Zack Greinke didn’t really impress me last night. He pitched well and maybe I caught him on a bad n...

Zack Greinke didn’t really impress me last night. He pitched well and maybe I caught him on a bad night, but to me he didn’t seem dominant. Greinke has may have the lowest ERA in the AL since Pedro Martinez in 2000, but he doesn’t strike me as the dominant force that Pedro was during his statistical peak. ...

He reminds me of a right-handed Roger Moret. He has that long and lean frame but good speed on his fastball and sporadic command.

Jim Rice: Unimpressed by Zack Greinke

4 months ago RoyalsRetro 42 comments 1 recs |

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Are we supposed to comment on this?

sporadic command.

I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Sep 24, 2009 5:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hey Jim

Grab a bat and step in there

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Sep 24, 2009 5:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If you base your opinion on something strictly off one sample

then you are just shining a light on your own ignorance. The one time I saw A-Rod in person he struck out three times. Man that guy sucks…

by stram#1 on Sep 24, 2009 5:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I have seen Pedro once live in my life

In his awesome 2002 season. At Toronto, he pitched 6 innings and gave up 4 runs (I think) with a couple of walks and about 5 K’s. He looked very average.

Luckily, i’m not a dick, and so didn’t take this as proof that he was only an average pitcher and that all the numbers I saw before hand were just luck.

Honestly it’s mind blowing that he thinks Greinke has “sporadic command”. Has he been in a cave for the last 6 months?

by kcbottom9th on Sep 24, 2009 5:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It also seems...

his based perception is on what Zack looks like, Roger Moret…and since Moret didn’t have good command; therefore thus Zack can’t either.

That totally makes sense.

Sponsor of the Will Ebner Physical Therapy Center for Players Who've Been Hit By Will Ebner and Want to Try to Stop the Ringing. Or WEPTCPWBHBWEWTSR for short.

by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Sep 24, 2009 6:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

sounds like John Kruk

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Sep 25, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This puts Zack in excellent company

because Jim Rice also said recently that Manny Ramirez, A-Rod, and Derek Jeter also fail to measure up to various precursors.

This strengthens Zack’s MVP case, no?

by 2X2L on Sep 24, 2009 6:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

who the hell is jim rice?

so he didnt impress even though he shut out a playoff team with 6 k’s.. come on now

by rockchalks7 on Sep 24, 2009 7:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Every time I start to think reasonable baseball analysis has gone mainstream

I read something like this

by awolfson on Sep 24, 2009 7:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

There are always idiots around

I don’t know why we think ex-players should be particularly insightful. They probably harbor some of the deepest misconceptions about the game, how it should be played, and what is valuable.

by AxDxMx on Sep 25, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

e.g.

Joe Morgan

I used to work with an old man that told me. Son, every workplace has a dumbass, if you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.

by Warden11 on Sep 25, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

torches and pitchforks?

by BrRoyal on Sep 25, 2009 7:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I mean

TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS!

by BrRoyal on Sep 25, 2009 7:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

sigh

by royalsreview on Sep 25, 2009 7:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i posted a similar comment on joe's blog but...

Roger (Rogelio) Moret was a decent middle reliever that Jim Rice played with for a couple years in Boston. Nothing special. He was a 6’4" dark-skinned puerto rican, i.e., he looked NOTHING like Zack Greinke. He struck out 408 batters in his career, or roughly what Zack has done in the last two years. BUT, Roger Moret suffered a psychologic breakdown in 1978 when, he went catatonic before a start. It was very dramatic. He was allegedly holding out a shower shoe in his hand and completely unresponsive. He spent some time in a psychiatric ward and made only a few more appearances before his career ended. Undoubtedly, for Rice, Roger Moret is “that pitcher who went crazy.”

aside: It’s very likely that if Roger Moret had played for the early 21st c Royals, he’d have been treated much better for his psychological issues that he was, and his career may have been better. I can’t imagine how hard it was have been for him. /aside

Now we have Zack Greinke. One of the best prospects of the decade who had social anxiety disorder and who left his team to seek treatment before suffering any serious break. He was handled with care and concern by his GM, Manager and owner (which treatment will ALWAYS redound to the credit of Baird, Glass and Buddy Bell, in my opinion). He spent a few weeks away from the game, started taking medicine and was back with the organization within three months. He’s now the best pitcher in baseball, has never suffered a serious injury, is through the injury nexus, and poised to become one of the best players of his generation.

