Remembering Brian Bannister: I Should Have Loved Him More
I never appreciated Brian Bannister enough.
I'm essentially a joyless contrarian bastard and for that reason, I never really rode the wave of Brian Bannister love that crested in 2008-09. And really, that was the wrong response.
Brian Bannister posted a 3.87 ERA in 2007, his first season with the Royals. It wasn't quite a full season's worth of work, but it wasn't five starts either. Banny pitched 165 innings that season, making 27 starts. 2007... it seems so long ago. That was the first full season of the Moore Era, and we were all evaluating the new boss for the first time. That was the magical first Gil Meche campaign, the year that Kyle Davies arrived, the year Soria arrived, the year that the bullpen was somewhat competent for the first time since 2003... say what you will about Moore, he knows pitching.
So before all the saber-stuff with Banny started, that was the meme that he was attached to. Dayton Moore and his guys have an eye for pitchers.
So Brian Bannister only struck out 4.2 batters per nine in 2007. Thanks to a .262 BABIP, amongst other things, Banny was able to not only survive but thrive. And, well, this was pointed out. The argument was essentially a sabermetric one, but it was one that mirrored an old-school way of thinking. You can say that eventually a guy's luck on balls in play won't last, or you can say that a guy without stuff will eventually get hit hard. In the end, it's just different ways of describing the same thing.
Now, the amazing thing is, Banny talked about this, and talked about it from the saber perspective. Because I'm a contrarian bastard, who has to always go against the grain, it was legitimately remarkable how Banny handled it. For one, he was honest and self-critical and even too honest about himself. How often do we get that from a jock? I can't think of another instance. Maybe Dutton and Mellinger and the guys around the team would know of more examples, with off-the-record stuff especially, but this wasn't like that. Banny was open about it. He knew about it and would talk about it.
He also tried to adjust. Another surprisingly cool thing.
Over the next three seasons, Bannister consciously worked to strike more guys out. His K/9 went to 5.6 in 2008, then 5.7 in 2009. The walks, however, also went up, and when the hits-luck evened out (or just stopped happening, more accurately) we were left with a mostly ineffective pitcher. And that's more or less the end of the story.
Still, Banny kept chugging along. Alright, that's not a good phrase. Bannister was paid well to play baseball, so it isn't exactly like he was slogging away waiting tables. He ended up making 108 starts for the Royals over four seasons. (Banny is surprisingly 16th in team history in starts made, wedged between the cursed Jose Rosado and Bud Black.) In the end, he was a player for our baseball team for a number of years. He was, truly, an established Royal.
And Banny's quotes kept getting better, he probably introduced more people around Kansas City to advanced pitching stats than Bill James ever did. He also talked about Pitch f/x. Because I'm a contrarian bastard, I never fully let myself enjoy just how cool this was. Because, really, it was.
Maybe, at some unspoken level, there was something awkward about Bannister and the saber stuff. Maybe, in some self-hating way, I was a little embarrassed to hear Banny talk about FIP. That was part of my little nerd world, and the athletes were not really a part of it. They were supposed to be off living in their bodies, sleeping with beautiful women, being rich and being a little dumb and aloof. I don't know... maybe it was almost Seinfield worlds-colliding theory. Or, maybe, it was just my complicated relationship to the writing of Joe Posnanski. Maybe it was the Banny Logs that made he a joyless non-fan.
So now, I know I'm going to miss Bannister. I'm going to miss his honesty, his self-awareness, his willingness to experiment. In a world of guys with stuff seemingly blindly going out there start after start, hoping something "clicks" Bannister was the opposite.
He was a Royal, for four years. He looked at baseball in ways that we do. He tried to improve and change and didn't do so merely by falling into the accepted modes of sports pysch or the like. I'll miss him.
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I bet this played a bigger role, even subliminally, than you remember
my complicated relationship to the writing of Joe Posnanski
For all his good writing, his love affair with Banny was a bit offputting.
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 3, 2010 3:49 PM EST reply actions
for being the most stat-friendly major writer out there
there’s the soft/sentimental/“message” side to Poz too
love one…
nah
I don’t agree with Rany on everything, but I more or less share his… I dunno… core mood or whatever.
Poz is a little too purple for me at times.
by Freneau on Dec 3, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly the way I feel about both.
I can’t really stand Posnanski anymore….maybe I will start to read him again come March.
Like a weapon labeled "very stupid weapon, do not use." - BabyBlues
I like Poz's purpleness
because I truly believe he’s being sincere. That is, sort of embarassingly I guess, enough for me. Poz is able to encapsulate what it’s like to be a sports-addicted, stat-loving, and yet emotionally-driven kid. On my Thanksgiving plate of sports commentary, I like a little Poz, a little Goldstein, a little Tango (a little Mcdonald too, hey!…seriously). Poz is like the cranberry sauce. Would you eat cranberry sauce by itself?
Spanish Club President, Park Hill High, 1991-92
by jackie ballgame on Dec 3, 2010 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
well, there is no mistaking that he's a very good writer
but now that he’s the consensus “best sportswriter in America” according to everyone, I think it’s probably true that he appeals to different people differently. i think most people like him for his mitch album type stuff rather than the fact that he went out of his way to pimp joe mauer for MVP last year
I think Will is more the cranberry sauce on that table. Kinda bitter but still good stuff. Poz is the sweet potatoes with marsh mellow topping. Generally good substantial stuff but made sweet to trick the people at the little kids table into eating it.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
I think the thing that always made me a little aloof was that I resented him just a little.
I mean here was this athlete, and a good one we thought in 2007 talking about sabermetrics and adjustments and Babip and FIP and pitch f/x and it seemed like this could be the start of a revolution of sorts among sports players towards analyzing their own performance.
Then 2008 happened.
Then 2009.
By 2010, it almost wasn’t surprising that Banny kinda sucked.
It annoyed me, here was a guy who should be improving and leading the sabermetric charge, and instead for every new acronym he dropped, his ERA rose half a point.
So I guess i resent him a little for that.
all in all though Banny was fun. and I will miss him.
(Saber PS. I would love, LOVE for a team to sign Banny and put him on a strict 5 inning/start limit and see how he would do. For his career in the first half of the season he has a 4.45 ERA, in the second half its nearly 7. I think most of his problems come not from stuff, but from control and loss thereof as he tires through the season.)
"We don’t have guys with a long history of being effective in the seventh and eighth innings."
~Trey Hillman, master of understatements.
by RoyalPug on Dec 3, 2010 3:54 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
well, in the end, he was limited by his physical abilities
I don’t think his mental side was really to blame
by Freneau on Dec 3, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly. If knowing the saber stuff was what made you a good pitcher, I imagine a lot of the guys here would be playing rather than typing.
What I found fun about him was that he was painfully aware of his physical limitations but was pulling on every possible resource available to him to try to maximize what physical talents/skills he has.
I think you nailed it, WIll, when you talked about how he wasn’t hoping something would “click” he was actively assessing and reassessing to try to anticipate problems (in the beginning) and compensate for problems (in the end).
And RoyalPug, I think you make a great point about the innings, too. He always had that wall he would hit in a game, and then in a season. It was infuriating to watch as the various manager’s would “give him a chance to work out of it.” He’s not going to work out of it! Once he hits the wall, he cannot control the ball and throw it worth anything at the same time. Not that I’ve watched as many pitchers as thoroughly as I’ve watched Banny, but I have never seen one who you could count on as out of it once he hit that wall as much as Banny was. And I never understood why those who make these decisions didn’t seem to also understand this.
I would love to see them remove the lights from Wrigley field and make hime pitch every home game for them.
The curse of the effing goat would be no more and I wouldn’t have to listen to my wife’s shit about how loathsome being a Cubs fan is every September. She has no idea that she’s actuallly preaching to the choir.
Wondering where we will get our grit in 2011.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Dec 3, 2010 3:57 PM EST reply actions
Long Live Day Banny!!!!!!!
Wondering where we will get our grit in 2011.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Dec 3, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
oh God
I totally forgot about that night/day thing
that annoyed me to no end, but wasn’t really his doing
he had a good line about it, too
When Poz texted (remember THAT?) him about about it, Banny replied “probably because the hitters are still hungover.”
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 3, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
Hope to see him play in for a NL team next year
If we’re lucky we can see him if they visit the K. I would most definitely go to a game if I knew he was pitching.
See ya Banny.
Bannister is currently sitting in the lobby outside Jed Hoyer's office without an appointment
just in case Hoyer can see him for five minutes in between meetings and conference calls.
yup
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 3, 2010 4:07 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The thing with Bannister
was that he was always either performing well above or below his abilities.
2007: “He’s not as good as his ERA”
2008: “He’s not as bad as his ERA”
2009: “He’s not as good as his FIP”
2010: “He’s not as bad as his FIP”
JoPo definitely sabotaged my relationship with Banny
I knew I should’ve loved him the whole time but I just never did.
Kind of like JoPo himself, actually. I mean, the guy is into sabermetrics, he’s a pretty free thinker in other areas too, he likes The Hold Steady, he seems genuinely humble, friendly and intelligent. I really should love him.
And yet, I most definitely do not. All that shmaltz is just so wack. And he really plays up the “nice guy” thing far too much. Any time he says anything negative about anyone he has to qualify it by talking about how much he likes the guy. Hey, maybe he really does like everyone. But if you like everyone, do you actually like anyone? There have to be degrees, right? On some level I think he’s just using the word differently than us. Like = am aware of.
