An Open Letter to Dayton Moore
Dear Dayton,
I know it's been a rough season for you. Things just haven't gone the way you planned, and although you can't come out and admit it to the press, I'm certain that you know mistakes were made. Terrible mistakes. Frankly, I'm disappointed both in the team's performance, and in the "process" you're asking us to trust; the former for obvious reasons, and the latter because it certainly seems to be a flawed process. That's what I'd like to talk to you about.
First, let me state that while I grew up on Bill James and believe that advanced statistics can tell us far more about the game than the back of a baseball card, I do not believe them to be the final authority. You can lie with statistics, after all. Scouting is important, and these statistics are not compiled in a vacuum. There are always other factors which I, as a fan, am not privy to which might explain things the statistics cannot. However, at the same time, those factors don't mean the statistics are wrong, nor do they mean that it follows that an analysis of the statistics is inherently wrong. A poor performance is a poor performance. Where these other factors come in is simply in explaining why we might be able to ignore a subset of those numbers, either because the organization has a viable plan to improve them, or because they're injury-related and expected to return to normal.
Your off-season moves weren't as bad as people would like you to believe they were; re-signing Zack was a no-brainer, signing Cruz was actually a good move even though it hasn't worked out well, and with Bloomquist you at least acquired a player who knows the difference between a strike and a ball in the dirt a foot off the plate. I will allow that perhaps you saw something in Coco Crisp in much the same way you saw something in Gil Meche, and Crisp's ability to get on base early in the season despite barely hitting his weight could be a point in your favor... assuming that's the sort of thing you expected him to do. Jacobs and Farnsworth, on the other hand... well, the process surrounding those guys is precisely what I'm going to talk about.
The first problem is the one you keep hearing about: OBP. The thing is, I think it hasn't been explained properly; too many people talk about walks as if you need to go get guys who walk a lot. I'm not one of those guys, Dayton. I don't automatically assume that a guy who doesn't walk 80 times a season is a hacktastic failure at the plate. It's not about drawing walks; rather, it's about being able to judge the strike zone. Put another way, if a guy hits .340 and slugs .500, I don't much care whether he draws walks on the face of it... but if such a player does not, in fact, walk a lot, it tells you about his plate discipline. I mean, we're taught growing up, playing Little League, that a walk's as good as a hit. It's both true and false; a walk is not as good as a hit in most cases, but it's so much better than an out that it may as well be as good as a hit. If there were only one thing that Bill James has universally contributed to baseball, I would hope that it would be the understanding that -- from the offensive perspective -- the only important mechanism toward increasing offense is to avoid making outs as much as possible.
Dayton, you've been in the game long enough to understand that in most cases, a "good hitter" will draw walks; it's not because he's up there trying to take ball four, but because pitchers give good hitters less to hit. I realize that scouts have a tendency to want to see guys swing the bat, and believe it or not I understand that completely. A scout has no idea whether a guy can actually be a successful hitter without watching his swing and seeing what happens when he connects. That's why the cliche with Dominicans is "you can't walk off the island," because they have to show scouts they can actually hit the ball.
But the problem with your process in regard to trading for Mike Jacobs is precisely that your scouts know he can hit, but you ignored the numbers showing he's not a very good hitter. Mike is a good guy. He's clearly got power in spades. But a hitter like Jacobs who doesn't draw walks is simply not a hitter the opposing team fears, or even respects. He's not as bad as Miguel Olivo, who'll swing at anything, but he's most certainly willing to chase bad pitches rather than forcing the pitcher to give him something to hit. And that's why Mike Jacobs, for all his power and desire and good nature, is now mostly sitting on the bench with unplayable numbers.
I've said all this by way of getting to the main point, which is this: you need scouting to tell you what players have the physical ability to do, but you need numbers to tell you how well they're translating that ability to success. You had those numbers with Jacobs, and you ignored them because you thought his potential outweighed his poor OBP. If Mike was a .340 hitter, nobody would care that he doesn't draw walks (well, some people would complain that he'd be an even better hitter if he walked, but that's like saying Tony Pena Jr. would be an even better hitter if he could hit). The problem isn't that he doesn't walk, but that he doesn't get on base. Of course, part of the reason he doesn't get on base is that pitchers know he's unlikely to accept a free pass.
