For Gobble4Cyyoung.....and whoever else

What's done is done

BOOM! ROASTED!

by GoBabies!! on Jul 14, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

So after, I mean IF Betancourt fails

which one of Duffy or Montgomery get traded for Diory Hernandez?

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Jul 14, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Duffy, Montgomery, and Butler in a package deal

by Soria's Unibrow on Jul 14, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You forgot Soria, Gordon, Moustakas, Hosmer, and Crow.

We HAVE to get our SS!

by AxDxMx on Jul 14, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Other 2005 Mariners to target:

1B Richie Sexson
2B Bret Boone (he’s only 40!)
C Yorvit Torrealba
2B Jose Lopez
P Eddie Guardado
P Ryan Franklin
P Julio Mateo

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 14, 2009 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

man that was a solid team

I've got crazy flipper fingers!

by labbadabba on Jul 14, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

how many of those guys have been confirmed to have rocked the roids?

by stuckinstl12 on Jul 14, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh man, Everyday Eddie

by Soria's Unibrow on Jul 14, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t exactly understand what you’re point is. You think Cortes is still a great prospect and I don’t agree. In Moore and Royals’ management’s eyes, Cortes has already failed as an upper tier prospect when he completely regressed his 2nd year repeating AA. It’s pretty simple, he’s not as good as he was last year and has added another off the field incident to his checkered resume.

I would like to add that if Cortes improved ever so slightly or even maintained his level of production from last year I would be as upset about this trade as any of you. But he has regressed across the board – he lost 2 more games than last year and given up almost the same amount of walks in 7 less starts, he’s not striking out as many batters either and his batting average against is worse.

And as far as Betancourt being the worst player in baseball. You are talking about 200 at bats in 2009. In 2008 he was ranked 18th out of all the qualified short stops.

And to be honest, I wish Dayton didn’t say “I don’t understand, I really don’t” about his thoughts on defensive metrics. He should have said he doesn’t agree with the statistics.

I’m not sure how you can. So Mike Aviles was the best defensive SS in MLB last year? He was ranked #! In Fangraphs for all non qualified participants! So that’s it. Mike Aviles was the best defensive SS in MLB!

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=n&type=0&season=2008&month=0

Actually Orlando Cabrera was the best defensive SS in MLB in 2008! Check out fangraphs again!

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=0&season=2008&month=0

But after only 1 year he is the 3r4d worst SS in MLB in 2009 according to fangraphs:

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=0&season=2009&month=0

No these numbers are ALOT more skewed than anyone on here wants to admit.

by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 14, 2009 5:08 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs

the point of this was....

cortes put up very similar numbers to duffy and montgomery…who you seem to think make cortes expendable. But Cortes’ regression goes to show exactly WHY you dont just give away pitching prospects, even, and especially those whose stock is at its’ lowest point. You never know what is going to happen with them.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 14, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gobble

This is your best post ever. You lay out a point, and give facts to back it up. +1

And Billy, I think your point is somewhat nullified by choosing to ignore Gobble’s (and my) point that he has shown regression while repeating AA. Monty & Duffy haven’t shown regression to this point, so they are better prospects IMO

BOOM! ROASTED!

by GoBabies!! on Jul 15, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

they probably are better prospects...

but they’re far from sure things…and cortes is far from a non entity for this teams future. He still could be a good player. He’s not a guy you give away for a far below replacement level player.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 15, 2009 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

No, Cortes is not a great prospect. But he is a GOOD prospect

And he was traded for a shitty player. He wasn’t traded for a decent player or an average player. He was traded for an AWFUL player. Get it? Yuniesky sucks. The numbers show that pretty clearly. He’s awful. And when you trade a good prospect for an awful player, that’s a pretty horrendous trade? Get it now? It really isn’t that complicated.

If you think Yuni is better than awful, could you please explain where you get that opinion from? Could you please support it with something?

