Kansas City Royals' season goes from good to horrible - ESPN
ESPN's Jerry Crasnick on the Royals
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Oh dear god
Moore and manager Trey Hillman, both of whom are signed through 2010, have endured their share of scrutiny. But the Glass family is apparently still on board, and the latest rumor in baseball circles is that David Glass is contemplating a contract extension for Moore.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Aug 25, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Moore might need a bath too
When super delayed gratification meets with underachieving veteran they laugh at the Royals, just a hypothesis though
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Aug 25, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
"I'm not going to make excuses"
“but it’s been broken here for a long time. We all knew the challenges we faced when we came here to Kansas City. We have a very small margin for error.”
ugh. Honestly, I have one offseason assignment for Dayton Moore: Learn what goes into advanced defensive metrics.
Maybe if he does that he’ll learn that OBP is the most important offensive stat and that it’s a talent and not a skill.
And that players don't peak from 28-34
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by Matt Klaassen on Aug 25, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
How come teams were winning years ago without defensive metrics?
Just wondering….
Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.
probably b/c nobody had them...
they were on a pretty level playing field. Now, they’re out there for everyone to use. And everyone is using them but us. This is akin to refusing to let your players lift weights after the rest of baseball had figured out that there were immense benefits to doing so.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Aug 25, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
well the Mets aren't using them either
and look how awesome they’re doing!
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by Matt Klaassen on Aug 25, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought the most telling thing...
was when another AL exec said something like “we dont know the dynamic from with” and something about if Glass forced Moore’s hand on bad moves…
I still have hope, I think Hosmer and Moustacos will rebound, I just hope GMDM starts drafting more College players if he really wants to win now.
Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures
they'll be drafting college hitters this year.
It’ll all come together in two years, and you’ll all be praising the guy… humans are such emotional creatures…
Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.
Contract extension
Is not surprising, and I’m not all that offended. I’m disillusioned with Moore due to his overvaluing major league experience over talent, his overvaluing tools over results when evaluating major league talent, and his overpaying (both in money and years) for marginal talent that can be matched for nothing (i.e. Julio Lugo’s .800+ OPS since joining the Cardinals for literally nothing).
But:
1) I realize that he was starting with almost nothing and that, even though he’s now only doing what a major league organization should be doing in the draft and internationally (actually, he’s setting records in the draft on money spent, so that’s a little above and beyond what he should be doing), it’s a vast upgrade in approach over what we had before, and it was always going to take at least 5 years for that approach to begin to impact the big league team.
2) I can only hope that he has learned a little humility this year, and will strongly reconsider his approach to advanced statistical analysis. It’s not just luck that “guys in their mom’s basements” turned out to be accurate on things he missed on, aka Jacobs, Farnsworth, etc.—some part of him has to acknowledge this. I don’t trust the process, but part of me has to believe (if for nothing else than my own sanity) that I can trust that Moore is a reasonable man who is capable of learning (hey, even Hillman learned that you can have a 2-inning save!).
3) We lose next-to-nothing over the next two years by having Moore et al in charge. The hole is too big and no one can change that. Every non-descript free agent we can’t sign next year is one less contract that won’t hinder the team in 2011, when we are free of Guillen and Farnsworth. There is no meaningful trade value on this team other than Greinke, Soria, and Butler, and no Royals fan I know seriously wants to trade these guys either, so there’s no real lost opportunities on the trade market. It’s less “trusting the process” than “riding the storm out,” but there’s so little to be lost waiting for the bulk of the talent in the low minors to get to major league ready that it’s grudgingly acceptable to wait and see if Moore can deliver on the developing major league talent from within.
If you look closely, it really says "CentralChamps2012."
by CentralChamps2009 on Aug 25, 2009 6:09 PM EDT reply actions
Wrong
The non-descript free agents are exactly the ones we can and will sign.
Setting a record on money spent in the draft isn’t necessarily good. Moore set a record on spending at the MLB level for the Royals this year and look what it got us! I agree it can’t hurt, but when your MLB talent evaluators are that bad, do we really trust what’s coming through the minor league system?
We lose a lot by leaving Moore in charge. We lose 2 years of rebuilding by a competent GM. How many more times can we pick up a Josh Anderson/Ryan Freel/Joey Gathright/Yuniefi before this team is sunk for another 4-5 years? The Yuni acquisition is already an albatross for 3 more years right? In short, when the model franchise in your brain is the 2005 Mariners, you’ve got a few screws loose.
Well
If someone comes in now, the only way the new “rebuilding” would happen is 1) fire sale on the assets (Greinke, Soria, Butler and maybe Meche—no one else has any impact value) or 2) doing what Moore is doing—throw money at the draft and international signings and wait it out hoping that the development. That’s it. Wishing/yelling/shouting at Glass to spend $100M+ a year is not going to make it happen, nor is calling for him to sell the team going to make that happen. Firing a GM every three years when they had to start with crap is not going to entice anyone credible to come to KC—what “competent” person would possibly want to come to work for Glass knowing they had so little time to show results?