I can't stress this enough. Pitchers won't give guys who swing at everything any pitches to hit. It's that simple. When numbers guys talk about walks, it's not in the sense that walks in and of themselves are a desirable outcome, but in the sense that they are a symptom of a condition. Guys walk because they work the count, and because pitchers are more likely to avoid throwing strikes; the walk is the residue of the pitcher's desire to avoid letting the hitter beat them with the stick. Guys who don't walk have no patience; there is no hitter in history who has a low walk total explainable by the fact that he always got good pitches to hit. Not one. They don't walk because they won't wait for the right pitches. The only guys who've been "good" hitters despite lacking patience have been guys who were simply astounding slap-hitters -- guys like Tony Gwynn or Luis Castillo. (And even Gwynn started walking more midway through his career, because even with little power a pitcher will start nibbling against guys who can hit .380.)
And that allows us to segue; pitchers also won't give in to guys who have no power, which is why Pena couldn't hit as a major-leaguer. Pitchers aren't afraid of the chance that their inevitable ground ball or weak pop fly will find a hole. Obviously, that's why SLG is important as well. But even a decent SLG can be deceiving, especially when your ballclub's primary problem is a lack of baserunners.
Yet you traded away a valuable reliever for Mike Jacobs despite having a monster of a prospect seemingly ready in Omaha -- one who performed better last September than Jacobs has this season, no less. Because of that trade, you apparently felt the need to acquire Farnsworth, compounding the issue. And the ultimate agony of all this is that there is one thing I think you're very good at: picking up players off the scrap heap who turn out to be useful either on the roster or as trade bait.
And here, you've amassed a roster of guys who either have no strike zone judgement or have no power (or both). DeJesus, Callaspo, and Butler are the current exceptions. (Teahen and Gordon are almost there; they both have particular blind spots where they seem to inevitably swing at certain pitches out of the strike zone and take certain pitches in the strike zone. Gordon is obviously still potentially correctable; Teahen might be past that point, although his versatility means his bat still plays.) Yet it's telling that you're not responsible for most of those guys being here.
Butler and Gordon are still your cornerstones, of course, but you still need another hitter or two that can legitimately drive the ball and get on base for the middle of the order. And then you need to fill out the lineup (and bench) with guys who don't throw away outs.
And, of course, I mean that both offensively and defensively. Dayton, I realize that defensive metrics are not nearly as well-developed as offensive metrics. If you're not on board with OBP (and it's clear you're really not, despite your protestations to the contrary, or you wouldn't be trading for guys like Jacobs and Betancourt), then it must be triply as difficult to place your faith in defensive metrics. But I gotta tell you, when virtually every metric agrees that someone's horrible afield, you have to listen. These guys are all trying to be scientific about this. There are differences in their methods, which is why some players look good in one person's method and poor in another; with those players, you need to rely on your scouting eye to sort out why the metrics differ from method to method, and then make your decision that way.
But when they agree that a player is simply a horrible fielder, as they do with Guillen and Betancourt, you have to pay attention to that. I cannot understand why you acquired Betancourt, Dayton. He doesn't hit, he doesn't get on base, and he's a lousy shortstop. Yes, he's better than Tony Pena, but any number of freely-available AAAA shortstops meet that qualification. You didn't need to give up two pitching prospects and take on what's left of that salary to replace Tony. (That said, if you'd only given up Cortes on the basis of simply being tired of his crap, that might have been justifiable.)
Lastly, the bullpen. Your first mistake, obviously, was giving up two perfectly good set-up men in the off-season, then rushing to replace them with a can of high-octane jet fuel. I wouldn't blame you so much for Farnsworth's performance, since the act of putting him in positions where he was highly likely to fail falls on your manager... except you apparently feel content to continue allowing your manager to mishandle the bullpen without calling him into your office and telling him to pull his head out of his backside. I am not here to tell you that Soria needs to be pitching multiple innings, as so many others do. I frankly don't care whether Soria only gets three outs four-five times a week. What I do care about is Soria standing out in the bullpen in the eighth inning while lesser pitchers desperately try to hold onto a lead with runners on base. He's your best reliever, and he should not be getting held in reserve so that he can come into the game with nobody on and nobody out simply because he can't get a save if he doesn't finish the game. If Hillman would just use him to get out of the eighth-inning jam, the odds of another reliever being able to safely navigate a non-jam situation are quite clearly better than the odds of winning the game after losing the lead in the eighth inning.
Don't get me wrong; your job is to put together the team, and Trey's job is to manage it. However, that doesn't change the fact that you're his boss. If he is continually making the same errors and steadfastly refusing to correct them, you tell me, Dayton -- who bears the responsibility for correcting it?
This is a small-market team, with small-market pressures. You're never going to sign an Albert Pujols (at least not until the team starts winning post-season series), and if you develop one the odds are great you'll lose him. You have to work on the margins, which means not throwing away basics... like outs, like the chance to preserve an eighth-inning lead, like letting a boat anchor play in the outfield because it might make him sulk. This team has to take chances, but they have to be rational chances.
But above all, you can't afford to make decisions which are clearly not going to solve anything. You signed Jacobs because you thought this team needed power. Well, it did need power, but more than that it needed baserunners after a season where on most nights the bottom five guys in the order couldn't find their way to first base with GPS. That has been this team's problem... well, forever, if we're being honest, but at least in the Brett Era we actually had some of those guys who hit .340 but didn't walk much.
The Royals currently have a .313 OBP. They are last in the league. They are also last in the league in runs scored. The Yankees lead the league in OBP, at .357. They also lead the league in runs scored. It's not a coincidence, Dayton. The same is not true of other stats. Boston's fourth in the league in runs scored, but they're below mean in batting average. Cleveland's fifth in the league in runs scored, but near the bottom in slugging. Only three teams in the league have hit fewer homeruns than the Angels, but they're second in the league in runs.
It's OBP, Dayton, and while walks are an indicator, it's not about the walks. It's about getting on base, period, especially with the core of our starting rotation being so adept at preventing other teams from scoring runs. I hope that someday, you'll actually understand that rather than just talking about it once in a while yet making moves which make it clear you don't comprehend it. I don't want you fired, Dayton. I don't want you to quit. I just want you to learn from the very clear mistakes you've made in the last nine months, tell us that you understand them, and move forward with a better process.
You know, before I'm so senile that I start having trouble remembering sitting in the stands on October 27, 1985.
15 recs |
38 comments
Comments
Wow... Outstanding
Very well said. If only he’d read this… or somebody would mail it to him. I don’t have much faith in that though.
I was 18 yrs old in 1985 and my Grape Malt Duck hit the ceiling when we scored in Game 6… LOL
That was a great party.
1977 & 1989 Royals - We shoulda won it all dammit
by Trey_has_no_pulse on Jul 24, 2009 6:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great.
I hate it when you see something like this, or write something like this, and you know there is no chance of the person actually reading it.
Bloomquist. God? Or just an illusion? You be the judge.
by focs on Jul 24, 2009 6:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe one of his two sabermetricians will, though
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
by cmkeller on Jul 24, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you think
They have enough time in the 2 hours of computer time they are alloted each day?
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Jul 24, 2009 7:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I know they get more than that, but they are typing up 2 year old scouting reports.
I hear that just entered the data from one scout on Francoeur from Atlanta. He seems to have a pretty swing and looks good standing out in the outfield.
Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.
by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Jul 24, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction
standing protecting himself in the outfield

by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Jul 24, 2009 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what was this person?
Carlos Guillen, the Latino Punto
by The_Fan on Jul 25, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You need to add, "Staying the Course" about 10 times randomly to keep his attention.
Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.
by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Jul 24, 2009 7:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great letter
But given Dayton’s public comments, I think his mind would prevent him from even considering reading it. If there is one hallmark of the Treyton Hillmoore Era, it’s that they do NOT take criticism. AT ALL. Notice I didn’t say “take criticism well.” They just don’t take it. Period. They don’t take criticism and they don’t have time to educate. They work on the process. That’s it and that’s all.
Can you even imagine what would happen if Dayton and Trey were running the show in New York? Or even Chicago?
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 24, 2009 7:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I can.
Trey would already have resigned, and Dayton would be on Baseball Tonight.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Jul 24, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great post.
I want to break it down NYRoyal style just to highlight all of the parts that should be rec’d.
He can get 4, NOT 5.
by Warden11 on Jul 25, 2009 12:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It would be an interesting discussion as to what constitutes a
successful team. What are the variables and differences between winning baseball teams and losing. I’d personally doubt this post comes anywhere close to reality, although I enjoyed reading it. Needs some work. i.e. that OBP is the difference between winners and losers probably dramatically over states the case for OBP. OBP is a strategy, but it’s only one strategy. You could make the same or a much stronger argument for basing player acquistion on batting average. High averages indicate ability. OBP can indicate a player without ability that merely is good at working the count.
by Coach Feb on Jul 25, 2009 12:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like something I might want to look at this afternoon.
Ideal would be quality average with high obp guys.
The Royals, however, seem to completely ignore OBP.
He can get 4, NOT 5.
by Warden11 on Jul 25, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Just one strategy?"
There are tons of studies on this, and I’m not an expert on statistics, so someone tell me if I’m using correlation in correctly….
But I just generated a list of every team season in OBP, AVG, and Runs from 1947-2008.
The correlation in that period beteween
runs and AVG: 0.73
runs and OBP: 0.78
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by devil_fingers on Jul 25, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A bit more
From 1970 to present:
Runs and AVG: .70
Runs and OBP: .77
From 1995 to present:
Runs and AVG: .78
Runs and OBP: .86
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Jul 25, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
d'oh
and by “present” i mean through 2008
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Jul 25, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey DF
Can you run correlation for Runs and OPS, and then do it for Runs and wOBA? I’m interested to see which correlates higher. My guess would be wOBA as it takes a higher weight of OBP than OPS.
by AxDxMx on Jul 28, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll do that sometime
I’m still a bit leery, since while I love stats, I suck at using them, and I’ve read that correlation in particular can be deceiving.
But I will do it. I’m sure that other people have done stuff like it before. Wait, actually…
Colin Wyers did a two-parter on Run Estimators at THT a little while back, and tested them with Correlation, Mean Average Error, and Root Mean Square Error. Colin’s very smart… I am… not…
It’s more technical — he’ snot dealing with AVG, OBP, and SLG, but he does talk about OPS vs. wOBA vs. BaseRuns vs. RC vs. EqA and other stuff. It’ for absolute runs — wOBA doesn’t “win” but it comes really close — and that’s to be expected, since BaseRuns is dynamic (but much harder to apply properly to individual players), and “house weights” is also pretty complicated. wOBa comes really close.
And, of course, they all blow away OPS, OPS+, and Runs Created.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Jul 28, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So basically, they all correlate to run scoring pretty evenly
Seems like a lot of work, for not much reward when OPS can do the job almost as well. I didn’t expect that. I expected that the correlation would be better on these formulas, otherwise, what’s the point?
by AxDxMx on Jul 28, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure about that
Some of them really undervalue the walk:
On average, based upon our matched pairs sample, during the Retro-era a walk was worth an additional .32 runs on average. Our robust linear weights measures, like wOBA and the “house” weights, match up very well here. Something like RC or OPS fares much more poorly here, with values of .22 and .25 for the walk respectively. Those measures are going to underrate our high-walk players and overrate our low-walk players.
Not that RC is the basis for VORP, BO’s “flagship” offensive stat, which thus undervalues walks and doubles. this has been known for a while, and I discuss it here.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Jul 29, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The important phrase to remember, however, as d_f notes
is that “Correlation does not imply causation”
by sterlingice on Jul 30, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm well aware of that fact
Though the closer the correlation gets to 1, the harder the time you would have refuting that.
by AxDxMx on Jul 31, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, but you're simply wrong.
The most egregious part of your comment is “OBP can indicate a player without ability that merely is good at working the count.”
First, there’s no such thing in the sense that you mean it; a “player without ability” would see about 80% strikes, and thus wouldn’t have much of a chance to work counts. But that’s minor; the assertion that there’s no ability involved IN working the count is mindboggling.
As to what constitutes a successful team… every single analysis of which I am aware has proven that OBP has the highest correlation to wins of any non-trivial offensive statistic. It’s entirely possible that perhaps “times reached on catcher interference” has a higher correlation, but (a) it doesn’t happen enough to be relevant even if it did and (b) that’s why I’m pretty sure nobody’s bothered to see what its correlation is in the first place.
Even teams who are successful “because of” their high batting averages (think Angels teams of recent vintage) have very good on-base percentages, precisely because of their high batting averages. They have tended to walk less than average, but their ability to hit for average has kept their OBP playable.
Again, it’s not about walks. It’s about getting on base. In that sense, a hit’s as good as a walk, now isn’t it?
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Jul 25, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i am also other than an expert on statistics although I rank as the least expert in
statistics on this whole board. Yet, i have been on a few athletic fields in my time and have probably watched twice as much baseball as most of you have been alive. Thus, purely intuitively I tend to favor BA as a measure of the true worth of offensive players. Yet, we have the devil finger’s stats above, which are interesting. but will hazzard a guess they are other than the final word.
We have the stat problem that high OBP generally, unless you are Adam Dunn, already indicates a higher than average BA. Thus, if you look at it that way, naturally if you add “average” to a high walk rate, you are going to score more runs. But, that begs Morse’s question—how do you select a player? BA or high OBP Warden already stated the ideal as high BA + OBP, but, if you have to choose—high OBP or high BA, which do you take (and why)?
by Coach Feb on Jul 25, 2009 1:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
we also have to ask about power
but OBP > BA. OPS is slighlty better, since it adds in the impact of power hitting, but it doesn’t do justice to OBP enough.
THere is a newer stat that is based on the linear weight of the run expectancy of each possible event of a plate appearance, called wOBA (wighted On Base Average). The creator explains it here. NYRoyal explains it for the readres of this board here.
Tom Tango, the guy who creates it, says that is can be approxiamted by doing ((1.75 times OBP) + SLG)/3
But in OBP vs. BA, I’ll take OBP, since BA usually relies heavily on balls in play, and thus luck, whereas walk rates are more consistent over time.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Jul 25, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, BA by itself is nigh unto useless, really.
Batting average is one of the least-repeatable metrics on a player’s offensive stat line; even Tony Gwynn had wild variations in his batting average from year-to-year. Certainly, Gwynn had the “ability to hit for average.” The catch is, you never knew whether he was going to hit .320 or .380. That’s thirty-six hits over 600 PA, or more to the point, it’s 1.3 games worth of outs. The reality is that a hitter’s BA is highly luck-dependent, which is why you now hear a lot about BABIP.
If I have to choose between a guy who hits .340 but never ever ever walks, and a guy who OBPs .340, I WILL take the guy who hits .340. That’s because their OBPs are identical, so you may as well give me the extra moves of runners from first to third or from second to the dugout.
But a guy who hits .280 and OBPs .340 vs. a guy who hits .260 and OBPs .360? I’ll take the second guy every single day of the week unless there’s a serious power differential at play as well. Why?
Over 600 plate appearances, the second guy fails to make an out 12 more times than the first guy, while the first guy moves potential runners an extra base 12 more times than the second guy. The key word there is potential, because of the 12 more hits that the first guy has, not all of those will come with men on base ahead of him. Multiple studies have shown that in terms of run expectancy the OBP guy comes out a hair ahead assuming equal SLG; if the BA guy’s SLG is higher, then depending on how much higher, he pulls ahead.
Of course, one other detail comes into play here; power guys are more likely to BE the OBP guy than the BA guy anyway. Adam Dunn is merely an extreme example; you can go back through Royals history and see who the team leaders in BB/PA have been and see for yourself. You’ll get names like Mayberry, Porter, Sweeney, and Brett, all of whom were guys who walked because they could hit.
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by jonfmorse on Jul 25, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Morse, stats are leading you astray. Overreliance perhaps.
“BA—one of the least repeatable metrics.”—huh? Take a wild stab at this that BA is the most consistent stat there is over most careers. Lifetime BA generally indicates about where the player will hit most years. How do I know? seen a lot of box scores. That also covers “BA is highly luck dependent”. Naaah. Luck evens out over time. Statistical probability, although I’d say there is more variation these days than in days of old—reason—these days players will let themselves get out of shape on occasion. In the old days they were all out of shape all the time..
The old (traditional, ancient, correct) way of looking at things(leave power out of it for this): There is a significant difference in hitting talent in these types of players:
:320 or above: superstar
:300-320 star
:280-300 very good hitter
:270-280: average, but tolerable
:269 and below—looking to replace
I decline high being impressed by high OPB of the :269 and below. Seen enough baseball to know this sort of hitter fails when the heat’s on. It’s the type of hitter a pitcher merely throws the ball down the middle and the below .270 guy will fail to make contact when it counts. Watch a few consecutive Adam Dunn videos from 2008 and before. You’ll see Dunn repeatedly strike out or hit a weak one to 2nd in crucial situations. Dunn rarely succeeded in the tapes I watched against the better pitchers. Probably get the same sort of thing if you watch Carlos Pena (Rays) over time. Notice he’s hitting about 7th in that lineup these days. smart move. might be a Royal soon.
The other side of the coin is that if you trade for a player with a high OBP but low BA, that is probably all you are going to get. Whereas, if you emphasize BA in your trades, you will have a player that can be coached up as high BA indicates natural talent/ low BA indicates otherwise.
by Coach Feb on Jul 26, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is "batting average" not a stat?
And how would you back up high AVG players being able to be “coached up?”
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by devil_fingers on Jul 26, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
I feel like I’ve just been lectured on how I’m an idiot for thinking the earth revolves around the sun, because it should be obvious to me that the sun revolves around the earth.
After all, anyone can see it moving across the sky, right?
Batting average is less predictable season-to-season than almost any other statistic. Any number of studies have been done on this issue which state the same thing, and anyone who continues to insist otherwise is committing the same error as a tobacco industry employee trying to claim that smoking doesn’t really cause cancer. And the reason batting average doesn’t remain consistent is the exact reason you’re rolling your eyes over: BABIP does NOT even out over the course of a season. It is the exact reason why Brian Bannister was so good in 2007 and so bad in 2008. It is the exact reason why Mike Aviles was so good in 2008, and was so bad in 2009 before packing it in for the year.
I don’t know how to explain this to you any other way. When a batter hits a ball between the foul lines and it doesn’t leave the park, whether it’s a hit or not is almost entirely dependent on the defense. There ARE hitters who have had the exceptional ability to hit the ball sort of where they want to hit it, don’t get me wrong on that. Gwynn was a master at it… and even he had wild vacillations in his BA from year to year. What you’re having a problem with here is very simple; a guy with a career BA around .330 IS a valuable hitter, regardless of whether he’s got power or not. We can quibble about HOW valuable a hitter he is, depending on his OBP and SLG; if you present me with a choice between a guy who hits .330/.350/.370 and a guy who hits .275/.400/.500, my first question to you will be “isn’t there some way I can get them both in there?” But I digress; my point here is that in order to have a career BA of .330, you’ve probably got to be hitting over .300 most years. Now, I don’t much care to have a guy who hits .300/.310/.330 on my roster. That’s what we call “Rey Sanchez.”
The big thing, though, is that no matter what the player’s batting average, a guy with a .420 OBP is better than a guy with a .320 OBP. Being on base 60 more times over the course of a full season is not something one can simply ignore. You don’t win games by getting hits. For that matter, you don’t win games by getting on base; you win games by scoring runs. But scoring runs requires getting on base. Functionally, it also requires getting hits, but getting hits is not a mandatory step in the process; it is merely a helpful one. But perhaps even more importantly, if you win games by scoring runs, then you win games by driving in runs, and this is where the entire anti-OBP argument falls flat on its face. Who would you rather have hitting in front of Barry Bonds? Three guys with .300/.310/.330, or three guys with .270/.360/.whocares? The answer to that question is obvious, because the latter results in 90 more baserunners waiting for Bonds to drown another baseball in McCovey Cove.
(This does bring up another nuance to the discussion which more reactionary people miss. You DO need guys who can drive in those runners in order for your offense to be truly effective, but I can guarantee you that all things being equal, a team full of guys with .350+ OBP is going to win lots of ballgames. Period. And since building such a team is actually possible, whereas in today’s game you sometimes can’t even build a team of nine guys who can hit .310…)
All of this, however, is mostly irrelevant to our larger point, because the Royals’ problem is not that they have a bunch of guys who hit .300 but don’t walk. In point of fact, the Royals don’t even have any .300 hitters in the first place, which makes your objections to my original post particularly (and, perhaps, poignantly) pointless. Indeed, if the Royals were trotting out nine guys who hit .300 and didn’t walk often, that would be an improvement… because they’d surely manage to walk enough to improve the Royals’ pathetic OBP anyway.
So, if your assertion is simply that a player’s career BA tells you something about them, I will actually agree with you, so long as (a) their career has been long enough to smooth out the edges enough for us to confidently say that’s their actual ability level and (b) their career BA is high enough to support a reasonable OBP anyway. That a player has a career .280 average doesn’t tell you jack diddly squat, being brutally honest. But .310? Okay, that tells us something.
Of course, there is one other little detail; you just posted that Reggie Jackson wasn’t tolerable, what with his .262 career average. Your entire argument essentially states that you’d rather have Juan Pierre. You see how silly that sounds now?
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by jonfmorse on Jul 27, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually...
If you want an accurate take on which of the two players you mentioned would be better…
You would have to take the higher BA player as having average distribution of major leauge hits, and the corresponding run values. And once I did that it comes out the the OPB would be slighty better (3% or so), which is actually almost a statistical dead heat (in your 16 at bat situation works out to about .1 runs over the season). Basically if you have a player that has a higher BA by the same amout of another player with the same OBP higher then the higher average guy, it doesn’t matter which one you have, because they are basically equally valuable if everything else about the two players was equal.
Where you missed the boat was that BA does not matter in the slightest on how valuable a player is. It’s determined by the total run value that the player gets. Once you entered OBP into the works, you basically destroyed your argument. BA has a lesser correlation to OBP on how much run value he has, but OPB is essentually worthless as a stat as well. OPS will at least get you in the ballpark because the problem with OBP and SLUG get mostly cancelled out in OPS, but it is not a linear weight. Arguing about OBP and BA is like comparing apples to oranges when you really need to be talking about pears.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Jul 27, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You fumbled a bit here.
Your argument sort of presupposes the guy with a higher OBP and lower BA loses enough bases to the high BA/lower OBP guy, but in practice that simply doesn’t happen — because guys who hit .270 with a .400 OBP are almost universally power hitters, whereas guys who hit .300 with a .330 OBP are almost universally not.
This space for rent.
by jonfmorse on Jul 28, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoops-and therefore clicked too soon. One thing I have noticed over the
years is I’m debating the role of the power player. the game has changed quite a bbit since the 1960s.
by Coach Feb on Jul 25, 2009 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Almost EVERYTHING has changed quite a bit since the '60s
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Jul 28, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe in the process
Just not the MLB part of it for the next two years. But we’ll be good soon, when the minor league part of the process turns to MLB.
Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.
by 306008 on Jul 27, 2009 3:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If we haven't traded them away
for other teams’ garbage.
And if we don’t give up too many more draft picks for the latest version of Mark Davis.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
by cmkeller on Jul 27, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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