The 600/1200 Rule and Predicting Future All-Stars
I am not a scout. I am not a sabermagician. I have no professional, college, or even high-school baseball experience, either as a player or as part of a front-office or coaching staff.
In fact, my direct association with the game ceased to exist around the 6th grade, when, while picking grass while "manning" right field, I had an epiphany: carrying a lifetime .057 batting average wouldn't be opening any doors for me in the world of baseball.
In other words, I'm no expert. You can take everything I am about to write with a grain of salt, dismiss what I say, and disagree with me entirely.
But be prepared to eat that grain of salt on a serving of crow, as I am 100% correct.
Well, maybe.
Introduction to the 600/1200 Rule
Like clockwork, there is a time each season where I abandon hope of the Royals winning the pennant and instead start to wonder what will happen next year and beyond (see DANSSTOAD). That moment arrived about a week or two ago, and while I still check the boxscores each day, it's less with an interest in seeing the score, and more an eye at individual performances, to see if there's any reason to be optimistic about the future of our younger players.
Specifically, my main concern was whether our core of younger players (Butler, Gordon, Callaspo, and Aviles) would ever be able to hit well enough to anchor a playoff-bound offense, Or, more simply, whether these guys would ever turn into all-stars.
This naturally lead to a couple of questions:
1. How does one define an all-star?
2. Is it even possible to predict if Player X will become an all-star?
I took a bit of an arbitrary approach to #1 -- I defined an "all-star" as any player capable of amassing an .800 OPS or higher. (Similarly, I have defined a player with a .900 OPS or greater as a super-star.)
I'm sure I'll catch a little flack from some on the site, as not all .800 OPS'ers are built the same -- for example, OBP is likely much more important than SLG. That said, an .800 OPS is an .800 OPS, and for a team that's only featured four guys over the last three years to have topped that mark (Callaspo, Sanders, Aviles, and DeJesus), we should be ecstatic if we can add two or three more names to the list, no matter how that OPS was arrived at.
To answer #2, I decided to look at commonalities between all of the players that managed to cross both the .800 OPS and .900 OPS thresholds over the last nine years. What I found was a melange of different playing types, ages, positions, and backgrounds. Some of the guys on the list were perennial all-stars (Pujols, A-Rod, etc.), some guys who were rookie sensations (Ryan Braun, Hanley Ramirez, Evan Longoria), and some were guys that seemed to come out of nowhere (Russell Branyan, Nelson Cruz, Jack Cust, Ryan Ludwick, Raul Ibanez.)
It was this last group, the Late Bloomers, that intrigued me the most -- with little exception, the majority of these players had been in the league for a few years, perhaps sporting a decent minor league pedigree, but never showing enough at the major league level to warrant extended playing time.
Despite the seeming disparity in player profiles, after a bit of digging, I was a bit surprised how easy it was to spot future all-stars. They all had the same thing in common -- and I was even more surprised that I had never come across this idea previously, even though it intuitively made sense. Maybe this has been explored and discussed countless places before, maybe it''s already so obvious to the majority of baseball fans that it doesn't even warrant discussion, even among casual observers of the game. But this discovery was new to me, so there's likely one or two of you that will find this at least a little interesting.
So what was the common thread?
Basically, there were two central precepts at play here. Which leads to Rule #1:
Rule 1: The first 600 at bats in a player's career don't
matter...
After looking at the career statistics of all 100+ players who had managed to post an OPS of .800 or greater over the 2000 - 2009 seasons, one thing proved to be true. No matter how poorly they had done in their initial 600 at bats (even if spread across several seasons), it had little to no bearing on how they would perform later on. This was almost universally true for all of the future all-stars, with only a handful of exceptions (roughly 6 - 7 %) which I'll get into later.
Here are but a few examples of how the first 600 at bats are irrelevant:
Jermaine Dye
1996 ATL 292 at bats OPS .763
1997 KC 263 at bats OPS .653
Career OPS .830
Mike Sweeney
1996 KC 165 at bats OPS .770
1997 KC 240 at bats OPS .668
1998 KC 282 at bats OPS .728
Career OPS .854
Hideki Matsui
2003 NY 623 at bats OPS .788
Career OPS .847
Raul Ibanez
1997 SEA 26 at bats OPS .500
1998 SEA 98 at bats OPS .699
1999 SEA 209 at bats OPS .734
2000 SEA 140 at bats OPS .630
Career OPS .829
Adam Lind
2007 TOR 290 at bats OPS .678
2008 TOR 326 at bats OPS .755
2009 TOR 269 at bats OPS .915
The list literally goes on and on, but I think you get the idea. Whether you chalk up this phenomenon to small sample sizes or as a "necessary adjustment period" to major league pitching -- the fact is, you shouldn't dismiss a player based on his first 600 at bats, particularly if the player has shown a tendency to hit well in the minors. What's sort of interesting is that age really doesn't play a factor -- it's mainly a function of opportunity.
Another cool example is Casey Blake, who is OPS'ing over .881 right now. Here's his first 6 years in the majors:
1999 .677 OPS
2000 .646 OPS
2001 .746 OPS (NY) .521 OPS (BAL)
2002 .521 OPS
2003 .723 OPS
Blake was 26 years old when he logged his first ML at bat, and it wasn't until age 30 when he got extended playing time in 2003 (557 at bats). It would have been very easy to write him off as a scrub based on those pitiful numbers. One thing to realize is that he had only logged just a shy over 600 at bats from 1999 - 2003 (including his 557 at bats in 2003). So, according to the 600 rule (which I am stretching a bit here, if only slightly), you shouldn't give up on him. And true to the rule, he's OPS'd over .800 in 3 of the 6 years since.
Of course, there are a few instances where common sense dictates that it is indeed okay to give up on the player, like with Tony Pena, Jr., where there's nothing in either his major league or minor league profile that would suggest he would ever hit better than he does currently.
Considering the mildly disappointing starts to both Gordon and Butler's careers, (and "disappointment" is of course subjective and debatable), this was encouraging news, as their sub .800 OPS's seemed to belie what was their true talent. But then I discovered rule #2:
Rule #2: ...But the first 1200 at bats do matter.
Almost without fail, everyone who has posted a .800+ OPS season over the last ten years has posted an OPS of .800 within at least one 500-600 at bat stretch during his initial 1200 at bats.
Among all of the players who had managed an .800 OPS in a single season from 2000 - 2009, about 93% had posted at least an .800 OPS in one of their first two seasons (or equivalent). For those players who had managed to make it to superstar level (.900 OPS or higher), the baseline was an OPS of about .850 OPS during one or both of their first two seasons.
What's interesting here is that this was true across the board, regardless of position. For example, you may have often heard, like I had, that catchers take a long time to develop.
It is for this reason that for years I have waited patiently for John Buck to blossom into an all-star caliber hitter. He had often showed flashes, he had the build, but he just hadn't put it all together. Had I applied the 1200 rule after his first 1200 or so at bats, I would have realized earlier that my waiting was in vain.
The simple truth is, if a player is ever going to hit .800 OPS or greater over a sustained period of time, the proof of their ability to do so should be evident within their first two years. A brief look at all of the premiere hitting catchers (Ivan Rodriguez, Mike Piazza, Jorge Posada, Javy Lopez, Joe Mauer) over the last ten years has proven this to be true. It didn't take them years to adjust -- they basically came up and started hitting -- if not in year one, in year two.
In other words -- if you're good enough to start hitting, you're going to do it right away, otherwise it's not going to happen.
Of course, sometimes it does happen. Sometimes a guy who fails to post an .800 in their first 1200 at bats goes on to have an excellent career.
Ironically enough, this was the case with our own Carlos Beltran (though he logged a .791 in his first full year), and there are a handful of other guys to which this applies (Gary Sheffield, Luis Gonzalez, and Sammy Sosa are among some of the more notable guys) These counter-examples are rare, and even in most of the cases, if they didn't clear .800 in their first 1200, they did it in their first 1800. And while it's probably a little unfair to note, some of these guys were heavily rumored, if not confirmed, to have used steroids, so there's at least the possibility that they've skewed the results.