I’m really starting to wonder if you’re just trying to be wrong with every opinion you state. You are on the wrong side of every argument. It’s actually quite impressive.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 15, 2009 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

i really just think he's basing his opinion on hopes that yuni turns into something he's never been

optimism is fine. hoping he turns into something is fine. trading a prospect for a guy who is horrible isnt….nor is justifying it.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 15, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apparently

And one shouldn’t expect a player of his age with his fairly extensive track record to suddenly turn into a player he’s never been.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 15, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BUT YOU CAN'T DENY MOORE WAS RIGHT ABOUT GIL MECHE

and as I understand it, that’s the only transaction he’s made the past three years

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Jul 15, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

dont forget when one of allards scouts found soria in the mexican league

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 15, 2009 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's not pretend that Moore hasn't done anything right

You’ve got to be realistic and give credit where credit is due. Regardless of who originally hired the scout who found Soria, Moore retained that scout (while letting other Baird hires go), and his scouting report was checked, cross-checked and evaluated by Moore’s front office staff. And Moore and his people made the choice to actually select him in the Rule 5 draft. Moore deserves the credit for Soria’s acquisition, period.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 16, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh...im not saying he hasnt done a couple good things....

but outside of meche, soria and spending a ton of money in the draft, what is there? Ram-Ram? He nullified that great move. Bert was a good move. MacD trade worked out…until he fucked that one away as well. Am I missing anything?

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This isn't a complete list

Off the top of my head, some other positives include:

- Adding another minor league team
- Increased international scouting and international FA acquisitions
- Grienke extension
- Riske signing (decent performance and then the FA compensation got the Royals a sandwich pick)
- Dotel signing (decent performance and then the trade for Davies)
- Trading Burgos for Bannister

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 16, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

adding a minor league team was a product of glass deciding to start spending money
-see above
-greinke extension—good move at the time, great move in retrospect
~~riske signing~~—solid, but $4 million (i believe) is alot to pay for a reliever…solid but not great
~~dotel~~-again, solid, not great
-burgos for banny…great move even if i hate banny

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and i have NO idea why shits crossed out...

i dont even know how to do that

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You can’t just give Glass credit for everything that involved spending money. Glass gets credit for being willing to shell out the money. Moore gets credit for spending it wisely (when he actually spent it wisely). For instance, Moore gets credit for devoting resources to Meche, an additional minor league team, more international scouting and FA acquisitions, etc. Moore also gets the blame for devoting resources to Guillen, Farnsworth, HoRam, etc.

I think Riske and Dotel were good signings because for the money they spent the Royals got their production plus Davies and the sandwich pick (Montgomery, I think).

What’s to hate about Banny? The numbers tend to support the contention that going forward he’s likely to be an average MLB starting pitcher.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 16, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

his postgame talks piss me off...

that’s really all i have against him at this point. i didnt like that trade at first, and i was quite obviously wrong about it. i just contrast him to meche/greinke after their starts. banny will give up 6 runs in 4 innings and tell us about how he pitched well and all that nonsense…i like accountability is all.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah thanks for the insult NY - given I was commended by Babies for this was my post ever lol

I’ve said this a few times and several people have acknowledged my defense in different posts. And if you can’t grasp the truth is this I don’t know:

He’s an upgrade over TPJ, and with Bloomquist missing the last few games and TPJ/Hernandez getting regular playing time there, it was needed.

THIS IS AN UPGRADE AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL. Did we surrender a prospect with a chance to be a Major League Player??? Yeah, maybe. Did we surrender a prospect who might never make the MLB? Yeah, maybe

I’m actually basing my opinion off two things: Cortes isn’t in the Royals plans, and two, Betancourt can get close to his 2006, 2007 level, which would make him an average defensive SS (ranked 11th and 12th respectively in UZR) and a slightly below average offensive SS.

But NY, I’m not arguing he doesn’t suck. In 2008, and his performance in 2009, has been awful, but awful is replacing horrendous (TPJ) so I’m ok with this move.

