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Dumb Arguments against Zack Greinke’s Cy Young Case and Why They’re All Wrong

1. He doesn't have enough wins.

Obviously, the Royals have the worst record in the American League, and Greinke personally possesses the worst individual run support in the AL as calculated by total runs scored in all starts.  The bullpen has blown four games in which he's left the game in line for the win.  The Yankees bullpen has not blown ANY of CC Sabathia's wins.  Absolutely no one in the AL, pitcher or hitter, gives his team a better objective chance to win as monitored by WPA.

WPA (win percentage added):

Greinke 5.30, Verlander 4.25, Hernandez 3.53, Sabathia 2.52, Halladay 1.73

WPA's a little nebulous to me, so here's a breakdown by start of how well each starter kept his team in the game by starts (5+ runs = bad, 0-2 runs = good).

Starts allowing 5+ runs:

Greinke 3, Halladay 6, Verlander 7. Hernandez 7, Sabathia 8

Starts allowing 0-2 runs:

Greinke 21, Hernandez 19, Verlander 15, Sabathia 15, Halladay 14

Wins lost due to blown saves:

Greinke 4, Hernandez 3, Verlander 2, Halladay 1, Sabathia 0

Run support/9 IP:

Greinke 4.71, Hernandez 5.73, Halladay 6.14, Verlander 6.21, Sabathia: 7.80

Being more than a full run behind the next guy in run support with more wins lost to blown saves than anyone is like having to run two extra miles in the marathon more than everyone else in the competition.

2. His W/L % isn't very good.

In addition to receiving the worst run support in the AL, Greinke is also extremely unlucky.  He has left eight games trailing, and the Royals were not able to take him off the hook in any of them.  In contrast, Felix Hernandez, despite pitching for the team that has scored the least runs in the league, has left twelve games trailing and been taken off the hook on seven occasions, including two in which he got the win.  Zack's also the only pitcher in the majors who has more than one outing where he gave up one run in seven or more innings and lost.  On top of all that in his 30th start, he received a lead in the first inning for the first time all year. 

Leads in the first inning:

Greinke 1, Hernandez 4, Sabathia 5, Verlander 5, Halladay 6

Baseball Prospectus's LUCK index measures the difference between expected W-L (calculated from pitcher performance) to actual W-L record:

Zack Greinke LUCK: -4.08, Team W-L: 59-87

Roy Halladay LUCK: 0.43, Team W-L: 66-80

Felix Hernandez LUCK: 2.99, Team W-L: 76-71

Justin Verlander LUCK: 3.25, Team W-L: 78-68

CC Sabathia LUCK: 6.07, Team W-L: 94-53

Hey, isn't it funny that luck correlates directly to team performance? 

No decision breakdowns by games left ahead (A), tied (T), or behind (B):

Greinke: 3 A, 5 T, 0 B, ERA: 1.95

Hernandez: 2 A, 3 T, 5 B, ERA: 2.15

Verlander: 2 A, 2 T, 3 B, ERA: 4.63

Halladay: 1 A, 3T, 1 B, ERA: 2.73

Sabathia: 0 A, 4 T, 3 B, ERA: 3.71

All those other guys have been bailed out by their teams when they've left the game behind, and they all have fewer games blown by the bullpen.  Greinke has no such luxuries.

Star-divide

3. His Cy campaign was built on his hot start and he's just been coasting since.

Greinke's pre ASG ERA: 2.12 (best in AL)

Greinke's post ASG ERA: 2.17 (best in AL)

He posted a 2.54 ERA in the month of July and was rewarded with an 0-3 record.  So far in September: 0.45 ERA and one win in three starts.  Thanks, Royals lack of offense!

4. Felix Hernandez gives up fewer hits and extra base hits, he must be better.

Defense matters.  Slow defenders simply can't get to as many balls as faster ones, the same pitcher playing for a minus defense is going to give up more hits (and have singles turned into doubles, doubles into triples) than if he were playing in front of a plus defense. 

Seattle's team UZR: +72.5

Kansas City's team UZR: -42.4

BA/OBP/SLG/OPS:

Hernandez: .228/.289/.319/.608

Greinke: .232/.274/.345/.619

Sabathia: .234/.290/.366/.656

Verlander: 240/.295/.373/.668

Halladay: .260/.287/.392/.678

Let's put this in context with BABIP, batting average on balls in play, which based on average luck and defense, would be around .300, with higher averages indicating worse luck/defense:

BABIP:

Verlander .325, Halladay .318, Greinke .314, Hernandez .291, Sabathia .282

tRA (expected runs allowed per nine innings in a defense/park neutral environment based on trajectory of batted balls) is interesting too, as it magnifies the effect of defensive differences:

Greinke 2.28, Hernandez 3.24, Verlander 3.25, Halladay 3.29, Sabathia 3.89

And despite the minus defense, Greinke still allows the fewest walks plus hits per inning pitched (WHIP):

Greinke 1.06, Sabathia 1.13, Halladay 1.13, Hernandez 1.15, Verlander 1.17

5. He doesn't play in the AL East, where there is "quality competition."

Neither have the last five AL Cy Young winners, and they still got their awards.  Also, merely playing in the AL East doesn't mean you necessarily face the toughest opponents; individual lineups faced can be quantified by Baseball Prospectus's "Opponent Quality OPS."

