Who Was the Real "Get" From the DeJesus Trade: Vin Mazzaro or Justin Marks?
by Freneau on Nov 12, 2010 5:00 AM EST
in Kansas City Royals News
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PrintI'm on record as not being a fan of the DeJesus trade. I don't understand the timing and I don't think Moore got a great return back for DeJesus. I don't think Moore ever thought DeJesus was really worth a damn, and I can imagine that at some level he had to have been surprised when teams appeared to be interested in him. Weren't they really interested in Rick/Dick Ankiel?
Greg Schaum's insight into the trade all but confirms that what many of us fear about how Moore makes decisions is true. Year after year, it's really always the same: he builds a roster like he's casting a movie. Guys have to look the part, and the lineup is always being pulled to some ideal of what a "baseball team" from an uninteresting 1980s movie would look like. How guys act is also important. You've gotta be leader, you've gotta be a badass. You've gotta act like a ballplayer.
But alas, the trade has happened. DeJesus is an Athletic. Moore is still in charge. Everything is what it is.
Over the last day there's been significant discussion about how good Vin Mazzaro is. For all the benefit that a catch-all value stat like WAR provides, in a way it is a distorting stat. The fact is, there's a huge difference between a 1.5 and a 2.5 WAR player. When we talk about a guy's future it's easy to be unclear or push the numbers 0.5 in whatever direction we want. Nevertheless, there's really no one out there that's saying, "Mazzaro's going to be good, just you wait. He's going to be one of the best pitchers on the team." No one. No, Mazzaro's value is nearly entirely that he's cheap, with a dash of "he's young and you never know" thrown in. He's cheap and probably isn't unbearably bad to watch. Cool. I'll order my shersey tonight.
I wonder how important Justin Marks is to this deal. Marks is a young left-hander (which means he's on chance 2 of 35 in his career) who had a career of some prominence at Louisville. He hasn't really pitched superbly in the minors, but he was drafted in the 3rd round. This, at the very least, means that Oakland kinda sorta thought highly of him not too long ago. I haven't heard anything of this ilk, but it's highly possible that the A's player development people were executing a specific plan with Marks (pitch selection, mechanics, etc) that may have distorted his numbers. Who knows? He certainly didn't show up as a polished college pitcher and immediately dominate the low minors, which is what would have been expected.
Do you view Marks as a throw in? Is he more than a throw in but less than something more? Is this trade really about just getting Mazzaro's adequacy for a low price? Today is November 12, and I demand your thoughts on this matter.
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will, i think you and i are of the same mind on this
although i am a little more optimistic about the deal…i think mazzaro will be a decent pitcher and we save a big chunk of cash…as far as marks, who knows? he sounds intriguing, but really i guess we’ll see.
this is not meant to defend DM or bash him, but this is the same guy that just a few months ago made some allegedly pretty decent trades…he’s also the same guy that traded nunez for jacobs, so my guess is that the overall return we got for dejesus isn’t ridiculously bad, but it is possible (not a certainty by any means) we could have done better later in the year.
i liked dejesus and i am sad that he never got a chance to be a part of a winning team here. i wish him nothing but the best.
BOOM YOSTED!
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Nov 12, 2010 8:21 AM EST reply actions
Marks
If I’m valuing the As package, I’d first assume a total of 3.0 WAR from Mazzaro over three years prior to arbitration. I think he is basically a lock for that modest return with the possibility (say 25 percent) of as much as 6.0 WAR over the same period (and if he dings that then he’s worth mutliple arb years).
For Marks, here’s how I see it:
10 percent chance of a 2.5 WAR/year starting pitcher
20 percent of a 1.0 WAR/year starting pitcher (e.g., Mazzaro)
30 percent of a 1.0 WAR/year relief pitcher
50 percent chance of nothing
Without figuring in any discount value, then, his value is something like a quarter of Mazzaro’s. So not a total throw in but definitely the minor part of the deal.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 12, 2010 8:40 AM EST reply actions
Make that 25 percent chance of a 1.0 WAR relief pitcher
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 12, 2010 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
At least he's giving 105% to his career
"This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."
