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Should The Twins Fire Ron Gardenhire? In Their World, Probably

This is something of a weird post to write. I'm not a big fan in giving much attention to the manager, one way or the other, and I also abhor the media and fan tendency to overreact to playoff success or failure. Nevertheless, I think it's a valid issue to discuss when it comes to the Twins firing Ron Gardenhire.

Earlier this season, the esteemed Joe Posnanski made the argument that while Gardenhire isn't tactically a good manager, he's somehow part of the Twins culture of success. Somehow, in some way that we can't know, Poz argued, Gardenhire helps the Twins win. Regarding that, I essentially agreed with Matt at Fangraphs, who called it a "fallacious argument from ignorance."

So now, the Twins have flamed out of the post-season again. It's interesting that people killed the A's for losing three epic contests to very good Yankee and Red Sox teams (that all went 5 games) but it's really taken this year for the Twins to finally be similarly stigmatized. Only, we know this will have no shelf life. Next year, the Ryan Lefebvres of the world will go back to praising all things Twins. Their post-season failure isn't seen as a verdict on their organizational philosophy. This is actually intellectually sound, yet nevertheless a glaring double-standard. But whatever.

However, the really interesting thing is how the latest playoff failure impacts the main case for Gardenhire's success. If Gardenhire is a good manager because of soft factors: a good motivator of players, good teacher, good stabilizer, etc., then what happens when that same guy is now the face of a zillion straight playoff losses?

Star-divide

 

It seems to me, the Twins have an interesting decision to make. They can stick with Gardenhire, which essentially says, "we're fine, we're going to do what we do." Or they can fire him, and make a bolder statement that, "we've done some things, but now we expect more."

Make no mistake, I don't actually care one way or the other. I don't think Gardenhire is a great manager, and at the same time, I don't think he necessarily should be fired. But, if we inhabit the old-school universe that the Twins live in (and, apparently, JoePo increasingly) then many of the dictates of that universe would say he should probably go.

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Would it really matter if he were fired?

How many wins/losses does a good manager get the blame for compared to a bad one?

broken sun clocks a dog's ass every twice and again --- Crooow

by averagegatsby on Oct 10, 2010 8:20 PM EDT reply actions  

in reality (according to me) no

but if you buy into the manager sets the tone, is the team leader stuff. then maybe he has to go

by Freneau on Oct 10, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think in the post-season

all of this is magnified though. The margin for victory is so much slimmer and the importance of even a single victory is so much larger. I only watched part of the first game in the series though. Were there many situations where he made on obvious tactical mistake?

I just don’t think the twins are built for post-season success. They are deep and good everywhere, but not really great anywhere (except Catcher).

by sfeldkamp on Oct 11, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

As Moe the bartender said on The Simpsons last night

“The only thing I know about strategy is that whatever the manager does, it’s wrong. Unless it works, in which case he’s a button-pusher.”

It does look worse when you can’t improve from one year to the next in the postseason, even when playing the same team, improving your team (debatable, of course, but I think so), and gaining home field advantage at your new ballpark. I don’t think it’s really Gardy’s fault, but I don’t watch their games anymore to really know for sure. I do think the effect managers have on outcomes is more limited than the media and general fanbase will lead you to believe, though, and thus there isn’t that much of a difference between a “good” manager and a “bad” manager.

"This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."

by MinnesotaRoyal on Oct 11, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the problem with the Twins

is that their pitching is a bunch of #3’s (except vs the Royals)
Good for the regular season, as 3/5 games they have pretty favorable pitching matchups, but in the playoffs, it is more about having a top heavy rotation as most teams only throw 3 guys.
Of course, they couldn’t win in the playoffs with Johan either.

OT: Anybody else getting really annoyed by how Tom Verducci holds his microphone with two hands?

Stuck following the Royals since 1976.

by A. B. Aird on Oct 10, 2010 8:21 PM EDT reply actions  

This is exactly the point I would've made...

Do the Twins have even one guy who you feel confident in getting some strikeouts when in a jam? No. Even the Royals have one guy… They’re not going to advance until they get/produce an Ace, and even then it’s not a guarantee…

by Tracer Bullet 82 on Oct 10, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess the Yankees will prove or disprove this though...

Sabathia/Pettite/Hughes does not scare me… We’ll see if a lineup can win you a title…

by Tracer Bullet 82 on Oct 10, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Liriano is pretty close to an Ace

in fact, he is one

I think the composition/style of their pitching staff has been an issue. However, they’ve also had other issues, especially on offense, in previous years. Mostly, I just don’t think they’ve been that good. I think they’ve easily been the worst AL team in the playoffs every year save this one and in 06.

by Freneau on Oct 10, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you're arguing that Liriano might be an Ace...

…Which in my mind makes me think he isn’t one. He’s a “pretty close” as you say, and could be on a given day. That’s a good #2. But look at the shutdown performances we’ve seen already this postseason from the contenders with Halladay, Lincecum, Lee… Granted those were sublime performances, but could Liriano even dream of that? I don’t think so…

Also, it didn’t help that the Minnesota wet-panty-stain Joe Mauer sucked testes that series…

by Tracer Bullet 82 on Oct 10, 2010 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well if Liriano isn't an ace...

then there is less than 10 ace pitchers in the game.

broken sun clocks a dog's ass every twice and again --- Crooow

by averagegatsby on Oct 10, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent Observations, Will

Not only does Ryan Lefevbre blindly praise all things Twins, but so do Denny Matthews and his echo, Bob Davis. I get so TIRED of it! Please give it a rest!

Another thing I don’t like is that these announcers are rarely critical of the Royals. They are afraid to ‘keep it real’. Regardless of whether the Royals are once again losing 90+ games in a season, they can’t say something negative, realistic about the Royals.

It’s maddening!

David

by david.lowe on Oct 10, 2010 8:54 PM EDT reply actions  

This probably has something to do with them being paid by the Royals

And since I picture Lefebvre as the ultimate brown noser, and Fransisco Blanco as the eternal Royal… I doubt they ever do anything to bad mouth the organization.

broken sun clocks a dog's ass every twice and again --- Crooow

by averagegatsby on Oct 10, 2010 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

its not just that

they are trying to push royals baseball as something we should watch

I dont mind if they arent super critical of the royals, but the twins stuff annoys me

by Freneau on Oct 11, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s subtle, but Denny Matthews will really rip a player sometimes. You kind of have to listen to him a lot though to realize when he’s coming down on a guy.

by sfeldkamp on Oct 11, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Heh

I was thinking about writing something very similar this week. Of course they shouldn’t fire him, at least not based on a bunch of playoff losses to superior teams. Random variation just hasn’t gone their way.

And, yes, Liriano is an ace.

by Matt Klaassen on Oct 11, 2010 12:38 AM EDT reply actions  

did the twins just get the fangraphs curse or something?

cameron really pushed hard this last month the idea that the Twins were the best team going…

we statheads cant win, even when pimping the enemy

by Freneau on Oct 11, 2010 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

heh

this amuses me.

R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9

by doublestix on Oct 11, 2010 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I guess you don't listen to the podcast

…let’s just say I’m trying hard not to be a smug jerk.

[insert line about how I’ve never succeeded in that endeavor before]

by Matt Klaassen on Oct 11, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

They have a pitching problem...

The Twins like pitch to contact guys…. I think Gardenhire projects the confidence needed in a good manager but whatever you think of him he isn’t the problem. I would fire the GM before Gardenhire…

by PREGNANT ROLLERSKATE on Oct 11, 2010 5:21 AM EDT reply actions  

Well he's obviously not getting fired

Pohlad has already said it is a “no brainer” he will get an extension.

Should they fire him? Of course not. Yeah they are terrible in the postseason, but it could be much, much worse. They could be the Royals, and have their seasons end after the first month. Gardenhire is basically Bobby Cox – his teams win consistently in the regular season, and fall apart in a week or two during this postseason. However, that week or two of disappointment does not supersede six months of winning baseball.

by deezle on Oct 11, 2010 8:07 AM EDT reply actions  

I will always automatically rec a post that includes the word "abhor."

Having said that, Liriano is definately an ace, but without Morneau that lineup does nothing for me. They can’t protect Mauer IMO.

Please God if you're listening, don't let Dayton Moore sign Francouer!

by mitchfreakingmaier! on Oct 11, 2010 9:37 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, those poor Twins who somehow manage to win

wit only the best position player in the AL (Mauer), Morneau hitting like Barry Bonds this year whe he was healthy, Jim Thome hitting l ike it was 1999, and Liriano channeling Johan circa 2004

by Matt Klaassen on Oct 11, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

you're overlooking what Nicky Punto brings to the table

and Delmon’s breakout year in which he has a .333 obp

by Freneau on Oct 11, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

The whole Gardenhire thing has put me in a weird position

of pointing out that the Twins are probably winning so much because (besides playing the AL Central, a nice combinations of teams with lower payrolls and those who can’t get out of their own way), you know, they actually have some really good players.

Sorry to bring this up again, but Nick Punto is actually a pretty decent player. Can’t hit at all, but he’s a whiz with the glove. Put up 1.4 WAR this season (not a fluke — put up 1.3 last year and 2.5 in 2008). Punto got about half a season of playing time, and was more valuable than every Royals position player than Butler, DDJ, and Mike Aviles. Yes, he slightly outdid Wilson “3/9” Betemit.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Oct 11, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know what WAR is

I’m talking about productive outs and hustle

by Freneau on Oct 11, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Since I Only

See them play the Royals, I tend to think guys like Span, Kubel, Cuddyer, Young etc. are better than they are. Span’s .331 OBP leading off is hardly ideal, and Kubel and Cuddyer both fell off this year, putting up lines that resemble Mark Teahen in his Royals days. Thome was a huge addition, but they still missed Morneau badly.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Oct 11, 2010 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't Forget About

Pavano’s mustache.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Oct 11, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is exactly what I meant above.

I tend to think Kubel and Cuddyer are complete studs based on what they do to us, but it just kinda seems to me like they totally suck in the playoffs. I have always struggled with Thome too. He seems like the quietest homerun king ever. I can’t explain it either.

Please God if you're listening, don't let Dayton Moore sign Francouer!

by mitchfreakingmaier! on Oct 11, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking Of Mitch

Freaking Maier, he put up a better /// line than Span did last year, but it seems like we can never retire Span.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Oct 11, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jokes aside, the Twins' world has changed a little bit

While the Twins have a long way to go before being confused with the Rays or A’s, the Twins front office actually hired a statistical analyst last year and three of the team’s major offseason moves — signing Thome, Hudson, and Pavano (who was re-signed) — reflect some sabermetric input.

It probably will not trickle down to Gardy anytime soon, but if he starts batting the backup catcher third on Mauer’s off days again, maybe someone will notice.

by Gopherballs on Oct 11, 2010 2:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Well

On the one hand, it’s hard to argue to fire Gardy because managers make so little difference in wins and losses.

On the other hand, there’s FIRE G

And Money Man Mauer why are you not hitting?
Busy counting counting your money!

by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Oct 11, 2010 11:22 PM EDT reply actions  

NO Way.

Ron Gardenhire is a great manager. He has the Twins in contention almost every year. If I remember correctly that team was up for retraction. What have they done since? Win. No Championships, but they have won a heck of alot more than our beloved Kansas City Royals.

by Jiminkc1 on Oct 17, 2010 11:04 PM EDT reply actions  

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