2008 Cliff Lee: AL Central, opponent quality OPS: .735

2007 CC Sabathia: AL Central, opponent quality OPS: .738

2006 Johan Santana: AL Central, opponent quality OPS: .774

2005 Bartolo Colon: AL West, opponent quality OPS: .747

2004 Johan Santana: AL Central, opponent quality OPS: .752

2009 Opponent quality OPS:

Halladay 0.776, Verlander 0.762, Hernandez 0.758, Greinke 0.753, Sabathia 0.751

The only person who has any right to complain here is Roy Halladay.  Wins leader CC Sabathia's opponent quality OPS is actually the lowest of the bunch, despite pitching in the AL East.  And Greinke doesn't get to face the Royals, who are easy prey for elite pitchers (or anyone really) looking to lower their ERA. 

Let's look at how Verlander, Sabathia, Hernandez, Halladay, and Josh Beckett (who was a Cy contender until he imploded late August) fared against the Royals in 2009.  The cumulative record of those five pitchers vs. KC: 6-1, 1.23 ERA.

But wait, what about the Mariners, aren't they even worse at scoring runs than the Royals?  Same guys minus Felix and plus Zack, vs. Seattle: 3-4, 3.46 ERA

What about Toronto?  Haven't they played almost as badly as the Royals since mid-May?  Combined JV, CS, FH, JB, and ZG stats vs. Toronto: 2-3, 7.93 ERA

While sample sizes may be small in these individual cases, Cliff Lee was notably aided in his Cy Young conquest of 2008 by compiling a 5-0 record vs. KC.

6. Justin Verlander has more wins, strikeouts (!), and plays on a winning team.

Despite all the strikeouts he piles up, Verlander has ten games in which he failed to achieve a game score of at least 50 (an average start) even though game score awards points for strikeouts, Greinke only has four such below-average starts.   

Number of below-average game score starts:

Greinke 4, Hernandez 7, Sabathia 8, Halladay 8, Verlander 10

7. He pitches in a low-pressure environment because his team is terrible.

It's zero percent Greinke's fault that his team sucks.  The Royals are last in the AL in bullpen ERA, save conversion percentage, defensive range, second to last in runs scored, batting average, home runs, and fielding percentage.  He's single-handedly saved them from having the worst starting pitching, too.  The offense scores few runs, so he pitches close games all the time knowing he better go deep in the game because the bullpen is completely unreliable.  Psychologically, it would be far easier to let up and make more mistakes when you play for a bad team like this, and still nobody has been more consistent all year. Plus, being the Cy Young frontrunner all year has to be at least a little bit of pressure, especially coming down the stretch in this last month under national media scrutiny, and Zack's responded by posting a 0.73 ERA over his last five outings.  And when the Royals were still above .500 and contending, he posted an 8-1 record and 0.84 ERA over his first ten starts. 

8. He can't win because there's simply no historical precedent for a candidate with his type of W/L numbers to win, no matter how deserving he may be.

It's 2009.  More information than ever is available to any discerning individual with access to the internet (see all statistics compiled above).  A serious journalist would investigate and research all facets before casting their vote, and anyone who has taken more than a cursory look at the numbers has seen that Greinke's been the most dominant and consistent pitcher on the season.  Baseball columnists across the nation at multiple major media outlets who have done the research have advocated his candidacy, so why not local BBWAA chapter members?  Do they really want to be known as being so backwards that they only see W-L records?  Besides, Greinke is the story of the year among AL pitchers, what with all the profiling on his perfect start and comeback from social anxiety disorder.  The latest storyline on him is how this great young pitcher has basically been screwed over by his horrible team and is persevering despite the trials known as the Kansas City Royals' awful offense, defense, and bullpen.  Writers LOVE a good story, they love them even more than wins because they live for good stories, and Zack Greinke's is epic.

Comment 45 comments  |  26 recs  | 

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Very thorough, rec'd

Can you rebut this one also, just so we have a complete repository for Sabermetric groupthinkers on these questions? — if the manager of the defending AL champions doesn’t think he’s good enough to start the All-Star game, how can he be a candidate for the Cy Young Award?

by 2X2L on Sep 18, 2009 11:01 AM EDT reply actions  

because that guy is an idiot. :)

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Sep 18, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’ll work.