Now back to Rice: he had a teammate, Roger Moret, who (again, in his mind, likely) “went crazy”. Zack Greinke also “went crazy”. Voila: Zack Greinke reminds him of Roger Moret. There can be no other reason. It’s not physical likeness, it’s not about stuff or results or role. It’s that reductive. How embarrassing. His opinion in useless.

by billexgordler on Sep 25, 2009 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs

Although there’s little physical resemblance, perhaps their pitcing motions were similar? I found the following description of Moret, written by Peter Gammons in 1974, in The Neyer/James Guide To Pitchers :

When Rogelio Moret pitches, he looks like he is falling out of a tree. But the tall, floppy lefthander with a ragdoll arm has the ability to throw a ball hard… very hard.

So 6’ 4", 170 to 175, floppy, ragdoll arm, lefty, walk rate 4.2/9 and 6’ 2", 200, smooth and balanced motion, righty, walk rate 2.3/9. That’s some original insight right there, Rice.

by 2X2L on Sep 25, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I stand corrected

I retract my entire premise and post.

by billexgordler on Sep 25, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i meant the above...

…sarcastically…how do you do the sarcastic font again?

by billexgordler on Sep 25, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

< code > ….. < /code >

Without the spaces inside the angle brackets.

by 2X2L on Sep 25, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

to add to 2X2L

what i like to do is highlight the text and click the “blockquote” button, then replace the word “blockquote” with the word “code” in the beginning and ending brackets (and then preview, of course)

"The life of a (Royals) fan must be lived forward but can only be understood backward" -- Kierkegaard (more or less)

by benfunke on Sep 25, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Look At Me!

I'm a computer genius

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Sep 25, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have about the same respect for Jim Rice as an evaluator of contemporary pitchers

As I do for Dayton Moore as a major league General Manager.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 25, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs

shhhh…if GMDM sees this, he’s going to hire Rice as a special consultant

"The life of a (Royals) fan must be lived forward but can only be understood backward" -- Kierkegaard (more or less)

by benfunke on Sep 25, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rice's comments were originally posted

at ask14.sullivantire.com, “The official blog of Jim Rice”.

They have apparently since been removed. Thus endeth Jim Rice’s career in player evaluation.

by 2X2L on Sep 25, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

test

We really need to be sensitive and pay the legends of the game the respect that they're due. Billy Butler is doing nothing but standing on Jim Rice's fearsome shoulders.

by billexgordler on Sep 25, 2009 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

My snark at BTF:

Jim Rice’s career doesn’t really impress me. He hit well and maybe I caught him on a bad stretch, but to me he didn’t seem dominant. Rice has may have been the AL Most Valuable Player in 1978, but he doesn’t strike me as the dominant force that Ted Williams was during his statistical peak.

Don’t get me wrong, Rice hit very well but he was not the hitting beast at the plate that Bonds or Ruth (or even Joe Dimaggio) were during their reign of dominance. He slugged .502 with 398 home runs, but it’s not like he was drawing tons of walks or playing Gold Glove defense.

He reminds me of a right-handed Ryan Klesko. He has that burly physique but a powerful stroke and defensive limitations.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Sep 25, 2009 10:59 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs

say it

wished I could have rec’d it there

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 25, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sporadic command?

Wow.

By the way, I agree that he is not at Pedro-in-his-prime level. But to be unimpressed? Count me out on the Rice for the HOF campaign. I liked this guy when I was a kid, but such lazy, sloppy analysis is uncalled for.

