The Case for firing Trey Hillman right now
Hola. There are several things that are blatantly obvious about the current Kansas City Royals. They're not hitting very well, They're not defending very well, and they don't care about their lack of hitting or defense.
Barring a miracle, this season is over and the best opportunity to win a decision in six years will be squandered because of the fact that the wrong man is managing this team. There is no rational argument for Trey Hillman short of admitting that he sucks or asking people to wait longer. I'm not going to suffer through 4 more years of bad baseball to see Trey manage Mitch Moustakas or to see if Dayton's magic bean collection pans out.
You can keep waiting for Trey Hillman to manage a winning team, and I'll chop my hand off and put it in an oaken bucket. In four years, I will have something and you will still be waiting.
Trey Hillman was the wrong pick to manage the Kansas City Royals. Bringing a manager with ZERO experience in Major League Baseball at ANY level was a mistake. The entireity of Hillman's experience was at the minor league level and Hillman never played an inning in the major leagues. It's the sort of mistake that gets general managers fired. But fortunately for Dayton Moore, he will keep his job until the parade on the plaza or when his can't-miss prospects miss.
But firing Trey Hillman is not going to make this team worse.
For one thing, Trey Hillman does not make consistent decisions and he makes a wide variety of idiotic decisions. We're not expecting perfection, but when you blow a decision in almost every loss, it's not bad luck. It's a trend. Bad managers will remain bad managers. If you surrounded Trey Hillman with the 1927 Yankees, he will still be a bad manager.
It's hard to pick an example of the most frequent Hillman mistake. His dartboard mentality with relievers. His punchless lineups and refusal to put hot hitters in the place to hit and demote cold hitters. The fact that he even allows Tony Pena Jr to bat. The fact that he allowed Tony Pena Jr to bat with a broken hand. The fact that he batted Mike Jacobs cleanup while in the middle of an epic slump. The fact that he batted Mike Jacobs cleanup against John Danks. The fact that he continues to put Jose Guillen in the middle of the batting order. The fact that he banishes Alberto Callaspo to the bottom of the batting order. The fact that he puts Willie Bloomquist in the 2 spot. The fact that he talked of protecting Gil Meche's arm two days after throwing him out for 121 pitches. The fact that he started Ross Gload for 40+ games in a row.
Anybody using the "wait until he has more options" excuse is an apologist for bad baseball. I can respect the idea of waiting out the year with Trey. But 2010 will be just as bad as 2009 if Trey Hillman is managing this team.
There is no accountability on this team. Part of that lays on the shoulders of Dayton Moore. Before Dayton Moore came to Kansas City, most people thought the Braves way involved winning baseball. But so far under Dayton, it involves Braves rejects, a barren farm system, refusing to release the worst hitter in Baseball History, and a bathtub full of hope. Hope and Hype have a lot in common. But as noted, Dayton's idiocy with free agents is not enough to make it a good idea to fire him. Yet.
You could lay the blame on Kevin Seitzer. Does ANYBODY know what this guy's hitting philosophy is? One of the talking heads on 610 talked of hitters getting worse when they did what they always did, instead of what Seitzer wanted to do. Which is assuming a lot, mainly assuming that "What Seitzer advocates makes hitters better". Hitting coaches are only useful for finding mistakes and suggesting alternatives. They can't hold the bat and swing it too. That being said, the results so far suggest that Kevin Seitzer sucks at his job. Which doesn't make him unique amongst the Royals coaching staff. You could probably fire the Windmill and Rusty without really making much of a difference. As long as your third base coach has good vision and doesn't have a crayon lodged in his brain, he'll usually do his job well. Firing the third base coach would not have a damn bit of impact on this team.
But there is a short-term alternative for this baseball team. We actually have a manager on this team with major league experience and a winning record in major league games. I don't know a lot about the overall results we'd get with a John Gibbons, but let's compare Hillman and Gibbons.
Hillman trying to correct a player has not worked at any level. Do you really think a bunch of guys who got to the majors are going to be patronized by a failed middle infielder who never made it to the show before 2008? What does the manager of minor league teams have to show them that they don't know. If the players treat a veteran manager like that, by all means, trade them. But when it's a clueless rookie manager trying to be Cliff Clavin, they're justified. And let's just say that when the dilemna involves this dispute, removing the clueless rookie manager first can help in figuring out which smiling candyasses and moody losers need to get the hell out of Kansas City.