Contributor at Kings of Kauffman
by MinnesotaRoyal on Nov 12, 2010 8:42 AM EST up reply actions
I am an idiot. I cannot even make the correction right.
Make it 5 percent of a 2.5 WAR guy.
Need Starbucks. Now.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 12, 2010 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
25% that he's a 1 WAR relief pitcher over 3 years?
Or in a single year?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
Over three years; in other words a total contribution of 3 wins during his pre-arb career.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 12, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
So .3 WAR per year if he moves to relief?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
I really think they like Mazzaro
That’s the impression I’m getting from them, so I would guess he’s the centerpiece. If I had to pick one, I’m not sure that I could. Sort of like Aaron Crow, Marks could have more potential than was statistically apparent in his first season, but I really don’t know enough about the guy to say for sure. I can’t really pick a centerpiece, but that’s mostly because I just can’t clearly see higher potential between the two. Just as confused as I was when I heard about the trade.
"This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."
Contributor at Kings of Kauffman
Crow obviously has more upside, but I think u r just going w/...
bad 1st yr of pro ball…. if that is the case A) Crow was in AA most the yr & Marks was in low A ball….B) Crow had a 18mth layoff & Marks went right from the CS (i believe)…
"As a Karate expert, I will not talk about any of you." Jimmy McMillan
by PREGNANT ROLLERSKATE on Nov 12, 2010 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
Right
Marks had shoulder surgery after just one game in Arizona in 2009, though, so this season was almost like his first season. They both had a sort of stutter start, then. Just basically saying that there might be more there than is immediately obvious when you see his stats. But, that could be completely wrong.
"This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."
Contributor at Kings of Kauffman
by MinnesotaRoyal on Nov 12, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
I just found out that he had a shoulder surgery & that isn't good...
I feel worse now…TJ surgery I comfortable w/ but Shoulders are scary…
"As a Karate expert, I will not talk about any of you." Jimmy McMillan
by PREGNANT ROLLERSKATE on Nov 12, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
It also takes about a year to recover
from most shoulder injuries, so this year could have just been a building arm strength year.
by Terry L. Kelly on Nov 16, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Good Trade
I have read alot of bashing of the trade, and a little about how it was an “equal” trade. The Royals may have won this trade. Hand injuries are goofy, so he might have come back and had a mediocre year. Then what do you get for him?
To the people that think the Royals could have gotten more. Name the players they could have received in a trade? They may have rushed it, but I don’t think they were getting anything better from anyone else. DDj is what he is, an above avg defender in all outfield spots and an avg hitter.
by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 12, 2010 9:03 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Arb...Type A or B FA...I trust DM to draft more the trade...
& yes I’d take 100% of the risk envolved!
"As a Karate expert, I will not talk about any of you." Jimmy McMillan
by PREGNANT ROLLERSKATE on Nov 12, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
Type B maybe, not Type A
They are looking to fill the pipe line for 2012, not 2016. So the draft route doesn’t work as well here. Are you saying a compensatory pick in this years draft is better than the two guys we got? It may be better in 2016-17, but not for 2012.
by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 12, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
There has always been somewhat irrational love for Dejesus, but I think that has to do with us not having much else talentwise. He’s a fine player, but losing one year of him when we aren’t going anywhere anyway? I’m ok with this deal.
"2010: The year Mizzou gets over the hump. The year the Chiefs show the NFL that they're back. And the year Dayton Moore signs some washed up has been or never was to return us to the glory of the Royals not losing 100 in 2011."
by royaldaddy on Nov 12, 2010 10:56 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
You're misread the reason most people are upset.
I’m fine that he’s gone. Just far from convinced this is the best return that DDJ could bring.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
+1.....
"As a Karate expert, I will not talk about any of you." Jimmy McMillan
by PREGNANT ROLLERSKATE on Nov 12, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
What else could they have gotten?
DDj isn’t anything special. Can you name a team and the names they were willing to give up?
by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 12, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
Nobody can know that
Reds and Braves are 2 teams off the top of my head who could use an OF. Both have a variety of trade pieces, Braves primarily pitching though.
Can you imagine the rxn...
