Hijack of a GobbleForCyYoung discussion, Volume Two -- Why is the AL considered "tougher" than the NL? (or in other words, why is the NL considered weaker than the AL?)

by BillyMojo on Jul 8, 2009 5:22 PM EDT

It was a long comment so I decided to continue my signature character and make this a fanpost on its own and remove it from the context of the original discussion. What is it that makes the NL a weaker league overall? Is it really?

Like many of our discussions we're probably oversimplifying this issue.

Or overcomplicating it. Look at us, we’ve got everyday players on our roster who hit with equal numbers (or worse) than NL pitchers. Maybe we ought to look around at the other teams in the AL and see if it’s true from team to team. I think unless everyone in the order is above .250/.300/.300 then there’s one spot in the order even in the AL that is comparable to the 9-hole hitter in the NL (pitcher).

The style of play is obviously different and we all know that, but in effect the NL managers have a more versatile “DH” concept in their application of situational offensive substitutions.

So I don’t know what the reason would be for the statistical superiority of American League pitching — or even if that’s what we’re looking at. Is is just team vs. team comparison? Or the recent historical dominance in the All-Star Game? Or just overall won-loss records in interleague play?

Is it market based? Chicago has both the White Sox and the Cubs. New York has Mets and Yankees. Los Angeles has Dodgers and effectively the Angels too. San Francisco has Giants and effectively A’s. (holding up three fingers) Out of the thirty… THIRTY major league organizations, what percentage of each league occupies major markets? Are there more ‘major market’ teams in the AL that have more $$ to spend?

I think there are too many questions to be answered to simply say that AL is tougher than NL because AL has the DH.

The NL can’t carry players like that to insert in their lineup during interleague

I’m in agreement with that. I do think though that they carry players like that and insert them in games regularly in offensive substitutions, but more often those guys that get inserted are more versatile types that get contact-hits and bunts rather than just long-balls.

I would even go so far as to have Thome on my 25-man roster in the NL for $12M and I’d probably have a defensive negative at 1B, but would that come out in the wash with the offensive positive? So if he gets tired and has to have an extra off-day per week, my league minimum utility guy can give him that day off, but if that guy comes to the plate in the 7th or 8th and I’m down by a run with someone on base no matter how many outs, my “Thome” is coming to the plate.

Lord, I was born a rambling man, and here I go again.

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Comments

maybe, and partly

because the AL and convincingly kicked the crap out of the NL in interleague for years. We’re talking Larry Beinfest trading with Dayton Moore here.

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by Matt Klaassen on Jul 8, 2009 5:26 PM EDT reply actions

in short

it’s sort of like asking why a 90-win team is considered to be superior to a 70-win team

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by Matt Klaassen on Jul 8, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions

make that

“AL has convincingly kicked the crap out of the NL "

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by Matt Klaassen on Jul 8, 2009 5:27 PM EDT reply actions

there are two different discussions

1. the reasons for AL dominance
2. whether or not it exists

I’d say the cause is a combination of randomness, maybe a slight variation in market sizes, and the fact that the Yankees-Red Sox have raised the bar for everyone else in the AL.

here’s some of the numbers on interleague this year, from Jayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyson stark:

• With one interleague game left (a makeup of a Cubs-White Sox rainout), the AL is 137-114 this year. And that makes FIVE STRAIGHT YEARS in which the AL has been more than 20 games over .500 in interleague play. Sense a trend there anywhere?

• The AL is an incredible 77 games over .500 over those five seasons (713-536). That .571 winning percentage would compute to a 93-win season over 162 games — for the entire league.

• Not one AL division had a losing record against the NL — for the FOURTH straight season. The AL East went 52-38. The AL Central went 46-43. And the AL West went 39-35. The last time any AL division had a losing record in interleague play was 2005, when the AL East went 42-48. But you can chalk that one up to Tampa Bay going 3-15.

• Meanwhile, the only NL division that even went .500 in interleague play this year was the NL West (39-39). The East was 35-49. The Central was 38-42.