Feel free about other arguments I’m wrong on? Jacbos is horrible? check. Crisp sucked in May/June? check. Hochevar going to be our 2nd best pitcher? check (he’s outpitched Greinke since he was recalled). Maier .230 OBP being a huge detriment? check. Don’t hold me to offseason rants bout Guillen and Farnsworth – I already admitted I was wrong

by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 15, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You keep saying it is an upgrade at the MLB level, but ANYONE would have been an upgrade

Here’s a list of shortstops in AAA, at least a handful would have been improvements over Yuniefi. They aren’t that hard to find:

Beamer Weems POR SS 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.000 1.000 2.000
Ed Rogers REN SS 19 69 17 23 6 0 0 11 29 1 14 3 0 .329 .420 .333 .749
John Raburn NAS SS 3 6 1 2 0 1 0 1 4 1 0 0 0 .429 .667 .333 1.095
Everth Cabrera POR SS 7 27 5 9 2 0 0 0 11 1 6 1 0 .379 .407 .333 .787
Donovan Solano MEM SS 50 156 18 50 7 0 0 14 57 8 26 3 0 .361 .365 .321 .727
Andres Blanco IOW SS 44 155 18 49 9 0 4 25 70 8 19 3 1 .351 .452 .316 .802
Mike Morse TAC SS 66 260 38 81 14 0 10 52 125 20 50 0 0 .370 .481 .312 .851
Kevin Frandsen FRE SS 64 253 39 77 10 2 8 33 115 12 22 2 3 .355 .455 .304 .810
Chris Woodward TAC SS 51 174 24 52 12 1 1 15 69 19 30 4 0 .369 .397 .299 .766
Alcides Escobar NAS SS 87 345 61 102 23 5 3 28 144 24 57 30 7 .348 .417 .296 .765
Angel Sanchez LAS SS 80 290 45 85 19 4 3 31 121 19 44 0 2 .342 .417 .293 .759
Luis Hernandez OMA SS 20 72 8 21 3 0 0 13 24 4 3 0 1 .325 .333 .292 .658
Craig Stansberry POR SS 68 221 23 63 13 1 3 24 87 27 42 2 1 .364 .394 .285 .758
Cliff Pennington SAC SS 84 296 41 84 20 3 2 36 116 40 41 26 2 .368 .392 .284 .760
Tyler Greene MEM SS 39 145 25 40 2 2 4 17 58 22 36 18 2 .386 .400 .276 .786
Tommy Manzella RR SS 86 343 40 93 19 3 3 22 127 27 61 6 2 .326 .370 .271 .696
Joaquin Arias OKC SS 78 330 37 86 9 0 2 37 101 12 31 15 2 .287 .306 .261 .593
Josh Wilson REN SS 15 50 5 13 3 1 1 10 21 7 8 1 1 .350 .420 .260 .770
Andy Gonzalez NEW SS 65 219 30 57 9 0 4 32 78 33 44 6 1 .361 .356 .260 .717
Chin-lung Hu ALB SS 82 313 38 81 13 0 2 34 100 18 36 10 2 .304 .319 .259 .624
Jonathan Herrera COL SS 76 241 44 62 6 4 1 22 79 35 35 15 4 .356 .328 .257 .684
Mario Lisson OMA SS 47 164 17 42 7 0 8 17 73 5 35 3 1 .282 .445 .256 .727
Sean Kazmar POR SS 68 216 24 54 11 0 4 33 77 19 31 3 1 .311 .356 .250 .667
Manuel Mayorson NEW SS 80 277 34 69 7 2 1 15 83 11 20 10 4 .279 .300 .249 .579
Abraham O. Nunez REN SS 49 145 17 36 5 1 1 15 46 34 20 0 3 .389 .317 .248 .706
Gregorio Petit SAC SS 64 241 26 58 13 0 3 20 80 18 53 0 1 .292 .332 .241 .624
Ryan Klosterman NEW SS 12 25 4 6 0 0 1 2 9 1 5 1 0 .269 .360 .240 .629
Jake Wald FRE SS 51 159 22 38 5 2 4 23 59 15 45 4 2 .307 .371 .239 .678
Guillermo Reyes REN SS 29 67 8 16 3 0 0 2 19 10 13 0 0 .338 .284 .239 .621
Gary Patchett SLC SS 52 169 20 40 4 2 4 16 60 14 31 0 4 .309 .355 .237 .664
Chris Gutierrez SLC SS 3 9 1 2 1 0 0 0 3 1 4 0 0 .364 .333 .222 .697

by AxDxMx on Jul 15, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Andres Blanco

Has a +.800 OPS in MiLB this year. Wow. Of course, his MLB line is a brutal .222/.276/.272/.548—now that’s the Blanco I remember.