John Gibbons was a first rounder, made the show, has the track record in the major leagues, and he has a winning record as a big league manager in the toughest division in baseball. Also, when players smart off to him, they tend to go somewhere else. Ask Frank Thomas. Ask Shea Hillenbrand. I'm encouraged by his record of standing up to primadonnas. I'd imagine that a Jose Guillen pulling a fit in front of John Gibbons would end in a different result than when he pulled a fit in front of Trey Hillman. Granted, in the time that John Gibbons has been in the Royals dugout, Jose Guillen has actually behaved himself.
I will not advocate John Gibbons as a permanent manager until I see his work for myself and until I see how he mixes with this team.This team has a bench of puzzle pieces that don't fit together, thanks to Dayton. This team has a few candyasses who need to get traded. This team needs to know that smiling is reserved for when good things happen, Laziness & Whining is a ticket out of town, and that playing hard is the only option.
It doesn't mean that I want Torquemada, I just want a manager who gives a crap if this team wins or loses. Trey Hillman doesn't care, this team doesn't care, and it'd be easy for me to not care and start talking about the Chiefs. But I care, because Baseball is the best sport in the world and I want my team to be the best team.
We've had enough of this bad baseball, of losing every night, of this team being the laughingstock of baseball. We've had enough of seeing the same damn press conference from Trey Hillman, mumbling through the story of how the night went wrong for us again. Showing the passion of a poetry reader on Nyquil. We've had enough of mistake after mistake and a manager who lost his team a long time ago. And for the love of all that is holy, keeping Trey Hillman isn't going to help this team. Keeping Trey Hillman is waterboarding this teams fans.
In the last 15 years, we've suffered a lot. We suffered the pains of going from the best owner in Baseball (a man who should be in the Hall of Fame) a man who cared about Kansas City to one of the worst owners in baseball who doesn't live here or care about this city.
Bob Boone was a bumbling butcher who presided over the end of the Royals dynasty of the 70s to the 1990s. He took this team to a new low. The day that he was fired was a happy day for this teams fans.
Tony Muser was a mumbling gunnery Sgt. wannabe who shredded more arms, took this team down to the pits, and managed to lose with one of the best offenses that we've ever seen. The day that he was fired was a happy day for this teams fans.
Tony Pena is the only manager in the last 15 years who had any sort of personality or drive. Pena's presence was probably the difference between a winning season and a losing season in 2003. But the team in 2003 was put together with duct tape, random couch fluff, and a lot of luck. When Allard Baird opted for bittle old men in free agency in 2004, that was all. Tony Pena has the honor of being the only manager since 1995 who quit prematurely.
I don't know what Allard Baird was drinking when he hired Buddy Bell, but i'm sure the can had Sherwin-Williams on the side. But Buddy Bell looks better every day we're stuck with Trey Hillman. I was on the side of firing him for a good year and a half solid until he left his job after 2007. Bell was a lousy manager. And when he quit, that was a happy day for this team's fans.
I forget if Trey Hillman was hired before we signed roid-user Jose Guillen. That's only important because the event that happened first was the first big mistake of Dayton Moore's tenure and the other event was the second big mistake of Dayton Moore's tenure.
But unlike Jose Guillen, you can undo the mistake of hiring Trey Hillman without a negative impact on this team's finances.
Once upon a time, we fired managers during seasons where the team was .500. We fired managers with winning records.
And now I don't think there's enough fans or mediots who are willing to call for the firing of Trey Hillman. T-shirts, posters, and websites would have sprung up in other cities. Sports radio wouldn't be filled with mealymouthed apologists.
The Kansas City Royals fanbase is the smartest fanbase in baseball. Without a doubt. They've seen winning baseball, and they don't tolerate losing.
End the Suffering.
We've had enough.
Trey must go.
Fire Trey Hillman.
2 recs |
58 comments
Comments
I'm considering joining the TPJ-inspired boycott too
where fans don’t spend money on this team until TPJ is off the 25 man roster.
So don’t worry about banning me from the ballpark, guys.
Still suffering from the greatest robbery of all time: The stealing of the 1994 AL Central title from the Royals
by BHWick on Jul 4, 2009 2:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No offense dude...
but (and Im not saying Hilldawg shouldn’t be fired). But when a blogger who has less experience than anyone involved with professional baseball says a manager should be fired because he has no major league experience its a little hypocritical. This major league roster is very poorly put together, and Im not sure who makes the decisions for who is up, and who is down, but one can only assume that it is GMDM’s job. And if that is the case, it is awfully hard to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
I’m really not trying to say that you are wrong in what you have said (though I didn’t read all of it), but I think you are placing the blame too much on Hillman. I completely agree that he mismanages the bullpen, but it is widely believed that the difference between a good lineup and a bad lineup is about .8 runs… And if that is the case, he might as well experiment because we have been losing by more than .8 runs per game.
I dont know if anything I’ve said (typed) has made sense, but I dont think its fair to put all of the blame on Hillman, his roster is fucking pathetic, and also I think the role of the manager is glorified… I don’t think an amazing roster of hall of fame players could be corrupted by a manager, but I also dont think a roster of pathetic miserable rejects is capable of scoring 7 runs, and again Im not saying that I dont agree with you, but really is there anything (aside from the bullpen use (which has obviously cost us runs if not wins) that any other manager could do?). Truth of the matter is, this roster is a sub .500 roster, and no matter what ANY manager could do, this roster does not deserve a playoff spot…
:Editors note… I started drinking shortly after the 2nd run was allowed by Greinke (I dont remember earned or not) so if this is an incoherent ramble, and makes no sense forgive me.
Nothing from Nothing leads to... Your 2009 Kansas City Royals
by averagegatsby on Jul 4, 2009 3:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
1) I don’t think it’s hypocritical at all to point out that Hillman’s lack of experience on the big league level in any capacity is a major minus and something which made his problems a lot worse.
2) The bench, on most nights, sucks. But the difference between a good manager and a crappy manager is making the most of what you have. Trey does not do that. He does not start one player on the 25 man roster ever. He starts the worst hitter in the history of modern baseball multiple times a week. He puts two guys in the middle of the order that are not hitting for power. There is some damn obsession with giving a manager all the tools and more before making a call. What about seeing what he does with what he has before going much farther. If you think his issues with lineup construction are bad now, Imagine how his decisions could be the difference between 82 and 80, or playoffs and staying home. Hillman is not a good manager. Not good at lineups. Not good with the pen. Not good at in-game strategic moves.
I’m not going to put all of the blame on Hillman. But it’s rare that all the people worthy of blame are removed in one instant. You have to start somewhere and that somewhere has to make a difference.
Are we forgetting that Trey started Ross Gload in 40+ games in a row? It’s not like his lineup skills went into the crapper after he got the Mmmbop Middle-infield Twins on the bench.
Part of the reason why the pro-Trey arguments seem to grate me is because they’re the exact same as the arguments people made for keeping Tony Muser in 2001 and 2002. Back in the good ol days when we were starting f’n Neifi Perez every day.
Tony Pena Jr makes Neifi Perez look like Barry Bonds
Enough is Enough - Fire Trey Hillman
by BHWick on Jul 4, 2009 3:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think Muser got a raw deal
When he was fired, I actually boycotted Walmart (then spelled Wal-Mart) for a month to protest. I wanted him to erase Whitey Herzog from the Royals wins record.
by jbrocato on Jul 9, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my personal take
i dont think hillman is a good manager
but hillman is not the issue
moore/glass is the issue
by royalsreview on Jul 4, 2009 3:32 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
And removing Hillman is more attainable than
removing Moore. If Moore is doing this same old crap in two years, then he should be toast.
Glass is getting too much crap for being cheap now, when it looks like Dayton is as trustworthy as Jennifer Capriati with money.
Enough is Enough - Fire Trey Hillman
by BHWick on Jul 4, 2009 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
on checking
I thought Capriati was involved in some stuff with credit cards.
Lenny Dykstra might be a better comparison.
Enough is Enough - Fire Trey Hillman
by BHWick on Jul 4, 2009 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Dykstra sells advice on buying stock options!
And he says his track record is great!
by AxDxMx on Jul 4, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
replacing Hillman won’t make the royals significantly better.
Moore is the one that needs to go.
You say it best with the this is the team Moore wanted line.
by wildthang on Jul 4, 2009 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose we could give Moore a chance though
I mean the Braves model for success was 3 Hall of Fame pitchers, a hall of fame batter, and one who was well on his way before a collapse.
Shouldn’t be that hard to assemble right?
by wildthang on Jul 4, 2009 4:12 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It could happen
I mean, would you bet against Moore signing both Smoltz and Glavine this offseason?
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jul 4, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh shit
hadn’t even crossed my mind, but, yea, that is a possibility isn’t it
BOOM! ROASTED!
by GoBabies!! on Jul 4, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that would be worth it
maybe talk Maddux out of retirement, too
by benfunke on Jul 6, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
using that logic
Moore shouldn’t go either.. after all, him leaving wouldn’t make the team significantly better
Enough is Enough - Fire Trey Hillman
by BHWick on Jul 4, 2009 4:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not over the last 70 games of the season
but if we canned Moore, and brought in a competent GM with a solid foundation in sabermetrics and statisical analysis, the team would most likely get better.
Replacing managers is almost always swapping generic manager A for generic manager B.
Hillman can’t hit or play defense.
by wildthang on Jul 4, 2009 4:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't say that too loudly
or else someone will claim that stats have failed since the only AL offense worse than KC is the Oakland A’s. Don’t ask what the stat is which mandates picking up over the hill players and putting them in the middle of the order. Billy has mastered that stat.
The fun thing is that if you go in that direction, you have to deal off a lot of Moore products. Just take a look at the BB:K ratios for the minor league hitters. Trey will be thrilled to know of our elite bunting corps in the minors.
But there is more of a clear verdict in on Trey than on Moore, and if you replace Moore in that fashion, you’re going to have to get a new manager sometime in between the 6th and 8th time that the OBP slugger is bunting into a double play (oh yeah, forgot that moment of genius from the Mustache)
Enough is Enough - Fire Trey Hillman
by BHWick on Jul 4, 2009 4:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree that Hillman should go
I just think that in terms of measurable impact, this team would improve more by replacing Moore than it would with Hillman.
They both need to go. Actually a lot of the people involved with the Royals need to go.
by wildthang on Jul 4, 2009 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, only 6 of the 7 top offenses in the AL are stat-friendly
They seem to be doing just fine understanding how to use stats with scouting.
by Gopherballs on Jul 4, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can change personality though, and the Royals need a leader
Hillman kinda seems like the loser of a group that tries to lead, but everyone else always wants to do something else, and so they do that, because no one really likes him, listens to him, or does what the loser wants.
by AxDxMx on Jul 4, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A good GM could make a significant difference over the next three months and offseason
Instead of playing mediocre veterans in a pointless quest for 75 wins, the team would be instantly better jettisoning the deadwood, trading the veterans with no future here for talent to help restock the upper minors, picking up interesting free (or nearly free) talent to find the next Carlos Pena, Nelson Cruz, Ryan Ludwick, Jack Cust, or Russell Branyan, and letting the younger guys play everyday to help with their development and your evaluation of their future with the team.
by Gopherballs on Jul 4, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was on the "fire trey" bandwagon
but am currently off of it. I honestly don’t know what we can expect him to do with this roster full of minor leaguers. It’s not his fault TPJ (and the host of crappy middle infielders) is on the team, in fact, I’m getting the idea that he’s decided that he’s going to keep using little Pena until Dayton has no choice but to get rid of TPJ. Hillman knows his job is on the line, he wants to win games but how is he supposed to do it with the cast of rejects that he has?
I still think he’s a poor manager and likely needs to be gone at the end of the season but John Gibbons is certainly not the solution. His main qualification is that he did indeed play in the big leagues (although very poorly). He made decisions just as dumb as Hillman when he was with Toronto.
Jim Leyland never played in the MLB, Jack McKeon never made it, Joe Maddon, nope, he never sniffed the big leagues either. Heck Jim Frey took the ‘80 Royals to the World Series and he was considered to be a below average manager (even took the Cubs to the playoffs in ’84). If you have good players you can look like a genius, if you have players like the current Royals, you can’t look anything but stupid. This one is all on DMGM, which means to save his ass in the short term, you know who will be gone after this season.
by trauty on Jul 4, 2009 3:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A few notes
Trey’s inconsistent decision making is a thing that stands out no matter the quality of the players on the roster. Keeping Meche out for 121, and Greinke for 82, claiming to be saving both of their arms, claiming that the bullpen was rested, when i’m pretty damned sure they were out there quite a bit.
And John Gibbons main qualification isn’t 2 seasons in the 1980s, it’s having a winning record with the Blue Jays in the AL East. Anyways, a half-season tryout seems reasonable. And we’ll know who else is available in October.