• Finally, in head-to-head games, the NL East got squashed by the AL East 49-35. The only NL East team that had a winning record against AL East teams was Florida (10-8). And the Phillies and Mets went a combined 11-22. That, of course, is a gruesome .333 winning percentage. They’re 65-49 against NL teams. That’s a .570 winning percentage. Think they’re happy to see interleague play end, or what?

by Freneau on Jul 8, 2009 5:52 PM EDT reply actions

the win loss record is alot closer in nl parks

you cant just chalk it up to home field its more because that 4-15 million $ bat onlt gets to pinch hit

by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 8, 2009 6:30 PM EDT reply actions

on average all teams play better at home

so if AL teams are still beating a nl teams overall in NL parks, that’s just more evidence of the AL’s superiority

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by Matt Klaassen on Jul 8, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Hidden reasoning

There’s a hidden reasoning why statheads like us continuously parade the AL and how it has dominated the NL, aside from the fact that we’re Royals fans…..it pertains to our distaste for small-ball and the acceptance of outs…both of which follow the idea of pitchers batting.

It is my belief that the AL will continuously beat the NL because of pitchers’ batting, abundance of competent to good to great DHs to the way teams are currently built to market bias. C’mon….Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Indians (briefly), Tigers….. Is it any wonder that in the market bias era (synonymous with the post-strike era), the AL has thoroughly dominated?

Get treated. Royally.

by Royals Nation on Jul 8, 2009 7:28 PM EDT reply actions

its a better brand of baseball...

you can’t build a 83 win team every year and wait til its your turn to get lucky (well, outside the AL Central that is)

by Freneau on Jul 8, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions

I think we might be conflating "market imbalance" with the actual imbalance

maybe it’s not “fair,” but whatever the cause, I think it’s abudandlty clear the the AL is the superior league.

Yes, the big markets help. But it doesn’t hurt that not teams in the NL are currently run as well as the Red Sox or the Rays. The Brewers might be getting up there, actually. The Marlins FO is impressive, but the run an entire payroll on less than Meche + Guillen’s salary, etc.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

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by Matt Klaassen on Jul 8, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Hold the phone.

Are the Mets not in a big market?

The Dodgers?

If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showforum=129

by Warden11 on Jul 8, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions

sorry, now I'm the one being unclear

they are “big market” (i.e. big income) teams, if not on the payroll level of Bosotn and New York.

However, they are nowhere near as well run as TBA or BOS, or, frankly, even the Yankees. Milwaukee is run much better.

In other words, the AL has the advantage of big market teams that are also run well.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 8, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

All jokes aside

Atlanta is still a decent franchise (although they’ve fallen behind in the FO from what they once were), but they don’t have Billionaire Ted’s wallet anymore.

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Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 8, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions

as usual, I'm talking out of my ass

feel free to put me in my place

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 8, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions

nah, it's all good

I just wanted lots of further commentary on the subject

Christ, you don't need a quadrophonic Blaupunkt! What you need is a curveball! In the show, everyone can hit heat.

by BillyMojo on Jul 9, 2009 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions

Exactly.

In other words, the AL has the advantage of big market teams that are also run well.

If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showforum=129

by Warden11 on Jul 9, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

I think that's what I was looking for

it makes more sense to me than just the DH logic.

Christ, you don't need a quadrophonic Blaupunkt! What you need is a curveball! In the show, everyone can hit heat.

by BillyMojo on Jul 9, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions

The DH logic and the extra cash allocated to a DH isn't the entire story

The total payroll is important, especially in luring top of the rotation pitchers.

Not sure how you can ever call the Yankees a well run organization. It’s nice that they spend tons of money on players and in revenue sharing, but if you have 1.5x – 15x as much money to spend as other organizations is absolutely pathetic if you don’t win a WS atleast every 3-5 years.

Sorry that’s the truth

by GobbleforCyoung on Jul 10, 2009 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions

yeah no shit.

I don’t have any idea exactly how much more money the Yankees have than the Royals; in a quantifiable measure. But damn if they’ve got ten times the revenue available to spend dollar for dollar