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How we can win in 2010

There has been much doom and gloom around here about the prospects of a winning season next year.  For the most part I can agree with that sentiment.  However, while slaving away at my job I have found myself daydreaming a lot lately.  What would it take for us to compete next season?  The purpose of this post is not to be another one of those "lets trade for/sign this guy" type of things.  I have been thinking about this thing for several weeks now and I have come up with some interesting ideas.  I will break down the team by position pointing out Who is in and out and what the results might be.

Star-divide

Off season Moves:

1.  The first and most obvious move to make is either trade Jose Guillen or release him.  It is doubtful that we will find anyone foolish enough to take him on at the dollar amount that he is still owed.  Therefore a move where we eat a majority of the salary and get back even lower tier prospect is a win for the Royals.  Even if a trade cannot be executed Guillen must be off this roster if this team is going to compete next season.  This really is a simple case of addition by subtraction.

2. The next move may be a bit of a shocker to some: Trade Joakim Soria to the Rays for B.J. Upton (or to another team that has a good center fielder and needs a closer, the Phillies and Shane Victorino come to mind).  The reason I chose to target Upton however is that he is still cheap and under control, has butted heads with Maddon in the past, and with Carl Crawford having an option year this year the Rays cannot give Upton the raise he desires.  With top outfield prospects (thanks kcfan4ever64) on the way and dire need for help in the bullpen this move makes almost too much sense not to happen.  We shall see I suppose.

3. DO NOT exercise the option on Miguel Olivo.  This year's power surge cannot be expected next year.  If anything I fear it might make him worse next season.  Can you imagine if Olivo started swinging for the fences more next year?  He might end up with a Mark Reynolds-esque k-rate.  If we walk on him after this season he will most likely be a type-A free agent.  I would take a compensatory first rounder next year for Miguel Olivo.  I think any of us would.

4. Trade Mark Teahen for a bullpen arm.  This arm should preferably be left handed and not blow, but we cannot ask too much. 

5.  Resign John Buck.  John Buck is what John Buck is.  There is something to be said for his familiarity with the pitching staff, and a platoon of Buck and Pena at catcher would be passable.

6. Sign a decent starting pitcher in the free agent market.  There are some decent names out there, but nothing that we can expect to blow us away.  These signings would be more for depth than anything else.

7. Walk away on Mike Jacobs (see Jose Guillen), and give Kila a shot.  All the kid does is get on base, which is an alien concept to most of the players on this team.

8. Walk on all the bullpen arms except Farnsworth, Cruz, and the September call ups (excluding Yabuta of course).  I mean do I really need to explain this one.  We all know they signed two year deals or they would be gone too.

Starting Pitching:

Here is my anticipated rotation (injuries notwithstanding):

  1. RHP Zack Greinke (Duh)
  2. RHP Gil Meche (if his arm is still attached)
  3. RHP Brian Bannister (ditto with Meche)
  4. RHP Robinson Tejeda (lets see how he does out of the windup)
  5. RHP Kyle Davies (as a #5 why not?)

The glaring weakness of next years team is a complete lack of depth at starter at the major league level.  GMDM must sign some guys on the cheap (maybe Justin Duchscherer, or Doug Davis?) or we will be subjected to the Bruce Chen's of the world once again.

Bullpen:

With the departure of Soria I have moved Hochevar to the closer role.  He is a ground ball pitcher, and I wonder what his velocity could touch if he only had to pitch one inning a night?  This is probably the biggest stretch of my whole plan, but I think that the pen is the ultimate destination for Luke.

  1. CP RHP Luke Hochevar
  2. SU RHP Juan Cruz (hopefully this year was all because you were hurt)
  3. SU LHP Whoever was acquired for Mark Teahen
  4. MR RHP Disco Hayes
  5. MR RHP Carlos Rosa
  6. MR RHP Kyle Farnsworth
  7. LR LHP Dusty Hughes

Other candidates: Victor Marte, Lenny DiNardo, Julio Pimentel, TPJ, unnamed free agents and non roster invitees.

The bullpen will be the most fluid part of next years team I feel.  If Hochevar can settle into the closers role, I really like him there.  The rest of the pieces will just have to be moved in and out as performence dictates.  That is the only way to manage a bullpen.

Outfield:

With the addition of the speed of B.J. Upton we might very well have one of the best defensive outfields in all of the major leagues. 

  1. CF B.J. Upton
  2. LF David Dejesus
  3. RF Mitch Maier

Others in the mix: Josh Anderson, Tim Smith

This starting outfield would save our starting pitchers a ton of runs.  I also like the offensive production that it would provide.  Upton carried the Rays in the playoffs a year ago, when he is healthy I think he is a top ten outfielder.  I chose Parraz over Anderson because he can actually hit.  Who knows if he will get a shot though.

Infield:

Next year is a big year for several players on our infield.  Its probably going to be a make or break season for Alex Gordon, Billy Butler will have a ton of pressure on him to repeat his performence of this season, Alberto Callaspo seems to be hitting his prime, and Yuniesky Betancourt probably has until the All Star break to prove that he belongs on this team.

  • C Brayan Pena
  • 1B Billy Butler
  • 2B Alberto Callaspo
  • SS Yuniesky Betancourt
  • 3B Alex Gordon
  • DH Kila Ka'aihue

If the infield performs next season could be a good one for Royals fans.  If Betancourt goes all Tony Pena Jr. on us expect a Jeff Bianchi sighting by the All Star Break.

 Bench:

  • INF/OUT Willie Bloomquist
  • C John Buck
  • INF Mike Aviles/Luis Hernandez
  • OUT Jordan Parraz

Who knows if anyone of these players will be on the team next season other than Bloomquist, but this is the group that I would like to see.  I discussed Bucks value earlier, and Bllomquist is a super sub.  If Aviles can come back and be a good utility man and hit like he used to he would be invaluable.  If he is not ready for the start of the year Hernandez would not be a bad option in my opinion.  I like Parraz over Anderson on the bench because he can really hit.  He would be much more valuable as a pinch hitter late in a game than Anderson is.

Summary:

It is my opinion that the team above could compete in a weak AL Central next season.  2011 would still be the real target date for contention, but the team above could easily go .500 next season.  The biggest concerns for this team will be the starting pitching depth, and the production from the left side of the infield.  My prediction is that this team goes 82-80 and finishes third in the AL Central and things are looking very bright for 2001.  What do you all think?

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Soria for Upton would certainly be a fascinating trade

but I would be absolutely 100% stunned if Moore traded him

by royalsreview on Sep 23, 2009 12:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Upton is the right idea

and should be one the guys discussed in any upcoming CF article. But in addition to Moore’s reluctance to trade Soria, the Rays franchise has four or five guys that it would likely look to trade first before moving Upton (who will only be in his first year of arbitration).

by Gopherballs on Sep 23, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really like that trade idea, seeing as how Upton is blocking a big prospect in TB

You lost me with Hochevar as closer though. Carlos Rosa would likely be able to fill that role.

by AxDxMx on Sep 23, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Upton is not really blocking Jennings

The Rays used a Gabe Gross/Gabe Kapler platoon for most of the year in RF, so Upton or Jennings could immediately slide to RF. Zobrist also played some RF, but he fits better at 2B, where Iwamura is a nice player with a relatively cheap option but not someone who would keep Jennings in the minors. Crawford (who makes more and is one year from free agency) is much more likely to get moved.

by Gopherballs on Sep 23, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Upton had a very down year though

Iwamura is pretty good at 2nd, Zobrist has to fit somewhere, as I’d imagine Brignac plays SS next year. One of the 2 will be moved, Crawford or Upton. Depends on if they think 1 year of Crawford is worth more than Upton (if he’s declining).

by AxDxMx on Sep 23, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

they'll try to move Bartlett, I think

awesome year, and he’s a legit 3+ WAR player, but he’s also going to be 30. Move Brignac to SS. Zobrist plays 2B (or RF if they want to stick with Iwamura).

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

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by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, the Rays needs to move salary more than anything

Crawford makes $10m next year, as does Pena (whose a free agent after that). Burrell makes $9m (and also a free agent after that). Bartlett is due for a huge raise in his second year of arbitration (and a free agent after 2011). Iwamura would make $4m+ (and then likely become a free agent). They are going to look to trade the expensive, short-term guys first, and are smart enough to trade guys at their peak value (like Crawford and Bartlett). They still might trade Upton if they can get a Delmon Young return, but they do not need to trade him.

by Gopherballs on Sep 23, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you can tell I'm getting back into academia

self-footnoting!

Mhy evaluation of Bartlett here

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No self-spellchecking?
Mhy evaluation of Bartlett here

Waiting for April.

by DC Royal on Sep 23, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

no

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't the Rays

already say they weren’t picking up the option on Iwamura? I think I read that somewhere (or if they didn’t say it, that is the speculation I read)

BOOM! ROASTED!

by GoBabies!! on Sep 23, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like Upton and I'm for trading Soria

But that doesn’t strike me as a fair deal straight up, maybe I’m biased for the Royals.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 23, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do not understand all the dislike for Guillen

When healthy, he drove in 97 runs last year. That’s one of the best totals by a recent Royal.

Also, Buck has yet to hit .250 in a season. The sooner he is gone, the sooner we can move on from the Beltran trade.

by jbrocato on Sep 23, 2009 12:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

People dislike Guillen because he's not any good.

I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Sep 23, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hope this is sarcasm

of which I’m simply too tired to grasp the subtlety. I mean, you just said Guillen doesn’t suck because he gets RBI, and Buck sucks because he has a bad batting average…

This space for rent.

by jonfmorse on Sep 23, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No sarcasm here.

Granted, Guillen has not been a $12 million player, but he has been useful when healthy, which unfortunately has not been that often.

I see no chance of someone like Maier approaching 20 HRs and 97 RBIs.

by jbrocato on Sep 23, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perhaps

But those aren’t exactly the two most important metrics in baseball. If Maier can produce a much higher OBA (still a big IF in my book) and play much better defense (shouldn’t be too hard), he can come pretty close in value, if not surpassing Guillen.

Also, there’s little reason to think Guillen will be a 20 HR 97 RBI player again.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 23, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

in any case

even in his “good” 2008, he was still barely worth the minimum. Bringing Emil Brown back would have been a much better investment. Think about that.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

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by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But if the Royals release Guillen

That is zero production for $12 million. Worse yet, a team could sign him for league minimum and get 20 HRs in return for the Royals money.

Releasing Guillen would be the dumbest thing the Royals could do.

by jbrocato on Sep 23, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would take that gamble.

I don’t think that it is any coincidence that this years team has played better since he was shut down for the season. That guy is a cancer.

Jamie freakin Wright, nuff said.

by Gantz9 on Sep 23, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Guillen wasn't a horrible hitter in 2008

Yes a sub .300 OBP is pathetic, but he had a better slugging % then everyone’s golden child Alex Gordon.

It’s not the RBI or the homeruns, the 42 doubles were a good thing.

I’m for giving him a shot at DH and if he can’t repeat his 2008 performance get rid of him after a couple of months (it takes him a few months to warm up) and insert Kila and DFA Guillen immiediately

by GobbleforCyoung on Sep 24, 2009 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the Royals got 0 production in 2008

and much worse than 0 production in 2009

at this point, using a roster spot for Jose GUillen is one of the worst things they could do

other than trading actual prospects for Yuniesky Betancourt or extending Dayton Moore, of course.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

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by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still like the Betancourt trade.

Perhaps it should be considered that the Twins tend to overachieve because they bring in high-character players. It strikes me as odd to see Guillen maligned, yet Cortes has practically been canonized. If Guillen and Cortes are equal as cancers, at least Guillen has proven himself to be a decent run producer when healthy.

by jbrocato on Sep 23, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cortes is a kid in the minors

We don’t know what he’ll be like in three years, or if he’ll ever make the majors at all. Guillen meanwhile is a known bad apple who has no productive skills.

by awolfson on Sep 23, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think many have said what I have said

I was all for Cortes getting traded, just not for absolute crap. Worse than crap, Betancourt is a financial obligation that sucks.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 24, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't really get into the nebulous "cancer' category

I’m talkingt strictly ability and value to the team.

The Royals would have been better off cutting Cortes and bringing back Donny Murphy for the minimum than trading for Betancourt at all. Seriously. He’s worse than Angel Berroa every was. Oh, and he’s not making the minimum.

This leaves aside reports that the Mariners would have done the deal for just Saito. Which still would have been bending the Royals over.

Buying into the Betancourt trade: this is what happens when the local media spends a few years lining up to give handjobs to one of the worst GMs in baseball.

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by devil_fingers on Sep 25, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I vote for coincidence on the Guillen issue.

I’d say the Royals improvement has more to do with strong performances by Callaspo and Butler, encouraging signs that Gordon is slowly progressing, the September 2008 form of Davies, and the emergence of Tejeda as a starter.

Guillen did not have a bad 2008. It wasn’t a $12 million season, but I sure don’t want the Royals paying him $12 million to drive in 97 runs somewhere else next year.

by jbrocato on Sep 23, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he drives in 97 runs next year

That can only mean global warming has kicked in and we’re now playing 320 games a year.

by awolfson on Sep 23, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I used to think like you.

What if I told you that the 97 runs he drove was solely as a function of how many runners were on base in front of him. RBI% measures how many runs you drive in minus homers (obviously you drive yourself in so subtract 1), divided by total baserunners. Guillen had 438 baserunners and drove in 97, that’s 17.58%, which is actually a respectable percentage. DeJesus lead the league in this last year at 21.48% If DDJ batted cleanup with those same numbers and had Guillen’s opportunities he would have driven in 106 RBIs with just 12 homers (which is wishful thinking as DDJ was probably driven in by Guillen more than a few times). Point is, that Guillen’s homers weren’t all that valuable, DDJ would have had more production in the same circumstances. Also, that DDJ’s 73 RBIs were low because he was only presented with 284 baserunners while Guillen had 154 more opportunities. So if Guillen were to have more base runners, he would have hit 100. If he’d have been in DDJ’s position, he wouldn’t have even hit 70. It’s just a matter of who’s on.

http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/RBIPCT.py?StartDate=03%2F01%2F2008&EndDate=10%2F16%2F2008&SortField=1.0*%28OnRBI.RBI-OnRBI.HRs%29%2FOnRBI.RunnersOn&SortDir=desc&MinPA=200

And for those of you wondering, DDJ is 20th this year. Mark Ellis is right behind at 21. Billy Butler is 29th. The place rankings are with a minimum of 200 base runners. Guillen’s had 196 base runners this year, so making 195 the minimum puts Guillen at 78th.

I admit, that’s not as bad as I was expecting. But his skills are declining with the bat, and he has zero range in the outfield. I think I’d be less inclined to dislike him in the lineup if Trey didn’t bat him cleanup. Teahen would have driven in just 66 runs at his rate with Guillen’s 2008 baserunners. I’ve never been that hostile to Teahen, but his RBI% is crap the last 2 years (around 11.5%). Oh, and Yuni is tied with Teahen in 2008.

by AxDxMx on Sep 24, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No it doesn't!!!

Because Guillen had a .380 OBP and a .867 OPS in the Royals 18-8 September last year.

This run really has nothing to do with Guillen. If I can recall correctly the Royals were fucking horrible without Guillen this year too, in July/August.

Yes everyone hates Guillen on this board, most of it is justifiable, but come on. Don’t be ridiculous. THere is no logic to your second paragraph. How about this one Ax.

Is it a coincidence that we are playing our best ball with Gil Meche and Brian Bannister not hurting us anymore by being out for the season!!!!

by GobbleforCyoung on Sep 24, 2009 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's entirely impossible

For Guillen to have a bounce-back year next year. Now, of course, “bounce-back” here means, “a net wash”, but 33 is not 38. He’s not dead yet. And trading him now in the offseason is just a bad decision from a value perspective. It’s not possible for him to become any less valuable than he is today. He was injured and playing horrendously before the injury. I have no delusions that the Royals are going to contend next year, so there’s no reason not to trot him out there for a couple of months to see if he can increase his value where he can bring some value in a deadline trade. At that point, he’ll only have $6M on his contract, and he may fetch a B-/C+ prospect. Trading him now is selling ridiculously low.

Who knows, maybe he goes back on the juice and has a positive value next year?

by billexgordler on Sep 24, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is there a way we can ship him some sustanon

That would be awesome, worst case he gets banned for 50 games.

I would take a .290, .360 OBP, 25 HR’s, 110 RBI from him next year as a DH….hell that’s better than Butler this yera

by GobbleforCyoung on Sep 24, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which is why it is ridiculous to think he could do that

I would bet you $50 to a charity of your choice that he doesn’t come close to those numbers.

by AxDxMx on Sep 24, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do you think Guillen might pull this off?

.290, .360 OBP, 25 HR’s, 110 RBI…hahahaha

I’ll jump in and bet anything against Guillen attaining two of those four numbers next year.

I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Sep 24, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess none of you took steriods, or grew up around meatheads

You should come to NY its every day lingo.

I said if we ship him some sustanon, which are steroids he could put up those numbers.

Yeah i think you’re right it would be a miracle if he put up those numbers clean. I think you have a better chance to get struck by lightning

by GobbleforCyoung on Sep 24, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With the line break in between the 2 thoughts

I thought they were separate. Especially with the guy above you talking about a bounce back.

by AxDxMx on Sep 24, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

360 obp?

you’re out of your mind

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Sep 24, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's if he was on steroids billy!!!

He did that when he was on roids, presumably, in the past

by GobbleforCyoung on Sep 25, 2009 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gobble, I admitted it probably is a bit of a coincidence

But he is the worst RF in the game. He hurts the Royals out there. His bat is either hot or ice cold. This year, he’s been pretty crappy all around. In 81 games he posted .242 .314 .367. That’s terrible. There’s no power, and his OBP is barely acceptable thanks to 22 walks this year (he had 23 last year in 153 games).

by AxDxMx on Sep 24, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well you of all people know I was a supporter of his last year

But this year I threw in the towel. He just sucked at the plate. And if you argue that you are hurt all year for two years than you are just fragile bum.

He’s still better than Jacobs though, which is pretty sad

by GobbleforCyoung on Sep 24, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By what measure

Jacobs has been awful, but still, incredibly, better than Jacobs by pretty much any measure i can find.

by kcbottom9th on Sep 25, 2009 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For guy who wants Dayton Moore to die

you sure do think a lot like him

“Guillen’s accustomed level during the Royals 18-8 run last September!!!1111)

Everyone just hates Guillen. That’s it. Tony Pena Jr. was pretty good sometimes too, but everyone just hates him The Betancourt trades was great, but everyone hates Dayton Moore.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

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by devil_fingers on Sep 25, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

only if

RF = player
and
AL = universe

"The life of a (Royals) fan must be lived forward but can only be understood backward" -- Kierkegaard (more or less)

by benfunke on Sep 23, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Correction

Yuniverse. It’s only fair.

by kcbottom9th on Sep 23, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree re: Buck/Olivo

By now, Olivo has as much familiarity with the pitching staff as Buck does, and Greinke, at least, definitely prefers him. He throws out baserunners, and Buck doesn’t. And Olivo’s power numbers are no fluke, he had two seasons of 16 HR apiece before breaking the 20 mark this year.

Keep Olivo. Dump Buck.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Sep 23, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

But all he does is hit HR's

There is no other plus point to his offensive game. He is a poor bat.

He throws out some runners, he also probably lets more advance with passed balls than he does catch stealing.

And I don’t get the Greinke thing. Greinke is a pitcher, he’ll pitch to whichever catcher is there. If he doesn’t like the call then he is a big boy now and can shake it off. Saying “Greinke likes Olivo” is one of the more banal justifications possible. Meche likes Buck! Isn’t it more important to keep our marginal pitchers happy than Greinke who wouldl be awesome anyway (If it has any effect at all, which I doubt)?

by kcbottom9th on Sep 23, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Olivo is about league average with the bat

He’s at 106 OPS+ this year. I don’t think OPS+ is adjusted for position, so if it is ignore this. But an MLB average bat at catcher is very nice considering the crap that is out there. Despite the bad defense, I think I’d be in favor of keeping Olivo and his seemingly new found plate discipline (6 walks already this month!)

Also, if you look at his splits: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=olivomi01&year=2009&t=b#month
He’s been very streaky. 2 terrible months, 2 average, and 2 superstar months. If we could merge the best parts of Olivo and Buck together, we’d have one hell of a catcher.

by AxDxMx on Sep 23, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thats true

But OPS+ has the same major flaw as OPS, in that it weights OBP and SLG the same, when in fact OBP has a far higher correlation to runs scored than SLG does. A player hitting .250/.350/.450 is better than a player hitting .250/.300/.500 (aka Mike Jacobs 08).

OPS+ is slightly different, in that it OBP and SLG to league average. Olivo is very bad at one and very good at the other this year. Unfortunately it is the bad way round.

I guess what i’m saying is that OPS is deceptive, and makes him look more productive then he really is.

by kcbottom9th on Sep 23, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

And keep in mind Olivo has never been close to league average outside of this year.

by Gopherballs on Sep 23, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

But what catchers out there have really good OBA skills? 39 year old Gregg Zaun?

I’m no Olivo fan, but he’s a fine placeholder at $3.3 million until we develop something better. I’d be more focused on getting good OBA from the positions that are SUPPOSED to be our offensive positions – RF and DH.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 23, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even after trading Martinez

Cleveland has a stockpile of talent at catcher. The least interesting, Kelly Shoppach, is also the most available, but he is still basically what we hoped John Buck would become.

by Gopherballs on Sep 23, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And will take talent to get

I’m not keen on trading talent to get a catcher, which is usually a low offense position, particularly when I don’t think our chances of competing in 2010 are high anyway.

I’m fine with stop gaps like Olivo until Will Myers is ready.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 23, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is no other plus point to his offensive game.

So what? How many catchers are available that have a complete offensive game? Ramon Hernandez? Bengie Molina? Both of them are pretty much the same kind of hitter as Olivo.

Olivo does one thing well, but he does it pretty well. I don’t think he will slug .500 next year, but if he regresses to 2008 levels, that’s still pretty good.

More troubling is his defense however, but I don’t see any real good alternatives there either.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 23, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bengie Molina is a cleanup hitter. He must be good.

by 2X2L on Sep 23, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gregg Zaun

has basically the same wOBA as Olivo this season, and had been superior the two previous seasons. OBP represents repeatable skilsl better than slug, and he constantly OBPs around .340.

His defense kinda bites, but, well…

The main thing is he’ll be cheaper.

buck will probably be too expensive, but note that his wOBA his actually around league average this season (very good for a catcher).

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

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by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

First of all

Buck is a terrible hitter too. His OBP is below .300 also. It’s slightly higher than Olivo’s, I’ll grant you, but when it’s down in that category anyway, a few points here or there doesn’t justify the less power and worse arm.

Secondly, has Meche (or anyone else) actually expressed a specific preference for Buck? Sure, the pitchers will pitch to whomever the manager pencils into the lineup next to a “C”, but the only preference I recall hearing expressed is Grienke’s for Olivo.

Thirdly, assuming that a passed ball = 1 base advanced and a wild pitch = 1 base advanced, and a caught stealing = -1 base advanced, Buck has cost his teams more with his fielding than Olivo has. I calculated as follows: Over the years 2005-2008 (Buck’s first full season was 2005, and BaseballReference.com does not have catcher Wild Pitch numbers for 2009 yet), I calculated catcher bases allowed as passed balls + wild pitches + stolen bases – caught stealings. I then divided that total by the number of games caught each year to get an average “bases allowed per game.” Adding them up over the four year period, Olivo has allowed fewer bases per game than Buck. Three out of the four years, Olivo allowed fewer, with 2007 being the odd one out. So Olivo wins on that score as well.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Sep 23, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But a passed ball can score a run

whereas a stolen base (practically) can not.

by PopeSoria on Sep 23, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yah, but an steal vs an out is .62 of run and a passball can be .15 of a run.

This is going first to second. A passed ball can be more then that, of course, but if you look at averages, then caught stealing counts for more then a passed ball.

Go Royals!

by BabyBlues on Sep 23, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

pretty much

Justin Inaz’s article on catcher defense has the value of a CS at .63 and the value of a wp/pb at .28.

I’m hoping to do an modified version of catcher defense plus/minus runs shortlyl after the regular season is over.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Buck is catcher who has had back problems

Back problems in a catcher scare me and I don’t think he will be a catcher for long. Get what you can from him if you can find a team that wants him as a backup catcher.

by Valcour on Sep 23, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The main reason i chose to let Olivo walk is

we can get something for him in the form of a first round draft pick. Before Miguel went on his tear i think we would have all taken this in return for Miguel. Not to mention the fact that we need to slice some of the payroll from that position and Olivo costs more then Buck.

Jamie freakin Wright, nuff said.

by Gantz9 on Sep 23, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We all saw how well that worked out with Grudz.

I’m not saying it wouldn’t happen, but it’s no guarantee.

by AxDxMx on Sep 23, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Type A?

Looks like he’s projected as barely a Type B.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/09/elias-rankings-update-2.html

Also do you get compensation if you decline an option? Don’t you still have to offer arbitration, and if so, wouldn’t he accept the offer?

by meatbox on Sep 23, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

+1

Its like choosing between eating raw food or rotten food. They both suck

But Buck has a sub .300 OBP with less power/defensive ability, granted Olivo feels the need to give up a few runs a week by passed balls.

And Greinke seems to like Olivo so thats the deal breaker

by GobbleforCyoung on Sep 24, 2009 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pretty good ideas

Honestly, its better than what we will end up doing. I’d rather have Hooch in the rotation, Davies in the pen, and try out different guys as closers – probably Cruz to begin, then Rosa when he got his feet wet.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 23, 2009 1:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

Jamie freakin Wright, nuff said.

by Gantz9 on Sep 23, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BANNED!!!

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Sep 23, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

needs the cow

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

THATS IT!

Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures

by averagegatsby on Sep 23, 2009 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

did someone actually get banned

or the comment deleted?

At least Wally Joyner's not on the team....

by tcon125 on Sep 23, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lol, no

It’s a joke referring to Rany “being banned” for criticizing the Royals.

by kcbottom9th on Sep 23, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i win amateur comment of the night

thank you, and goodnight.

At least Wally Joyner's not on the team....

by tcon125 on Sep 23, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

never

“HE LIED!!!!”

Dayton Moore

Air Cassel - approved for takeoff

by kabrink on Sep 23, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In 2008

Before he hit 183/208/250 and had major elbow surgery. Let’s see how he is after rehab (which might extend into the 2010 season) before writing him into the starting lineup.

Ditching Betancourt is fine, though.

by Gopherballs on Sep 23, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about trading for J.J. Hardy?

Hardy is rated well by both UZR and Dewan +/-
This would also give us the opportunity to upgrade defensively at two positions by moving Aviles to 2B. Aviles might not outhit Callaspo but he might be enough of a defensive upgrade to make up the difference.

by SK on Sep 23, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

depends on what the Royals have to give up for Hardy

although I think he’s under club control through 2012 due to the “coincidence” of his minor league stint this season… even though he was a good enough defender to still be league average.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hardy is a free agent after the 2011 season (it would have been 2010)

I like Hardy but would prefer to add players the team could keep at least 3 years, especially if the Royals have to give up real value to get them.

by Gopherballs on Sep 23, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

okay

that changes things

I wonder if the Rays would do Soria for Brignac+?

