Are the Twins a rival?

by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Jun 30, 2009 3:21 AM EDT Comment 32 comments

Do you hate the Minnesota Twins? Your response is most likely like mine. "Yeah, they're in the division...and they're always doing things without money just like we should be, but I don't HATE the Twins...their fans seem nice and there's nothing all that threatening about the Twin Cities." So my answer would probably be no, but there is something to the relationship between the Royals and Twins.

So...What is it that links these teams aside from the division?

First, geography.

The Royals and Twins share boundary lines in Iowa, Nebraska, and the Dakotas. However, due to growing apathy in the Royal fandom, Iowa and even parts of Nebraska have been lost to the nationally dubbed loveable losers, the Cubbies. Further, it is not all that long of a drive from Kansas City to Minneapolis, somewhere between 8 and a half to 10 hours depending how reckless you'd like to be on the road. As such, LOTS of Twins fans come to the games at Kauffman Stadium (most likely because it's outdoors and tickets are cheap) because it is close. Also, a surprising number of Royals fans show up on camera at the rightful indoor ballpark in Minneapolis. There is crossover here.

via donstuff.files.wordpress.com

Seriously, northern Nebraska, the Dakotas, and Grass Creek, WY....call Nike and voice your displeasure with their cartography (1-800-344-6453)

Second, envy.

While not all of us agree that the "Twins way" is what makes them good (it's more likely pitching and a willingness to play to their ballpark while still getting OBP), the Twins thrive in a small market in a way we wish the Royals could. Here's a table for that...

YEAR	Twins Payroll (division finish)	Royals Payroll (division finish)
2001	24.13M (2)	35.42M (5)
2002	40.23M (1)	47.26M (4)
2003	55.51M (1)	40.52M (3)
2004	53.59M (1)	47.61M (5)
2005	56.19M (3)	36.88M (5)
2006	63.40M (1)	47.29M (5)
2007	71.44M (3)	67.12M (5)
2008	56.93M (2, lost one game playoff)	59.25M (4)
2009	65.30M (2)	70.52M (4)

Envy forms the basis for many rivalries in sports (Browns/Steelers, old Yankees/Red Sox, Kansas/Kansas St., Cardinals/Cubs, even Royals/Cardinals), and this one may be closer to our noses than we think. While we can hate the White Sox because of their utter lack of class (beating up old people is not okay for those White Sox fans seeking clarification on this comment), the Twins just do what we're trying to do but better. The division finishes do not follow the monetary investment, and, therefore, their baseball people are smarter than our baseball people, at least those paid to do it, ironically, by the Glass family. So much for Wal-Mart bargains and smart-shopping. It hurts to see someone like you succeed while you fail, repeatedly.

Third, the people and crossovers.

Our current TV Broadcaster is the Twins former radio broadcaster.

via www.wickedlocal.com

My name is Ryan LeFebvre, and I am an alcoholic. I've been sober since I left Minnesota.

One of our worst free agent acquisitions ever was a former Twins All-Star.

via imagecache2.allposters.com

Look out Keith Olberman's mom! Knoblauch is throwing baseballs!

We hawked a year off of this future hall of fame Twin.

via www.mattspenandpaperheroes.com

He hit .199/.317/.375 in his final season in 1975 playing for the Royals, hitting the last 14 of his career 573 homers. Take that Minnesota (and Washington, D.C.)!

Hitting rivalry...Brett vs. Carew?

via i.cnn.net

via i.cdn.turner.com

Look who's closer- Happy Gilmore

Fourth, the many Twins heroes created by the Royals and Royals pariahs created by the Twins.

Lew Ford: LeFebvre once compared him to Joe DiMaggio when he plays against the Royals. Outside of those situations, however, he was not a very good ballplayer.

via img.photobucket.com

Luis Rivas: Perhaps a grander, and dumber, comparison by LeFebvre, Rivas was compared to Ruth after more than one multiple homerun game against the Royals (34 total career homers in 2100 AB in 8 seasons.

via images.minorleagueball.com

Okay, so the connections here are weak, and I'm reaching for something that I cannot find. The bottom line is that the Twins are a division opponent, and their fans are occupying the seats at Kauffman Stadium at an alarming rate. They embarass us constantly with some of our more famous meltdowns (See Joel Peralta vs. Craig Monroe, among others), while proving the point that market-size does not doom you to regular season failure, at least not in our division. So, to come back at it, are the Twins a rival? I certainly don't want their borderline Canadian accent and Miller Lite nonsense any more. Let them have hockey and eat it too.

Poll

Are the Twins a rival?

Yes, I hate them

36 votes

No, but they annoy me

61 votes

No, don't ya know they're nice folks?

66 votes

No opinion

11 votes

174 votes | Poll has closed

2 recs | Comment 32 comments

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Comments

I will admit

part of my anger is because our franchise has been so freaking inept over the past several years and they constantly make us look like buffoons. That fucking smug look on Joe Nathan’s face when he comes in to close out another Royals loss makes me want to hit something really hard.

What makes it even more aggravating to me is that in all reality, the Twins are just not very good. They are somewhat like the baseball version of the Chiefs were under Marty, waiting around for the other team to make a mistake, but when the teams get better in the playoffs, that strategy doesn’t work.

if there was one thing about their organization that i like, it’s their commitment to an organizational philosophy. that seems to be what has been missing from the royals for a long, long time. hopefully that is changing with DM.

Kansas City Royals - rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic since 1994.

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Jun 30, 2009 8:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I hate Mike Redmond

I don’t know if his stats are a lot better against us but it seems like he was always hitting against us and his average was always shitty.

by The #1 Bockel on Jun 30, 2009 9:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Him and Luis Rivas.

Redmond vs. KC – 97 PAs .430/.485/.477 0 HR 15 RBI

Rivas vs. KC – 248 PAs .287/.336/.511 12 HR 43 RBI (12 of his career 34 home runs were against us)

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jun 30, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've always had an affinity for the upper Midwest

And the Twins are kind of a model small market franchise with a stingy owner – they show how we could do it if we weren’t run by morons.

Honestly, the only Central team I hate is the White Sox. I hated the 90s Indians, but even now I don’t really dislike them all that much. I have much more hate for the Red Sox and Yankees.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jun 30, 2009 9:48 AM EDT reply actions 6 recs

I have complex feelings towards the Twins

I wouldn’t say I hate them, per se. It does piss me off that they always finish above .500 and at the very least compete for the division and/or wild card every year despite the fact that I can’t name more than 3 players on the team (Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, and 23 guys with names like Greg Smith or Mark Johnson who either hit .250 or pitch at around a 4.00 ERA).

Mostly I just respect the hell out of their organization. There’s a reason that they perform well consistently, year in and year out. A lot of it has already been said here, but I think the biggest reason is that their front office understands replacement levels. You don’t see many overpaid Mike Jacobs or Jose Guillen types in a Twins uniform. The money they save on avoiding players like that is spent on more Mark Johnsons and Greg Smiths—guys that are far cheaper but are still average or above average if not good. But if you’re average or above average at every position and you sprinkle in a couple of key guys (e.g., Mauer and Morneau), chances are you’ll win more than you lose and be in the race every season. It doesn’t seem to matter when it is in the season or how well they’re doing… you can never count out the Twins.

So I am really annoyed by them but I understand and respect what they do and wish the Royals could emulate it. I’d say that Minnesota (in a possible tie with the Rays) has dethroned the Moneyball-era A’s as the model small-market team. All that said, all of my postgame feelings are intensified when we play the Twins. If we win, I feel even better than usual. If we lose, I feel even more like punching a baby.

by Soria's Unibrow on Jun 30, 2009 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

I really love their pitching philosophy

They draft guys that can throw strikes and every year they are at the top of the league in fewest walks given up. Makes for much more pleasing games to watch when your pitcher can throw strikes.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jun 30, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

what's annoying

is that they compete despite having a terrible hitting philosophy that contradicts their good pitching philosophy — both of them hate walks.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

by devil_fingers on Jun 30, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And terrible outfield defense

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jun 30, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Delmon Young is every bit as good as Jose Guillen, at only age 23!

He’s seriously “mature” for a player his age.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

by devil_fingers on Jun 30, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What?

No mention of Gagne and Gaetti – those were some great steals by the Royals from the Twinkies…

I've got crazy flipper fingers!

by labbadabba on Jun 30, 2009 11:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The vendor's perspective

I don’t hate their team at all – like others have said, they are what we could be…if only we had a brain.

Per capita, the Twins fans come down and COMPLETELY blow the St Louis fans away in dollars spent at the ballpark. Selfishly, as a vendor, I’d rather have 9 home games vs the Twins and 3 vs the Cardinals than the reverse of that, which would be the case had we switched leagues. By the way, that applies even with the Cards games avg 50% more attendance than the Twins games.

Added bonus – the Twins fans are polite, respectful of our struggles (since they are small market also), and root for their team without looking down at ours. This stands out in STARK contrast to the Cardinal fans.

As for our division rivals, I can really only muster up hatred for the White Sox; I suspect I am not alone on this one. Between their hooligan fans, obnoxious announcers, and overall unfounded pretensciousness, I really do hate them. The Twins? Hell, I ADMIRE them for doing what we should be doing.

Agree totally with Home Run Tony, in that the Twins at least seem to have embraced a defined organizational philosophy. Their pitchers refuse to walk batters, and they always have good bats at the positions you are supposed to have good bats, while having good gloves at the positions that require good gloves. Add in their ability to always cobble together a decent bullpen, and you have a formula for continued success in a small market.

Back to their fans – I watched the Min – STL games on cable over the weekend, and was DELIGHTED to hear a very audible Minnesota contingent in the St Louis crowd. GLAD to see St Louis find out what that’s like in their stadium!

Big difference between Minny fans at the K and STL fans at the K – Minny fans come down to enjoy outdoor baseball, and they come to spend money. STL fans are cheap bastards who can’t afford good tickets at their own park, so they come to KC and pretend to be big shots while not actually spending jackshit.

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Jun 30, 2009 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs

great observation re: st louis fans

there is a totally unwarranted arrogance from st. louis fans and st. louises in general. funny b/c st. louis wishes they could be chicago.

my biggest worry with this team is that DM suddenly starts to feel the heat (or the heat is turned up by the Glasses) and he starts doing stupid shit like promoting Moustakas or Cortes to the bigs before they’re ready, and then the whole cycle starts again. At some point we’ve got to have the patience to see things through. Believe me, I am NOT saying that for sure DM is the be-all end-all and is going to be successful, but we’ve got to see this plan through to see if it works or not.

Now is not the time to start panicking and trying something different every year. That is not to say that we shouldn’t look at trades that are going to be an overall improvement to the organization (I still say that we should look at trading meche and/or soria for several pieces).

Kansas City Royals - rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic since 1994.

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Jun 30, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

except, one question to your statement

we’ve got to see this plan through to see if it works or not.

Um, what plan? Do we know what it is?

"Well, if we destroy Kansas the world may not hear about it for years." Blofeld

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Jun 30, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes, i think we do know

devote significant resources to acquisition and development of talent from the minor leagues, with more of a focus on scouting than stats.

agree or disagree, i think that is the plan. it also may not work out. but, it may work out spectacularly.

and, you know what? i’m pulling like hell for the guy to be successful, because i want my team to be successful. i want my city to be successful, and i don’t really care if we do it with scouting or stats (unlike some people who insist that it be done a certain way, and everyone else is an ignorant idiot).

Kansas City Royals - rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic since 1994.

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Jun 30, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK, well we've had that debate before

Are we on the “build through the minor league org” plan or on the “win now” plan – or both. I think we’re on both. The problem being can we really pull that off with the resources we have? It’s not looking like it.

Yes, though, of course we all want this guy to succeed.

"Well, if we destroy Kansas the world may not hear about it for years." Blofeld

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Jun 30, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

what we really SHOULD have done was devote this stupid money we've been giving to bad players....

and signed the top latin guys last year and this year….it’d probably be cheaper, and definitely pay off more down the road

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jun 30, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How DID I forget Gaetti and Gagne...

oops

Farnsworth's imitation tight-pants now on sale at Dick's!

by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Jun 30, 2009 12:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

FACT: The Royals and Twins have only made one trade in their storied histories

Their deep hatred for each other has caused them to swap players just once – when the Royals sent Tom Burgmeier to Minnesota for Ken Gill.

Other notable players who played for the Royals and Twins:
Ted Abernathy
Ken Brett
Chili Davis
Jim Eisenreich
Denny Hocking
Pat Kelly
Scott Leius
Shane Mack
Joe Mays
Dave McCarty
Doug Mientkeriqerzierwicz
Jose Offerman
Mark Redman
Rick Reed
Jerry Terrell
Rondell White

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jun 30, 2009 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Joe Mays

what a fucking winner. Right up there with Albie Lopez, Neifi Perez, and Runelephant.

Kansas City Royals - rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic since 1994.

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Jun 30, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He had some good years

with the Twinks.