Fun to see Angel Sanchez on there as well: .293/.342/.417/.759 on his 2nd year back from TJ surgery.

Yeah, it was a stupid screen name.

by CentralChamps2009 on Jul 15, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Beamer Weems Rocks

soon to change name to, "The Not So Curious Case of Benjamin Bratt"

by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jul 15, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Would you please leave us alone and go back to the Mets?

He’s an upgrade over TPJ, and with Bloomquist missing the last few games and TPJ/Hernandez getting regular playing time there, it was needed.

The fact that he is an upgrade over TPJ is almost irrelevant. TPJ is so horrendous that many awful SS’s would be an upgrade. That doesn’t mean that you should trade a good prospect for that upgrade to an awful player. Also, TPJ was merely a backup IFer. While horrendous, his impact on the club was minor because he’s not an everyday player. And he wasn’t going to be the everyday SS in future season either. The new awful SS is going to the everyday SS likely for multiple years. Basically this trade gives the Royals an awful player as an everyday regular for years, while TPJ was just a part-time player who likely wouldn’t be around for years. So the overall effect on the club is negative.

Also, Yuni is a downgrade at the SS position for years to come. He’s considerably worse than Aviles, who is now going to be a bench player or get traded away. So, for future seasons (when the Royals might actually have a chance to compete, as opposed to this year) the Royals will have a horrible everyday SS, instead of one who is at least decent: Aviles.

THIS IS AN UPGRADE AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL
It is an upgrade over TPJ. It is not an upgrade over Bloomquist. And whatever upgrade this represents is only for the 2009 season, a season in which the Royals have no chance of making the playoffs. For the 2010 season and beyond it is a big downgrade at SS because Yuni replaces a much better SS in Aviles.

I’m actually basing my opinion off two things: Cortes isn’t in the Royals plans

He’s not in the Royals plans? Why, because they traded him? Using that “logic” trading away any player is justified because the traded player apparently wasn’t in the team’s plans. He’s a good prospect who probably had a good future as either a starter or reliever. Regardless, he’s a prospect who had trade value. And the Royals wasted that value on a shitty SS.

and two, Betancourt can get close to his 2006, 2007 level, which would make him an average defensive SS (ranked 11th and 12th respectively in UZR) and a slightly below average offensive SS.

Is it possible that he could do this? I suppose. Is it likely? Of course not. Look at his last three seasons, weighting his most recent seasons more highly. That describes his true talent level best. THAT is what is most likely for the future. But you’re right that his ceiling is probably a below average SS. And if a player’s ceiling is below average for his position, then he’s an awful player.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 15, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Great, you don't like me and don't agree with my opinion. Doesn't mean you have to be a dick about it

I’m not going anywhere unless you want to ban me for not agreeing with you. I’m a Mets fan because I’m from NY, I grew up going to games and several of my close friends are Mets fans. If you grow up on Long Island you are usually a Mets fan and it’s a bond you share.

I’m not sure why you are even more infuriated than the average joe over this trade and it seems like you want to take it out on me by singling me out. “my opinioins are awful and I’m on the wrong side of every argument???” WTF are you talking about! And to think didn’t you just have a baby come into your life? Shoudn’t you be happy and high on life? Not flipping out on me because you don’t like my opinion about Betancourt and/or Cortes? Well, congrats. I have nothing bad to say about you or your opinion about Betancourt. I do have a problem with your understanding of the Royals SS situation. Bloomquist was not playing SS everyday and TPJ was getting regular time. So was Hernandez. Betancourt is better than those players if he even slightly improves. I’m glad you think Aviles is so great that the Royals made such an embarrassing move by acquiring the worst player in baseball. You must have not watched the beginning of the season, but Aviles WAS WORSE on offense than the worst player in baseball, Betancourt, and also had a negative UZR. He’s not a sure thing at all.

Ax don’t give me a list of AAA SS. You don’t even know what it would take to pry some of them form their current clubs. I’m sure some of them would be better than Betancourt, like Everth Cabrera, but S.D. would laugh in Moore’s face if that trade was propsed.

by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 15, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

NY

Who did you want the Royals to acquire at SS??? Or did you expect Bloomquist to For some strange reason you and Ax think some of these replacement level SS’s are easy to acquire. Absolutely not. Look at Hernandez, he STARTED for the Orioles last year and absolutely failed miserably but was still acquired by the Royals.

Find me a backup SS who can be traded for Cortes? Ask Poz or Neyer if that is feasible? We acquired one of the shittiest STARTING SS in MLB who actually helps are team if he can get a little better

by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 15, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not going anywhere unless you want to ban me for not agreeing with you.

You’ve already been banned under your original user name, “BillyButlerforMVP.” Then when you came back under this name, you were suspended. Both times it was for hurling obscenities at people. You won’t be banned unless and until you cross the line again. But, as you’ve said before, you’re not really a Royals fan. You’re a Mets fan who quit his team and went to the Royals for some reason and now you’re just fucking around here. You don’t actually care about the Royals. You’re just playing a silly game and wasting everyone’s time with your….insights.

I’m not sure why you are even more infuriated than the average joe over this trade and it seems like you want to take it out on me by singling me out.

I’m infuriated about the trade because I actually care about what happens to this team and I’m not the kind of fan who deludes himself into thinking that there’s a bright side to even the worst moves. And I’m not singling you out. I’m just responding to the inanity of your “analysis” of this trade. You just don’t get it. And by “it,” I mean “baseball.”

You must have not watched the beginning of the season, but Aviles WAS WORSE on offense than the worst player in baseball,

So a small sample of data when a player is playing injured tells you how good he really is? And the much larger sample of data from last year really doesn’t mean much? You just don’t get it. Again.

Who did you want the Royals to acquire at SS???

This SS from New York named Mike Aviles. I hear he’s pretty good. And he’s pretty inexpensive too. Does that fix the SS problem for 2009? Of course not. But who gives a damn? This team is going nowhere this year. Nowhere. But the Royals have a pretty good SS in the system who will be ready for 2010 and beyond at league minimum. He should be the Royals SS for the next few years, not the horrendous and more expensive Betancourt. Oh and you don’t have to give up a good prospect to get Aviles either.

This isn’t rocket science, kid. Try actually thinking about this.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 16, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are you serious?

Bill butler 4 MVP? I don’t even like him. You really need to get your facts straight before you accuse people of something. Unbelievable. You’re the one who just doesn’t get it. I have already explained to you how BIASED you were in your “suspension ruling” below:

Kcbottom calls me a retard, and I say, “shut up prick,” IN RESPONSE TO DEFEND MYSELF and you suspend me! Whatever, this has to end and I’m pretty tired of dealing with your constant criticism about me on an internet blog.It’s childish.

BTW, why does Aviles 2009 small sample size make him immune to judgment, but Betancourt’s 2009 small sample size make him the worst player in MLB? It’s already outlined all over here that he was an above average defensive SS in 2006/2007 and a below average offensive player in those years.

Lastly, I would like to say, you’re not a position to question how much I like a team. I’m on here quite a bit so obviously I care. The Mets seriously broke my will to continue as a fan the last several years (unlike the Royals the Mets have a chance to compete every year so it’s even worse, IMO, to get so close and fail than to never have a shot in the first place) However, I had my own lacrosse season to prepare for with the now defunct SF Dragons so I didn’t pay that much attention to baseball in the Summer of 2006 and during my season in 2007. After I was released/not offered a contract in August I starting paying more attention just in time for the Mets to collapse

by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 16, 2009 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You just don't get it

Aviles was injured in 2009. Remember that? He was PLAYING injured. That means less than 100%. So it’s not even necessarily small sample size, as much as it is, BAD SAMPLE.

Betancourt on the other hand has declined for the last 3 years. That is not a small sample size.

I finally get where you are coming from though. You are an athlete/player type. The players on the Royals thought this was a good move too. Hell, Greinke signed here long term because he liked the moves Dayton was making.

by AxDxMx on Jul 16, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bill butler 4 MVP? I don’t even like him.

Oh, so you’re just another Met fan from NY who abandoned the Mets at the same time to become a Royal fan. Oh, and with the same IP address too. Maybe you two are just roommates who share the same computer.