Of course, there’s also this little nugget I just looked up, which is that in the last 15 seasons the Cy Young Award winner and the starter for the AL in the All-Star game were the same person only four times, in 1995 (R. Johnson), 1999 (P. Martinez), 2001 (R. Clemens), and 2008 (C. Lee).

by 2X2L on Sep 18, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice job

but really, at this point, there isn’t a point. If anyone still needs convincing that Zack shouldn’t get the Cy, they never will be.

I think we need to be ratcheting up the Zack for MVP campaign.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 18, 2009 11:30 AM EDT reply actions  

It's true

The Royals are a .500 team when he pitches.

When he doesn’t pitch that means they play .381 baseball. Greinke lifts the probability 119 points all by himself. If he were to do that on the Yankees, he’d likely have 25 wins already and the Yankees would have around 110 wins right now (pure speculation I refuse to back up!).

by AxDxMx on Sep 18, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

How much do billboards cost in NYC?

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Sep 18, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm a Blue Jays fans..

I agree with this very well-done article.

I would be happy if Zack wins the Cy award who plays in a very poor offensive team (no offense, the BJ are terrible this year too) and should very well deserve the award..
but this is My opinion, Halladay was in the DL and miss about 3-4 starts and the team was sill hot and so was he, but after the he came back the team was slowly decending and was in a big slump offensively so he couldn’t pick up win.

I would be happy if the Award goes to anybody who deserve it such as Zack, Halladay, Hernandez, Verlandez but not CC, he plays on a team who scores an average of 8 Runs per games and if the Ace of that team doesn’t not get 20 wins, your not ace. period.

by elpikiman on Sep 18, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions  

CC deserved it last year

Too bad about that he played in both leagues thing.

by AxDxMx on Sep 18, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

i know the Royals' defense is bad, but

that difference in UZR vs. Seattle is astounding!

"The life of a (Royals) fan must be lived forward but can only be understood backward" -- Kierkegaard (more or less)

by benfunke on Sep 18, 2009 1:08 PM EDT reply actions  

What do recent "surprise" teams 2009 M's, 2009 Rangers, and 2008 Rays have in common?

Team UZR

2008 SEA -20.9 runs
2009 SEA +72.5 runs (best in MLB)

2008 TEX -51.7 runs (worst in MLB)
2009 TEX +39.7 runs

2007 TBA -57.7 runs (worst in MLB)
2008 TBA +74.2 runs (best in MLB)

As a relatively cheap and easily acquirable commodity, defense can be a great equalizer.

by Gopherballs on Sep 18, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seattle has 17 more wins than the Royals

The difference in UZR is roughly 115. I’m not sure you can do this, but if 10 UZR = 1 Win, that’s 11.5 Defensive wins and 5.5 pitching/bullpen wins, because the offenses are both completely inept.

by AxDxMx on Sep 18, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Tigers fall into this category too

2008 DET -39.1 (last place)
2009 DET 39.9 (first place)

The Royals defense has actually improved moderately behind Zack since about two months ago. His O-xO (outs minus expected outs, StatCorner) was -21 at its worst and -15 right now. See what happens when there’s no Jose Guillen in the outfield?

by swing and a miss on Sep 18, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

See what happens when there’s no Jose Guillen in the outfield?

But he's got a cannon!

I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Sep 18, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its almost like there is a correlation

Between understanding defensive metrics and putting out a good defensive ballclub.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 18, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

only if you demand instant gratification

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 18, 2009 3:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

as for low pressure environments, how about

knowing your team is going to put up a ton of runs, a la CC in NY?

"The life of a (Royals) fan must be lived forward but can only be understood backward" -- Kierkegaard (more or less)

by benfunke on Sep 18, 2009 1:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Great Post, rec'd

If only more people would read this and understand the significance, than there would be no other candidate. None! No way, no how.

His type of season comes around once every 5-10 years, it is amazing.

Zack for Cy, and if not it would be a complete travesty.

Sponor of the Will Ebner Physical Therapy Center for Players Who've Been Hit By Will Ebner and Want to Try to Stop the Ringing. Or WEPTCPWBHBWEWTSR for short.

by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Sep 18, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Amazing.

Can one of us join every other blog on here and post this and see what kind of reaction we’d get?

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Sep 18, 2009 3:25 PM EDT reply actions  

i would guess near universal agreement

Seriously, I haven’t reas a single blog suggesting anyone else lately. Even Olney agrees. Of course, no telling wyat the BBBBWWWWAAAAAAA will do as a body.

Like I said, let’s go all in. MVP!

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 18, 2009 3:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

even JoePo admits that you may be right about that!