I would imagine there are a lot of people who Poz ruined Bannister for. “A lot” being a relative term, of course. Let’s say a dozen people.
by big matt on Dec 3, 2010 6:07 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I feel like Poz kinda missed the plot on Banny
I don’t really recall Bannister ever saying, “I have no stuff, but I can wiggle through games and situations because I’m smart”
whether intentional or not, the Banny Logs could have been straight out of 1995… “this guy is brilliant at pitching to the score/sutuation” etc
by Freneau on Dec 3, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What's wrong with a guy being a superfan of an ordinary player?
I was a superfan of Greg Gagne, for example (who really wasn’t ordinary, by the way, at least not defensively, so he’s probably not a good example). But on the other hand, what’s wrong with an essay, even a weekly essay about a player you enjoy watching fight for survival in the bigs? I thought it was a great commentary. I understand the irritation toward writers who go for the ‘human side’ when they don’t do it well, but Poz has great writing chops, and I’m skeptical of opinions that don’t at least recognize that.
Further, what’s wrong with being polite? If I covered Dayton Moore and found him to be likable, I’d make it a point to say that in my column before ripping him to shreds. It’s called decorum. And when Joe says these things, I think he’s just being honest. He’s about to rip a guy he likes at a personal level, and he’s letting you know that his critique isn’t personal.
I guess you’d prefer a more personal attack. I’m guessing you’re a fan of reality TV?
Spanish Club President, Park Hill High, 1991-92
by jackie ballgame on Dec 3, 2010 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Nice dig at the end. Zing!
I watch The Ultimate Fighter, so I guess thats reality TV. But then, I write for a fighting blog, so I don’t know if that show can really be counted against me.
Poz definitely has writing chops, he just turns me off in other ways. Me, and plenty of other people. Personally, I found the Banny log to be irritating, but if you liked it more power to you, I’m not judging you. Each his own. Will alluded to Poz affecting his feelings on Banny, I agreed.
I don’t like journalists to needlessly make things personal (nor did I ever say that), but i think you can admit Poz talks about how much he likes people more than just about any other sports journalist. It’s a huge part of his image. I think on some level that is done on purpose. Regardless, its obviously worked very well for him. It just rubs me wrong sometimes, for the reasons I mentioned.
OBVIOUSLY I’m fine with someone liking an ordinary player (doesn’t every baseball fan do that?). I once made my own Jeff Reboulet t-shirt.
I humbly agree.
"Hey, maybe he really does like everyone. But if you like everyone, do you actually like anyone?" - big matt
let’s call it what it is. I concede.
I used to love Desi Relaford. He was so fun to watch!
Also, Jim Eisenreich.
Also, Joe Randa.
Also, Brian McRae.
Also, Terry Shumpford
…your point is well-taken.
"Hey, maybe he really does like everyone. But if you like everyone, do you actually like anyone?" - big matt
Everyone liked Joe Randa,
He was however, very ordinary. I’ve been really hoping for ordinary at 3B since he left.
Wondering where we will get our grit in 2011.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Dec 4, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Desi? Really?
(A friend of mine brought him up just yesterday- I had almost forgotten how much I loathed his ability to play every position on the diamond poorly)
I've always cheered for the grinders.
When I see a guy who lacks the “tools” and doesn’t have a “pro body” but who still manages to play the game at a high level, I just love the dude. I loved Grudz. I loved Matt Stairs. I even loved Emil for the same reason. When I was growing up my favorite players on the Reds were guys most people have never heard of. Herm Winningham, Max Venable, and hell, I loved Terry Francona as a player! So many golden boys are given chance after chance, not to prove they belong, but to demonstrate beyond doubt that they do not belong. It upsets me. The world upsets me. Too much of that crap goes on. Favoritism based on pedigree or physical make-up. We pretend we live in a meritocracy, but we all know life is far from an even playing field. There are too many people out there who were born on third base and don’t understand how hard it is for the rest of us to work the walk that drives them in.
My favorite Royals over the last few years have been the same type. I love Mitch. I loved Ducky. I pull for Kia and Aviles. Guys who are in the show for no reason other than they work their butts off and they won’t give up. (Granted Herm and Mitch were first round draft picks, but in my special world I can ignore things like that.)
Obviously no one is a fan of Royals baseball because they love to see a winner. We all have reasons why we invest in this team. One part of the fandom that works for me is that I generally like most of the guys who are on the team. Is that so weird a reason to be a fan of a team? Because you like the players and are happy to see some of them over achieve? I’d rather follow a roster built on merit than “upside.”
Anyway, the bottom line of this whole thing will surprise no one. When I watch a grinder play the game I see myself. I am not brilliant. Only a really drunk person who already loved me would ever call me easy on the eye. I didn’t enter this world with connections or a surplus of support. But I’ve gotten things done because I do know how to work and I don’t give up on myself. So yeah, I cheered for Banny. And I’ll miss him. But I was getting pretty feed up with his walk rate, and rationally I know Moore made the right decision.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
by James Quinn on Dec 4, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think Poz actually is a nice guy. I'm not sure he plays it up so much as that's who he fundamentally is. Just my take on it.
I’ve only met him or seen him a handful of times at things around the city, either events or when he came into my store to hang out, and he was always super nice to anyone who wanted to talk to him and to anyone he was interacting with.
Good bye sweet day walker.
/tear
Dr. Ausgiano schools me in the classroom and on the field of battle
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Dec 3, 2010 6:14 PM EST reply actions
Will - nice right up. It's helping me in my mourning stages.
But you forgot to mention what a nice smile he has. And as several of you guys are always fond of mentioning, the ladies like to slide down the Bannister. (Did I get that right? While I do have a foul mouth, I’ve never mastered the implied-crudeness pun-thing.)
Wiccan Handsome!
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 4, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
Umm, yeah, you did.
And pretty well, I might add.
It's all ball bearings these days!
by CentralChamps20?? on Dec 4, 2010 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
Also - why do you guys even read Posnanski anymore if you dislike him so much? (I'm just curious.)
I mean, for me I often will not see a “hot” movie or read a much-hyped book precisely because I know I won’t be able to enjoy it for what it is and will instead be reacting to my resentment about the hypeness of it. So I’ll wait until my palette is cleaned.
So why do you read someone you clearly don’t like and whose opinions poison you to what you might otherwise enjoy? Not trying to be snarky, this is genuine curiosity trying to understand a different point-of-view. Thanks!
For some reason I stopped reading his stuff when he crossed over to SI
but I still read it once in a while because I follow him on Facebook and stories occasionally appear linked there.
I think that, most of us still like him
I may not read everything he writes (I can usually tell going in if I’m going to like it) but I respect his viewpoint enough to alway shave him on the radar
Is that jive talk in the Dakotas?
Shave him on the radar
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 6, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
I've basically stopped reading Poz
Despite Jackie Ballgame’s above attempt to paint me as some sort of reality TV loving, hate-filled mouth-breather, I don’t have massive hate in my heart for Poz or anything like that. His shtick just got old to me and it started to seem, if not dishonest, then at least calculated.
Case in point: when Carl Peterson “stepped down” Poz wrote an article a few days later where the first sentence was “Well, I guess I’m the guy elected to write something nice about Carl Peterson.” Putting aside the fact that that had already been done several times (Gretz, Thorman, Teicher), it felt like Poz was playing up his “nice guy” reputation rather than telling us what he actually thought. I go to a journalist for his opinion, not to hear him lob empty compliments at a guy he didn’t even like. It made me wonder about Poz’s motives at other times as well. And I’m not talking about “trying to get ahead” or anything of the sort. I just don’t really believe him when he says he likes people some of the time. That sentence, when coming out of his mouth, has lost all meaning.
When a guy tells me he how much he likes Buddy Bell it discredits him saying he likes other people. The word “like” just ceases to have any meaning at that point. I mean, if I tell you I like getting punched in the face, what are you going to think a week later when I tell you I like apple pie?
But really, its just a personal preference. I recognize that Poz is a good writer. He’s obviously got a great brain. It’s definitely had an impact on me as a sports fan. He just stopped scratching me where I itch. And even when he did he still annoyed me at times. As the years go by, its shifted more towards annoyance and less towards enlightenment. So unless something of his is specifically recommended to me I rarely read him.
I’m not gonna hate on anyone else for liking him though. He definitely has a ton to offer if he doesn’t annoy you.
by big matt on Dec 4, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I think your second-to-last paragraph illuminated things for me a bit.
Although the one about getting punched in the face was good, too :)
I still love Poz
However, I think he’s spreading himself too thin these days. Rather than churning out 1000 amazing words a day, it’s become 10,000 very good words a day.
Poz to me is like the David Feherty write ups in the back of Golf magazene.
I’d rather read more viagra ads sometimes…
Wondering where we will get our grit in 2011.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Dec 4, 2010 5:55 PM EST reply actions
Speaking of the back of magazenes,
I’m over Rick Reilly too.
Wondering where we will get our grit in 2011.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Dec 4, 2010 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
"I'm essentially a joyless contrarian bastard"
There’s something to put on a business card ;)
Actually Not A
Bad T-shirt.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 5, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions




