…of the Royals blogosphere if DDJ had been traded to Atlanta? Oh my goodness—-the internets would’ve exploded. So no, Atlanta could not have been a trading partner for PR purposes, if nothing else. – TL
"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.
Maybe nothing better
but a similar package was going to be around.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
Why not wait until the top 2 outfielders were gone?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
I agree with that thinking
Maybe Oakland said “this deal expires ______” and DM pulled the trigger. We don’t know, and it’s just guessing.
Plus, it really is speculation anyone else was offering similar. Boston was interested but wouldn’t offer the pieces the Royals wanted.
That's exactly my point
We’re not talking about a guy that’s gonna be a centerpiece of any team but ours. He’s a decent player, but some Royals fans think this guy is Ted Williams or something. It’s because we don’t have any great standout players. A lot of people are WAY overvaluing DDJ.
"2010: The year Mizzou gets over the hump. The year the Chiefs show the NFL that they're back. And the year Dayton Moore signs some washed up has been or never was to return us to the glory of the Royals not losing 100 in 2011."
DDJ isn't great, but a season of him, plus the exclusive rights to negotiate a contract extension is worth more than those two schlubs
A meh #4 SP and an unexciting, low-ceiling prospect? Moore gave DDJ away.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Nov 13, 2010 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree
Dejesus is nothing special. David Lough will replace him this year. DDj will be 32 to start the season, so why would they want to give him another contract anyways?
by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 13, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It's no use arguing with...
…NY Royal. If GMDM had just made the best trade in the history of the game, NYRoyal would be talking about how GMDM had stolen his sister’s first-born child. – TL
"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.
that's an unfair assessment
NY used to be a strident defender of Moore. (Well, perhaps not strident, but certainly more willing to give Moore the benefit of the doubt.)
If anything, this proves NY is willing/able to change his opinion when new evidence is presented, which shows intellectual integrity.
Of course, it doesn’t hurt that he’s 100% correct on DDJ being given away. As others have posted, the problem isn’t that DeJesus is no longer with the team, but that the return was much lower than his perceived/actual value.
batter nine you sucky
And, for what it's worth, I liked the Teahen trade last offseason
I thought Moore got about as much for Teahen as he possibly could. So I give Moore credit where credit is due. He just hasn’t done much right, especially over the last 2-3 years.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Nov 15, 2010 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
My Biggest Objection
To this trade is the timing. What’s the rush? M & M were not going anywhere, and if they did, so what? DDJ’s value was not going to diminish, and there likely were better deals to be had. If this trade had been made in February, I would have figured he had exhausted the possibilities and settled for pretty near equal value, but to take the first relatively equal value deal that comes along seems, if not stupid, maybe naive at best.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 15, 2010 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
For me, Mazzaro appears like he could be a valuable pitcher. He could also be SOS part deux.
Mazzaro has had stretches where he’s commanded his sinker and when he does that he’s pretty good. If he can command it over the long haul he could be a helpful guy for the next 5 years.
Marks,on the other hand, is really interesting to me. Like Crow, he has a knockout two pitch combo. Also like Crow, he’ll be a reliever unless he can learn to throw his 3rd and 4th pitches for strikes. A downside of a LHRP (according to BA) makes it seem like Marks was very, very much a part of this deal.
Ask me to choose between the two? I’m going Mazzarro. He’s put it all together before at the ML level and I like the odds of him being a good pitcher for us for 3+ years.
I don't think Marks is a throw in anymore than Will Smith was
I’m overly optimistic on Will Smith, but he did have some stellar performances this year once in KC’s system. I’m basically hoping that Marks looks as good as Smith for the Royals. Whether either of them have to the stuff to succeed in the MLB… well I guess we’ll get a better idea when they hit NWA.
With Smith/SOS I think Smith will be the one who ends up making that deal worthwhile. I’m not sure the same is true with Marks/Mazzaro because Mazzaro should be better than SOS. (If not, then yuck.)
I don’t know. I don’t hate the deal. I think DM could’ve done better but I’m not ready to doubt him on young pitchers. His track record in that regard has been solid.
by jsolo on Nov 12, 2010 9:12 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Just to clarify
I think Marks has more upside as Smith, just saying I hope he looks as good as Smith did when he came over to KC. He was dominating games for awhile there.
Solid? Solid? Unbelievable.
When DM got here 4 years ago, we were a last place team. 4 years later, after countless Dayton Moore trades, we’re in last place still.
The only track record Dayton Moore has is to lose more consistently than any other team in baseball.
Sickening.
"In the final analysis, the only opinion that really matters to all of us, is our own." ~TheK-Man~
Marks
Interesting thing: the guy’s overall numbers were not that good, yet he got a promotion. Strikeout numbers are good. Moreover, those that do a month-by-month breakdown show a clear progression of his pitching — I think Rosenthal did this comparison at some point. When viewed in that light, the numbers begin to look better. Tough to say if he will succeed, but the stats really are not as bad as they look on the surface.
As for Mazzaro, I think the Royals gambled because they saw something more than what his statistics suggest (which might be trouble). The James projections have him as a low 4s pitcher, though that is probably generous. But I bet the Royals probably see that pitcher…
Mayo said...
Marks had a “3.18 ERA in July (in five July starts, he struck out 41 and walked just 10 while holding hitters to a .225 average) to earn a promotion up to the California League.”
Not as dominating as we might like, but the SO/BB ratio was awfully nice.
For a guy as far down the system as Marks, even with good numbers, you’ve got to figure in at least a 50 percent chance he never makes to the big leagues at all. Sure he has #3 upside—but that’s a pretty small percentage chance at this point in time.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 12, 2010 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
Anyone know when and what exactly what was Mark's college injury?
I read arm everywhere, but that is too vague for a pitcher.
- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …
The only thing I've found was that it was a shoulder injury.
But that was after 1 game at the rookie level in 2009. Haven’t seen anything about a college injury.
"This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."
Contributor at Kings of Kauffman
by MinnesotaRoyal on Nov 12, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
I miss read Schaum's article and thought it happened in college.
Shoulder injuries aren’t good. This pickup is all on the scouts saying he is healed.
- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …
by Jeff Zimmerman on Nov 12, 2010 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
that doesn't make me feel any better....
"As a Karate expert, I will not talk about any of you." Jimmy McMillan
by PREGNANT ROLLERSKATE on Nov 12, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
Can u say MARK TEAHEN & ALBERTO CALLASPO trade combined...
When I 1st saw this trade I though we didn’t get anymore for DDJ than we did for Callaspo, why… after reading all the post on this trade I could several others had commented on the similarities of return between the 2 trades, but after further review there is a strong Mark Teahen component to the DDJ trade…
More or less we traded Teahen & DDJ for the same reason & DM crapped his pants in the process…
Teahen & DDJ:
- $ dump…
- Panic = can’t get stuck w/ the player so have to trade no matter what…
- 1st trade of the season…
- Is that all the 2 players could bring in return…
- Getz = Mazzaro…
Now the comparison to Bert should be obvious w/ bringing in return a serviceable(?) MLB ready RHSP & a hopeful LHSP…
I acknowledged the comparisons aren’t exact so plz don’t bother replying w/ the obvious differences… thx
"As a Karate expert, I will not talk about any of you." Jimmy McMillan
by PREGNANT ROLLERSKATE on Nov 12, 2010 10:35 AM EST reply actions
*Above I meant*......"I noticed several others had commented on the similarities"...
"As a Karate expert, I will not talk about any of you." Jimmy McMillan
by PREGNANT ROLLERSKATE on Nov 12, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
fyi, the comparisons you are making are not exact
"Shot by my own men."
by StonewallPDS on Nov 12, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
Er, Teahen was around replacement level last year.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 12, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
unfortunately, if appears
that our worst fears come true. The trade was made to make room for Frenchie, and probably to add an arm to replace Greinke after his upcoming trade.
Take out the Frenchie part and I don’t mind this trade—but that may just be because I am not a fan of DDJ’s shit-eating grin.
"Shot by my own men."
He's a pot head...
"As a Karate expert, I will not talk about any of you." Jimmy McMillan
by PREGNANT ROLLERSKATE on Nov 12, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
Like These Guys?
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 12, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Are We Not Vin?
"We had opportunities when we smoked balls," manager Ned Yost said.
by Diggity Dawg on Nov 12, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Why not trade DDJ
for 3 guys like Marks (in other words, higher upside with perhaps less certainty than Mazzaro)?
To me, in the Royals situation, trying to hit the lottery with 3 tickets makes more sense than getting the predictible #4 or #5 SP in Mazzaro and only 1 lottery ticket.
Another way to look at this – ONCE AGAIN, the minor league system’s lack of depth causes a poor decision by Moore. What do I mean by this? Well, ask yourself this question:
Shouldn’t the system already have a Mazzaro in AAA, just waiting for a chance? And by that I mean a guy who is good enough, but not “ace” potential like Montgomery or Lamb.
Now, if you’re gonna punt 2011, go ahead a PUNT! Why worry about the back end of the SP rotation when you can get some lottery tickets that might give you an additional 10% chance of finding another front of the rotation guy for the coming contending years in 2012-2016?
"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009
"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876
What?
the minor league system’s lack of depth causes a poor decision by Moore
This is arguably the deepest in the major leagues
Shouldn’t the system already have a Mazzaro in AAA, just waiting for a chance? And by that I mean a guy who is good enough, but not "ace" potential like Montgomery or Lamb.
Teaford fits that bill, plus several other AA pitchers that could be moved to the majors
AAA is typically the Lerew/Chen/Bullington type pitchers that are AAAA pitchers you can call up any time you want
One of the stated reasons for acquiring Mazzaro was to ensure no one caved
and brought up Montgomery/Lamb/Duffy/Dwyer too early, thereby jeopardizing their long term development.
With that in mind, then why not simply go with Teaford and KEEP DDJ, at least until the July deadline, in hopes of getting a better deal?
I guess I didn’t express my opinion very well. While I certainly agree that the minor league system is the best in the game, one could still argue that it is still far enough away that if a GM decides that winning 70 games in 2011 instead of say, 67 is important, he ends up trading for a mediocre starting pitcher because he doesn’t have any ML ready replacement level starting pitchers available to use immediately.
"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009
"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876
I see what you're saying
I guess we don’t KNOW how Teaford will perform, and we at least know Mazzaro will be average (or a little below). I think we will see Teaford as well this year at some point.
I think the goal is to have the replacement level pitchers in place in the future. Again we are about to see Moore’s first wave of major talent. I think once they are up here, we should see several Mazzaro/SOS type pitchers in the system, guys who take longer to develop. Perhaps even guys like Marks or Smith (that we recently traded for).
Expecting DM to have these kind of pitchers already in the system is kind of a catch 22. These are pitchers that he would have had to A) draft or B) trade for. Now that we have been trading for this kind of pitcher once we finally have some major league assets, people are upset that we don’t already have these pitchers in the system.
Sorry if I’m not making sense. I realize I rambled a bit.
Rushing Prospects
I don’t want to see them rushed, but I think they are getting pretty close. Moustakas, Hosmer, Duffy, Monty, and a few others should probably start in AAA. So they will just be a quick phone call away. I think Moustakas and Teaford will get a long look in Spring Training, although with this being their “breakout” years in the minors they might not be ready quite yet.
by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 12, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Andrew Miller
was top 3 pitcher in college at North Carolina. He was #1 draft choice of Tigers, but didn’t produce after being rushed to bigs. Marlins saw potential and got him in Cabrera trade. Again, he was rushed to majors where wildness, injuries, and total confusion resulted over past 2 years. The Red Sox just traded for Miller giving up a bag of used bats for a former top prospect. Point is be careful with young arms. This is at least one reason why Mazzaro was a good pickup. He is major league ready and proven.
Wow,you really expect the run environment to balloon so much in 2011 that Mazzaro will be close to average?
I guess at least we “know” how he will pitch…
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 12, 2010 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
What I meant is that Mazzaro is less of a question mark than Teaford
And by “average” I mean average for a 4th/5th starter. I don’t think he’s some kind of savior.
Yeah, he's a 4th/5th starter, and that is decidedly not average
It is below average and not particularly valuable.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Nov 13, 2010 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
Was that really a reason?
One of the stated reasons for acquiring Mazzaro was to ensure no one caved
and brought up Montgomery/Lamb/Duffy/Dwyer too early, thereby jeopardizing their long term development.
Because if this was something Moore stated, it’s one of the dumbest things he’s ever done. Ultimately, he decides who gets promoted, so if true, he traded for a shlub to ensure he doesn’t make a mistake.
This is basically an admission that he can’t control himself.
batter nine you sucky
I would imagine it's less about self control and more about resources.
Let me say first that I don’t like the trade. But this is how I see it. Moore knows he’s not keeping DDJ and that he needs to bring in at least one starter because he has no one to fill the rotation spots except his young guys. Thus, it’s not about whether or not he can keep himself from rushing an arm, but whether his resources allow him to not do so.
That Is My
Most generous interpretation of the situation. I have others.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 15, 2010 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
Marks from Sickels
21) Justin Marks, LHP, Grade C+: 4.91 ERA with 129/48 K/BB in 125 innings between Kane County and Stockton, 124 hits. The ERA is deceptive; his K/BB and K/IP marks are strong. Sleeper for next year.
by 306008 on Nov 12, 2010 12:21 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I like this trade more now than I did origionally
Marks is not a throw-in. Mazzaro is not a throw-in. The Royals needed a pitcher at the MLB level for this year. And Marks is a guy that had good stats in a fairly decent league. He helps our pitching pipeline. I imagine he starts at Wilmington.
I like the trade too
If you can put Marks with Smith, Crow, Sample, and Baumann, maybe they can be a big part of the 2nd wave in 2013-14. Right?
by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 12, 2010 1:16 PM EST reply actions
Gun to GMDM's head, "drop either Mazzaro or Marks from the system", who does he drop?
My guess is Marks. Though by a slim margin.
Yes Marks has upside, and he has the all-important "he shows moxie on the mound", per Schaum. But, Mazz gives GMDM roster flexibility for 2011, ’12, and even ’13. Marks is an unknown commodity – a talented one – but not nearly as important.
The only people who really know where [the edge] is are the ones who have gone over it.
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 12, 2010 1:38 PM EST reply actions
Hand In The
Bush is a good start.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 12, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mazzaro was not in the A's plans at all
He projected likely to be 6 or 7th in their SP depth chart. Even then, IMO they liked Outman, Ross better. And Clay Mortensen was probably their best AAA SP most of the season and Travis Banwart was probably their most consistent AAA SP towards the end. Mazzaro lost his job in september to 30 yr old bobby cramer, who actually pitched a game in KC
Marks came into milb known a for a polished approach. Yet he struggled with groin injuries. He got lit up pretty hard in the low scoring MWL. And was actually out pitched by 18/19 yr old LHP Ian Krol who got promoted to High A cal league before him.
Both pitchers are cheap and have some upside, but they were both pushed back in the A’s who were very deep in pitchers
Right on everything but Mort.
Mort=AAAA. Nothing more, nothing less.
There wasn't a good "get" in this trade
A below average SP and an unexciting, low-ceiling prospect.
The immoderate moderator
Marks injury
I am told he dealt with a nagging groin injury
this injury affected his push off and came and went all season…
Mazzaro
We needed a replacement for Banny and competition for Davies. Mazzaro is the replacement for Banny. He’s yung and has improved. He’s been more consistant than Hochevar and Greinke. Will he ever be a Greinke? No. Marks is young with potential. Maybe, he will. Maybe, he won’t. I think he is more of the throw in. But with Dejesus, I wouldn’t be happy with one player in return. So i think both guys were what KC wanted and there was no throw -in guy unless one of them fails.
by Totally confused on Nov 12, 2010 8:38 PM EST reply actions
Mazzaro2
With the future coming soon, will he be relivent after 2011? If Greinke keeps talking, they will trade him and Mazzaro will still be here beyond 2012. He may have just been short term Starter until the future Starters come up. That would make Marks the primary guy in the trade.
by Totally confused on Nov 12, 2010 8:43 PM EST reply actions
I doubt we'll have even four of the Royals current prospects in the rotation in 2012 or 2013
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Nov 13, 2010 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
Really?
You don’t think four out of Monty, Dwyer, Duffy, Lamb, Crow, Smith, Teaford, Sample, Melville, Marks, Santiago, Caldera, and Baumann will be in KC by 2013? It might not be necessary if Greinke resigns or if Hochevar, Mazzaro, Davies and O’Sullivan pan out. But I have no doubt that 2 of the big 4 will be starting in KC to start the 2012 season.
by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 13, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
You don’t think four out of Monty, Dwyer, Duffy, Lamb, Crow, Smith, Teaford, Sample, Melville, Marks, Santiago, Caldera, and Baumann will be in KC by 2013?
It is possible that four of them will be in KC by 2013. No, I don’t think four of them will be good enough to be MLB SP’s by 2013.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Nov 13, 2010 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
They might not be in the rotation but, I don’t see any reason why they couldn’t be. There will be FA signings and trades that probably hold them back, but I see those pitchers as possible options for the rotation by the start of 2013.
by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 13, 2010 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
Could? Yes. Likely? No
You are thinking that the only real reason they might not be in the rotation then is if FA signings are blocking them. You’re ignoring the fact that the huge majority of pitching prospects fail. Even top 100 prospects. Even top 50 prospects. Most of them should fail.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Nov 13, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
DeJesus Trade
Mazzaro is the centerpiece……he was very erratic last season but showed signs of being an above average pitcher when he matures.Dejesus is an average ballplayer at best.He was an atrocious base stealer considering his supposed speed.
I think the biggest get in DM's mind from this trade is..
Jeff Francoeur
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Nov 14, 2010 1:08 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
+1
The only people who really know where [the edge] is are the ones who have gone over it.
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 15, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Digging Deep Into
The links, I found this gem in the comments on a Boston blog:
Robert Says:
November 12th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
I am for taking a flyer on a player such as Eric Bedard or Justin Dusrocher, so so long as you are willing to pay market value for quality free agents when needed. Players such as Werth,Buck,Dunn,Downs and Saito. Dunn really makes the most sense at 1st,being available now,only 31,and a great hitter.Also,cheaper then next years bunch,none of whom the Sox would ever pay for.Don’t want to be greedy,but how about Olivo to platoon with Buck. You would get 35 homers from the cather position.Last thing needed would be a right handed bat to platoon with Ortiz…..Glaus? Can also back up at 3rd and 1st.
Just the spelling of Duchscherer was good enough, but this guy wants our RHB catching platoon from 2009, too. Step aside, Theo.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
I could take minor league rosters and play pin the tail on the donkey (pitchers) and
come up with far better pitching potential for this team. Dayton Moore is useless as a GM.
Regrettably, he has been set the bar for the Royals starting rotation.
And that bar is:
10 wins vs. 17 losses with a 4.72 era, and a strikeout to walks ration of 138 to 89.
Dayton Moore is the devil of Major League Baseball, and he works for the Kansas City Royals.
His job is to bring restlessness, irritability, discontent, and continued suffering to an already suffering fan base, and this move is the first of many strokes of genius to come.
Congratulations Lucifer, you’ve done it again.
But you should be proud to have made Mr. Glass happy now with DeJesus’s projected salary stuffing his already crammed with cash pockets.
Dayton Moore is nothing more than the official Glass family shill.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shill
Has anyone scanned the roster lately? It’s so filled with risk and unknowns and proven mediocrity, that it could easily become the worst team ever fielded inside of a Kansas City ballpark. And Dayton is smiling, because he’s crammed all the salary he could cut and deposited it into the Glass family bank.
It’s just so sickening to watch.
How people can buy in to his grotesque and pathetic lies and false hopes that he loves to perpetrate on the public is totally beyond the realm of reasonable thinking.
This man is baseball wickedness, personifited.
"In the final analysis, the only opinion that really matters to all of us, is our own." ~TheK-Man~
Or should I say, Dayton Moore, has become ...
the personification of all basesball evils.
"In the final analysis, the only opinion that really matters to all of us, is our own." ~TheK-Man~
If I ever had a chance to meet him....I'd definitely give him the Todd Haley
handshake.
"In the final analysis, the only opinion that really matters to all of us, is our own." ~TheK-Man~
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