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

now things are getting interesting

But knowing the Rays front office, I’m not sure they would give up talent in a trade for a closer.

by Gopherballs on Sep 23, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

considering their trades, I might be even more afraid of Dayton being on the phone with Andrew Friedman than I am of more go-rounds with Jack Z. and Beinfest (who whoever runs the show in Florida).

Too bad about K-Rod — Omar (aka the Dominican Dayton™) is about the only GM left to deal with, and I bet the Royals could get that “disaster” Jose Reyes + Fernando Martinez out of him for Soria.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rays should consider signing Wagner or having Davis or Hellickson close instead of making a trad

Imagine how awesome their outfield with Crawford in LF, Jennings in CF, and Upton in RF. That would be a ridiculously talented outfield to pair with an already ridiculous infleld.

by SK on Sep 23, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

while Soria for Brignac seems like an idea worth pursuing, let's not kid ourselves...

GMDM loves loves loves loves extra-super-loves Yuni, and there is no way he even considers replacing him until it becomes way, way, way past clear that Yuni is detracting rather than adding to the team’s success. Which will be never.

"The life of a (Royals) fan must be lived forward but can only be understood backward" -- Kierkegaard (more or less)

by benfunke on Sep 23, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Im not sold on trading Soria.

Yes Upton has more upside, but he hasnt really proved himself to be that great yet. But DM cant keep throwing out brand new bullpens each year, and getting rid of Soria puts the Royals back to one of their main problems during the Sweeney-Beltran-Damon years: Crappy closers who blow games. I think a dominating bullpen is under-rated in baseball and was obviously a huge problem for the Royals this year was getting through late in games.

by KCG816 on Sep 23, 2009 2:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hate that argument, because it's just not true

Look at Brian Fuentes this year in LAA:

4.21 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 108 ERA+, 4.53 FIP, .2 WAR, 44 SAVES!

He’s a below average reliever and he still has 44 saves, with just 7 Blown Saves.

by AxDxMx on Sep 23, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah blowing leads late sucks

so it sticks in your mind more. But what about the long stretches where there were no leads to blow? I’ll take a team that is winning after 7 innings most of the time and roll the dice with whatever relievers are available.

by PopeSoria on Sep 23, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like some of the ideas, but that hypothetical team doesn't even sniff 80 wins

Soria should definitely be traded. Closers are still overvalued and the Royals could get someone(s) who could help them win more games than Soria does.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Sep 23, 2009 2:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

not that unlucky

since WAR doesn’t adjust for league at all yet… WAR as a decent R-squared, as Jeff showed at BtBS, but to reallly reconstruct how “unlucky” the team was, we’d have to look at the WAR of the opponents then do some sort of Odds Ratio thing to see how many games they “should” have one.

For example, see the related Power Rankings from last week. Even adjusted for league, he Royals are still 22nd in the whole MLB and are a .446 team. The Royals are currenltly a .417 team (63-88). A .446 team would have won about 67 games… that’s a bit better. But remember that the Power Rankings adjust for league.. all the teams below the Royals in Justin’s rankings are NL teams. In other words, in terms of “true” runs scored and allowed, as of last week the Royals were the worst team in the AL, and might very well have been lucky to win as many games as they have so far.

This isn’t to say that they haven’t underperformed to with respect to WAR — they have, but not by that much. There’s no way to spin this season as anything other as a fireable offense (although I’m not saying you’re arguing otherwise).

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its hard to imagine a scenario

Where we could realistically upgrade this to a team that does sniff 80 wins without some pretty amazing things happening – Greinke repeating, Aviles reverting to 2008 performance, Gordon becoming the second coming etc…

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 23, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We just need to chalk up 2010 as another losing, (hopefully) rebuilding season

Short of releasing/trading sunk costs Guillen and Betancourt at the MLB level, making a drastic splash in the FA market (I’m talking Yankees-esque, like signing Carl Crawford AND John Lackey), and one decent trade for RP or SP depth, there is no way the Royals finish above .500 next year.

In all seriousness, what are the chances that we see the Royals trout out Guillen as the Opening Day RF and we re-sign Mike Jacobs? Sadly this scenario would not surprise me in the least.

Waiting for April.

by DC Royal on Sep 23, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

absolutely

Look at how awesome we were in April and September.

Air Cassel - approved for takeoff

by kabrink on Sep 23, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I think Guillen and Jacobs will be back

And I think Guillen will get most of the starts in RF (when healthy enough to play). Jacobs will likely continue his part-time DH role.

The immoderate moderator

by NYRoyal on Sep 23, 2009 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that leaves us

merely 1, ONE!, player from going all the way!

Air Cassel - approved for takeoff

by kabrink on Sep 23, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dayton loves Mike's clubhouse presence

When he’s not brawling with Guillen of course.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 24, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about trading Soria for prospects instead of active players?

Anybody have any interesting scenarios with that in mind?

Would it be worth it to trade Soria for 3-4 low level guys that have huge upside or 1-2 guys that could come up during the 2010 season and contribute immediately, but maybe unspectacularly?

by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Sep 23, 2009 3:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This was another option I considered.

I think that any trade that will bring us back anything of value this offseason will have to include Soria. Teahen and Dejesus will not bring us back enough value for what we need. I would be open to trading him for some top flight prospects.

Jamie freakin Wright, nuff said.

by Gantz9 on Sep 23, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Soria would be different than most closers that get traded.

He still has several (cheap) years left on his deal, and he is under the age of thirty. Most of the closers that get moved these days are either rent a player deals or guys that are on the back end of their career. That is why I feel we can get some value for him. Can you imagine how many more games the Rays would have won this year with him as their closer and Howell back as a set up guy? I am guessing a bunch.

Jamie freakin Wright, nuff said.

by Gantz9 on Sep 23, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't question the process!

Jamie freakin Wright, nuff said.

by Gantz9 on Sep 23, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

THATS IT!

Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures

by averagegatsby on Sep 23, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Braves

gave us Kyle Davies for Octavio Dotel.

And of course, the Mets gave us Brian Bannister for Ambiorix Burgos, who we were pretending was a closer for a while.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Sep 23, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't hate it.

Especially the ditching Teahan for anybody part.

by LaFLamme on Sep 23, 2009 4:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

down the River of Broken Dreams

by war of The Process™ Canal

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

war=way

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 23, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly this would be best case

scenerio IMO, if only we could dump Yuni. But the fact that we are but several weeks removed from his acquisition shows that not only will he still be here, but none of the above smart moves are likely to happen. Jacobs will be back, Jogui will too. Expect one of the stud pitching prospects to be dealt for marginal-at-best “talent” with much RR protesting to follow. You know, Dayton stuff.

Duffy*, Montgomery*, and Melville* for Willy Taveras and Paul Janish
*currency of baseball

by McClure 'stache on Sep 23, 2009 4:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wow

This is an absolutely epic post, simply because everything I have been screaming about in the last few weeks (not here, haven’t been on RR in a while) is covered. With the exception of the Joakim Soria trade idea, I couldn’t agree with these proposals more. I’m not completely against trading him, I just think the primary reason the idea seems appealing is because he has been mismanaged this season. I say keep Jack and use him more wisely.

Oh, and Kila now.

by FretFriendly on Sep 23, 2009 6:05 PM EDT via mobile reply actions   0 recs

This thread reminds me of

one of those “what I’d do if I won the lottery” discussions.

It’s all great and fun to talk about, but we know none of this will actually happen. The April roster will look shockingly like the September one, with the added benefit of Guillen trotting out to RF each day.

by Black and Gold on Sep 23, 2009 7:34 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

+1

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 24, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow...

that last post brought the buzz to an end, didn’t it?

by LaFLamme on Sep 23, 2009 7:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Sorry

I just cracked my first beer, so maybe that will help.

by Black and Gold on Sep 23, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hochevar as a closer?

That’s a bit of a stretch. I don’t really see that working out very well.

I can’t imagine the Rays would trade Upton for Soria. I would make that trade in a heartbeat though. I kind of have a feeling Soria’s reached his peak. I think he will be a good closer for the next 5 or so years, but I think Upton could have more upside.

There will be a few easy moves for Dayton to make this offseason. He will get rid of Jacobs, and probably release Buck. What will really be interesting is to see if he does anything with Guillen. The fact he’s in a contract year would give me a bit more hope that he will have a better season.

If Dayton can fix the bullpen (a.k.a. no more stupid reliever for overrated position player trades) and improve the defense, the Royals could be about a 75 win team next year. yay!

by jjbjhawk on Sep 23, 2009 8:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree...

I think Davies would be a better closer than Hochevar, or I guess Hochevar a better starter.

Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures

by averagegatsby on Sep 23, 2009 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Overall not a bad post.

I like some of the ideas. Not sure about trading Soria or putting Hochevar in the pen. Luke has really improved his K/BB ratio and seems to have the potential to be a top of the line starter (remember that was always in doubt before some of his star performances this year)

Trading Soria would be a bad idea only because I can see a team taking him and making him an All Star caliber starter right before our eyes. I think Davies looks like bullpen material at this point and Tejeda/Kila are no brainers at this point.

I already said we might as well give Guillen his last shot as a DH only becuase we already paid for it.

by GobbleforCyoung on Sep 24, 2009 7:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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