I've got crazy flipper fingers!

by labbadabba on Jun 30, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Retro

I see nothing on there about Dennys Reyes, how could you miss him!!

by I need more Esteban on Jun 30, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BIG SWEAT

Farnsworth's imitation tight-pants now on sale at Dick's!

by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Jun 30, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chiming in from Minnesota

I’m torn about the “rival” status about the Twins and Royals. Sure, you play enough games against a team every year (thank you unbalanced scheduling) and you get sick enough of each other, but I don’t think that warrants rival status? The Royals have been on both sides of the coin for late season spoilers…you guys sweeping the Tigers a few years back to let us win the division was nice of you….and then you took the last series of the year against us last year to force a tiebreaker with the ChiSox…which we lost. I guess the real test is, as a Twins fan, what do I think about when I think of when I think the Royals? Empathy…and that’s not a great emotion to build a rivalry on.

by Circle Me Bert on Jun 30, 2009 3:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Just thought of something else

Minny wins points for beating the Cards in the WS; Detroit loses points for losing the WS to a really average STL team 3 years ago.

Forgot to mention, while watching the Twins-Cards over the weekend, the announcers brought up the famous WS when home team won all the games, then NOT SO SUBTLELY brought up the air conditioning theory about the Metrodome. (blows out with Twins up, in with opponents up)

Personally, this is one of the most idiotic things I’ve ever heard in baseball – but just like the bullshit about Denkinger in 85, the Cardinal organization can’t let that WS loss to the Twins go either. The other team NEVER beats the Cardinals because they were better – there is always another explanation. BULLSHIT.

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Jun 30, 2009 4:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Could you imagine

If the Cards had lost the ’06 series after the Kenny Rogers dirty cap thing….I still heard crying about it, after the series had been won.

Holy Shit!!!...Peterson resigned...Am I dead?...Is This Heaven?

by RoyalsFanStuckInCardsLand on Jun 30, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I picked "hate them"...

…but I don’t really mean that. It’s a somewhat friendly rivalry if anything. Most of the reasons have been covered by others but it kind of boils down to the fact that they really shouldn’t be that much better than us. I think we could have done the same thing if only we had just a little bit of competency over the years.

I have a lot of friends who live in the Twin Cities and are Twins fans. Anytime they lose to KC they’re bitching about losing to the “sucky Royals” and when they win they’re patronizing so those games mean more to me personally than games against the White Sox, a team I really hate.

One thing I will say is that they really do love the Twins up there. Everybody follows the team and seems to know what’s going on with them. Once again, something I think KC could have with a few good years.

Also, I can make it from Lawrence to Minneapolis in just over 7 hours. I don’t think I drive THAT fast, do I?

by Pauli on Jun 30, 2009 4:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Also

Also the constant talk about how “they play the right way” and JoePo’s love affair with Gardenhire annoy me.

by Pauli on Jun 30, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I picked "hate them"

as well. Only I truely hate them with a passion and I mean it. It’s not friendly at all.
I hate their uniforms, stadium, and goofy fans.

by Royal from Queens on Jun 30, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Twins are NOT a small market team

The Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area is ranked 17th in size in the U.S. Every metro area ahead of them has at least 1 team except for Riverside, CA (NY, LA-Anaheim, Oakland-SF, and Chicago have 2), so they rank 18th in baseball for size out of 30 teams. Seattle is just slightly ahead of them by about 15,000 people. The Twins rank ahead of such notables as San Diego (20th), St. Louis (21st), Baltimore/Washington DC (23rd and 24th as they have 2 teams!), KC (29th), and Milwaukee (30th).

So while you can compare the Twins to KC as a “small” market team. Know that the Royals truly are small market, and the Twins are 61% bigger with their metro area and they are spending $5M LESS this year than the Royals. That puts them at 24th in MLB. I would imagine they up that considerably for their new stadium, and maybe they are saving room to sign Mauer long term. But if KC can hit $70M, the Twins should be able to do $100M.

Source

by AxDxMx on Jun 30, 2009 5:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Actually I see a few inconsistencies in that link

Washington DC is listed 9th with the Baltimore area, and then they rank the Baltimore area again with DC later. Also, the Twin Cities metro area ranks 16th on the list not 17th. So moving up the Nats and Orioles ahead of the Twins pushes them back to 20th. But the population difference between us and them still hold.

by AxDxMx on Jun 30, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you are forgetting

that the Twins currently play in a indoor football stadium that no one would want to watch a game in. Especially on a nice summer day. So maybe when the new outdoor stadium opens next year the Twins can add more payroll (and the will have to if they hope to resign Mauer). But even thought MSP is larger than KC, I would be willing to bet that KC draws more on average than the Twins.

by STLVikesFAN on Jul 1, 2009 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I never disliked the Twins until college,

then I had a Twinkie fan across the hall (he was from Minnesota). He was a great guy but I heard way too much about Hrbek and Puckett to be able to enjoy them anymore.

If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.

by Warden11 on Jul 1, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs