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Around SBN: What If This Is It For The Celtics? End Of An Era Looming

Preseason All-AL Central

College sports have all kinds of "All Whatever" lists...preseason all-conference, all-Americans, All-defense and everything else you can imagine.  Professional leagues haven't messed with these lists, they provide All-Stars and that is about it.  I'm changing that today, how about a preseason All American League Central list?  In order to come up with my list, I used information from two websites, Fangraphs and MLB Depth Charts.  Fangraphs was used for their projected WAR for the 2010 season and MLB Depth Charts for the projected depth charts for the five teams in the AL Central. 


Star-divide

The Royals end up with one first teamer and his manager had this to say about him:

I would put Gordon’s name probably at the top of the list," Hillman said. "He’s coming off major surgery. I know he came back last year. I know he’s a great worker and everybody is waiting for him to breakout so to speak. But I’m not going to discount Josh Fields’ ability and count him out of the mix there.

and this gem from Kaegel:

A big year from Gordon doesn't seem as crucial now, however, with slugger Josh Fields and .300 hitter Alberto Callaspo as possible alternatives at third base.

Comment 55 comments  |  6 recs  | 

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What a shitty division

The Central IX has a projected 30.4 WAR. How would the East and West stack up?

by kcbottom9th on Feb 14, 2010 3:32 PM EST reply actions  

The East is insane

Using the same sources:

Left Field – Randy Winn, Jacoby Ellsbury, Noland Reimold, Travis Snider, Carl Crawford.
Jacoby wins with 3.9 WAR

Center Field – Curtis Granderson, Mike Cameron, Adam Jones, Vernon Wells, B.J. Upton
Granderson wins with 4.4 WAR (CHONE puts Cameron at 1.7 even though he had two straight 4+ years, seemed very odd to me)

Right Field – Nick Swisher, J.D. Drew, Nick Markakis, Jose Bautista, Matt Joyce
Markakis wins with 4.1 WAR (CHONE puts Drew at 2.7 despite two straight 4+ years, another oddity)

Third Base – Alex Rodriguez, Adrian Beltre, Miguel Tejada, Edwin Encarnacion, Evan Longoria
Longoria just gets it with 5.1 WAR (Rodriguez was at 5.0)

Shortstop – Derek Jeter, Marco Scutaro, Cesar Izturis, Alex Gonzales, Jason Bartlett
Jeter wins with 3.4 WAR

Second Base – Robinson Cano, Dustin Pedroia, Brian Roberts, Aaron Hill, Ben Zobrist
Pedroia wins with 4.7 WAR (Zobrist had a fairly conservative 3.7 after his breakout)

First Base – Mark Teixiera, Kevin Youkilis, Garret Atkins, Lyle Overbay, Carlos Pena
Teixiera wins with 5.1 WAR (Youkilis posted consecutive seasons of 5.5 and 5.6, but CHONE has him at just 3.8)

Catcher – Jorge Posada, Victor Martinez, Matt Weiters, John Buck, Kelly Shoppach
Martinez takes the last spot with 4.4 WAR

by JoCro on Feb 14, 2010 4:12 PM EST reply actions  

That totals to a 35.1 WAR

I thought it would be more, but a lot more depth in the East, and not having Joe Maeur made things closer.
AL East average WAR per player – 4.3875
AL Central average WAR per player – 3.8

by JoCro on Feb 14, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Is Gordon Beckham going to be that good?

Upon looking at his stats, I guess so. I knew he was going to be good, I didn’t realize he posted an OBP of 340+ in over 100 games last year.

Pecota, watch over us.

by castille on Feb 14, 2010 4:14 PM EST reply actions  

Beckham had a real nice final 1/3rd of the season

was a damn nice pick up for fantasy baseball is how I know.

by I need more Esteban on Feb 15, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice

Nice Post Warden. A few thoughts:
1.The left fielders in this division HAVE to be the worst of any division in baseball.
2. Is Alex Gordon really better than Brandon Inge?
3. Is Shin Soo-Choo really better than Cuddyer?
Also, does anybody know anything about these young Cleveland players? Do they have promise, or do the Indians just suck???

by kcfan92 on Feb 14, 2010 4:28 PM EST reply actions  

According to Fangraphs

Shin Soo Choo 2009- 5 WAR
Cuddyer 2009- 2 WAR

So yeah, last year he was a lot better.