I think Mellinger’s recent post is on target—Moore tried to force something this year by trying to piece together enough “tools” players to try to steal a division title in a weak year. We would have been far better served with the same approach taken the last two years—pursue one FA thought to be an impact player (he was one outta two), look for undervalued talent and roster squeezes (RamRam comes to mind), plug in what little AAA talent you had to see if it could contribute (Kila and Rosa) and pursue modest gains instead of getting greedy. That’s a process that may not have been flashy, but may have avoided the problems we now have. Moore does get the blame for 2009—hopefully he will learn the necessary lessons.
If you look closely, it really says "CentralChamps2012."
by CentralChamps2009 on Aug 25, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions
what legit 'tools' players did he bring in?
Bloomy’s slightly above average speed? Jacobs slightly above average power? Crisps above average defense? Farnsworth’s slightly above average fastball velo? He didnt even acquire any toolsy guys. He just signed shitty guys.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Aug 25, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't say they were "legit tools"
But, in his scouting-oriented mind, these were tools:
Coco for his defense
Jacobs for his power
Farnsworth for his fastball
Bloomers—okay, grit is not a tool, and his defensive flexibility is a myth, but he needed someone to replace Ross Gload as the “inappropriately overused and overvalued bench guy”
Cruz is exempt, because nobody thought that was a bad sign—it just turned out badly.
He looked at the positive tool that each guy had and did not factor in their negatives (i.e. their lack of an actual record of recent production). It also matched up with his “nobody’s gonna learn how to be a major leaguer in KC” rant from last August, which I think explains the lack of rookie appearances this year as much as anything. This was a terrible approach—and I’m not making excuses for it—but it does not match his approach from the first two season, and, since he’s gonna be here anyway, I hope he learns from it.
If you look closely, it really says "CentralChamps2012."
by CentralChamps2009 on Aug 26, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem is that standing pat was preferable to this
If he thought he was improving the team, that to me is a fireable offense. There were plenty of us that knew in the offseason this would kill us. Just take a look at the bullpen. They’ve cost the Royals 20 games this year.
yes...every move was questionable at best, save cruz.
cruz blew up….and i dont think anyone blames that on dayton…but the rest were just terrible.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Aug 26, 2009 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Last September I thought the same thing—let’s use 2009 to finally make decisions on Shealy, Kila, Davies, Callaspo and Buck and see if last year’s core could make it to .500. Moore got greedy without understanding how to get greedy correctly. He got out in front of the market and made deals he didn’t have to make. He messed up. It was a train wreck.
But the real goal should never have been “Let’s try to see if we can sneak in a win the division.” (the publicly stated goal is always to contend for the title—I get that). The goal should have been to continue the progress to respectability. He took what should have been an attempt to field a .500 team and set it back because he didn’t know how to build a division champ in one year. Is it a fireable offense? Who else could have built a division winner in one offseason? Only if 2009 should have been playoff years can you say it was a fireable offense. But it shouldn’t have been a playoff year anyway. What happens this offseason will tell us a lot more about Moore’s ability (including his ability to learn from mistakes) than last season’s did. Because I have no real choice, I’m willing to wait.
Okay, I think I’m done trying to defend the indefensible.
If you look closely, it really says "CentralChamps2012."
by CentralChamps2009 on Aug 26, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he should lose his job because the team failed to contend in 2009. Beyond that, if, as some have said, he had to deal with a difficult ownership directive — field a team with a chance to contend for a playoff spot in the year of The New K — I’m even sympathetic, because that directive is inconsistent with the longer-term drafting and development philosophy that Moore had previously established.
But, two red flags stand out for me in his performance: 1) In carrying out his mission for 2009, whatever it was, he demonstrated skills for player evaluation, roster construction, and asset management that are ( and I’m trying to avoid charged language here so bear with me) not promising of future success. He gave up cheap guys under team control who had good value and replaced them with expensive guys with less value etc. etc. 2) For this collection of puzzling moves — and the questions about them were first posed not when the team tanked but when he made them — he keeps saying in so many words that he has had it right all along, that the criticisms can be disregarded, that everyone whose calls he takes says the same. We all want him to learn from his mistakes, but recognizing them is a necessary step; up until now he has remained on the justification and reassurance stump, and this has been a PR disaster if nothing else.
I don’t want to say he needs to go. Let’s see some signs of growth this offseason, please. He could be Churchill after Gallipoli, I guess.
by 2X2L on Aug 26, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed and agreed
That’s why my original comment pointed out my disillusionment with his major league player evaluation—he absolutely MUST learn from this season’s debacle and act accordingly this offseason.
If you look closely, it really says "CentralChamps2012."
by CentralChamps2009 on Aug 26, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
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