The State of the Minor Leagues in Year Five of Dayton Moore's Leadership
Dayton Moore was hired by the Royals during the 2006 season. Although he kinda sorta didn't oversee the 2006 Draft (the Hochevar Draft) he did begin working on rebuilding the franchise's minor league system right away. Under Moore the Royals have spent heavily on the amateur market (Moore's regime has consistently been one of the top spenders), hired a number of well-regarded player development types, and expanded the entire size and scope of the minor league operation. The Royals have more dollars, more scouts, even more teams down on the farm now. This expansion has been part of the Dayton Moore regime from the beginning, and reflects the basic nature of Moore's program. Moore got the job because of his reputation at this aspect of the game, and his entire plan has been premised on developing a first class minor league system. Ownership has been convinced that this is the only way the Royals can compete, and they have allowed Moore to do what he wants, schematically and financially, to implement his ... (wait for it) process.
While Moore's reputation regarding Major League transactions has eroded since 2008, he was able to recieve a contract extension in 2009 because of the various bonnets he's been handed for the work done in building up the minor league system. As illustrated below however, as we enter year five of the Dayton Moore regime, the strengthof the minor league system is far from a fully legitimated truth.
In part, there's been a persistent shibboleth that the system was unspeakably horrible under Baird, that Moore inherited an organization that was in total disarray, and that he needs a wide latitude and years upon years to produce acceptable results. Granted, the minor leagues were rarely a strength under Baird, but the extent to which they were bad has been overdone. Mediocre might be more accurate. Between 2001 and 2005 (inclusive) the average rank of the system according to Baseball America was 21.6. That doesn't mean Baird didn't deserve to be fired, but as we move forward this decade, we need to move away from the notion that the Royals were always 29th or 30th under Baird. They weren't. Moreover, even in 2009, the majority of actually good players on the Royals remained Baird Era holdovers.
Let's take a look at how the farm system has rated out since 2006 and see if we can draw any conclusions. Below are the system ranks according to Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus (Kevin Goldstein) and Keith Law of ESPN.
| BA Rank | BP | Law | |
| 2006 | 23 | ||
| 2007 | 11 | 9 | 4 |
| 2008 | 24 | 22 | 26 |
| 2009 | 11 | 16 | 12 |
| 2010 | 17 | 9 |
- That 2007 peak you see is the height of the Butler/Gordon era as hyped prospects. It's difficult to remember now, but by early 2007 Gordon was seen as one of the absolute top prospects in the game. Gordon had the pedigree, was praised by scouts, and posted great numbers. After hitting .325/.427/.588 in 2006, Baseball America rated him as the #2 prospect in the game. Butler wasn't as highly touted, but nevertheless was the #25 prospect that same year.
- In addition to Butler and Gordon, who were both Baird draftees, the strong rankings we see for 2007 also reflect some better Baird-era drafting further down the ladder. Moreover, Moore was extremely active during 2006, and a number of his early trades were well regarded. For example, in 2006 Moore sent Mike MacDougal to the White Sox for Daniel Cortes and Tyler Lumsden, seen as a terrific trade. Likewise, in exchange for Elmer Dessens and a willingness to pay Odalis Perez, Moore acquired Blake Johnson and Julio Pimentel. Finally, the 2007 rankings also include 2006's #1 pick overall, Luke Hochevar, rated by BA as the #32 prospect in the game that year.
- We can mostly throw out the 2008 rankings as a natural drop year, given the graduations of Gordon and Butler from the system. The rankings for 2009-2010, however, can be intepreted positively or negatively. Without benefiting from any elite Baird-era holdovers, Moore has proven that he can build a system that is generally as highly esteemed as Baird at his peak. Moore took two high school hitters in the first round in 2007 and 2008, and Mike Moustakas and Eric Hosmer have generated praise from the pundits. Moose has been ranked as high as BA's #13 overall prospect and in 2009 Hosmer rated as #24.