Inge WAR totals for last 3 years: 1.7, 1.2, and 2.5
Gordon WAR totals for last 3 years: 2.0, 2.4, and .5

Shouldn’t be too much of a stretch to believe Gordon will have a better year than Inge, especially considering age.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

by Warden11 on Feb 14, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

Inge can’t hit

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 14, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Cuddyer

His fielding was just awful last season, worth -17.3 runs. Choo might not be a great fielder but he won’t be nearly that bad. And Choo’s bat will, at worst, equal Cuddyer’s – he will very likely outhit Cuddyer as well.

I feel like Choo is overlooked by most people, myself included. Maybe another great season will change that.

by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Feb 14, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Not by me

Drafted him on my fantasy team last year. Very solid contributor.

by AxDxMx on Feb 14, 2010 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't believe people seriously think Cuddyer can touch Choo

Cuddyer is a good hitter. Choo is better.

Choo is at least average as a fielder, Cuddyer only looks good because he plays alongside “outfielders” like Delmon Young and Jason Kubel.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 14, 2010 9:38 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Question for you

Any idea how the Metrodome’s RF baggie would affect UZR data? I’ve heard before that UZR can record unplayable balls off of the baggie as hits. I think most Twins fans recognize that Cuddyer is a bad defender, but I wonder if the baggie magnifies his bad defense as measured by UZR.

But I agree with you that Cuddyer isn’t nearly as good as Choo. Also rec’d you for calling Young and Kubel “outfielders.” So true, haha.

by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Feb 14, 2010 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I really don't know about that

UZR would does park-adjust, although that won’t necessarily cover everything

Plus/minus and TotalZone also think Cuddyer sucks. It will be interesting to see how he does in Target Field, just like it will be interesting to see how Jason “He’s Totally Awesome Except for the Darn Green Monster [ignore his last couple seasons in PIT]” Bay adjusts to his new environs, as well.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Feb 15, 2010 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow

Thanks for correcting me on Choo, I didn’t know he was that good. And I just meant Inge vs. Gordon last year

by kcfan92 on Feb 14, 2010 5:24 PM EST reply actions  

How many times does it have to be pointed out

WAR does not factor in grit!

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Feb 14, 2010 7:57 PM EST reply actions  

Ellsbury tops Crawford?

Whoa. Did not see that coming.

Murphy was an optimist.

by The Ol' Perfesser on Feb 14, 2010 9:06 PM EST reply actions  

But did we have enough LF data on Ellsbury to figure that correctly?

I mean, he didn’t play much in LF the last few years… And we have to adjust for DDJ as well, right?

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Feb 15, 2010 8:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Well Crawford is good

But he’s very overrated. I’ve always thought Crawford and Ellsbury were somewhat comparable.
OFFENSE
Both of their BB rates are below average at 7.6 and 7.1%, respectively. However, Crawford K’s about 5% more than Ellsbury. His speed makes up for this and keeps his BABIP high (.346 last year) but his Spd has decreased every year for five years, if the trend continues, we could see a sharp drop in his BABIP, and his OBP. Ellsbury’s data in this area is a little more stable, but with only two full major league seasons no true trend can be determined. As it stands, his Spd was 8.1 to Crawford’s 7.7 last season, though I think that more important is whether Ellsbury stabilizes, or even gains speed as Crawford regresses. OBP is where things get a lot more interesting. Both players AVG’s were within .001, while Crawford had a .364 OBP to Ellsbury’s .355. Again, though, the trends should be noted. Crawford’s OBP rose to a career high last year, at 27, so he should have 2-3 seasons left at peak performance until he begins his decline, likely accelerated by his loss of speed. Again, Ellsbury has just two major league seasons, so a trend would be difficult, but his BB% is on the rise, and so his is BABIP (.332 last year, up from .314 his rookie season). I wouldn’t expect to dramatic a rise in either next year, but their still should be a noted increase to at least Crawford’s level. Power is Crawford’s domain, and Ellsbury likely will never challenge him. He may improve from a very weak .114 ISO over his first two seasons, but most of his value will come from his OBP and his speed. At the end of the day though, Crawford has averaged a .154 ISO over the past 6 seasons, and that should hold stable. So Crawford’s OBP skills should see slight decline over the next few seasons unless he stabilizes his speed, while his power will remain about where it is. Ellsbury has every reason to improve on an already strong campaign, and should get on base at a higher clip, with maybe a little increase in power. So with a little regression from Crawford, and a little improvement from Ellsbury, the .367 and .354 wOBA’s for each player could easily flip next season, with Ellsbury on the rise offensively. It should also be noted that Jacoby is 2 years younger.

DEFENSE
I’ll start with Crawford, since his is a lot simpler. Defensively, he is very very good. In 8 Major League seasons, only twice has he not posted a UZR/150 in LF less than 13.9: once was a still strong 9.6 (down from 14.2 the previous season), and the very next season just -1.4. However, he rebounded to a ridiculous 25.6 the next year (in just 108 games, though), and had a strong 2009 with 17.5. Now, he appears to have everything figured out in LF, he know how to play and has likely reached his fielding peak. The only question now is how well he holds his range. As discussed earlier, his speed appears to be on the decline, which may bring a slight decrease in range, but expect another great season in the field from Crawford (probably 14-16 UZR/150). Ellsbury is much different. Last season in CF he posted a miserable -18.3 UZR/150, down from a decent 6.9/150 his rookie season. And anyone that watched any film could see his problem: very bad reads. He has the athletic ability to be a phenomenal fielder at or above Crawford’s peak, but he doesn’t see the ball well off of the bat in CF, gets late jumps, and has to dive at what others could bag easily. However, with a premier CF in Mike Cameron coming to Fenway, if Jacoby exhibits any desire to improve, Cameron should be able to help him greatly. This is not to mention how covering a smaller amount of ground in LF and playing alongside Cameron in CF should make things much easier on him.This combined with his UZR data shows that Ellsbury should be a very good fielder in either of the corner outfield positions, especially LF. The reads appear to be easier for him to make, as he has a 19.1 UZR/150 in Right, and 21.8 in Left, though both are in limited service time. So while there is little information to determine a trend, it appears to be upward for Jacoby, and stable to decreasing for Crawford. Next year at least, they should be about equal, with maybe a slight edge to Crawford.

FINAL VERDICT – Crawford posted a career high 5.5 WAR last year, while Jacoby’s 1.9 was hampered by his horrible fielding. But declines in Fielding and Batting values as I discussed with Crawford, and improvements in fielding for Ellsbury, Jacoby has a 3.9 to 3.4 lead. In reality this means they are almost the same value, though CHONE projects no improvement for Ellsbury offensively, and I doubt this will be the case. So in 2010 Ellsbury should be a very, very, slightly better player, increasing for about 2 more years as he enters his peak as Crawford has seen career highs which should hold for 2-3 seasons (again, slightly below Ellsbury’s) before they begin to decline.

by JoCro on Feb 15, 2010 10:21 AM EST up reply actions  

YUNI YUNI YUNI

Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!

by mazoboom on Feb 14, 2010 10:57 PM EST reply actions  

I dont care what those numbers say...

My eyes tell me that Yuni will be at least a 17 WAR player

Pitchers and Catchers report February 17th... And so begins my masochistic addiction.

by averagegatsby on Feb 15, 2010 12:52 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

You forgot to put a period before the 1.

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Preserved In All His Greatness - R.I.P. The Reignman 1989 to 1997

by JLProck on Feb 18, 2010 1:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Brandon Inge hits home runs for kids with cancer

Alex Gordon punches kids with cancer.

Advantage: Brandon Inge

by NotAHippie on Feb 15, 2010 1:05 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

I love the idea of this.

You should do a poll on each position including 5 starting pitchers, set-up man, and closer. Put in options.

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Feb 15, 2010 9:27 AM EST reply actions  

I should have done that first,

I don’t think there’s any way Gordon would have been picked as a “first teamer”.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

by Warden11 on Feb 15, 2010 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Fan survey is posted in the fanshots!

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

by Warden11 on Feb 15, 2010 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

I wasn't aware that every Central team

has an extremely mediocre left fielder. Third base is no great shakes, either, and shortstop is weak. Oh, well, who cares, we’re gonna stink big time, anyway.