BTW, why does Aviles 2009 small sample size make him immune to judgment, but Betancourt’s 2009 small sample size make him the worst player in MLB? It’s already outlined all over here that he was an above average defensive SS in 2006/2007 and a below average offensive player in those years.

I’m using a standard, pretty common method of player evaluation. Let’s look at Betancourt’s last three years, weighting each year on a sliding scale with the more recent years weighted more heavily. Using that method, Betancourt is awful and Aviles is good. And even in Betancourt’s BEST years, his total offensive and defensive value made him a below average MLB SS. THAT is his ceiling. And he hasnt been anywhere near that ceiling for the last two years. So, by any rational, reasonable method of analysis, Betancourt sucks and Aviles is likely to be significantly better.

However, I had my own lacrosse season to prepare for with the now defunct SF Dragons so I didn’t pay that much attention to baseball in the Summer of 2006 and during my season in 2007.

If you are going to talk about baseball as much as you do here with as much certitude as you do (“Guillen is the Royals best hitter and it isn’t even debatable!!!!!!111”), I would suggest that you read up on the game of baseball and try to actually learn some things about it. Your extensive lacrosse background is not serving you well here.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 16, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Guillen's production was better last year

I thought it was impressive he hit 20 HR’s and 40+ doubles, as well as drove in almost 100 runs. I still think it is impressive as a Royal. He was better last year too, but I already retracted that statement and admitted being wrong. I was persuaded to think otherwise. It was more of an issue I had with the constant hate of Guillen and wanted to defend him a little, and can’ t anymore.

And I still root for the Mets too. I didn’t have to rescind being a fan of the Mets to like the Royals.

Please check your records again. I am not Billy 4 MVP. It’s a pretty stupid name in the first place and there is no way in hell we have the same IP address…..you shouldn’t be able to sign up through the same IP address

by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 16, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i agree with you on guillen getting more than his deserved hate....

its the cool thing to do to rip on guillen for doing something stupid…and rip on him for his contract (his fault). however, if you rip on davey after the 4th retarded play of the week and giggling about it, you’re attacked for criticizing one of our best players.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, and that's the annoying part

Whether I’m arguing Gordon couldn’t hit from 1-5 in the batting order or Mike Sweeney missed 360+ games, it all came down to being an idiot for defending Guillen at all. Even some people were saying if you take out the one and half months when he was as hot as any hitter in baseball, he the worst player in MLB in 2008. I’m like geez.

It really manifested itself when we faced Anaheim in May. Guillen was walking like crazy and had like a .380 OBP, but he makes a bad error in RF and we still lost by 4 runs, but the loss was solely Guilen’s fault and I see a stupid looking picture of him on a fanpost titled:

Thanks to Jose Guillen’s Completely Horrible Glove, Royals Fall to Angels, Connection to Arod, Manny Ramirez, Not Immediately Clear

And get this, even NYRoyal called out the bullshit on that!

by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 16, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'm pretty sure that title was mockingly making your point....

that yeah, guillen fucked up…but the entire loss wasnt on him….thats how i took it at least.

it pisses me off when people get more irate when guillen makes a first pitch out than they do when davey gets picked off again

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

DeJesus gets cut more slack because he’s a much better player overall who helps the team win. Guillen, on the other hand, gets and deserves no slack because he hurts the team greatly.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 16, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Guillen fully deserves his criticisms. DeJesus definitely does not

Look at offense, defense and position. DeJesus provides much better total value to the team, even if you disregad how much the two are paid.

DeJesus 1.6 WAR (best on the team)
Guillen -1.7 WAR (worst on the team and one of the very worst in baseball)

So Guillen gets more “hate” than is deserved? Huh? Doesn’t a player deserve a great deal of criticism for being one of the very worst players in baseball and playing almost every day, and thus hurting his team almost every day? DeJesus, on the other hand, has been one of the best Royals players for most of the past several years. But hey, he makes the wrong facial expressions and that’s what’s really important.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 16, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

guillen's skills have just deteriorated...thats not his fault...

its our gms fault for giving him all that money. nobody would turn that down. like i’ve said many times, physical errors or errors made for lack of ability, i can tolerate. errors made out of stupidity/laziness/lack of caring/lack of attention span/etc that i cannot stand. jose has some, but davey seems to have many more…those are why i attack davey like i do. yes, he’s a better player, but would it not be fair to criticize Albert Pujols just as hard if he consistently made mental errors? Those are acceptable b/c he’s a great player?