Oh yeah
Jim Leyland was an ML coach before becoming a manager
Joe Maddon was an ML coach before becoming a manager
Jack McKeon was an exception since he was the AAA manager for the Royals for years
That is not the same as being a minor league manager.
Enough is Enough - Fire Trey Hillman
by BHWick on Jul 4, 2009 4:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but
how many Japanese League titles did they win?? Pwned.
Trey san is a strategic genius.
I’m not sure John Gibbons wants a try out with this crew. They aren’t gonna have a winning record in the AL East, West, North or south. They might be able to win the Northern League.
:)
by trauty on Jul 4, 2009 4:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Managers get paid more than Bench coaches
any red blooded American capitalist would jump for the shot..
and i’d imagine that a series between the 3rd place team in the AL East and the winner of the Japan Series would be relatively close.
Trey did come a long way from learning about Japanese baseball from watching Mr. Baseball (not kidding) to exaggerating the level of Japanese baseball in relation to MLB.
But the Japan Series winner would kick our asses.
Enough is Enough - Fire Trey Hillman
by BHWick on Jul 4, 2009 4:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Canning Hillman now achieves nothing
No one is turning this roster around, and by firing him now you limit the choice of replacements that are available. By all means fire him at the end of the year, but even that will make marginal difference if the cast of players is the same.
Until there is a major overhaul of the roster, and just as importantly the philosophy behind its construction, anything else is just window dressing.
Frankly, I don’t care about the ins and out of every game any more. What happens in them is kind of irrelevant, because the roster that is being asked to play in them is flawed in so many ways. Fixing that problem, and the person who created it, should be way more of a priority than the manager.
by kcbottom9th on Jul 4, 2009 4:41 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Give Gibbons the rest of the year
Then they can interview Gibbons and whoever else for the job. I’m not saying give it to Gibbons, but we might as well see him first hand for the rest of the year, because we know what Trey brings.
by AxDxMx on Jul 4, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trey Hillman sucks.
But Dayton is the one that is really screwed here. He shot himself in the foot when he anointed Trey the “Chosen one”, the only manager he ever wanted to hire in his tenure with the Royals (paraphrasing). Trey Hillman is Dayton Moore’s Bobby Cox. How the hell is he going to fire the guy a year and a half in after making that kind of big time commitment? Either Dayton flings Trey under the bus in a desperate attempt to save his own job (doesn’t seem very Dayton like), or he grits his teeth, sits back and tries to ride out the shit storm.
Sure, Hillman is absolutely godawful at everything you would expect a manager to be competent at, but the only reason he even has the chance to flash this incompetence so often is the AA nature of the roster he has been given. Throw in his natural propensity to put guys in positions they should not be in / are unable to succeed in, and you have the perfect witches brew of suck. Unfortunately, I don’t think we’re going to see anything change this season. Maybe a trade or two, but a big shake up? No way. IN dayton’s eyes, this is his team, he has the guys he wanted, the problem is they are just hurt. Yep. Try again next year.
-
by slayor on Jul 4, 2009 5:15 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
"Trey Hillman is Dayton Moore's Bobby Cox"
perfect
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jul 4, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It really is perfect
John Schuerholz::Dayton Moore
as
Bobby Cox :: Trey Hillman
by AxDxMx on Jul 4, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
even better. rec'd
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jul 4, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Idiots this is my random rant
Most of you just see NOW. You forget yesterday or last off season or that Glass didn’t give Baird any money to spend. Don’t forget the Hunters and Furcals and Hudsons that just didn’t want to come to KC. This isn’t a Hillman or Moore problem. Our farm system has been void of talent for years and can’t be fixed overnight. Ross Gload and others played that much cuz there wasnt any one else. Now their is still only a few ML prospects from AA up. Moore has said we will not rush talent to the bigs just to get them here. They have to be ready. The older management ruined numerous players this way. Right now Maier is blowing his chance. How many of you experts wanted to see what he had the last couple of years? Lubanski and Costa both hurt since may. The next best SS in our system just got promoted to AA. Lisson is at AAA but looking like Bianchi is playing a lot better right now. Kila can only play 1B and DH. Guillen sucks because hes off the juice. Jacobs looks like a miss. Coco was decent until the shoulder tear. Not sure if Gordon is going to be anything and he WAS supposed to be a can’t miss by all who supposedly know. Not you idiots. This team is void of speed, defence and discipline. Pitching would be better if we had a 2b that could field a ground ball or an offence that would score more that 1 run a game. Discipline does come from the coaches. This shit takes time…This team is a better team than they are playing like now. I’m all for making some moves. Just not moves that are made for the sake of making moves. This team is not a Trey Hillman team. In japan he had a team that could play catch and run this team can’t……………..
by royalblue69 on Jul 4, 2009 8:19 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Interesting perspective
And you bring something to the table that many have forgotten.
A one scene short drama:
Phone rings.
Potential Free Agent who is a stud picks up.
Free Agent: “Hello?”
GMDM: “Hi there potential stud free agent. This is General Manager Dayton Moore of the Kansas C…..”
Click.
Repeat. Repeat.
Repeat.
Repeat.
Free Agent: “Hello?”
GMDM: “This is General Manager Dayton Moore of the Kansas City Royals. Would you consider meeting with us?”
Free Agent: “Um…. (long pause, Dayton looks at the phone to see if it’s not been hung up) … would you trade me at the deadline to a contender of my choice?”
GMDM: “Anything you want. Just come visit, sign, and let me at least sign someone. Thanks. I owe you big! Here’s $7 million for 2 years. Enough?”
Farnsworth: “Um….. make it $9….. and ok.”
That’s about it…. everyone hangs up. The guys who aren’t getting calls listen. It’s a patience thing. We can’t call for the farm if no one is one the farm… I know this sucks. I’m just as big of Royals fan as any of you. But I know that you have to build a program.
Has Trey made weird/dumb/idiotic decisions? Yes. Does he have much to work with? No. Is he learning the game at the MLB level? Yes. Is he getting better? Time will tell.
For now. Lay off. Get your heart broken. Put it back together, vent, and go back to cheering for our Royals…
Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.
by 306008 on Jul 4, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you know that because you are the FBI and you have Moore's phone wiretapped?
Give me a break. Sure, KC isn’t a #1 destination for players, but if a player were to hang up like that, I wouldn’t want him on the team anyways.
by AxDxMx on Jul 4, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RoyalBlue, I LOVE this post
It seems two of the major arguments being made are
a) He plays TPJ too often &
b) He bats Guillen/Jacobs in the middle of the order.
Well, let me say, replacing TPJ’s .100 avg w/ Hullett/TPJJ’s .200 avg would be a step up, but it isn’t exactly going tom 4th place to the Pennant race either.
And as for JoGui/Jacobs in the middle of the order, what would you have him do? I TOTALLY agree that it is worthless to have Jacobs in the lineup vs a lefty like Danks, but the Jacobs v. Lefty discussion aside, who would you have him hitting in the middle that isn’t there already? Luis Hernandez? MItch Maier? Callaspo is the only player that a real argument can be made for, since he has shown good doubles pop this season, but again, having JoGUi/Jacobs batting 7 & 8 w/ AC & ________ hitting 3 & 4 or 4 & 5 does NOT make this team any better from a W & L prospective IMO.
I said it earlier in the year that Trey is proving to be a manager that is more likely to cost the Royals a win as opposed to engineering a win through deft moves. I think that is still the case, but I think this is (possibly) partly due to the completely moronic way this roster has been hen-penned together with 3 SS clones that can’t hit, a multitude of players that can’t field, and a multitude of players that refuse to situational hit.
BOOM! ROASTED!
by GoBabies!! on Jul 4, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree
Whining about Hillman, while therapeutic, is completely useless. If Jesus Christ himself was manager and made every right more how many more games would we win?? He would still have to deal with Hernandez, TPJ, Guillen and every other misfit on the team. Who cares if Hillman was more consistent?? We would still be having a terrible season. No manager could possibly come close to making up for the deficiencies in our lineup. Hillman is not good but get off his case!!
by FallenAngel on Jul 4, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fun factoid:
Allard Baird was a completely terrible GM by all accounts. However, in his third season of taking over a team with a depleted farm system, the Royals finished over .500.
This is Moore’s third season as GM.
by Top Ramen on Jul 4, 2009 9:16 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Runs scored improved every year too I think
but they have decreased every year under Moore.
by AxDxMx on Jul 4, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Allard wasn't a completely terrible GM
He had a couple of HUGE flaws though
1) He couldn’t trade for shit
2) He dumped the plan in ’04 b/c he was blinded by the # 83
3) He rushed too many players through too many levels.
He did draft relatively good (Zack & Billy)
BOOM! ROASTED!
by GoBabies!! on Jul 4, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Alex
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. If Allard had the financial backing Moore has had, I think he would do as well as Moore has.