- On the other hand, it is a little disheartening to see Baseball America consider the Royals to have the only 17th best system in the game, especially considering that the Royals have had no major graduations since Hochevar (who has himself been enigmatic). BA is not only well respected in the field, they generally share Moore's own philosophies about amateur talent. While Law's appraisal is still high, it'll be very interesting to see how Goldstein ranks the system for 2010.
- What's especially odd is that there is currently more enthusiasm for the system's depth than there's been since the 1990s, and seemingly everyone has their own favorite Royal sleeper. The Royals have a number of minor league arms that seem to draw praise and interest, but that praise and interest is still either mostly tied up in potential, or it simply isn't translating into having what's seen as a better system than other folks have.
- What also might be at play here is Moore frustrating reticence at the Major League level. Since 2008 Moore has not made a huge number of trades that have added prospects. Instead, he's traded for players such as Mike Jacobs, Coco Crisp and Josh Fields. A combination of poor Major League acquisitions and (to date) an inability to continue to trade the few Major Leaguers of value on the roster for prospects has put more pressure on the other apsects of the farm system. As a result, the Royals have been thin at AA and AAA for years now.
To conclude, we should remember a number of caveats. First, that the goal for the Kansas City Royals isn't to have the best farm system exactly. Instead, its to have the best Major League team, and to win the World Series. A strong farm system is part of how you get there, and for the Royals, it's a very large part. Secondly, to varying extents, ranking systems such as these value depth, which does not necessarily directly lead to Major League success. The Cardinals had a pretty bad system for most of the decade, but they somehow came up with an Albert Pujols. One Pujols is going to produce more Major League value than six interesting pitching prospects likely will. Depth gives you options, options if someone else flames out or gets hurt, options via trade. Finally, these rankings aren't perfect, and I don't intend to present them as such. The numbers themselves are overly specific (how is BA truly specifying that the #11 team is better than the #12 team?) and from year to year they don't translate, as the actual amount of talent in the minors at any given time varies. What they do give us is a starting point, a snapshot or two. An entry into the discussion. And in the case of all three voices listed above, well-informed and well-schooled voices. Not perfect, but not idiotic either.
2010 is a huge year for the minor league system. The Royals have a number of interesting arms, but nearly all are still mostly more potential than anything else. Hosmer and Moose are carrying a huge burden as essentially the only elite position player prospects of any kind, and they both face new challanges in 2010. In short, many of Moore's kids will be hitting more advanced levels, and it is time to see their tools translate into results. (For a GREAT comprehensive breakdown of the system, see Darren's excellent summary.)
Considering that Moore's primary job has been to develop a strong minor league system and that the Royals have consistently spent and picked highly this observer can only conclude that the results have been disappointing.
5 recs |
78 comments
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Comments
FWIW
Sickels does not do overall system ranks (which seems bizarre)
however, I’ve seen people do their own breakdowns of his ratings, for two years at least. for 2005 he had the Royals at 10th, and for 2010, he has the Royals at 12th
I'll add some more thought later...after I get some caught up on some school reading.
Good piece. I am curious if Baseball America will do updated rankings—that 17th ranking doesn’t include Arguelles—which doesn’t make a huge difference but would probably bump the Royals farm system into the upper half of their rankings.
This sums it up for me
Finally, these rankings aren’t perfect, and I don’t intend to present them as such.
What should be looked is the numbers of minor league and developmental players under contract year by year. If Dayton is true to his word (millions of dollars invested blah blah), it should show a significant increase from 2006 to now.
KCSportsPodcast.com
the raw numbers are meaningless
since 90% of these guys will never make it
by Will McDonald on Feb 21, 2010 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
ive been saying this for a long time...
considering the minor leagues are supposedly Moore’s calling card…and given the huge money he’s been given in the amateur market, his lack of success building the minor league talent has been almost as bad as on the major league level
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 21, 2010 5:37 PM EST reply actions
Ive been saying this for a long time
Dayton Moore is a horrible GM
I didn't see this article mention Aaron Crow...