I too am skeptical of WAR, especially because of the arbitrary position adjustments and the imperfections (at least so far) of defensive metrics. But I certainly wouldn’t call it a joke. I wouldn’t base my whole opinion of a player on his WAR, but it’s a stat well worth taking into account.

It's pronounced Poo-ZHOLS in Catalan.

by Juancho on Feb 15, 2010 9:58 AM EST reply actions  

Yeah, the positional adjustments do bug me a bit too

But then again, if you think of being able to play that position as a skill, then it makes sense. For example, plugging Billy Butler in at SS would significantly boost his WAR at first glance, but then his defensive shortcomings would likely put him at something like -100 runs for the season if not more. That translates to a -10 wins and would cancel out whatever advantage the positional adjustment gave him. WAR is a handy tool to compare players to each other because of the positional adjustments. If you don’t believe in positional adjustments consider this:

Which player would you rather have?
Player A: .300/.400/.500
Player B: .300/.400/.500

What’s that? They’re the same player? Did I mention Player A plays 1B, while Player B plays SS? They’re both darn good players, but if you don’t pick the SS you are ignoring scarcity (and the higher WAR of the SS, assuming both players play at the same level of defense). There are a lot more 1B guys that can hit like that than there are shortstops. Obviously a bit simplistic, but I think the point comes across.

by AxDxMx on Feb 15, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I do believe in the defensive spectrum, of course

but I’m not sure how easy it is to quantify, especially in relation to a player’s other skills. WAR is an attempt to do so. It’s imperfect, but it’s a stat well worth considering when evaluating a player. I just don’t think it’s the only one.

It's pronounced Poo-ZHOLS in Catalan.

by Juancho on Feb 15, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Looking at how quickly the talent drops off at 3B supports the positional adjustment

Here are the leaderboards among 3B qualifiers last year, 2008, and 2007. Generally, there are around ten or so above average (3.0 WAR or better), a handful around average (2.0-3.0 WAR), and that’s it.

3B is a tough position to fill.

by Gopherballs on Feb 15, 2010 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

That's what Kenny Williams said

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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 15, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I love how Kenny has absolutely no backup plan for Teahen

or LF or DH. Okay, for DH, he does not have a Plan A either. If Teahen (or anyone else in the infield) struggles or gets hurts, Omar Vizquel has to play every day. If an outfielder struggles or gets hurt, Mark Kotsay has to play everyday.

He might have been able to get Felipe Lopez and Russell Branyan for the cost of Teahen. Or was that one of your points on the podcast?

Nice job on the podcast, by the way. Dave Cameron has to be one of the tougher guys to do a roundtable with, considering the fast talking, his lousy cell phone reception, and his general lack of tact (which I mean in a good way).

by Gopherballs on Feb 15, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

You realize that the more we mock Kenny, the more likely it is the White Sox win 95 games, right?

I don’t know what they’re going. Damon would make a ton of sense in Chicago, too, as would Lopez. And Branyan.

They’re paying Pierre $4M this season — there’s Branyan and/or Lopez right there.

Thanks for the compliments on the podcast. The first one I hung back too much, on this one I’m a bit out of control. Trying to get a nice balance. Dave not only really smart, but has a lot of “inside info” that’s helpful — like the stuff on how Lopez is perceived and Branyan’s back situation. I’m pretty limited to what I read and the numbers — I thikn that also explains the very different ways in which Dave and I perceive Damon/Raburn.

I should also note that I never criticized the As for picking up Gross — it was a twitter exchange where I said that Damon didn’t make sense for the As, and I ended up coming around on that — The As are potential contenders, the Tigers aren’t.

I was relieved that I wasn’t the one who called Daniel Murphy “David,” though. That was Carson.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 15, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

You mean there's a Daniel and a David Murphy?

Which one is Dale’s son?

The funny thing with the White Sox is that they are actually set up well for this year. The rotation is legitimately above average four deep, the pen has decent arms, and six lineup spots should have average to above average production (C, 1B, 2B, SS, CF, RF). The other three spots and the bench, though, just might turn out to be sinkholes. Even if Kenny misses the obvious free agent patches available, he still is the type to cash in Hudson or Flowers down the road to bring in a big bat or two to cover the holes.

by Gopherballs on Feb 15, 2010 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Can he do it in time to catch the Twins?

no way, barrng massive injuries or “underperformance,” that the Wildcard doesn’t come out of the East. The Yankees are running away with it now (which makes all the handwringing over Johnny Damon that much more hilarious), and then there’s Boston and TBA…

Kenny could have signed Cust and Lopez both for about $1-2M more than he’s giving Pierre, then another $1M for Gabe Gross.

Personally, I’m not sold on “Carlos Quentin, Superstar,” since he’s had exactly one good season. We’ll see how he works out in RF. Still at least average, though.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 15, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, the Twins will not play consistently .580 ball from April 1 to October 1

And Gardenhire is not exactly known for playing his pieces in the way that maximizes their value (“batting third, at DH, Mike Redmond”). Plus, the Twins are a Denard Span hamstring strain away from the Humorous Misadventures of Delmon Young, Centerfielder.

So, yeah, the Twins should win the division comfortably, but come June 15, they may only be ahead of the Sox by a few games. Kenny in “Win Now” mode might be able to fill two replacement level (or worse) holes with solid players who collectively might add three wins or more over the rest of the season — for example, he might flip prospects for Dunn and Harris, or LaRoche and Myrow, or Scott and Tejeda, or DeJesus and Callaspo. The Sox would probably still need some luck, overperformance by their guys, or underperformance or injuries by the Twins, but the gap would be closer.

by Gopherballs on Feb 15, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, the Twins OF situation could get ugly in a hurry

I was wondering about that the other day. Did they really need to let Pridie go?

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 15, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

also

I think we’ll get Dave’s Skype working eventually — the cellphone was the fallback both weeks.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Feb 15, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

That will be nice

I kept having to fiddle with the volume depending on the speaker.

by Gopherballs on Feb 15, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

If the Royals would leave DDJ in LF,

then they would actually have two starters out of 9 positions.

That would be average – but the position players overall on the Royals are still FAR from avg, even in this division. What does that tell us? Two things:

1) We don’t have any superstars, like a Mauer or a Sizemore, or a Cabrera

AND

2) We have players at or below replacement level at too many positions.

Same complaints I’ve always had. Of course, fixing #2 problem SHOULD be a no-brainer, but our GM doesn’t seem to understand the concept of replacement level. Fixing #1 is a bit more difficult, and unless we develop the player from within, our owner is simply not going to pay what it takes to solve problem #1.

Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!

by loyal2sdad on Feb 15, 2010 12:30 PM EST reply actions  

So here is your Official Ballot

Listed in order of their depth chart on their MLB site (except I listed Callaspo instead of Getz). The team order goes like this: ChiSox, Cleveland, Detroit, KC, Minnesota.

Catchers: Pierzynski, Lou Marson, Laird, Kendall, Mauer
First Base: Konerko, LaPorta, M Cabrera, Butler, Morneau
Second Base: Beckham, Valbueno, Scott Sizemore, Callaspo (Getz), O Hudson
SS: Alexi Ramirez, Asdrubal Cabrera, Everett, Yuni, and JJ Hardy
Third Base: Teahan, Peralta, Inge, Gordon, Brendan Harris

LF: Pierre, M Brantley, Raburn, Podsednik, Delmon Young
CF: Rios, G Sizemore, Austin Jackson, Ankiel, Span
RF: Quentin, Choo, Maggs Ordonez, DDJ, Cuddyer
DH: Mark Kotsay, Hafner, Carlos Guillen, Jose Guillen, Kubel

SP: Peavy, Buerhle, Gavin Floyd; Westbrook, Carmona, Masterson; Verlander, Porcello, Scherzer; Grienke, Meche, Hochevar; Scott Baker, Kevin Slowey, Pavano

CP: Jenks, Wood, Valverde, Soria, and Nathan

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Feb 15, 2010 2:48 PM EST reply actions  

So crap.

You already posted that and I forgot…

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Feb 15, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

my all-central

LF- Guillen
CF- Span
RF- Dejesus
3B- Inge
SS- Cabrera
2B- Hudson
1B- Morneau
C- Mauer

by Rickfansince76 on Feb 25, 2010 12:58 AM EST reply actions  

Jose Guillen is a right fielder

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 25, 2010 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

In What Sense?

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Feb 26, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

in the sense that he is a great competitor

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Feb 26, 2010 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

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