis, Phil Coke, and others.
For more perspective, last season, Soria’s gmLI was 1.78 ( pretty much normal for a closer, maybe a bit low, but not bad). HIgher than his current 1.38 were both Mahay at 1.44 and Ramon Ramirez at 1.42.
I think it’s quite fair to say he’s hasn’t been used efficiently.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 19, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many High Leverage relief opportunities have there been?
Without looking up the play-by-plays, it doesn’t seem there have a been very many. Even with optimal use of Soria i wonder how much higher you could get his average Leverage. It seems to be the trend with this team that we either have starters go deep and good, we get blown out or we come from behind late on.
He is still being used wrong. But the Royals overall crappy play is masking Hillman’s inefficient use of his best reliever. Maybe.
by kcbottom9th on Jun 19, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wondered about this
I’m not sure, either. The most telling thing to me was that Jamey Wright has almost the same gmLI as Soria — that’s screwed up.
The game logs only have pLI, not gmLI, so take this with a grain of salt. Going through some of the Royals relievers, here are the number of 2009 games where their pLI was greater or equal to 1.4:
Cruz: 9
Wright: 9
Soria: 6
Mahay: 5
Bale: 5
Farnsworth: 4
HoRam (relief): 3
Tejeda: 1
Ponson (relief): 1
That’s manually done, so I might be off… even accounting for his time injured… Soria only was in one more “high leverage” game situation than John Bale (who’s been back for how long, exactly?)? Juan Cruz is somewhat understandable, given that we expected him to be better (I still do) and that he was the de facto “ace” while Soria was out. Ron Mahay? Jamey Wright really takes the cake… Didn’t take long for him to turn back into a pumpkin.
Like I said, it’s not a perfect way to judge things, but the preliminary evidence isn’t great for TreyBall.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 19, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how about looking at the "%" of leverage handled by Soria?
this may mean taking some liberty with gmLI, but say Soria pitched 10 games with an average of 1.38 giving him 10.38 “leverage points”. you could then compare that to the other relievers’ “leverage points” (but you might have to only look at games where Soria wasn’t on the DL).
from there, we could see who is handling the most leverage and we could compare to other teams with high profile relievers/closers and look at their bullpen usage.
by benfunke on Jun 19, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well there's a pretty big leverage gap between 1 and 2 runs
and… as I mentioned above, it’s hard to give hillman credit for all those 2-run games either… if they had all been 3-run games, he still would have used him
by royalsreview on Jun 19, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Open letter to the Team
Guys,
ARIZONA. Seriously?
D. Moore
"Well, if we destroy Kansas the world may not hear about it for years." Blofeld
The General Theory of Royaltivity
by kabrink on Jun 19, 2009 8:58 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
D. MOORE REPLIES
The current state of our team in Kansas City, shows the ineptitude of my decision making by hiring Trey Hillman, and his ineffective use of the bullpen I have personally signed. Because of the current state of our franchise, I was unable to attract/sign any sort of good relievers on the market. I had to sign what no one else wanted, and therefore could not sacrifice the future of this orginization, and trade away what we have currently overpaid for and that no one else will take for anything significant.
my sincerest apologies,
Mr. Taking Your Money and Running
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops
read that wrong…
TEAM REPLIES
Mr Moore,
you overpaid for Meche, and Guillen we do not have enough money to buy a Glove big enough to make up for our collective lack of talent, furthermore until MLB allows us to use a bad the is 3ft in circumference to hit the ball, and or lets us you a aluminum bats, we cannot and will not be able to hit very well, thus wasting a possibly great talent in Zack Grienke and pushing him back into anxiety attacks when he allows 1 or more runs.
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we didn't overpay for Meche at all
we overpaid for Guillen, Crisp, Jacobs, Tomko. Yabuta, Bale, Farnsworth, Horam, Nomo
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 19, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to me
Meche’s contract was a bit much at the time of the signing
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's not our fault
you didn’t realize Meche was a #1 starter-quality pitcher
by benfunke on Jun 19, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Meche has never worn a Cardinals jersey...
so how good could he possibly look to one of “The Best Fans in Baseball” TM?
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jun 19, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
nope not at all
still fairly inconsistent, and maybe a #2, its pretty bad when your #1 is meche and Grienke isnt….btw way to pass on PUJOLS ill take him over Grienke and Meche anyday
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that it makes it any better
but the Cards did pass on Pujols 12 times too.
by The #1 Bockel on Jun 19, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
STILL
took the chance on him
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jun 19, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually...
I read that he was in the two drafts prior to that one as well and the Cardinals didn’t take him…so really, we passed on him like 112 times, or something ridiculous. I’ll still take the guy, I guess. :)
by stlfan on Jun 20, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Major League leaders in FIP (through June 18)
Greinke 1.92
Lincecum 2.05
Verlander 2.35
Halladay 2.52
Vazquez 2.67
Meche 2.89
Billingsley 2.91
Pineiro 2.91
Johnson 2.94
Peavy 2.99
I’ll take that “inconsistency.”