The corollary is the other type of guy who posts an .800 season without having one in his first 1200 at bats. These are the flukes -- the Edgar Renteria's, the Juan Encarnacion's, or the Shea Hillebrand's. At most, they will likely only provide one or two more .800 OPS seasons, but it is usually a crapshoot when and where that will occur.
While some of these players may add value to their team defensively, the odds are very heavily against them repeating their .800+ seasons, so astute general managers will know not to rely on them to be offensive sparkplugs for their respective teams.
Not so astute general managers end up spending millions of dollars on guys like Gary Matthews, Jr., and to a lesser extent, Jose Guillen. While the Rule of 1200 may tell you who will become a star, it's just as likely, if not more likely, to tell you who won't become a star (or maintain their current stardom.)
What does this mean for the Royals?
What's sort of unique about the four players I mentioned at the top of this agonizingly long post was that they all could go either way with this, depending on how generous you feel.
Right now, only Aviles is in the running for future all-star, under these two rules. Although of the four, he's the one I feel least likely to actually be able to capitalize. Most of Aviles' offensive value was tied up in a very unsustainable high batting average. It would appear his .800+ OPS of 2008 was a fluke, but considering the current state of the Royals, it wouldn't hurt to give him a season to prove otherwise.
Callaspo's probably in the best shape under this scenario, provided he's able to keep on his current pace. His minor league numbers provide a lot of reason for optimism here, too.
As for Gordon and Butler, it's difficult to get too excited. A year ago, I saw a future George Brett and David Ortiz. Now, and especially in light of the trend I've seen among the players I surveyed, it seems more likely we're looking at something like Shea Hillebrand and John Olerud. Not terrible, but certainly a let down considering the hype surrounding these players.
Of course, Butler still has about 400 at bats remaining of his 1200, so if he picks things up, we can begin to dream a little again. And even if he doesn't manage, he's still young, but if this study proved anything, it doesn't matter what age people are when they get their chance -- they'll either hit right away or they won't. And if they don't, there's little reason to expect they'll start doing it later.
6 recs |
48 comments
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Comments
Some splits
Billy Butler’s first 600 PA (2007 through July 8th, 2008): .279/.338/.405
Billy Butler’s career so far (1100 PAs through June 20th 2009): .282/.335/.423
Tony Pena Jr’s first 600 PA (2006 through April 6th, 2008): .257/.274/.345
Tony Pena Jr’s career so far (850 PA through June 20th, 2009): .231/.251/.305
Trey’s gonna need 350 more PAs for TPJ to make a true call about him
by BHWick on Jun 21, 2009 7:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In response...looking at the Royals' current players:
(I know I’m going a little too literally here, just so that’s out there.)
Billy Butler got his 600th AB in his last PA of the July 28th, 2008 game against OAK.
After that point, he finished the season with a .752 OPS.
He has a .767 OPS so far this season.
He’s at just over 1000 AB now.
Alberto Castillo hit the 600 AB mark within this month. Waiting on close to 600 more AB to see.
Mike Aviles has yet to hit the 600 AB mark, but he’s close.
Mark Teahen hit the 600 AB mark on June 28, 2006. He had a .668 OPS that season and a 1.001 the rest of that season. His ‘05 campaign (part of the original 600 AB) had a .685 OPS. His first 1200 probably averaged out to right about .725. Since then, he’s been around .750.
Alex Gordon had just under 600 AB his first season, and had a .725 OPS. He’s had just over 500 AB since then with a .771 OPS. With 143 AB to make 1200 total, he’s got a career .748 OPS.
by stlfan on Jun 21, 2009 8:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dear God..