Maybe it is his own fault that he didn’t have the cash, who knows. But I honestly do not see all that much improvement between then and now, as unpopular an opinion as that may be.
by kcbottom9th on Jul 4, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True on AG
but I can’t give AB credit/blame for that pick. He took who EVERYONE else in the game would have taken with that pick, and who EVERYONE else said was ’can’t miss’. If he flames out, the blame doesn’t go on AB, it goes on AG.
The one area that I see vast improvement in the Royals, well 2 areas actually are.
Lower Minor Leagues – Due in large part to, as you say, the Glasses opening up the checkbook to sign the Mellvilles & the Nicaraguans (haven’t committed his name to memory yet) of the world
Rhetoric – GMDM came into town on a big white horse and sounded the part of the savior. And to this day, when you hear him speak (which has become fewer & farther between if anyone else has noticed) he still SOUNDS like he oozes confidence in the future.
BOOM! ROASTED!
by GoBabies!! on Jul 4, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Baird always would've failed
he didn’t know how to set up or run an organization – maybe in part because he’d only been a part of the Royals.
He didn’t know how to run the minors and (supposedly) had a tendency to micromanage every aspect of the organization, as opposed to hiring good people and letting them do their jobs.
However, I think if Glass had given Baird the same resources offered to Moore: Actual money for the draft, about $30 million in payroll, and Dan Glass staying hands off that Baird probably could’ve produced the same “level” of success we’re experiencing currently – a 75 -80 win team if everything breaks right.
by Top Ramen on Jul 4, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's hard to argue that Hillman only deserves a season and a half...
but I think Gibbons is the better choice for manager to finish up the season. Even if Gibbons can squeeze only a few more wins out of this roster, it’s worth it. As so many people have already posted on this site, the Royals, despite finishing with a better record, have actually been a worse team since HIllman became manager. I don’t know how it’s possible to invest more money in what looks like better players only to come out with worse stats. I don’t know why or whether it’s just Hillman, but the fact is that they are underperforming.
by rph on Jul 4, 2009 9:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty obvious by now that the players have no respect for the manager
JoePo documented this last year and it’s seriously doubtful that the situation has gotten better. Firing a manager isn’t a cure all but it can make a difference. The Rockies have played much better after their manager was replaced and same with the Blue Jays last year. And if getting rid of SABRTrey means also getting rid of his BFF Windmill Dave, sign me up.
by swing and a miss on Jul 4, 2009 11:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Firing Hillman now can't hurt much
because — help me out if I’m overlooking something that makes him valuable — there’s nothing he brings to the ballpark that would be missed. And it’s not as if his dismissal would be disruptive, because the team has absolutely nothing positive going right now to disrupt.
But it might not help, either. I agree that Gibbons isn’t a good choice. In Toronto he was pretty good at polarizing the clubhouse, and I’ll concede it might be fun if he got into a fight with Guillen or Farnsworth or somebody, but it isn’t going to help.
If the team is going to write it off as a lost year, they need to start talking about how they’re going to get back on track, and soon, to dispel the gloom that has settled in. Probably Moore needs to make a statement: this year hasn’t gone as planned, the quirks swarmed like bugs by Lake Erie, but we’ll get through this and here’s how etc. If he thinks Hillman can manage competently with a roster of competent players, he can give him a vote of confidence (and then change his mind and fire his ass in November). But it’s a bad idea at this stage to say and do nothing.
by 2X2L on Jul 4, 2009 11:07 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Gloom is a great word for it
There is just something about this year’s team that hasn’t felt right all year. I get the fact that they have holes, but as my post suggests, they are far underplaying their expected record, even with the injuries. i think the baserunning has a lot to do with it, but i also happen to think that it demonstrates that trey’s leadership leaves a lot to be desired.
i am going to do a follow up post on the past 4 years of royals WAR stats, and there may be a few nuggets in there that will surprise people.
Kansas City Royals - rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic since 1994.
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Jul 4, 2009 12:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Firing a manager isn't going to make the team win.
Getting better players is going to make the team win.
Moore is a bigger problem than the manager.
The manager is not good.
John Gibbons will not be good either.
"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"
by NHZ on Jul 4, 2009 1:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The main question we need to ask ourselves
who would be funnier over the rest of the season?
On on hand, Trey Hillman gives us timeless classics. You know the ones.
