Zack Greinke Should Probably Receive Some Down-Ballot Cy Young Support
When you look at the numbers that matter, Zack Greinke has probably been the 7th most valuable pitcher in the American League this season. Given that the voting for the Cy Young has expanded from 1-3 to 1-5 this year, there's every reason to believe that, when you factor in individual voter whims, Greinke should end up with the odd 4th or 5th place vote here or there.
Now, I don't think that this is actually likely to happen. The baseball writers who vote on the major awards tend to do weird things with their down-ballot votes (although this is much more rampant in the MVP voting, which goes 10 deep). Nevertheless, even in the Cy Young and Rookie of the Year voting, over the years we've seen a fair number of bad-to-random-to-interesting down-ballot votes. I hope that Greinke picks up a few this year. Hey, I'm a fan. More importantly, I think he deserves the recognition.
The perception is that Greinke has obviously had a down year, and we've heard all manner of explanation why. He couldn't repeat 2009. (Who could? That was one of the greatest seasons of all-time.) He's bummed that the Royals are still bad. The pressure got to him. Etc. Because of Greinke's back-story, there's an even greater rush amongst everyone to look for some kind of psychological angle. In addition to being specious and potentially insulting, many of these memes are simply inaccurate. The Royals, for example, were pretty bad last year. Moreover, I think they overstate the problem. Quite simply, Greinke has been a very good pitcher this year.
Greinke's success on the mound this season has been obscured by his W-L record and by his ERA, both of which are tied up with his teammates in complicated ways. When you look at the stats that attempt to focus strictly on what Greinke can control, a different picture emerges.
With a K/9 of 7.40 and a BB/9 of 2.25, Greinke still controlled the strike zone very well in 2010. His K/BB of 3.29 ranked 8th amongst AL starters. Once again, his ERA was inflated by the fact that he pitched in front of a bad Royal defense. Think of some of the infields the Royals have sent out there this season. Both the fancy stats and the empirical observations suggest that Greinke wasn't done many favors by his teammates. All those extra hits add up over the course of a season.
Thus, his FIP, an attempt to reflect on an ERA scale how the pitcher alone has done, is a shiny 3.35, good for 7th in the AL.
Because Greinke has generally pitched very well over the course of his 220 innings, he's been very valuable to the Royals, whether or not they were able to do anything with it. Here are the WAR rankings for AL pitchers:
- Lee: 7.0
- Felix: 6.4
- Verlander: 6.3
- Weaver: 6.0
- Liriano: 6.0
- Lester: 5.6
- Greinke: 5.2
Notably, Greinke comes out ahead of both Price and Sabathia, along with the scores of closers who will inevitably pick up votes. Innings matter.
I don't advocate a straight-WAR ballot from the Baseball Writers. However, I do think it should be part of the discussion. There's a perception out there that Greinke has been medicore this year, that he's struggled to live up to the expectations. That just isn't true. If he'd pitched for a good team, hell, a mediocre team, things would look different. If he pitched for the Yankees, they'd be building statues of him.
Closers are going to get votes. Lesser pitchers like Matt Garza and Gavin Floyd and CC Sabathia are going to get votes. I hope that Zack gets a few.
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for me, this really puts into perspective the Sabathia/Felix debate
it would be one thing if, say, Sabathia was 4th in WAR or something. He’s not.
He will get zero votes, Will
It’s taken 35 years (roughly the time since Bill James began the stats revolution) for the casual fan/baseball writers to (mostly) come around to the idea that pitcher’s wins are a team stat, not an individual stat. Expecting them to also grasp more esoteric concepts, such as FIP, is simply not realistic yet. Don’t get me wrong – they will get there one day – but perhaps not as soon as we would like.
Maybe not an apt comparison, but to me, these sort of changes in the way people think are not unlike eradicating racism in the general population, in that it usually takes a generation dying off before real change can be seen (even though real change was slowly creeping along all the time).
"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009
"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876
Only way I see Greinke getting a vote
Is if a KC writer has a ballot. Even then, it needs to be one that recognizes stats beyond W/L, Ks, and IP.
Disagree
A KC writer is more likely to write in Soria 5th over Greinke (not agreeing with that – just think that’s how the writers still think)
"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009
"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876
Well I still think Im correct that the only chance is from a KC writer
Even if they are more likely to vote Soria (maybe), they would still be the most likely to vote Greinke
There are 2 voters
from every American League city that vote on the AL CY Young. So, there are actually 2 KC writers with ballots.
Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau
by aHorseWithNoName on Oct 1, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
AAAAND I forgot about Cliff Lee
actually, I just thought for some reason he’d been traded to the NL again.
so that’s fixed
Lee hasn't even been in the national "debates"
about the AL Cy Young race this year, and he leads the league in WAR.
See how far away the voters still are? Lee will probably finish 4th or lower.
"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009
"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876
I't an incremental thing
I think most voter now realize that Wins are not everything. Instead they have latched onto ERA.
That’s progress I suppose, but still not very good. Lee, of course, has a modest ERA compared to some his rivals.
This surprises me
Some of the more disappointing games this year for me have been Zack starts. He wasn’t very much fun to watch. Felt like every hitter in the league had him figured out.
Place witty signature here.
With only 5 votes, I really can't see how Zack gets one vote, but who knows.
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many writers use down-ballot votes for pet players and to raise awareness of a guy's season
there will be some weird names on the list to be sure
Perhaps Brandon Morrow
He had 26K’s in one game, and a super high K rate!
It happens for sure on MVP votes and with 10 allowed choices, I can see that
just last year there were only 3 choices for the Cy Young and now it is 5. I think the field is too loaded this year for people to throw away ballots. I like the value stats, but do think if a pitcher is close to another one, the one on a team that made the playoffs should get credit.
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by Jeff Zimmerman on Oct 1, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
But, if voters are filling out ballots strategically, they might leave off the other contenders
If you want Sabathia to win, then you can leave Price and Felix off the ballot, which opens a door for Zack to slide in at that writer’s 4th or 5th choice.
The only people who really know where [the edge] is are the ones who have gone over it.
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Oct 1, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
According to baseball reference
Cliff Lee only has 4.5 WAR
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/leecl02.shtml
They’re doing a piece at fangraphs right now talking about the differences
I have problems with both, as Cameron is bringing up. Actually some combo of each may be the best method.
I may do a piece on this later this offseason.
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by Jeff Zimmerman on Oct 1, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
What Stats Matter?
Also who had a better yr Soria or Greinke?
by PREGNANT ROLLERSKATE on Oct 1, 2010 10:35 PM EDT reply actions





