Did we bring back Alberto Castillo, or did you mean Callaspo? :)
by AxDxMx on Jun 21, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, don't get too down
just wait until Jeff Austin & Colt Griffin, Jimmy Gobble & Zack Greinke, Alex Gordon & Billy Butler, Mike Moustakas & Eric Hosmer get here…..then, look out AL Central!!
by Top Ramen on Jun 21, 2009 9:09 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I guess this is another context in which to talk about Mark Teahen
2005: 491 PAs, .685 OPS
2006: 439 PAs, .874 OPS
2007: 608 PAs, .763 OPS
2008: 623 PAs, .715 OPS
2009: 259 PAs, .784 OPS
by royalsreview on Jun 21, 2009 9:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He's getting closer
Just a few more years of seasoning.
by AxDxMx on Jun 22, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't get this guys career
though it looks like he’s made a mild comeback of sorts
I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me
by LeoBloom on Jun 22, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I may be simplifying things, but I think that injury in '06 really de-railed Teahen's career
by marbotty on Jun 22, 2009 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it certainly didn't help
Defensively, of course, almost every system has him as terrible at 3B, and this year is following suit, but offensively… yeah…
He was very lucky re: batted balls in 2006, and fairly unlucky last season.
It’s too bad — this year, he’s a decent hitter. But the problem is that while he hits well enough to be a decent 3B, he’s terrible defensivelly there. But he really doesn’t hit well enough to be an everyday player in the corner outfield unless he can be a plus defenderout there, which I’m no longer convinced he is…
Still, he’s better than Hoagy or Frenchy.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 22, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
God I hope this works
Here is another guy that started off with an OPS well over .800 that turned out to be shit.
Kevin Mench

And this is also a guy that I was keen on and thought deserved another shot after some injuries and really wanted the royals to take a chance on
Erubiel Durazo

Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
by focs on Jun 21, 2009 9:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Meh. Kinda small but usable
Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
by focs on Jun 21, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that what she said?
If all else fails, stop using all else
by ksuroyals on Jun 21, 2009 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Durazo just constantly putting OPS' in the .800's and .900's
Only year he sucked was when he was hurt in 05’
Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
by focs on Jun 21, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too late now probably lol..
he is 35
Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
by focs on Jun 21, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
props on the graphic
seriously, I could never do that
it’s interesting that people talk about Durazo like he proved something wrong about AAAA players, but basically: he hit
by royalsreview on Jun 21, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember him for killing the royals a lot also
but those type of players come in abundance
Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
by focs on Jun 21, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow holy shit..
Go look at his Minor League OPS’ also.. just amazing…
Last season in a Mexican League he OPS’d 1.002
It appears he is playing in Mexico again this year but only played 15 games and not doing so hot.
He was last affiliated with the yankees in 2007 in AAA in 95 AB’s OPS’d .788
Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
by focs on Jun 21, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last season in a Mexican League he OPS’d 1.002
He can be our next Aaron Guiel!
by marbotty on Jun 22, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously, though, did he get hurt in 2005?
If not, I don’t know why a team would give up on a guy who had OPS’d .919 the previous year, especially after only 150 plate attempts.
by marbotty on Jun 22, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one more thing...
what I like about what marbotty is saying here is that it can almost be distilled into a yogiism or something: if you’re going to hit, eventually, you’ve got to hit
regarding Gordon, I have no idea what to think anymore… the injury this season is really going to make judgements difficult for awhile. this was a big year for him (potentially) from a development standpoint, and the year got blown up
as for Butler, he just hit 1100 PAs, and he’s a career .282/.335/.433 hitter at the big league level, which is at once pretty impressive considering most guys his age are still in the minors, and, I’ve gotta say, a little disappointing
by royalsreview on Jun 21, 2009 9:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Butler is a strange one to judge
Because he is still young. You don’t get too many Justin Uptons who come and tear it up at that age.
I still have a lot of hope for him as a Tony Gwynn Lite. Bit less average, bit less OBP, a touch more power.
His minor numbers just scream at you that he’s a guy who can flat out hit.
by kcbottom9th on Jun 21, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
let's hope
without the ever-growing waistline, too
by benfunke on Jun 22, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure what the point of having him play so much with the big league club the last two years was
I mean, we’ve talked about it before, but really all that’s been accomplished is eating away at his cheap years
by royalsreview on Jun 21, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
[Snarky Dayton Moore player development comment redacted]
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 21, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They had to give us something to believe in
or why go? Hosmer and Moustakas will probably stay down til they are more than ready. I think they’re learning from their possible mistakes.
by AxDxMx on Jun 22, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More than anything, this has convinced me that players that are able to hit will do so regardless of what age they enter the league
Within reason, of course. There’s a question of the body maturing — you can’t reasonably expect a 15 year-old to be able to hit a major-league curve. Also, it’s unlikely we’ll have too many 43 year old rookies mashing after 600 at bats.
As for guys like Justin Upton, they either have the ability to hit when they come on board, and just need a large enough sample size to demonstrate it, or there really is an adjustment period to take into consideration. It might very well be a combination of both. The point is, truly great players are great right away (within the first 1200 at bats) – that’s the case with almost all of the guys you’ll see that have reached superstar status — Pujols, ARod, Braun, Longoria, etc.
So it would seem Butler’s unlikely to be a superstar. I’m not ruling out star-level, though. The one saving grace was that he was very close to the .800 level in his first season, with a .794 OPS. And the .800 measure is an arbitrary cut-off anyway, so that’s encouraging. The downside is he didn’t hit his .794 over the course of a full season, but rather roughly 1/2 or so. It’s really difficult to predict — I’m not ruling him out, but I think we have to curb our expectations a bit (thus the John Olerud comp.)
by marbotty on Jun 22, 2009 6:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wonder if the 600/1200 cutoff also shows why the Royals never seem to get much offense
from the minors.
Guys like Costa, Kila, Huber, Dee Brown, etc, put up nice numbers in the minors, but get spotty at best playing time to avoid “confusion in the clubhouse”. Due to a lack of patience by the organization, they never get the 400+ ABs in back-to-back seasons. In Huber’s case, he didn’t hit in 98 ABs, spread across 3 seasons.
by Top Ramen on Jun 22, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
who knows anymore
they’ve taken the opposite approach with Butler/Gordon, and the results haven’t been great
you know what the Royals really suck at? having 26-28 year old AAA guys inserted into the lineup in their prime
Aviles is the only recent example I can think of
by royalsreview on Jun 22, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is why...
What’s sort of interesting is that age really doesn’t play a factor — it’s mainly a function of opportunity.
I don’t get very optimistic when someone bitches about Butler’s performance and then someone else does the “HE’S ONLY 23!!!” response. Billy’s sitting on 1017 MLB AB’s. By the end of this year, I think we’ll have a very good sense of what we’ve got. Which will probably be a .775-.825 first basemen with (probably) adequate defense (for at least a few more years). Billy being younger will only mean that we’ll get a few more years of meh performance before the inevitable decline comes.
By the way, if you’re still looking for encouraging/optimistic news about Billy’s probable career at the plate, then don’t look at his “Similar Batters” list on B-R.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jun 22, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Post BTW
Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
by focs on Jun 21, 2009 9:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
jim thome is a nice example
his third full season, he hit .266/.385/.474 and that was it, after that he began a sixteen year run thats still ongoing
I wanna know what love is, I want you to show me
by LeoBloom on Jun 22, 2009 1:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but this never happens to the royals
our guys are d-bags that aren’t going to amount to shit, because our franchise is a total buttf@ck. if thome played for us, he’d be justin huber (or mike sweeney or ken harvey or …).
Kansas City Royals - rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic since 1994.
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Jun 22, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yup
Mike Sweeney = Huber/Harvey/Jacobs
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 22, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
not the same, obviously
he was a much better player than those three, but the outcome was somewhat the same-injured and not producing to his potential. just another letdown in a 15 year run of letdowns.
Kansas City Royals - rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic since 1994.
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Jun 22, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, I think he actually outproduced
what you’d expect from a catcher taken in the 10th round. That was one where the Royals “lucked out” in a way with lower round choice. I think his later injuries leading to a fast decline, coupled with a poor contract on the part of the Royals (I don’t think Sweeney can be blamed for that contract, at least) make him seem like a disappointment.
Contract aside, even considering his limited defensive abilities (although he wasn’t as bad at first as a lot of guys — Jacobs, Dunn, etc.), he had enough of a bat to be a very good player. From 2000-2002 he was an excellent overall player, and also had good years in 1999, 2003, and 2005.
6 good years out of 10th round draft choice is a rare instance of good fortune for the Royals, whatever dumb contract decisions they made with him (after the season, I’ll do a proper “contract retrospective” on Sweeney’s extension). And that’s just on a performance level — I’m leaving aside his position in the community (maybe it doesn’t matter at all, but it certainly didn’t hurt).
I’m not ripping on you. Although I was never a Sweeney hater or basher like some people, I don’t think I ever really appreciated him enough, so this is sort of penance for me.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 22, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
btw
you can probably tell that i’ve really reached the point of despondency with this team. i just wonder if it’s ever, EVER going to change in this town with this team.
it doesn’t seem to matter what the royals do, it blows up.
Kansas City Royals - rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic since 1994.
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Jun 22, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I understand
teams like the Rays should give the Royals hope. The team is in a rough spot, with if management can make good decisions and not panic, the team can be competitive in a fews years. The Rays had a combination of near-perfect decisionmaking AND all the right breaks. You can’t expect allt he right breaks, but in the AL Central, consistently good decisionmaking can result in at least a few playoff appearances, which would be nice.
I’m trying to mellow out, but I don’ thave much confidence in the current F.O. making those decisions. Then again, Kenny Williams’ White Sox have been pretty good for a number of years. I’m not sure whether Dayton’s even as good as Kenny, but even if he isn’t, he isn’t THAT much worse.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 22, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still feel the strongest about Butler
His minor league track record was SO outstanding; combine that with reaching the majors at such a young age, which often has signature significance of its own, and I am actually confident Butler can obtain star status, meaning consistently posting 825-875 OPS numbers.
Is he good enough for superstar status; i.e., over 900 OPS consistently? Could be hard to argue that that will happen – but he is still young enough for that much more development to occur.
I’ve always thought he would be the superior player to Gordon, and still feel the same way, for what it’s worth.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
by loyal2sdad on Jun 22, 2009 11:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he'll be a superior hitter to Gordon
But a superior player? Gordon’s been far more valuable in both 2007 and 2008. He’s been a better hitter in 2008, but Butler’s younger. IN every other respect — position, defense, baserunning — Gordon is clearly better, and unless injuries get in the way, I don’t see that changing.
Again, assuming that they are both average defenders at their respective positions, over a full season, a 1B needs to be about 10 runs better in hitting/baserunning to be of equal value to a 3B. That’s about the difference betweeen DDJ and Grudz in 2008.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 22, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ooops, messed up the positinoal adjustment
that should be
assuming that they are both average defenders at their respective positions, over a full season, a 1B needs to be about 10 runs better in hitting/baserunning to be of equal value to a 3B.
In other words, a defense relative to position being equal, hitting being equal, same baserunning, over a full season, if the 3B who league average, or about 2 WAR, the 1B will be barely above replacement level (0.5 WAR).
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 22, 2009 2:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good hitters are good hitters
It seems like the conclusion here is that guys who end up being all-stars don’t consistently suck for their first three years in the league. And the method used to determine that seems reasonable to conclude that if a player sucks for his first three years, you shouldn’t expect him to be an all-star. But I’m more interested in the other direction. How many players are good in the first couple of years, but then end up not being all-stars for the rest of their career? In other words, if a player passes the 600/1200 test, do you sign him to a lifetime contract, or is there still a chance he’s Angel Berroa? (Please answer this question ASAP. You can’t tell anyone this, but my real name rhymes with Peyton Poor, and I’m trying to decide whether I should trade for Jeff Francouer.)
I am Billy Butler's Gold Glove.
by cbrett42 on Jun 22, 2009 4:52 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That study should be easy
just limit it to Royal prospects, and you might end up with most of the population data right there.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
by loyal2sdad on Jun 22, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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