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I don't trust their ability to develop pitchers. I don't think the Royals have a clue about pitching. Guess what between the time the Braves developed Jason Schmidt and Kevin Millwood in the late 90's and the time Dayton Moore left the farm system there is a gap between the late 90's and 2000's when the Braves didn't develop any pitching. Basically those guys get out Tommy Hanson doop Kris Medlen doop, Braves start developing pitching again. I don't think it's a coincidence the guys that were in Atlanta during that time and in Kansas City now don't know how to develop pitching.

John Manuel Baseball America Podcast- This rant started after he started talking about a riff between the Royals org and Mike Montgomery about his long toss workout. Nice bash on the use of Soria also. Baseball America Front page

about 2 years ago 4-_wil_myers_tiny kcscoliny 44 comments 1 recs  | 

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Wow I have to agree

Manuel and many others are very big on long toss and it sounds like the Royals are behind the curve on that as well.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Jan 15, 2010 10:52 PM EST reply actions  

this is obviously a bunch of lies from yet another anti-Royals/Braves propagandist

The Braves always develop their pitching, and never look to free agency. Look at their 2009 rotation: Javy Vazquez, Derek Lowe, Jair Jurrjens, Kenshin Kawakami, Tommy Hanson.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jan 15, 2010 11:31 PM EST reply actions  

I'm pretty disappointed by what I heard.

I like Manuel and I have to agree with what he was saying. First Guet now Montgomery, this FO is not playing nice with their young players. Probably minor, lets hope.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Jan 15, 2010 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Who besides Dick Kagel is pro-Royals anymore?

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman on Jan 15, 2010 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Tim Lacy?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

Pete Carroll's biggest problem in joining the NFL ranks? Obeying a salary cap...

by Warden11 on Jan 16, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

lol

i appreciate having those around with opinions from pessimistic to optimistic.

but it still made me laugh a little

Conversation b/t Special baseball operations consultant Zapp Brannigan and GM Dayton Moore: "...but paper covers rock and rock crushes scissors...we have a conundrum. Get me some paper, a rock, and some scissors."

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jan 16, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Also Arguelles throws a slider.

Are they gonna let him keep it? They haven’t taught anyone to use the slider since GMDM came into the fold and have prevented a couple youngsters from using a slider.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Jan 15, 2010 11:47 PM EST reply actions  

arguelles is far enough along

that they won’t take his slider away, sort of like with Hochevar

Conversation b/t Special baseball operations consultant Zapp Brannigan and GM Dayton Moore: "...but paper covers rock and rock crushes scissors...we have a conundrum. Get me some paper, a rock, and some scissors."

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jan 16, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

i wish we'd just let these kids get better...

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Jan 16, 2010 1:08 AM EST reply actions  

If Mike Montgomery gets Cortes'd or Gutierrez'd,

then I’m done til DM is gone. Sure I’ll watch from afar, but I’ll refuse to attend games or buy any merch, or even watch on TV.

Happens once, it’s an outlier, happens twice, a pattern is forming. A 3rd time? Then it’s not the players, it’s the FO. Does any other team have issues like this?

by AxDxMx on Jan 16, 2010 2:21 AM EST reply actions  

i wonder what their excuse for giving away Montgomery will be...

if he doesnt beat his woman, smoke weed or piss on a fence….

NYRoyal…is Montgomery wrong for wanting to long toss? Since he’s a paid employee under contract?

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 16, 2010 4:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Scary if he's right

The only optimism about the organization now is that they appear to be strong a recognizing and developing pitchers. If that’s a mirage………..

Unless I'm wrong...
My Twitter feed

by Top Ramen on Jan 16, 2010 10:09 AM EST reply actions  

Well

I guess if you wanted be really picky.

They have only identified them. They haven;t developed a single genuine prospect pitcher to even AA yet.

That will change next year of course, with Duffy and Montgomery in AA. But it’s not like they really have any track record of successful young pitcher development yet.

by kcbottom9th on Jan 16, 2010 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I asked Mayo about the Montgomery rumor

and he had not heard anything about it.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Jan 16, 2010 11:41 PM EST reply actions  

I would be more

concerned about this if both of these guys were harping on this. The guy who actually covers the Royals added nothing to this after Manuel finishes going off. Also putting Medlen with Hansen is dumb. Hansen was a draft and follow that has turned out beautifully at the MLB level. What the hell has Medlen done? Where any of the pitching prospects that were there while DM was there as highly ranked as our current group? I doubt it.

by gordonrules on Jan 17, 2010 12:59 AM EST reply actions  

Yes, I listened to the podcast

And it just seemed like a hatchet job. Something like “I never thought a lot of all those Braves Guys anyway.” The comment is shot from the hip, so it is not like they did a study on how many “can’t miss” pitching prospects they ruined. Nor is there more than anecdotal evidence for the claim: “look at the team now.” Did any of their prospects get traded and succeed in other organizations? Just a tacky comment that the person knew who get circulation because the opinion of the GM’s Major League moves is really poor. And he was right.

As for Montgomery, put me in the camp of “a 22 year pitcher that learned a work routine in high school is not an expert on what types of exercises are good for the arm long-term.” We may have our suspicions about the medical staff, but I’m willing to bet hat a pitcher with no college education does not know as much as our training staff. The D-Gutz issue was similar to what we are seeing with Beltran — Boras becoming active in seeking outside medical attention. They just gave Montgomery an award, and he is getting better. He just became the best prospect in the entire organization. I don’t think the lack of long toss is really hurting him.

I know it is easy to hate on GMDM, but this one is pretty lousy reason, all things considered.

by bas on Jan 17, 2010 11:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't pitchers stretch out their arms with long toss on their off days?

That’s what they are all doing out in the outfield during pregame BP. I don’t understand why the Royals said no, unless it was an offseason supposed to be resting issue.

by AxDxMx on Jan 17, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

There is more to it I'm sure...

Maybe because of his workload in the offseason? You don’t want to long toss on a daily basis. Maybe 3-4 times per week… not 6 or 7….

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Jan 17, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Here is an article

on the advantages of increasing the longtoss workout

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Jan 17, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Montgomery figures to be somewhere in the 25-40 group on most lists....

While the rest follow behind him, with probably Crow and possibly Duffy landing on the back end most top100 lists. Now lets look at the Braves top 100 pitchers according to BA….How many of those names have you even heard of? These guys are all miserable failures. The two names from the lists that werent failures, Wainwright and possibly Marquis, had their successes after they left the Braves organization…

Davies #53 2005
Bubba Nelson #75 2004
Dan Meyer #82 2004
Bubba Nelson #58 2003
Macay McBride #68 2003
Brett Everet #66 2002
Matt Belisle #96 2002
Matt Belisle #28 2001
Matt McClendon #51 2001
Luis Rivera #51 2000
Bruce Chen #4 1999
Odalis Perez #31 1999
Kevin McGlinchy #47 1999
Luis Rivera #71 1999
Chen #27 1998
Rivera #44 1998
Robbie Bell #68 1998
McGlinchy #39 1997

So, in conclusion, the Braves had a ton of guys as highly rated as our (not that) highly rated pitching prospects…and for whatever reason, the VAST majority of them failed. As soon as Dayton and Co. leave, they have a guy like Hansen, who wasnt at all highly rated add 5 MPH to his FB and explode onto the scene….maybe it was the long toss?

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 17, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

that is certainly not a ton of guys

there are the same guys on your list several times. Also if these fellows were so good they would have become stars somewhere else if they were being held back by GMDM right?

by gordonrules on Jan 17, 2010 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I was just responding to your point that the Braves didnt have highly ranked guys when DM was there....

and most years they had about 2 guys in the BA top 100…which is similar to what the Royals will have this year.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 17, 2010 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

oh....and while prospect lists are far from perfect...

their failure rate for pitchers in DMs time there was off the charts

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 17, 2010 11:36 PM EST up reply actions  

It might be added that Greinke had a lot more success

when he decided to follow the Royals training program.

by Dadunca on Jan 17, 2010 1:03 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think we can use Greinke as a data point,

he put up 2.2 wins above replacement in 2004 and 2.6 in 2005 according to Fangraphs. He could be on all sorts of programs and still be awesome.

However, as a counterpoint- Gil Meche, Brian Bannister, Joakim Soria, and every other pitcher that’s been on the DL in the last two years.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

by Warden11 on Jan 17, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

But Greinke definitely found more success when he went with an MLB training program as opposed to his high school one. The issue isn’t whether another program would be better (obviously it would, look no further than what we saw last year), but whether it’s better than what a kid’s dad or coach set him up with. Ordinarily, you would have to defer to the pros. In this organization…well, maybe not.

by Dadunca on Jan 17, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

How do we know if Greinke has changed his training regimen?

Your first sentence says he found more success after he changed, I don’t remember hearing about a change other than the mental stuff.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

by Warden11 on Jan 17, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

When he adopted the Royals training program

His velocity jumped about 3-4 MPH. He had ignored working out his legs the way the royals asked him to for years because, and I quote, he “just didn’t want big legs.” That bit was on the Royals homepage a couple of years ago. Before his pedestrian sophomore season he famously refused to follow team guidelines because they didn’t garauntee that he’d get anyone out with them. That was in the KC Star.

by Dadunca on Jan 17, 2010 3:22 PM EST reply actions  

Can't really compare Montgomery's

workouts and Greinke’s. The problem with the Royals FO is that they are never ever open to other suggestions. Lots of teams believe in an increased long toss routine. And it’s not just High School workouts they disagreed with Gutierrez working with Boras’ camp which I’m sure is far from high school I would bet. GMDM believes he is infallible despite the results continuously punching him in the face.

I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.

by kcscoliny on Jan 17, 2010 4:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Really?

The BA article posted above suggests the Rangers are one of the few that is pressing the issue. Some colleges have tried it (which ones), and the players credit it with success.

Isn’t there a scientific model that can speak to the increased strengh vs. wear and tear argument, perhaps with some basis in physiology?

by bas on Jan 17, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not like Ankiel blew out his arm

He just lost it. He couldn’t have found the plate with a map, GPS locator, and a sherpa.

by AxDxMx on Jan 18, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

He did have Tommy John surgery

in ’03, and made it all the way back to the bigs as a pitcher again in ’04.

But a I agree with you, he was done as a pitcher anyway. Who knows how it would have worked out if the Cards didn’t lose the rest of their rotation in the playoffs that year?

by kcbottom9th on Jan 18, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Guess I just thought it was all control related

Didn’t realize he actually DID blow out his arm. :)

by AxDxMx on Jan 18, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

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