I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Sep 18, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I even see Yankee and Blue Jay fans

saying “my guy’s awesome, but Greinke deserves it”.

This space for rent.

by jonfmorse on Sep 18, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

very awesome

spread the word

If you watch Rambo backwards, it's Sylvester Stallone healing people with his magic bullet vacuum.

by ratherfantastic on Sep 18, 2009 4:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Remaining starts

If Zack puts on a typical Zack performance against the Red Sox next week, I think the Royals should delay his next start one game so that he can face the Yankees in New York. I think he needs good showings against both those clubs to really lock down the Cy Young award. Due to the line drive off the arm, it’d probably be smarter to give him an extra day’s rest before his next start, but I think they should keep him in line for the start against the Twins so he could make up for a less than stellar start against Boston, if that happens. That, and the fact that I’m going to the game on Tuesday night, so yeah, he should definitely start on Tuesday…

by HisownZone on Sep 18, 2009 4:09 PM EDT reply actions  

on the other hand

despite the higher profile, facing the best offense in baseball in a hitters park risks a shelling even for the best of pitchers like Zack

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Sep 18, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

New Yankee stadium

Could go a long way to evening out his very low HR/FB rate.

For all his brilliance, when he does get hit they often go in the air. Which could be nasty in NY.

by kcbottom9th on Sep 18, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Zack is okay to start Tuesday

it’ll be like he has 4.5 days rest since yesterday was a day game. I’m sure the Royals would prefer that he pitch on Sunday for the last game of the year at the K due to attendance reasons. If he were to hypothetically beat the Red Sox and Yankees back to back, however, that would pretty much sew up the award for him. Tough task though.

by swing and a miss on Sep 18, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Greinke has this thing locked up, and I believe he does at this point,

then why throw him at NYY and BOS? The shellacking he could take in NY just isn’t worth it, and could actually COST him the CYA.

by AxDxMx on Sep 18, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he gets shellacked by the Yankees he doesn't deserve the award.

Nobody should win an award in sports by avoiding the best competition.

Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.

by Rev. Slappy on Sep 19, 2009 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

We’re loooking at you, CC.

by 2X2L on Sep 19, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

But at this point in the season, do you actively go out of your way to test how good you are?

You protect the lead at this point, there’s no need to do any more, as he’s already shown how good he is.

by AxDxMx on Sep 19, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Zack would personally enjoy the challenge because he's Zack

and says things like he wishes he could pitch with bugs on his face like Joba Chamberlain did in the 2007 ALDS just to see if he could get through it. I’m sure he’d be exctied by the prospect of a high-risk, high-reward outing at NYS. And he has the ability to adjust his game to get more ground balls if he wants to, for instance, he gets a fairly large number of GDP balls relative to his actual GB/FB ratio.

But I think if he’s healthy the Royals owe it to their fans (and their own pocketbooks) to have him pitch the last game at the K. Aces of non-playoff teams are supposed to close out the season at home to give hope for the next year and give the fans a last chance to appreciate him for the year.

by swing and a miss on Sep 19, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I agree. Greinke loves to compete.

Being afraid of putting him against the best offenses in baseball is a total pussy move. If he deserves the Cy Young award he should be able to beat the best offenses. If he can’t then he doesn’t deserve the award.

Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.

by Rev. Slappy on Sep 19, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's nothing here about being a pussy

When you have the game won, why give the other guys a chance? He’s got the field lapped at this point. I think Greinke could be great there, he is the best, but the way home runs fly out of the new Yankee Stadium, it gives me pause. If he wants it, he can do what he wants. I just think that it would be silly to force the matchup for some perceived value he would gain from it, when about 75% of the national media says that Greinke is a lock. That’s why it can only hurt him, he gains nothing from it. It’s like in golf, when a player is leading the tournament, you see a conservative strategy employed to keep the player out of trouble, so he keeps grinding out pars at the end. To pull out driver and keep bombing it only threatens bogey or worse and losing the tourney. Why go there?

by AxDxMx on Sep 20, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm with all y'all

Zack rules. The ESPN highlights of his pitching that I’ve seen are just outstanding. I don’t think I’ve seen a better pitcher over one season than Zack this year since Pedro Martinez in about 1999.

Too bad those dopes on the Dayton Daily Douchebag or whoever gets to vote on this (isn’t it the BBWAA?) wouldn’t know a meaningful statistic if it bit them on the ass.

It's pronounced Poo-ZHOLS in Catalan.

by Juancho on Sep 18, 2009 5:22 PM EDT reply actions  

If he doesn't win...

… I pretty much won’t do anything. But it would be a severe blemish on the BBWAA — assuming there’s any blank spots left upon which there can be blemishes.

by happydrifter on Sep 18, 2009 6:32 PM EDT reply actions  

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