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jun 19, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So we have two No. 1s
and four No. 5s. :P
"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"
by NHZ on Jun 19, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone who thinks
the Gil Meche isn’t a very good starting pitcher is wrong.
Anyone who thinks that Zack Greinke isn’t a No. 1 is just an idiot.
"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"
by NHZ on Jun 19, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meche is a #1 starter
Almost his entire career but has horrible run support. Can’t blame him for that. In addition the dude has been lights out this year in particular.
This was a sorta gamble, and it has paid off very well.
I agree with you ‘at the time’ seemed a bit high, now???? No way, he is cranking.
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jun 19, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 game stretch
does not mean lights out
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meche's FIP since joining the Royals
2007 4.02 (lg. avg. 4.47)
2008 3.61 (lg. avg. 4.32)
2009 2.89 (lg. avg. 4.34)
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jun 19, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt he understands FIP
He’s too busy being one of the best fans in baseball to learn about baseball.
by kcbottom9th on Jun 19, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not all us hillbillies...
are like that. :) Oh wait, we’re all from MO (or KS…or OK…or yeah…you know.)
by stlfan on Jun 20, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but worth the money
Observe the FIP stat Sweep posted, doing much better than league average. So he deserves to be paid above league average, for a SP. He is, so there is really not too much of a foundation complaining “now” about his salary.
It worked out well.
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jun 19, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a 3-game stretch
But then, I don’t expect Cardinals fans to understand complicated stats such as FIP.
"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"
by NHZ on Jun 19, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meche wasn't an overpayment.
A lot of players are overpaid for what they “earned” in previous seasons with other ball clubs, then they end up looking “overpaid” on their current team. The Royals are paying him about what he deserves for his time here, whereas he may not have “earned” it previously.
by stlfan on Jun 20, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it's the National League!
Part of me finds it funny how everyone was criticizing how awful the National League was and then one of the worst teams in the League won the series…..
Its what some on this board deserve to be honest
by GobbleforCyoung on Jun 19, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i know
its like how everyone is saying that natoinals are worse than the yankees well the swept them so obviously the nationals are better than the yankees and world probably win the al east
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 19, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
the yankees are decent this year, does help them though that their stadium is a wiffle ball field. the Nationals are by far the worst team in baseball but even a blind squirrel find a nut
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
might want to check your sarcasm-dar
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 19, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
you know
its funny to me what the people on this board think of the national league…when most of my buddies are Cards fans and so am I i see the two leagues and and dont really see a difference, what it comes down to between leagues is who wins the world series
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
7 games between two teams defines the entirety of the league and tells the important parts of the story about the differences between the two leagues
exclamation point, exclamation point, one, exclamation point, one, one, exclamation point, exclamation point, one
by benfunke on Jun 19, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Regardless of the results of the riveting, competitive and marquee series matchup...
between the Royals and D-Backs, or what happens in a 7 game series at the end of the season, the overall interleague records show that the AL has been the superior league since 2005.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jun 19, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The National League is still by far the weaker league
But we stink.
"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"
by NHZ on Jun 19, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Jun 19, 2009 10:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interleague
Since 2005, AL has won 643 and lost 490 against the NL in regular season interleague.
The fact that the NL has won a couple of WS, or that the AL has won all the All-Star games lately, PALES in comparison to the sheer dominance reflected in that record.
That being said, it certainly doesn’t mean that there aren’t good teams in the NL.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
by loyal2sdad on Jun 19, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think the top 3-4 teams in the NL would still be pretty good in the AL
But there are a lot of mediocre to crummy teams.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Jun 19, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
same
with the AL, mariners, A’s, orioles, indians, and our Royals
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take those mediocre AL teams over the mediocre NL teams anyday
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Jun 19, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ha.
please quit talking.
by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Jun 19, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have no idea what you're talking about
"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"
by NHZ on Jun 19, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
find the royals record in interleague and your evidence might be supported, also the top 2 in payroll are
the yankees and red sox, and id say the Rangers, Mariners, and Detroit have a fairly large payroll as well
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RESEARCHED!!!
the AL in 2008 had 6/10 in the top 10 top payrolls
Cardinals were 11th
Royals 26th
Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat
by DESTROYER on Jun 19, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa
Landslide!
And the Royals record since 2005 is 47-34 In Interleague as of today.
by kcbottom9th on Jun 19, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Facts are hard.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jun 19, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DHs are more expensive than pinch hitters
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Jun 19, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The AL has a huge advantage in Interleague.
Most teams carry an extra big bopper to play at DH, whereas in the NL, we don’t pay a big bat to simply sit there on the bench 147 games a year so in those precious 6-9 games we can win 3 more games.
As for the argument that in the 6-9 games per year that you have to travel to an NL stadium and must have a pitcher bat…well, they usually only bat two or three times a game…so that’s about 12-27 PA a year. (6 so far this year, 9 in ’08, 23 in ’07, 21 in ’06, 24 in ’05…you get the picture). You (AL) can pinch hit later in the game when it might matter more, whereas we (NL) have to hit an Aaron Miles, or Nick Stavinoha, or the like 3-4 times per game.
by stlfan on Jun 20, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll be that guy
Yes, I still think Soria should be moved to the rotation. As for injury risk, well, he got hurt as a reliever, didn’t he, so perhaps arguing that it would be an injury risk to move him is moot?
This post sorta SCREAMS that moving him to the rotation might be the best use for one of our few talented assets, doesn’t it?
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
by loyal2sdad on Jun 19, 2009 11:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
But I’m done beating a dead horse. It ain’t never gonna happen.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Jun 19, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2005
What is “The last time that Joakim Soria started a regular season game at any level”
and that was in Mexico. He never started ONCE in the American minors.
But in some twisted way, if Soria has multiple arm injuries… THEN WE NEED TO GIVE HIM MORE WORK
by BHWick on Jun 19, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mean to be an asshole,
but you don’t present any evidence that suggests what caused his arm injuries in the first place.
For example, it could be argued that it was more injurious to use him in consecutive days, as is required of a closer, than it would be to judiciously use him as starter throwing once every 5 days.
We assume all the time that some guys have a “rubber arm” and therefore are suited for bullpen usage. This would imply that other guys are the opposite, and are more suited to throwing 100 pitches every 5th day with less wear and tear on them, right?
The main point of the Soria to the rotation argument is that the Royals can’t afford the luxory of using a talented arm as the closer – they need to at least find out how his skills would translate to the rotation, because they have limited talent in the first place, and a valuable SP contributes more to winning than a valuable closer.
If the Royals had 4 starters as good as Meche and Greinke, with Banny being the #5, THEN they would be able to afford this luxory. Until that happens, they need to KEEP SEARCHING for more good starters, and if they have one right under their noses but lack the COURAGE to find out, then they deserve to continue to wallow in mediocrity (and that’s being generous – they are wallowing in something worse than mediocrity, IMHO).
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
by loyal2sdad on Jun 19, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Danged if you Do, Danged if you Don't
Hillman was being blasted (not necissarily by this board, as this is my first ever post) for NOT doing exactly this, getting Soria some work in during stretches when there weren’t any save situations earlier in the season. Come to find out, Soria had an injury. Which, is why Cruz has so many more games logged in tight spots. I think this is an example of how you can often come up with statistics to prove your point on either side of an issue.
by Tito42 on Jun 19, 2009 2:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't remember anyone wanting him to "get work"
I think people wanted him to use Soria in a few close games we had, starting in the 8th inning.
I see no benefit or hard thinking regarding the “getting him work” logic. What was served by having Soria pitch last night?
by royalsreview on Jun 19, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's wrong
with getting Soria involved in games to regain his presence on the mound and command of his pitches in real-game scenarios so that if he is needed in a clutch situation against the Cardinals this weekend, some of the proverbial rust is shaken off? We can all agree he hasn’t been OVERused this season, so he should be available for this weekend in any kind of save situation.
While I can’t say there is any reason why he HAD to be in the game last night, to say that pitching him for an inning last night is indicative of season-long mismanagement is blowing the decision out of proportion IMO.
by Tito42 on Jun 19, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why didn't they use him in the 5th
When the game was still in reach?
No, lets wait until we are completely blown out in the 9th to use our best pitcher. So incredibly dumb.
by kcbottom9th on Jun 19, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess part of the problem is
when you only use in him in approved closer situations, you create a situation where he suddenly is always rusty, and no one can figure out why, ohh, damn the bad luck
then he “needs” to pitch in a 10 run game
its two sides of the same coin
by royalsreview on Jun 19, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fundamental problem so many people have with how Soria is used
is that Hillman seems to adhere to the prototypical, antiquated, and illogical notion of a “closer” role. The issue isn’t that he necessarily won’t be available tonight or later on this weekend, it’s simply that his use last night (in the 9th inning of a game that had become meaningless and realistically unwinnable) shows that Hillman is unwilling to “get Soria work” in the actual “clutch situations” you are referring to, when his ability would be most useful. By irrationally adhering to the rigid “approved closer situations” RR is talking about, Hillman is creating his own problem he says needs to be fixed. There have been plenty of high leverage situations this season in which Soria could have been getting regular and much more valuable work.
You’re new, so you don’t have the benefit of reading the dozens of posts and hundreds of comments that have talked about it on RR this season, but I think that pretty much sums it up.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jun 19, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
good
summation
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jun 19, 2009 6:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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