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fault?

guillen’s skills have just deteriorated…thats not his fault…

People are criticizing Guillen because he sucks. There’s no issue of fault there. He sucks. He’s a horrible player who hurts the team more than any other player. That’s going to rightfully lead to a lot of “hatin’”. Of course Moore is to blame for having given him that contract. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t rightfully describe Guillen has a horrendous baseball player.

like i’ve said many times, physical errors or errors made for lack of ability, i can tolerate. errors made out of stupidity/laziness/lack of caring/lack of attention span/etc that i cannot stand. jose has some, but davey seems to have many more…those are why i attack davey like i do. yes, he’s a better player, but would it not be fair to criticize Albert Pujols just as hard if he consistently made mental errors? Those are acceptable b/c he’s a great player?

Players (or anyone) deserve criticism for any mistakes they make. That’s fine. I’m fine with giving DDJ appropriate criticism for getting picked off, attempting too many SB’s or whatever else he does wrong. But he also deserves credit for being a very good position player and one of the few good ones on the team. The mistakes affect his value. But the net value of his negatives and positives is well to the positive side of the ledger. For whatever reason, you and some others give him more criticism for mistakes than praise for being a genuinely good overall player. In short, Guillen deserves a great deal of criticism for being a truly shitty baseball player. DDJ deserves praise for being a good player.

Would it be fair to criticize Pujols for making mental errors? Sure. But only if one also recognizes that his positives massively outweigh his mistakes. If, in addition to all of the great things he does for his team, Pujols made the kind of mistakes that DDJ makes, would it make sense to focus more on those mistakes than on how much he helps his team? “Sure Pujols is a great player, but he gets picked off too much and then makes the wrong facial expressions.” Do you see why that is a foolish thing to focus on?

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 16, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Guillen would be an improvement over Jacobs at DH right?

Dejesus is a very good player, as he was last year and he’s finally getting hot. He’s been our best player in July even over Greinke and Bannister. He’s gotten better every month since his shit start in April, which coincides with him move into the lead-off spot, wrongfully held by Crisp (.319 career OBP leading off past 4 years) Our only hope is him staying hot and Gordon sliding into the 2nd slot and hitting well all year or Callaspo moving in the two slot and sliding Gordon into the 6th slot.

by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 17, 2009 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Guillen would be an improvement over Jacobs at DH right?

No. So far they’ve both hit equally poorly this season.

Guillen .308 wOBA
Jacobs .308 wOBA

And I would project Guillen to be somewhat worse than Jacobs for the remainder of the season. FWIW, ZiPS agrees with me.

Guillen .327 wOBA (RoS)
Jacobs .339 wOBA (RoS)

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 17, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

definitely not fair to throw that cheapshot about him banning you for disagreeing with him....

damn near everyone on this board has had a disagreement with NY at one time or another….me included, many times, many of them heated…never has he once even insinuated that he was going to ban anyone for disagreeing with him.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

You’re banned.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 16, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

It sure as hell would not have taken Cortes and Saito to get a stopgap like Chris Woodward who is 33

I hear Boston is going to release Julio Lugo. That would have been a completely free upgrade if we could have waited just a little longer.

All those AAA shortstops are very legitimate options that the Royals could have obtained, some obviously taking more than others to get. So thanks for just outright DISMISSING my argument. I don’t know why I even bother.

by AxDxMx on Jul 16, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For UZR and other defensive stats

you need to look at more than half a season — two to three seasons ideally. This has been covered here many times previously.

Over the last three seasons and among the 27 shortstops with at least 1500 innings played, Stephen Drew (3142 innings, -23.3 UZR, -10.1 UZR/150) is the only thing keeping Yuniesky Betancourt (3175.2 Innings, -21.9 UZR, -9.2 UZR/150) from being rated the worst fielding shortstop in baseball.

by Gopherballs on Jul 15, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

thank goodness we didn't end up w/ Drew!!!!111one

I guess donnie murphy wasn’t available

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by devil_fingers on Jul 15, 2009 2:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

There's only one Y in his name, you know!

Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!

by mazoboom on Jul 14, 2009 11:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Aviles is a better fielder than Yuni

It’s just that no old school baseball people want to admit it because “he doesn’t look like a shortstop”.

Anyway, that “Aviles thing just didn’t work out.”

Fuck This Team. Period.

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Jul 15, 2009 12:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

AND

a FAR better hitter. I still believe in Aviles. BELIEVE.

Fuck This Team. Period.

The General Theory of Royaltivity

by kabrink on Jul 15, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like him too and will root for him to recover

I don’t konw how “fluky” his 2008 season was. His BABIP is a concern. Berroa also jumped on the scene as a rookie. The comparison is another concern

by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 15, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I just figured it out!

I was going to make a comment on how Betancourt doesn’t K very much and that HAS to be a plus.

But then I got to thinking about another player who doesn’t K but doesn’t BB either

Player A: .273/.317/.348
Player B: .279/.300/.392

Your 2009 Royals 2nd half starting shortstop
ROSSKY GLOADENCOURT!

Prepare for 1 gajillion slap-hit weak infield grounders

I still think it is a HUGE upgrade from TPJ, however.

by XBic on Jul 15, 2009 3:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think the critics of this trade overlook one thing.

Dan Cortes’s off-the-field issues. He may have talent, but if he doesn’t grow up, he’ll end up being another Brien Taylor.

I am sure every team knew of his sitting on the commode picture and the other situations. Good riddance.

by jbrocato on Jul 15, 2009 11:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

and I think the supporters of this trade keep overlooking

the fact that Betancourt is a below average ss who is now signed for at least 2 more years.

If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showforum=129

by Warden11 on Jul 16, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brien Taylor?

A number 1 overall, can’t miss, golden boy prospect? Got in a fight, broke his hand, and never pitched well again? I guess it’s a slippery slope to that when you piss on a fence and the cops arrest you.

by AxDxMx on Jul 16, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What off field issues???

The fact that there’s a picture of him smoking pot from when he was about 18? Is that an “off field issue?” Please. I think there’s a picture of David Price drinking a beer out there. Oh no!!!!!!

I’m sorry but this “off field issues” and “character” stuff about Cortes is nonsense. Those pictures were standard late-teen stuff. It’s what people that age do, and it’s been that way for at least two decades. Probably three. The ubiquity of digital phones, camera phones and internet photo sharing just makes it more public. It’s hard to imagine someone actually caring about the behavior in those pics at this point.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 16, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

YES BUT DON'T YOU EXPECT MORE FROM PROFESSIONAL ATHELETES????

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by devil_fingers on Jul 16, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wut aBoUT the CHildren!?!?!?!!11!?

These guys should be role models!!

by AxDxMx on Jul 16, 2009 3:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

arrested for disorderly conduct....

etc…..is what they’re referring to i believe.

by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Jul 16, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We've had presidents who were arrested for more than that

Disorderly conduct is first cousin to jaywalking.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Jul 16, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if that's their reasoning why is our wife beating, DUIing 2nd basemen still on the team?

or acquired in the first place?

oh, because he can play. cortes was not traded for his off the field incidents

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and that 'pot' picture...

could 100% be a hookah….

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

and lord knows marijuana certainly impairs one's ability to play baseball

that’s why Manny won’t touch the stuff

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by devil_fingers on Jul 16, 2009 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

assuming it is marijuana....

him smoking does not bother me in the least…the fact that he’s a professional baseball player and allows that shit to happen blows my mind. i’ve smoked some in my time, but there has never been a picture taken of me doing it…it just doesnt make sense

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

heh heh

I was actually just making a silly assumption that Manny does — remember when he picked “I got High” as his walk-up music? I was just sarcastically pointing out that a lot of these athletes use (or we assume) they use drugs and alcohol, and they seem to be just fine.

Personally, I have no desire to smoke marijuana and would be super pissed if my kids did, but I do think it should be decriminalized/legalized.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Jul 16, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ehhh....its pretty harmless really....

i’ve done a lot of really dumb shit while my head wasnt 100% clear…but never as a result of smoking….after jagerbombs, thats when the problems happen.

when did that happen with manny

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jul 16, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs