Jeff Francoeur Compares Self To John Smoltz and Chipper Jones
by Freneau on Dec 14, 2010 12:00 PM EST
in Kansas City Royals News
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PrintMaybe I'm just over-sensitive. Maybe I should have just never read the typical "player is happy to join team" story.
Look, Francoeur isn't a good baseball player. We've been all over that and many of you are sick of talking about it. But this rant is only partially about that. We're still getting the "he's going to lead" garbage? I know Dayton has to say something about the signing. But lauding his abilities as a player would make as much sense. It's terrifying that Moore is not only bad an evaluating baseball players, he's bad at identifying people more generally.
I've asked it jokily and now I'll ask it seriously: what exactly is he going to teach? His career has been an abject failure. He, without qualification, has not lived up to expectations. He has not been a winner. He has not handled failure well. He has not handled benchings well. What has he done well? If anything, he's pretty clearly a bad example for young players. His example says precisely this, "live off the hype as long as you can, never change, and wait for an old scout to sign you years later."
And this... this... is just insulting.
Yea, John Smoltz and Chipper Jones. Just like you, Jeff.
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[insert Hooters joke here]
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 14, 2010 12:08 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Another Quote
When you get there, it’s so much fun that you want to get back. I remember during the World Series hearing guys like Cal Ripken saying, ‘I never got to play in a World Series,’ and he played for 18 or 19 years…I was very humbled by the opportunity.
My guess is that he got a couple of old guys confused.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Dec 14, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
for me, the more annoying thing is him talking about it like he was a great part
of what Texas accomplished
again, just playing devil's advocate
but where does he imply that?
"Hey, maybe he really does like everyone. But if you like everyone, do you actually like anyone?" - big matt
basically by simply talking about it at all
if i’m a bench player, picked up late, with basically 0 role on a WS team, I’m pretty much saying nothing more than “it was fun to be there for the ride”
I think that's pretty much what he's saying.
“When you get there, it’s so much fun that you want to get back.”
“…humbled by the opportunity.”
"Hey, maybe he really does like everyone. But if you like everyone, do you actually like anyone?" - big matt
Er, that’s basically what he said:
It was fun. I’d like to back. It’s cool I got to do it when this old codger whose name I forgot never did.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Dec 14, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Have I missed who got moved off the 40-man to make room for these guys?
Weren’t we at 39 when they signed Frenchy, Melky and picked up Adcock?
Or do they have two buffer days to decide?
oh my god
if you take this waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of context, then yes, it’s stupid.
this is reaching. big time.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix
by doublestix on Dec 14, 2010 12:19 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Agreed
He did not say anything approaching “I’m as good as Smoltz and Jones.”
He did say something approaching “I was once young and a big prospect, and veterans helped me learn about the big leagues.”
"Hey, maybe he really does like everyone. But if you like everyone, do you actually like anyone?" - big matt
and who apparently sucked at mentoring elite young prospects like Jeff Franceour
Come on, you don’t need to be an all-star to be a good guy and help teammates adjust to MLB life. There was a time when several young Royals looked to utility player Joe McEwing as a mentor because he was friendly and he went about his job in a professional way.
I’m not going to say that friendliness is a $2.5M skill, but there’s no reason to blast Franceour for this quote. He’s only comparing himself to Smoltz and Jones in the sense that he’s saying, “Smoltz and Jones were kind and helpful to younger players. I hope to do the same.”
but the point is that Francour has repeatedly been called out for NOT going
about his job in a professional way
Which is not the case for either of these two HOF’ers. Francour implying that his “mentoring” could be similar to theirs is indicative of a disconnect between his perception of their attitudes compared to his own.
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 14, 2010 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
He has?
I know that their have been complaints about his talent, but have their been complaints about his work ethic?
The main complaint is that he is a lunkhead who won’t take instruction.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Dec 14, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
LEADER
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Dec 14, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
By definition
Leaders don’t need instruction…they just lead. It’s instinct.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Dec 14, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly. This is only something you see when you watch baseball games
everyday, at the park, and you're a scout, from the 60's, seeing plus hands, and plus leadership.
On a serious note; How does one measure plus leadership? Is it the check/check + system or a hybrid alpha numerical ranking?
Dr. Ausgiano schools me in the classroom and on the field of battle
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Dec 14, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
He's bitched and moaned any time he was sent to the minors or benched
Despite posting ~.650 OPS’s. He thinks he’s a GD All Star. I really wish Francoeur would go away.
by James Kannengieser on Dec 14, 2010 9:16 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
dude
Guys, this is the same person(Frenchie) who says OBP doesn’t matter because it’s not on the scoreboard….Who sulked and whined like a little bitch when he was sent to minors to work on his swing….Who think’s he’s the next coming of GOD for baseball, even though he SUCKS!!!!
yeah, he’s a douche
this is what i was referring to
they should have benched him in NY b/c he was hurt/playing poorly. When they reduced his playing time he whined, pouted, complained, etc. until they gave him normal playing time.
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 15, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
But would we get upset if Gil Meche said, "I'm hoping to help guys like Montgomery and Lamb adjust to the MLB"?
I mean, Meche underperformed throughout his career in Seattle and then after a brief stretch of being a very good player, lacked the awareness or discipline to step back and let his body heal before doing permanent damage. Is that the kind of instruction we want for our young players?
Any player with a good attitude can help in the clubhouse. Friendliness isn’t what you sign a player for, but it’s also not a reason to take shots at them.
The Frenchy contract is a $2.5M gamble on a player that hasn’t fulfilled his promise and likely never will. It might be a bad investment, but that’s all it is.
I agree with this. It's why I'm on Will's side about the "leadership" angle that IS going to be shoved down our throats until June.
but that’s all it is.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
Yeah, I think making fun of the "Leadership" stories is funny enough
Reading this quote about helping younger players as Francoeur claiming to be a HoF level player is a little ridiculous tho. Perspective.
I wouldn't get upset about it
but I’d also think it’s an equally stupid statement unless Gil has learned “mentoring by teleportation” from Kendall. Outside of a few weeks in spring training (and maybe a short September call-up), Meche is unlikely to be in KC at the same time as Montgomery and Lamb. Just like Francoeur probably won’t be around the same clubhouse for long with Moustakas, Hosmer, etc.
Ultimately, I’m not too upset about the Francoeur deal, either. But I’m getting really sick of this bullshit “leadership” angle from the Royals’ front office. I wish they would just leave it at, “We think Jeff has a chance to capitalize on his untapped potential, and thought signing him was a worthy gamble.” But I know GM-Speak would probably not allow such a frank statement.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Dec 14, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
But really, who cares what they call it. It’s a $2.5M gamble that Frenchy will hit well this year. Some people think that there’s no chance he’ll hit well and that the contract is an utter waste of $2.5. Others will think it’s a good risk-reward play. I don’t care much either way. I think Francoeur will likely be bad, but I’m glad that Moore’s at least taking his longshots will under-30 players this year.
I guess...
Francoeur will likely be bad, but I’m glad that Moore’s at least taking his longshots will under-30 players this year.
but what difference does Francoeur’s age make when he’s only on a one-year deal? There are basically three outcomes here:
1. He lights it up in the first half, and Moore ends up flipping him to a contender for a prospect at the deadline; or
2. He lights it up in the first half, and Moore doesn’t want to/can’t get a deal worked out this year, the mutual option is declined by Francoeur so he can explore his newfound value in the market; or
3. Most likely, he sucks as expected and Moore declines the Royals end of the option.
Still being young is not a “bonus” for a player who you only control for one-year. Moore might as well have tried to sign Jermaine Dye.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Dec 14, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Relative youth makes improvement more likely though.
Francoeur has established himself as being bad. However, a 26 year old Francoeur is more likely to exhibit improvement than a 34 year old Francoeur.
by WURoyal on Dec 14, 2010 6:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
True
If he really applies himself, takes instruction, and everything breaks just right, he might just be one of the worst 20 hitters in the league, rather than in the worst 5.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 14, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
This is my big issue with the deal; for these bounce back guys with no team control left there ought to be a team option, priced fairly for the player, in every single one (say a $5 million option for Francouer). That way the team is assured that they gain a benefit for taking the risk.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Dec 14, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
I care what they call it if they actually think it
and as often as they spout “leadership” for the reason they sign crappy players, I worry they might actually think it. I mean, on facebook the freaking headline of the article about the Frenchy signing is “Francoeur ready for leadership opportunity with young Royals team.”
I think there is value in having guys who are a good influence on other guys (was it David Riske who helped Greinke in the bullpen?), I’m just getting tired of getting only that and not good ballplayers.
I think Soren Petro kind of nailed it on his show today talking about how, nothing personal with this particular signing, and nothing wrong with it in theory, but after 20 years, he was sick of going to press conferences for guys who needed to redeem themselves in order to be signed by a real team later. As he put it, “I have no questions for that press conference anymore.” I’m just so sick of the same old same old same old story.
Maybe the hope of real change (i.e. the farm system) is too close now, so that it makes the crap at the ML level that much more unbearable. And every fear of it all going up in smoke AGAIN is manifesting itself as bitterness against every move. I don’t know. I just know I’m sick of the same shit.
I don't think Francoeur is talking about imparting baseball skills.
It’s more about work ethic, not getting caught up in the situation, adjusting to making millions of dollars and remaining focused, etc.
All the stuff a coach should do.
You can excel at those things and still fail because you’re not actually talented. That’s Jeff Francoeur, apparently.
You See Those
Guys in local music scenes all the time. They have all the right moves when they’re not on stage, talk a great game, but can’t play or sing to save their lives. It doesn’t necessarily make them bad people; delusional perhaps, but not bad.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 14, 2010 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
The difference is that Francouer has produced at the major league level in the past. It isn’t that he hasn’t the talent, more than likely—it is that he is a freaking lunkhead jock. A good natured lunkhead jock, but that’s his nature.
Him turning it around isn’t hoping for skills to develop…it’s a bet that looking down the precipice of career destruction snaps him out of it.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Dec 14, 2010 6:51 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know,
you’re basically saying that plate discipline isn’t a skill. I’m not sold on that.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
As An Everyday
Player for several years, he has yet to produce an OPS of .800. That’s not good for a COF, and his .792 season was years ago. As far as I know, he’s never had a significant injury; he’s just not very good.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 14, 2010 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
@@@So Am I@@@
Or so I've been told
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 15, 2010 3:44 AM EST up reply actions
Didn't he only produce in his first month?
i.e., before the pitchers figured out to throw the ball away from the plate? He never adjusted back.
Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!
But Will's primary question remains
What the hell is he going to teach all these “young guys”? First of all, as has been pointed out before, with the exception of spring training, Francoeur will be surrounded by players who are about his same age. Secondly, what experience is Frenchy going to draw upon to counsel the “young guys”? Unless it’s something along the lines of “don’t be a hardheaded dipshit like I was—be willing to adjust, don’t waste this opportunity”, then he’s poorly-qualified to “lead.”
by Sweep_the_Leg on Dec 14, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
@maybe he'll start thinking it's important@
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 15, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
If you guys could actually convince him to pay attention at the plate an not be afraid to take a walk, get his OBP up to around .350 or so, he’d be a decent ballplayer, get it up .375 an he might even be a legitimate star.
yes
"Hey, maybe he really does like everyone. But if you like everyone, do you actually like anyone?" - big matt
maybe I need to clarify
my only contention is that the quote at the end is taken out of context to make a point…..it’s fallacious
"Hey, maybe he really does like everyone. But if you like everyone, do you actually like anyone?" - big matt
But Francoeur being a great clubhouse leader for the young guys isn't?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Dec 14, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Will wrote: ...
…“Francoeur isn’t a good baseball player. We’ve been all over that and many of you are sick of talking about it.”
Yep. Sick…to…death. And the brought-here-to-provide-leadership-but-showing-involves-doing meme is also tired already.
Francoeur’s here. We don’t like. Too bad for us. Whatever. – TL
"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.
He does have a reputation as a hard worker.
But to no avail, which is not a good lesson to teach: work hard and you’ll still end up as a glorified platoon player.
I suppose we can hope that any negative attitude displayed can serve as an example of how NOT to act if you want your teammates to respect you. Maybe Mike Moustakas (who’s primed to be a Failcour himself) takes one look at Frenchy’s misanthropic smug “leadership” grin and slams him up against a locker.
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 14, 2010 1:11 PM EST reply actions
I can pitcure now
the squat, 5’11" Moustakas slamming the 6’5" 225 lb Francoeur (slimmer than last year) against a locker
C'mon guys - he has a lot in common with those guys...
1. They all have “o” in their last name
2. They all know Dayton Moore
3. They all have lived in Atlanta
4. They wear uniforms
Really, the similarities are endless
I once had hope...now I have Moore.
Francoeur compares self to Chris Farley
"I had about three chins," Francoeur jokes
From the same article.
Francoeur compares self to self
I don’t want to have a great year…
are you doubting Mt. Furankoa?
an eruption is coming for at least one month in April (provided we face lots of LHP during that time)
FIRE DAYTON MOORE and Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
Isn't this "leadership" the primary reason for employing coaches?
Surely an ex-ballplayer can be hired to instill the same values Frenchy will at much less than $2.5 million + a roster/lineup spot.
Obviously, you are not a golfer.
I definitely found the quote annoying
And I don’t think its out of bounds to glean from those quotes that he’s comparing himself to Chipper and Smoltz. I mean, that is pretty much precisely what he is doing. “They were the all-star veterans then, I’m the all-star veteran now.”
Also, aren’t there a bunch of guys on our roster older than him? I mean, why is he specifically going to be the guy the youngsters will look up to? He’s clearly assuming personal awesomeness here. If he had mentioned an old role player that would be one thing. He didn’t. He mentioned Jones and Smoltz.
I wouldn't say that
I feel like we are all repeating each other, but I felt like he was saying “They were all-star veterans and I was a highly thought of prospect, now I will emulate how they treated me”
It’s kind of like saying that a coach cannot be a good coach unless he was a HOF baseball player. How else would he know how to coach? He probably wasn’t as good at baseball as several players on the team, so they should know better because they are more talented.
Just because Francoeur is not an amazing baseball player doesn’t mean he doesn’t have any information to pass on to younger players. He’s just saying he was once in the shoes of our future prospects, and knows what it’s like to have a lot of expecatations heaped onto you at a very young age. He is simply stating two players that helped him out a lot when he was young, and in no way did he say that he thought he was just as good as those players.
Screw this guy
He’s saying that hopefully he can mentor the players who, immediately, project to be several tiers better than he is. Jeff Francouer relying on referent power to lead while posting a .735 career OPS. (For those who have been to ‘corporate’ for ‘leadership’ training). Sweet.
Seriously, what is this guy going to teach, how to blow a major league career after you make the cover of SI? What are Moose or Hosmer et al. going to glean from this guy? How to stare crazy and suck at baseball?
Does a drill sergeant inspire recruits by sitting on his ass all day eating Twinkies? No, he goes and runs 3 miles in 20 minutes while smoking a pack of Marlboro Reds.
This season might be on a short leash for me guys. Might have to check out, say, May 15th. Again.
Raising hell
If you want to raise some serious hell, someone should head over to Talking Chop an link to this thread….I’d do it, but I banned because of my abbrasive personality and inablity to listen to the mods… LOL oh well
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