But I feel as if he’s going to play a huge role in how we perceive the minor league system this year. I would not be surprised to see him pitching for the big league club at some point this season. I’ve heard through a couple different channels that there are people in the Royals front office who think he could pitch in the big leagues right now. Not likely, but would not surprise me if we see him sooner rather than later, especially if the pitching staff is sucking wind early on this season.
If Hochevar can get it together this year, and Crow can turn into a solid starting pitcher, Dayton suddenly ends up looking a lot better than otherwise. It’s very possible that by the end of this season we are looking at our minor leagues and saying, “Wow, they are barren”, or “Wow, some of these high upside guys really had break out seasons”. I mean, you can evaluate the shit out of talent, but a lot of it remains up to luck.
-
Crow
Is it possible to really screw up a college pitcher of Crow’s pedigree? Could bringing him up at the all-star break or even now ruin him? I just hear all of these cautionary tales and scaremongerings and frankly I don’t really buy it all hook line and sinker.
Of course, I could be wrong.
If he's treated like Gil Meche was last year,
I’d say yes you can really screw up a college pitcher like Crow.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.
it could
ruin him for t he royals. J.P. Howell is an excellent example.
by Dayton_Moore on Feb 22, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
good point on Crow
I didn’t purposefully leave him out, or forget him. Really, I just put him in the group of interesting pitchers we have (Montgomery, Rosa, etc)
I have no idea on Hochevar
by Will McDonald on Feb 21, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
The Royals had playoff teams
At Low A, High A and AA last year. The perception of depth is there because they competed at all levels but AAA last year. Omaha will be interesting this year – can some of the AA talent from last year can make them competitive?
The AA pitching staff is going to be real interesting to watch this year. I may have to go to Arkansas for vacation this summer. I think we find out this year whether the potential of the pitching is going to lead to production.
This seems a little overblown.
Comparing GMDM to Baird is getting old. GMDM is worse than Baird? Please.
Baird was utterly terrible and worse than GMDM for this one reason only. He couldn’t sell Glass on the moves he needed to make. In the end the GMs first job is to sell ownership on a philosophy and Baird either couldn’t sell Glass of drafting deep and talented players in more than the first round. Selling him on a better philosophy in Latin America. He also couldn’t sell Glass on making better trades for Damon, Beltran or Dye. Baird might have a better knowledge of the game than GMDM, it doesn’t matter if he can’t sell it to the man that writes the checks. For that reason GMDM is better than Baird.
Pujols is also another great reason Baird was terrible. Many teams passed on Albert multiple times but no others had an opportunity to scout him hundreds of times and then pass on him. Pujols, Ryan Howard, Shawn Marcum, Logan Morrison(maybe Florida’s next stud) are a few they passed on. Baird and his scouting dept seemed to due a rather poor job of drafting local area talent, the talent that is the easiest, least expensive and sometimes least costly to sign.
Just look at the local drafts of Crow, Melville and Bauman over the last two drafts. Melville was paid over slot money but 1.25M didn’t seem all that much considering the rumor he was wanted 1st round money or was gonna sign with UNC. He might not have signed with many others other than the local guys he established a relationship with. Crow signed for 1.5 a major discount in his slot and much less than he was asking from the Nationals. Bauman took less in his slot even though it wasn’t much less. In the end this strategy is just a small thing it does pay small dividends. Ex. Braves and the many local studs they’ve had thru the years.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
where did I say Moore was worse than Baird?
by Will McDonald on Feb 21, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
I thought your whole point was to try to prove GMDM isn't excelling in the minors
any more than Baird.
I guess I don’t understand the point fo the excercise other than to say that Bairds group wasn’t as bad as people seem to think.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
Well it wasn't
And when Moore’s only selling point is how vastly superior his minor league performance supposedly is, that is interesting to know.
I think the point is that Moore isn't necessarily living up to his billing
The minor leagues are not as full of talent as we have been lead to believe, that’s all. And he’s done an especially poor job of drafting position players. With Moose and Hosmer we have a potential 1B/DH combo there, when we could have drafted someone like Gordon Beckham or Buster Posey. Or drafted Wieters over Moustakas who we knew wouldn’t stick at SS, likely won’t stay at 3B, and is probably at best a corner outfield guy that hopefully is better than Jason Bay. Moose’s positional talk reminds me a lot of Billy Butler, though Moose has a lot of weight to put on to reach that comparison physically (he’s trying from the pics I’ve seen). The pitching has been good, but it’s also unfair to compare big name MLB guys from this part of the country, with the new draft guys that are local. It doesn’t mean they will pan out any better than any other draft pick. In fact, I wonder how many local guys were complete busts that we passed over?
The facts are they didn't scout the area much at all.
And while that is such a small part of the game it would pay nicely. I’m not saying that’s the only way they can succeed but it sure wasn’t a part of Ladnier regime. Taking 2 kids (1 Mo., 1KS) from ‘03 on that tells me they just didn’t scout it much at all.
I’m gonna wait to pass judgement on Moose after this season(hitting environment) but apparently GMDM didn’t agree with the strategy of taking Moose and Hosmer all that much or maybe Ladnier would still have his job.
The pitchers are probably a little overrated and the hitters probably a little underrated. AA could be a better way to judge both.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
I guess I don't understand how you know they didn't scout MO and KS
They knew about Pujols, but sounds like they thought he would fall a few more rounds and decided to wait. If they had known he would turn out to be this elite, he would have been drafted a lot higher obviously.
I wish the Royals would get better at drafting positional prospects. I’m tired of looking at the minors and seeing a complete wasteland on the diamond except for the pitching. I realize that’s partly due to the park factors, but if you like guys like Derrick Robinson, god help you, because you’re gonna need it. Hopefully, that’s why Ladnier is gone.
Moore has done a better job, overall, than Baird
but the gap isn’t as large as most people think…
the bottom line is, having the 10th best system, for the Royals, isn’t good enough, because they’re still going to have the 20th-30th highest payroll, etc. they need to be top 5, consistently
by Will McDonald on Feb 21, 2010 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
one thing in moore's favor
If some of his guys have a good or great 2010, and we have another good draft, then we could start building towards a top flight system for 2011-2012
what annoys me is that we seemingly had a few years there were things seemed stalled, and bad ML level moves led to a lack of additional trades helping depth
by Will McDonald on Feb 21, 2010 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
I think another point that may have been implied
It’s year five of Moore’s tenure. The fact that he’s being compared with Baird at all at this point is somewhat damning. I think we all expected his handling of the major league team to be head and shoulders above Baird.
Unless I'm wrong...
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"somewhat" = "utterly"
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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 22, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Just seems to me they would've taken a few more than 2 in 5 years if
they were scouting the area. I agree with the positional player aspect and I disagree with this regimes philosophy in general in terms of the positional athletes they take. I’m hoping Picollo is going to change that.
I don't know how to put this but I'm kind of a big deal.
I disagree with saying part of the GM's job is to "sell" the owner on spending money on the draft
If the owner in a small market is that STUPID to not realize that himself, then he DESERVES to own a perennial doormat.
Of course, one could argue that this particular owner doesn’t give a shit about winning in the first place – only making a profit while begrudgingly keeping a promise to Mr K to keep the team in KC.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
a few things
-I haven’t gone back and looked at the list, but it seemed like the minor leagues under Baird were always very top heavy-a high ranking 1st rounder (Greinke, Gordon, Butler) and then things fell off pretty quick after that. Our system is deeper now but currently without a top 10 or even top 20 prospect (although that could change quickly once the season begins).
-One thing to keep in mind when comparing the Baird/Moore eras-we had the same scouting director from around 2001 until last year (Deric Ladnier). In other words, the same guy oversaw drafting Greinke, Gordon, Butler, Hochevar, Moustakas and Hosmer. There were some good drafts in there (2008) and some bad drafts (2006). Now JJ Picollo runs the draft and, for 2009 at least, it showed a different philosophy.
-It is really hard to overestimate how important 2010 is, collectively, for our prospects. A lot of our top prospects are facing some important hurdles-moving to a hitters league (Monty and Duffy), bouncing back from offensive woes (Moose and Hosmer), getting their first full season of pro ball in (Myers, Crow, Arguelles, Dwyer). I’m looking forward to the minor league season more than the major league season.
yea
basically I’ve had to stop using dashes
I think you are right… the Royals didn’t totally bomb on every high pick … but they really didn’t seem to pull out many finds from later rounds
like if you look at Sickels’ top Royal prospects for 2006, we’ve got Gordon & Butler and then a bunch of guys who STILL haven’t contributed really at the ML level
by Will McDonald on Feb 21, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
ghosts
- …. .- – … .— …. .- – … …. . … .- .. -..
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Feb 23, 2010 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
It takes almost 10 years to completely turn around a system.
We have to sign sign 16 year olds to compete in Latin America. Basically, Moore has done a really good job spending heavily in the farm system, but two of his premier players have exhibited major flaws.
If Moose and Hosmer both bounce back, we could easily have a top 5 system. I’m not holding my breath on Moose learning any patience at the plate, but I’m hopeful that Hosmer will have a great year now that he’s healthy and I have read reports that Moose looks much more fit this Spring Training (confirmation anyone?).
In sum, Moore has done very poorly on Major League acquisitions, but I think you’re really stretching to try to discredit the amount of work that has been done with the minor league system. That’s not exclusively Moore’s doing by any mean, but I don’t think you have any legitimate beef with the state of the minor league system.
that is a valid point
but I wonder if you aren’t overstating the case just a little bit
we are in year five here. five
by Will McDonald on Feb 21, 2010 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
i'm not going to blame him for the '06 draft
although, he was capable of international signings that year and i want to credit him with firing the man who chose moustakas over weiters.
overall, i’ve really liked the last two drafts. hopefully hosmer’s ’09 was just from fluky maladies.
2009 was just a lost year for Hosmer
tons of weird stuff going on all over the place
2010 is big for him
by Will McDonald on Feb 22, 2010 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Year 5
I think that is a little misleading, Dayton has been in charge of 3 drafts (assuming he had no hand in ‘06 draft) and 4-1/2 years to bring in minor league talent via international market and trades. I don’t think that is enough time to fill a nearly empty system to get into the elite level or make a judgement that it Dayton in not as good as assumed in this area.
You can argue that Baird was not as bad as assumed, but I think you are underplaying that to much, what I see in those rankings is a system with 2 top 25 talents in Gordon and Butler and almost nothing else to offer, the minute those 2 graduated to the big leagues the rankings fall off a cliff. This significantly declines prior to Dayton really having much time to start stocking the system. You can see the steady improvement after that year, and as many people have indicated on here and other places this year could be huge and push the system to near the top of the rankings for next year.
by NU Blackshirts on Feb 22, 2010 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
I'm giving Moore the benefit of the doubt on the 2006 draft
He says Schuerholz didn’t want him taking part in that draft, that it was a condition on letting him negotiate with the Royals, and I just think the conspiracy theory that Moore secretly told Ladnier to draft Hochevar is out of character for Moore (his ‘moral fiber’, if anything, is too strong). So he had half of 06 to work with the system, without a draft. So years-with-control-of-draft include 07, 08, and 09. I think if you want to italicize the word ‘five’ under ‘years building the minor leagues,’ you should be talking five drafts, or else it’s a little misleading to someone who doesn’t know the back story. What we’re really talking about here is three drafts.
In two of those drafts, Moore passed over some really good college players in favor of Moose and Hosmer, which does seem like a blunder. Missing on Wieters and Gordon Beckham just looks bad, no doubt. On the other hand, you didn’t have a ton of criticism in the baseball community for the Moose pick, and although you had some people scratching their heads over the Hoz pick, the criticism wasn’t resounding. Outside criticism is not a way to judge picks, but at least it’s an indicator that the Royals weren’t making ridiculous moves; they made two defensible decisions in those picks, and we haven’t had enough time to fully judge them yet.
Last year, more than one baseball publication included the Royals’ draft among the top five—for whatever that’s worth (not much, but still)—and I believe most felt we had a very strong draft in ‘08. The simple law of averages says that if you spend big money in the first three rounds of the draft—every year—and you aren’t making outlandish picks, which the Royals aren’t, then you’re going to wind up with some all stars out of sheer probability. Credit Baird with not passing on Gordon, who was probably the most obvious pick in Royals history, and for nailing Butler, which was just a great pick, but outside of those two I don’t recall him spending top dollar or making picks anyone considered reasonable. I also don’t recall virtually any dealings in Latin America or Asia (hello Hipolito Pichardo). Things are different now, very different. We’re placing bigger bets at the craps table—we’re putting hundreds of dollars on 6’s and 8’s, instead of 5 dollars on a horn bet. We’re bound to hit on some of them (this message was NOT brought to you by the pro-Moore institute. I’m just sayin’).
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by jackie ballgame on Feb 23, 2010 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
International guys mean a lot
and take a LONG time to develop. The 2007 bonus babies (like Beltre and Espinol) may finally play full season ball for the first time this year, three years after being signed (and that’s “may,” there’s no guarantee). To get them to the majors by 22 or so, which is still quite young, requires 6 or 7 years of development. And the Royals were absolutely barren of any international talent. The last homegrown (i.e international free agent signed by the Royals) to make any impact is who, Carlos Febles? Baird accepted that he could not compete for Dominican players instead of convincing Glass otherwise, and instead tried to plumb “untested” (which equals not very good at baseball) markets like Australia (Huber NOW!) and South Africa (anyone remember Barry Armitage? I didn’t think so). Moore’s efforts in Latin America and, to a lesser extent, the Pacific Rim, are admirable.
Of course, he’s just doing what any GM of any other organization would have been doing all along. Thus, “superior to Baird” doesn’t equate to “good at developing a system.”
That seems like a more appropriate name.
by CentralChamps20?? on Feb 21, 2010 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Huber came over in a trade with Baltimore
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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 21, 2010 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
That's right, I'd forgotten that
Was he also in the Mets system at one point?
That seems like a more appropriate name.
by CentralChamps20?? on Feb 22, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
we traded for him from the mets
for jose bautista
by Will McDonald on Feb 22, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
I remember Barry Armitage. And isn't Dylan Lindsay (sp?) South African?
I get your point. I’m just teasing.
Wow
I have absolutely no independent recollection of the Lindsay signing at all. Where did he play last year?
That seems like a more appropriate name.
by CentralChamps20?? on Feb 22, 2010 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
He didn't play... but signed.
he graduated from HS this last year and I believe he’ll be in Arizona this year. Isn’t that correct?
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He didn't
Still at HS in South Africa. Pitched an inning at the WBC though.
by kcbottom9th on Feb 22, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
so it will be okay for us to criticize Moore's development skills in... 2017?
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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 22, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
I am very unclear as to what you mean by "Moore's development skills."
Moore is a GM. He is not the one doing all the scouting. He scouts as well, I’m sure, but the overall job of the GM is to run the franchise. That encompasses overseeing player scouting and development.
As stated above by nwroyal, JJ Picollo now runs the draft. To the end that you have been disappointed with the Hochevar, Moose, and Hosmer, you should be happy that Moore made that change and give him credit for doing so.
With my ten year comment, I do not mean to suggest Moore can’t be evaluated off of the drafts he’s put together. Rather, I suggest that you look at his individual drafts compared to others because he inherited a system without much depth and void of any premier international talent (that should be peaking right now). It simply takes a very long time to completely turn around a system because so many teams have a huge head start. The only way you can catch up is to spend more (which we are doing) and evaluate better (but notice here that the standard has shifted to an expectation that we will out-scout everyone… making us the very best, which is not a reasonable expectation, IMO).
I think Moore has drafted very well. I am very hopeful Hosmer will rebound which would make for 2 exemplary drafts in a row (2008 and 2009).
Great Article
Add me to the list of the slightly disappointed. I thought the minor leagues would be ranked higher.
I do like the point in one of the comments above about the change in scouting directors (from Ladnier to Picollo).
I’m not anybody important or specifically knowledgeable about baseball and I have been a defender of Dayton Moore. However, I am personally going to make a personal reassessment right after this years trade deadline. By that time we should know if the higher level minor league talent is producing, see the latest draft, and also take into account any new talent that needs to be brought in from trades. Much of the current roster doesn’t make any sense long term. If anyone of a half dozen players produces on the Major League roster this year, they need to be traded. By the trade deadline I (or more importantly qualified individuals) should have a good idea of whether there is any real hope for improvement next year. If not, I’ll jump all over the fire Dayton Moore bandwagon.
by Chyladin on Feb 21, 2010 10:41 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
spot on, will
i too have defended dm under the belief that he was going to build a top-notch farm system, and to see us at 17th is very disheartening.
we should really start to see some guys coming up from the minors REAL SOON or he is in trouble, IMO.
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by Home Run Tony Cogan on Feb 21, 2010 10:46 PM EST reply actions
I don't think he's in any real dangerof getting fired
unless the major league team is just HORRIBLE and loses 105 games or something
by Will McDonald on Feb 21, 2010 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
I think the fact that last season was a bust because of injuries
and there wasn’t apparently anyone in Omaha who could be brought up to fill in, that this says more about the state of the minor league system. Other teams seem to be able to bring up capable replacements. Last season was disappointing in that way.
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
But one must remember Moore has gone HS heavy in drafts
This means that there wouldn’t be a lot of players ready to be called up as a lot of the HS guys go one level at a time.
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and I think that could easily be a discussion point about Moore and his plan.
When he took over, he already a few pieces that were looking good for the future. If he would have went with college players over the high school kids, they could be ready now and this team would probably be a lot closer to contention.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.
just a quick ultimately unimportant question for people who know much about pre-draft stuff
Why is Manny Machado wearing a Royals jersey in this photo? Is this a workout with the Royals? Does he play in one of those leagues where the mimic the mlb’s jerseys?
Playing devil's advocate
Will, did you consider that Moore felt he basically had to clean house with the scouting and player development personnel as well?
What I’m getting at: If the system was generally ranked in the 20s prior to Moore arriving, then he was probably correct in deciding the entire culture had to change. This would include large turnover in scouts, cross-checkers, player development managers, minor league coaches, etc. etc. Just like trying to replenish the actual player talent, replenishing the support system can’t happen overnight either.
I realize 5 years seems like a long time – but I see some significant progress in the minors. Is it all we hoped it would be? Well, maybe not, but maybe it really is and we just don’t realize it yet Maybe all the seeds are in place for this system to start churning out prospects like Tampa Bay.
All along, I’ve maintained that it would take a minimum of 6 years to get the minors just to the point that it should routinely have been at – especially with the early emphasis on drafting HS players. I think it just may be another 2 or 3 years past the initial 6 before the system could be expected to excel enough to be perennial top 5 or 10 in baseball.
Now, Moore has been horrible at working the Major League roster. Not much defending him there.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
you may be right
but it still seems like he took a long time to replace everyone… why did he keep Ladiner around for as long as he did?
moore got off to a quick start, he made a bazillion moves during his first 3 months on the job in 2006, and since then he’s slowed down a ton… then we had 2008-9, when it seemed like nothing really happened
by Will McDonald on Feb 22, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
When the last time Moore
Traded away an established player for a genuine prospect? I think it is Dotel for Davies. In 2007. For a team as bad as the Royals that is shocking.
by kcbottom9th on Feb 22, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
And even Davies had more than a little MLB time
Before that you are looking at Affeldt/Shealy in 2006.
by kcbottom9th on Feb 22, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
What established players have been on the roster and were expandable that could fetch a genuine propect? Are you in favor of trading guys like soria, dejesus, greinke, gordon, butler to get prospects?
by NU Blackshirts on Feb 22, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
he never traded Grudz
he traded Nunez and Ramon Ramirez for veterans rather than prospects
he’s yet to trade Meche, or DeJesus, or Soria, etc
he traded Teahen, for Getz (kinda a prospect in some sense) and Fields (who isn’t realy)
by Will McDonald on Feb 22, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
I get the feeling
that Fields is kind of similar to what Shealy was (there’s a chance for some upside, but not much)
if he's anything like Shealy
the team will be sure to bury him after his first slump so as to make sure and “get the most” out of the trade
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.
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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 22, 2010 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
could have traded
Mahay, Olivo, Buck, German, Peralta, or Gobble. He probably wouldn’t have gotten anything substantial but, instead, got nothing for any of them.
He did get Paulino for the ghost of HoRam (of whom I’ll avoid further discussion).
Will be interesting to see BP's ranking
I’ve been charting their “top 11”s; so far, out of 25 teams, only TB has more elite prospects than KC.
(I’m calling “5 star” and “4 star” prospects elite). TB has 7, KC and some others have 5.
Granted, all of KC’s are “4 star” – but I really doubt there was ever a time in the previous regime’s tenure that KC had that much depth.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
I'm not too worried about the minor league system
Most of the Moore draftees are still in the lower classes, where they can be ‘interesting’ due to upside, but really can’t have ‘proven’ anything. That’s especially true for pitchers, and pitchers make up a majority of the Royals’ minor league talent. If Moose and Hosmer had good seasons last year, the minor leagues would widely be seen as a great success. They didn’t, and that matters for where they stand as prospects and where the system ranks, but one year from two players is just too small a sample size to get too worked up over. If the system doesn’t start consistently bearing fruit by late 2011/early 2012, the nail should be in the coffin for Moore’s tenure as a GM.
2011
is the “2007 draft picks have to be here by now” year. That’s 4-5 years of development (on average, 2007=sign and play short season ball, 2008=low A/high A, 2009=high A/AA; 2010=AA/AAA). That should be enough for even HS prospects who are actually going to be good. The problem with that draft is right now there is exactly one player projecting on the advanced side of that curve: 10th round RP Greg Holland, who got a taste of Omaha last year and will be the only 2007 draft pick starting the season in Omaha. Moose, Duffy, Lough and Clint Robinson (why take so long with a college bat? If he’s good enough, he should have been moved faster) are the only other picks from that draft realistically “on schedule” to play at AA this year. There are still a bunch of kids from that draft in the system (which is good), but injury (Hayenga, Matt Mitchell), really slow development of raw talent (Richardson, Patrick Norris?, Sean McCauley) or just terrible picks (Sam Runion, Mitch Hodge, Adrian Ortiz) means that a lot of guys are just hitting either low A or high A ball.
Again, as Will has said, this is a huge year for the system, and a big part of that is anyone from Moore’s first draft class who is going to contribute at the major league level has to really stand out this year.
That seems like a more appropriate name.
by CentralChamps20?? on Feb 22, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
I feel that in 2011 we will be talking about the same thing
and then saying wait until 2013 or 2015. My problem with DM is that he past up some college stars who are already in the bigs to take Hochy, Moose, and Hosey. Yes, it is great to build the system but jewel on the crown is for the big league club to be a winner. You can build the minors all you want with “prospects” but if none of them make it to the bigs then we have wasted another couple seasons. In comes another GM and he will feed us another load of bull. I am with Will that this is a huge year for the system if the two “can’t miss” star prospects do miss… we are in trouble.
if we're saying "wait for 2013 or 2015"
it will be for a different reason. like centralchamps said, 2011 is the year that moore’s picks (and the money that went into them) should be filling out all levels of the system, and no excuses will be left. if we’re still saying “wait a coupe more years,” it will be because the team just sucks and/or there is a potential difference-maker coming up.
He's Far From
A miss so far. An OPS+ of 109 batting mostly in the bottom of a steaming pile of a batting order was actually pretty impressive. Last year was an injury season, so this year is the big one for him. If he doesn’t improve on 2008 at the plate and in the field (and he was very good at 3B in 2007), then we can start to worry about a “miss”.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 23, 2010 6:58 PM EST up reply actions