On the other hand, there’s always the possibility of a Gibbons/Guillen/Farnsworth blowout.
It’s a tough choice.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jul 4, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bringing back Tony Pena has some value too
just imagine the fun antics, and him having to tell his son that he’s on the bench again
Enough is Enough - Fire Trey Hillman
by BHWick on Jul 4, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MIght as well throw Tony Muser in the mix
Sounds like a great reality, show, actually.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jul 4, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
although TPS has probably already been booked for "MILF Island"
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jul 4, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the end
I wouldn’t be surprised if Trey winds up being the fall guy for the terrible roster that’s been constructed over the past couple of years.
That’s not to say that Trey has been good. He’s been a below average manager is most aspects of the game, and has had to do far too much learning on the job.* In addition, there were multiple reports that he lost the clubhouse last year. Once something like that happens, you don’t really come back from that.
* Seriously, how many managers would need a few weeks to learn that sending Ross Gload and John Buck on steals at every opportunity is a terrible idea.
by Top Ramen on Jul 4, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is probably less than charitable. But, was it Mr. S who wrote "truth is truth". My top ten fireable offenses, in reverse order. None of
these have anything to do with wins and losses, of course.
1. Leading league in incomprehensible lineups. How about DJ, Callapso, Teahan, Butler, Guillen. Duh.
2. Intangibles(lack of): respect, teaching ability, inconsistent fuzz head devoid of common sense. Leading his generation in low sports IQ.
3. Base running: lack of concentration, coaching, priority.
4. Two strike out artists batting back to back in the middle of the line up. Guaranteed fail.
5. Good managers “find” players, make players, and know how to use players. Never happens around here. (see Brett Tomko)
6. Plays players into the ground, lack of appropriate rest: see Aviles.
7. Destroying team defense, chemistry by playing Guillen in OF.
7. Both fails to recognize the relationship between injury prevention/performance and high pitch counts, and for good measure, brags about it.
8. Game management grade: horrendous.
9. Use of the bullpen—failure to establish roles, get a young long reliever, keep bull pen sharp by actually using them, continuously selecting the “wrong” pitcher for the wrong situation,. etc. etc. etc. ridiculously stubborn and "un"innovative.
10. Playing players injured. (this one stands in a class by itself.)
My question would be, how can GMDM possibly allow this to continue.
by Coach Feb on Jul 4, 2009 11:26 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
10. Playing players injured. (this one stands in a class by itself.)
Why is this Hillman’s fault exclusively?
"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"
by NHZ on Jul 5, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's in charge,
and all the ramifications of that. I’d think a competent manager e.g. would have noticed a tick in Coco Crisp’s swing way before it became a torn labrum and taken appropriate diagnostic and treatment action. The specific facts are unknown, of course, but, seems to me there’s been enough of this in 2009 that we’d see some explanations coming if indeed the approach to these various injuries has been other than negligence or reckless disregard.
by Coach Feb on Jul 5, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like that you have 2 no. 7s!
Hillman is so great that his Top 10 has 11.
Fuck This Team. Period.
The General Theory of Royaltivity
by kabrink on Jul 5, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Article stinks because ...
Just one example of how the author is an idiot …
Callaspo batted 2nd and it was a flop. He hits a lot more consistently when he bats 8th. When he was in the 2 spot he struggled a lot. Trey tried it to prove the stupid fans wrong and he did.
And the author seems to expect that you just shift your lineup everyday as people get hits or don’t get hits. That’s not how you manage a major league team.
Terry Francona did NOT shift David Ortiz to the bottom of the lineup for a long time. He understands people bat better with a consistent lineup.
There are more examples, but it would take too much time. What a s***** article.
by losroyals on Jul 5, 2009 9:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What changes about being at the plate when you bat 2nd or 8th?
Nothing. You face the same pitcher. The only difference is in the mind. If these players are so mentally fragile, that they can’t handle being moved in the batting order, they all need to be fired immediately. How about this explanation? Callaspo was red hot (he was 2nd in the league in doubles to Evan Longoria, did you really think that would last?), Trey moved him up, Callaspo wasn’t about to continue his red hot streak and suffered a regression to the mean, then he was moved back down, and the slump ended around the same time. Pretty much coincidences based on how Trey puts a lineup together. What’s surprising is how long he’s stuck with Jacobs even though the guy is producing jack squat.
by AxDxMx on Jul 6, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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