If your opinion means so little to you that you can stake it without becoming informed first, then maybe you should simply shut up and keep it to yourself.

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Sep 25, 2009 11:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i agree....

i wouldnt even put this on the same level with pedro…and the stats seem to bear that out….but it’s definitely in that next tier of greatness…which makes it almost certainly as the best pitching performance since in his prime Pedro.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Sep 25, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, that's the point

this season isn’t as good as PEdro 1999 (or 2000, I can’t remember), but if it’s the best season since then, I think that’s still pretty good.

Hanley Ramirez isn’t as good as Honus Wagner. I’m not impressed.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 25, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i feel like 97, 99 and 2000 pedro all fit the bill

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Sep 26, 2009 6:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My own WAR figures, top 13 post '94 strike seasons by pitchers

1. Clemens 1997 12.5
2. Pedro 1999 11.8
3. Pedro 2000 10.8
4. Big Unit 2001 10.8
5. Unit 1999 10.2
6. Unit 2004 10.1
7. Maddux 1997 9.9
8. Kevin Brown 1998 9.8 (9.82)
9. Maddux 1995 9.8 (9.78)
10. Schilling 2002 9.8 (9.75)
11. Unit 1995 9.7 (9.69)
12. Unit 2000 9.7 (9.66)
13. Pedro 1997 9.6

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 26, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

crap

meant to post more. When I used regular FIP, Pedro ’99 was the best, but I do think BsR-FIP is better because it adjusts the weight of events better for the pitchers own run environment.

Having said that, Clemens ‘97 win out primarily because he pitched 264 innings in 34 games (this is also why Johnson gets so high). In terms of win%, that is, how often a team allowing as many “runs” (in this case, fielding independent BaseRuns) per game as the pitcher while having an average offense, or, in other words, “per start dominance,” Pedro’s 1999 and 2000 blow away the field. The two highest other than those are Clemens in 1997 with .789, and Johnson’s 1995 with .786.

In 2000, Pedro’s win% was .827, and in 1999, .866. In 1997, it was “only” .737.

So playing time aside, Pedro’s 1999 and 2000 were just unbelievable.

Although I’ll redo all this stuff after the World series, right now I have Zack at 9.1 WAR with a .744 win%. So he has a chance to break into the top 10 there.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 26, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I REALLY want the Royals to make the playoffs before Zack leaves

Apparently, that’s the only way the morons on the East Coast will ever respect him (seeing him shut down a team in the postseason)

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Sep 25, 2009 12:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Sent this email to the blog admin address

“I am writing because of the blog post which existed on this site regarding Zack Greinke. I found the analysis written to be subpar, and I am concerned because of the comparison that was made with Roger Moret. It has been pointed out to me that Moret struck out around 400 batters in his entire career, while Greinke has over 700, and he is only 25. Moret never pitched 200 innings in a season. Zack has done so twice, and again, he is only 26. Moret never spent a whole season with an ERA under 3. Greinke is going to finish the 2009 season with an ERA very close to 2.00.

“Numbers are certainly not everything in baseball, but they do evaluate the performance of a pitcher over a long period of time. Mr. Rice’s analysis was insightful because he actually played the game; however, even the best analysts use multiple performances to evaluate talent, a luxury Mr. Rice did not afford Zack Greinke. I am asking for this blog to state explicitly that the comparison published here was a bad one, and also that the one-performance-evaluation published should not be regarded when the Baseball Writers Association of America goes to vote for the Cy Young Award.

“Thank you for your time.”

by Bornin85 on Sep 25, 2009 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I would like you to note that the post was changed after this...

He reminds me of a right-handed Roger Moret. He has that long and lean frame but good speed on his fastball. [[Let me reiterate that this assessment is based on seeing him pitch once, and he was effective. He’s had a great season, but I need to see more from him before I call him a dominant pitcher.]]

New stuff in brackets.

I’m certain it was solely because of my email and nothing else. You’re welcome.

by Bornin85 on Oct 1, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs