Mike Sweeney's Time in Kansas City Offers Dark Perspective on Mauer Deal
The baseball world is abuzz with the news that Joe Mauer will be a Twin for a very very very long time. Many people have and will viewed this contract situation as some kind of battle for baseball's soul, as the local hero Joe Mauer must be not allowed to become a Yankee or Red Sox (never quite mind what Mauer might personally want, one way or the other). Over the next few days, we can expect quite a number of "this is good for baseball" stories. I'm sure Poz is writing one now. Mauer will talk on Monday afternoon about how much he loves Minnesota, and the fans will flood message boards, blogs, and talk radio with similar sentiments.
But there's still no way of knowing how everyone will feel about this contract in 2013, or 2015, and especially not in 2017 and 2018. Reportedly, Mauer's contract is for $184 million dollars, and will cover 2011-2018, his age 28-35 seasons. That comes out to $23 million dollars annually.
Mauer is going to be paid fantastically well, and while I expect that this deal will be framed as having some kind of "hometown discount", considering where all the leverage in the negotiations lied, it looks more like a hometown premium.
As a Royals fan, I suppose I'm expected to feel good about this situation, as I must be resentful towards the bigger market clubs, and happy that Mauer stayed in the Midwest. However, that isn't really my reaction. Instead, I think about Mike Sweeney, and what happened when he signed his big contract in 2003. That contract looked great (or at least fair) at the time, and quite quickly transformed into a poison pill. By the end, a large percentage of Royals fans weren't happy that they'd been able to "lock up" Sweeney as a Royal. Instead, they resented his salary, and viewed him as a millstone on the franchise's hopes.
Sweeney's contract was initially for 2003-4, and if the Royals finished over .500 in one of those seasons, it would become a contract that lasted through 2007. The salary was set at $11 million per year. When the Royals went 83-79 in 2003, there was a general feeling amongst the game's romantically-inclined cognoscenti that the greatest winner was the Royals fans, who would now get to have Sweeney in a Royal uniform for the foreseeable future.
Prior to signing the first version of the contract in 2003, Sweeney was a career .309/.379/.501 hitter. However, from 1999-2002, Sweeney was even better, hitting .324/.396/.535. He averaged 146 games per season during that period. He brought little to the table in terms of positional value, defense, or baserunning, but he was one of the game's elite hitters. On the whole, Sweeney's contract would cover his age 29-33 seasons.
We know how the rest of the story turned out. Sweeney's performance slipped as he aged, and his health deteriorated. Between 2003-2007, the period in which he was paid $11 million dollars per season, Sweeney hit .284/.353/.476. Since we're talking about how these deals are received by casual or mainstream fans, that dip in batting average is especially important. Why wasn't Sweeney a .300 hitter anymore? What happened to those RBIs in the middle of the order?
In fact, the negativity surrounding Sweeney's performance was so prevalent that its surprising to see how non-terrible his numbers actually were. Sweeney's performance during that time wasn't terrible, it was merely mediocre for a slow, no-defense 1B. That wasn't what the Royals Fans Yahoo Group I was a member of during those years thought.
Of course, that was only half the story. Crippled by chronic back problems, Sweeney averaged 94 games played during those five seasons. Seemingly, he was always either on the verge of heading towards the DL, or just coming back from it. In 2006, Sweeney played in just 60 games, and in a sense his career as someone considered an impact every day player was over. Just three years before he was someone who was part of the Royals supposedly remaining viable in Kansas City.
We aren't at a point in our society where athletes can sit on the DL, continue to get paid, and have people be terribly understanding. The same people that would have screamed bloody murder if Sweeney had signed with the Yankees in 2005 (had his extension not vested) were now calling him "Mike Weenie" and questioning his toughness. As the Royals bottomed out in 2005 and 2006, his $11 million dollar salary was close to a third of the team's roster, and it certainly wasn't viewed as the team's commitment to winning. It was seen by quite a few as an encumbrance to winning, and a sign of the team's stupidity and bad luck.
Joe Mauer is better than Mike Sweeney. He plays a premium position well, and his a similar hitter. His career line is .327/.408/.483. Like Sweeney, he derives a lot of his peak value from batting average, and that isn't the happiest skill for giant guys as they age. He's also coming off of a sublime 2009 season. However, he is also a catcher, and his contract is considerably longer than Sweeney's was.
Mauer is also thought of as a great guy. So was/is Mike Sweeney. Sweeney was a very religious, devoted family man, who remained involved in the KC community and never once did anything that anyone complained about. It didn't matter. It won't matter for Mauer either.
As a baseball contract, this is a fascinating gamble by the Twins. It looks very risky from a baseball sense, and riskier than many think from a PR one. When it comes to "what it means to baseball in Minnesota" or "proving the overall health of the game" or all that kind of hooey, I would argue we all need to slow those pronouncements down. Things change and then they change again. And then they change again. The perception of the casual or mainstream fan is extremely fickle, so I'd be very hesitant to consider making them happy tomorrow much of a long term commodity.
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Bingo. The Sweeney
Contract was the first thing that came to my mind when I read this. Meche is about to become another one if we don’t flip him at the deadline or earlier.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Mar 21, 2010 10:17 PM EDT reply actions
and don't get me wrong
I don’t think Sweeney deserved to be criticized, if anything , he probably rushed too hard to come back and it led to lingering problems
but his injuries angered many people and he became something of a divisive figure
by Will McDonald on Mar 21, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Are we ignoring
the underlying implications of PED use here?
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the implications constantly made by fans you mean?
by Will McDonald on Mar 22, 2010 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, those.
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I think you can add that to my argument
despite no evidence, Sweeney was seen as a steroid user
by Will McDonald on Mar 22, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
You mean...
the part where if Sweeney had taken steroids he possibly (or even probably) would have stayed healthy and continued his peak performances, or bettered them, through all the years of his contract? The part where Mike chose to follow his moral views instead of risking chemical damage to his body to “help the team?” Is that the part we’re talking about? Because the other view is uneducated and asinine.
your assumption that he didnt use is just as uneducated or asinine as the opposite view
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Mar 22, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
except
THAT WAS ALWAYS HIS STANCE AND HAS NEVER CHANGED! Apparently you are just trying to make a point, that we just don’t know about anybody. Which is fine. But something comes out about Sweeney and the Sweeney haters have to add in a dig when they have NOTHING to base it on. And when you look at it case by case with the players that were using, Sweeney has the OPPOSITE career path.
So next time, look up “uneducated” and “asinine” before you use them poorly.
his career path wasnt all that different from Juan Gonzalez
and Juan Gone was fingered by Canseco, who’s been pretty on the money, as a roider.
Raffy Palmeiro had his stance and it never changed…until he got caught.
Assuming that anyone did or did not use steroids without any factual evidence of either, is both uneducated and asinine…and you did that with Sweeney. You’re no different than those who attribute his shittiness to health issues related to steroids.
I am in fact a Sweeney hater, but it’s not really his fault…I was against the contract from the beginning b/c i felt it’d cost us Beltran
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Mar 23, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
i never said it was rational
say you’re choosing b/w two cars….and you choose one, and it a piece….breaks down all the time, while the other one performs better and never has issues, dont you hate the one you bought?
Thats how I look at it
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Mar 23, 2010 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure you might hate the car
I suppose I would just look at it as being unlucky because I know a guy that has the same car and he never had any issues.
Stupid analogy.
Here’s the real one:
If someone bought you a car, and instead of buying you the $30K good car that performs well and never has issues, they insist on buying you the $30K piece that breaks down all the time…
Do you hate the car, or the mofo who wouldn’t let you pick which car you wanted?
This space for rent.
Really?
His career was nowhere close to the same as Juan Gone. Or Raffy. And it IS EDUCATED to compare careers and to get the word from people around the players at the time and NONE OF THEM said he did it. How else is anybody supposed to know? Using all the info that is out there, we are to come to the conclusion that Mike Sweeney was clean. When more info arises, let me know.
don't you think that allegations would have come out against him by now?
he peaked in his late 20s, then struggled with injuries in his 30s and declined
that describes 90% of the guys who ever played baseball
by Will McDonald on Mar 23, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The part that makes me feel the happiest
is that the taxpayers effectively footed much of the bill for the deal
which is, at “best,” market value,
There’s no long-term discount… basically, if Mauer performs up to general. projections, with no significant time due to injury, it’s even., an “average” deal. I hope Poz knows enough not to get sentimental. Mauer and his agent got everything they could from the Twins, as they have every right to do.
On the other hand, it’s not like he plays a position that causes a great deal of attrition, and it’s not like the team hasn’t talked about moving him off of it before, and it’s not like he’s missed time with injuries recently, and it’s about the same as the Teixeira contract, and the Twins can totally absorb risk like the Yankees…
…and hey, one HoF level talent can totally carry a team, just as the early 00 Rangers. Maybe Mauer can start telling the Twins which pitchers to sign.
But hey, Johnny Bench, likely the great major league catcher of all time, was AWESOME in his mid-30’s. And by “Awesome,” I mean “pretty much out of baseball.”
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scale of 1-10 how positive is Poz on this?
by Will McDonald on Mar 21, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
as hard as I am on Poz sometimes (and only because I hold him to a higher standard than the Rosenthals, etc.), I actually don’t think I’ve read anything of his on the Mauer contract. Yeah, he definitely celebrated Mauer’s great 2009 a LOT, but he’s pretty shrewd — I don’ t think he’ll be overly sentimental about this. He doesn’t write stuff like “Dude HAS to stay in Small Town.”
I’ll be happy if he avoids pretending like Mauer did the Twins a favor here. If anything, the Twins (well, the taxpayers) did the bending over here.
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 21, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
very good point
Poz is just a very interesting writer. He’s one of the most shrewd/forward thinking columnists out there, but most people love him because of his purple prose/soul of baseball type stuff (which is fine, just not my cup of tea). that’s definitely the side that got him the SI gig.
by Will McDonald on Mar 21, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
He'll Be An
Awesome platoon DH.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Mar 21, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
the other thing is...
I’m not sure how much of an attendance spike the Twins will have. They are umm, opening a new park this year anyway.
We could do an analysis of single-contract attendance spikes...
…if we could isolate the variables.
Problem is, these huge contracts typically happen in relatively saturated markets (are we really going to get higher attendance in NY or BOS?) or coincide some other event (Meche/Greinke and the refurb’ed K).
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It ain't the tickets
It’s the joisees.
We always did feel the same, We just saw it from a different point of view, Tangled up in blue.
-Bob Dylan
by Royal Kingdom on Mar 22, 2010 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I love how people still assert the "single player = spike theory"
20+ years after Bill James dismantled it in the case of Nolan Ryan
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 22, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Joe Mauer will not be a 6-7 WAR player for nine years.
Right?
Go Royals!
I guess its possible
but I’d take the under
by Will McDonald on Mar 21, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Twins are gambling that the baseball market rebounds quite a bit
which it might
of course, it might rebound, and then slump again in 2014
I mean, for something like this, 2018 is like a thousand years from now
by Will McDonald on Mar 21, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with diagnosing this deal is definately the time period.
While the deal is “average” right now, if the economy rebounds and the price of a win jumps back to 4.5 million, then this deal isn’t horrible. Add in inflation, bump the cost to 5.5 at the end of the contract and its entirely possible that even if Mauer does become a DH his ~4 batting Wins will provide enough to justify the contract.
But those are ifs. If the market doesn’t rebound or if inflation slows down or if Mauers bat drops then the twins are looking at a 2 win DH making a third of their yearly payroll for those last couple of years.
I refuse to set up a signature....DAMMIT
Frankly, I don't care for the whole
“small team gets a big time player for a huge contract” angle. The discussion somewhat assumes that small teams have some responsibility for their inability to compete on the contract scale. If anything, it highlights a greater inequity in the MLB, but I’m not about to cover that ground now.
The better angle, and Will does a great job here, is the conversation of what happens when a small payroll team commits this much to one guy…and he fails. Now, I don’t believe for a second that Mauer will ever descend as fast as Sweeney did, but man. That would probably devastate that team for YEARS.
Any news of the Twins protecting themselves from a Sweeney-like decline, Tiger-like escapades, or some other crazy provisions to get themselves out of the contract if necessary?
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too early to tell now
the other thing is, Minnesota isn’t that small of a market, and with a new stadium, they might be able to start spending at a St Louis level or something
by Will McDonald on Mar 22, 2010 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Their payroll
I believe is right around $100 mill for this year.
They should have been at a St. Louis level of spending for awhile. I think MPLS/STP is a larger metro area, and the Twins have a market that extends well into Iowa and the Dakotas.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Mar 22, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Minneapolis' metro area is larger (per Wikipedia)
Minny: 3,502.891
STL: 2,816,710
That gap may be narrowed this year if enough people in St. Louis are motivated enough to sing, rap, dance, fill out their 2010 Census forms, and generally just party their asses off. The colder weather in Minneapolis may lead to fewer Census Form Parties up there, so St. Louis might catch up.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Mar 22, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
than St. Louis?
I’d sure think so but don’t know for sure.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.
Yes
Minny: $42,913
STL: $37,338
(According to this thread on city-data.com: http://www.city-data.com/forum/general-u-s/314570-us-metro-areas-ranked-per-capita.html)
However, I would think Minny’s real estate prices are also at least slightly higher, along with slightly higher prices for most everything else. Not to mention, Minny sports fans also have an NBA team and major college teams (in the metro area, as opposed to Mizzou or Illinois for STL) to spend their discretionary sports fan dollars on. Also, I would say the average Minneapolite (?…Minneapolician??) spends a LOT more money on the Vikings than someone from St. Louis spends on the Rams. St. Louis pretty much IS the Cardinals (from a sports perspective).
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Mar 22, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
And Twins fans aren't the best fans in baseball
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Mar 22, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Clearly not
Best Fans in Baseball, 2009
1. This guy:

2. Tony LaRussa (because in St. Louis you are always a fan first, an employee later…incidentally Tony is also #3 on the 2009 Best Fans of Puppies and Kittens list):

3. St. Louis Cardinal season ticket holders
4. St. Louis Cardinal partial plan season ticket holders
12 (tie). Minnesota Twins fans
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Mar 22, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes you have to take a chance
to lock up a special player. The problem is with the guaranteed contracts and the market inequity in Baseball. In a small market, teams are loath to do this-and not having these kinds of players in their late 20’s contributes to that inequity.
But, of course, so can long term, guaranteed deals. If the Yanks sign Mauer, and he hurts his back, they simply sign someone else and write it off to bad luck. For the Twins, it’s an albatross.
As far as Sweeney goes, it was just bad luck. I think every Royals fan was happy when he signed the deal, and those who were miffed were upset about the .500 team contingency. (which they never thought would kick in). Then the injuries happened and all anyone in KC could talk about was how much money Sweeney was making. My philosophy on this is that if you didn’t complain about the price when they signed him, you can’t complain after it goes wrong. (At least I can talk about Guillen-I hated that money from the get go.)
If we had signed Beltran and Damon to 5 year deals the year before we traded them, they would have paid off well. According to Fangraphs, Gil Meche has earned 47.5 million of his 55 million in only 3 years. Sometimes you have to step up and stick your neck out.
Mauer is the type of player you do that for. His top 5 baseball reference similarity scores through age 26 include 3 hall of fame catchers who were productive through age 34 (Dickey, Berra, Cochrane), as well as Derek Jeter. Of course it also includes Jason Kendall, but 4 out of 5 ain’t bad. I’ll take those odds. I will praise the Twins for having the balls to take a chance instead of hiding their head in the sand and telling each other horror stories about deals gone bad.
And I will hope that if my team ever has a decision to make about a special player like that, that they will show some of that same courage.
Is it safe?
To be fair,
before Mauer’s power outburst, Kendall was kind of similar in the way that a Chipotle Burrito is similar to a Taco Bell burrito.
Can we not put Meche and Damon in the same category as Beltran?
Also, while Meche wil probably pay off, what did “sticking the neck out” really get the Royals? Jack shit, really, since they didn’t win anything when he was good, he’s old and hurt and expensive now… You stick your neck out when you can win, and we now are smart enough to know that that was never going to happen with this crew. In the abstract, the Meche deal will come out around even money or a bit better. In the concrete, historically it will have been pointless for the Royals.
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 22, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Would you have thought by Year 4 or 5 of Meche, the Royals would be competitive?
I would have said yes. Sure, now it looks pointless because of all the other crappy moves, but at the time 2009-2011 looked fairly bright.
2012
is the new 2009.
Dayton Moore’s Royals – it all happens here…just a few years later than planned. Trust us.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Mar 22, 2010 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I definitely would have thought they would be competitive by now
especially because competitive in this division is .500
by Will McDonald on Mar 22, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
the seemingly unreachable goal
if you’ve been a GM of any team for 4+ years and .500 isn’t a realistic possibilty, you suck.
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 22, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
okay, that's maybe a bit extreme
but you get the idea
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 22, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a very big contract
but right now Joe Mauer is probably the second-best player in baseball after Pujols. If you have a player that good at such a key position, you have to keep him if at all possible.
Now the Twins have such a huge investment in Mauer that they’re going to ration out the use of those innings played at catcher, which is what’s most likely to wear him out in the long run. They might use him at catcher, say, in their 100 most important games, and in the outfield or as DH in lower-leverage games. That lowers his short-term value a little, but might increase his long-term value a lot.
Effectively, they’ve bet their future for the next decade on one player. If there’s any player you would want to do that on, Mauer’s an excellent choice. As Carlos Beltrán and Johnny Damon would have been for the Royals.
It's pronounced Poo-ZHOLS in Catalan.
second best player in baseball?
Even putting contracts aside, did Evan Longoria and Zack Greinke die this weekend?
They’re just as good. Oh, and younger.
Mauer’s great, and right up there, but seriously, straight up, I would take Evan Longoria over him, and I don’t even think I’d have to think about it that long. MAYBE Mauer is a bit more valuable at the moment (better bat, good defefensive catcher), but Longoria’s younger, is one of the premiere defensive players in the game, doesn’t have the single-season playing time limitations a catcher does, and isn’t likely to suffer catcher attrition like Mauer.
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 22, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
beltran was the guy to thrw the house at, obviously
but i never got the sense the Rs viewed him that way
I think they saw a continuum of similar guys: Damon, Dye, Sweeney, Beltran, and were happy just to be able to keep 1 around
then again its been so long since Damon was a Royal, I can’t really remember how good he was defensively
did the royals attempt to sign Beltran to a “we buy out some of your arb years” type contract? I don’t remember much of that at the time
by Will McDonald on Mar 22, 2010 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
of course, the Royals going to arb against Beltran in 03 probably didn't help matters
but hey, the royals won, so I hope saving that $1 million was worth it
by Will McDonald on Mar 22, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they always quested Beltran's attitude
And maybe for good reason. There was that rehab issue early in his career, and I think in general there is an unfair perception that Latin American guys don’t try as hard.
Sweeney was a guy that obviously worked hard, was popular, and as a guy with much more proficient English (and whiter) was much more marketable.
I don’t recall the Royals negotiating with Beltran on a long-term deal til like 2002 or 2003. And the deals they offered him were way under market value.
I could be way off, but I recally Damon being pretty amazing defensively when he was with the Royals (aside from the arm)
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Mar 22, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Damon was adequate in center
and great in left
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 22, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Beltran should have questioned the Royals attitude, not the other way around!
Remember when Beltran used that tennis ball throwing contraption one off season to train his vision, and he took another leap forward, for which he attributed in part to said machine?
Then remember when HE HAD TO PAY FOR IT HIMSELF, because the damn team was TOO FUCKING CHEAP to buy one? (And, if I recall correctly, we’re talking somewhere around or lower than 100k)
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
I do remember
The vision plan under the Royals' health insurance
only covers one pair of new prescription eyeglasses or sunglasses per year. And it doesn’t cover expedited service or shipping.
"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae
"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie
by Sweep_the_Leg on Mar 22, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
From one of Rany's old posts
They did, and supposedly Baird was making progress, before Glass shot it down.
Unless I'm wrong...
My Twitter feed
I don't think the Royals
made an honest effort for Beltran. They arbed him and then made insulting offers. I think once Glass signed Sweeney, he had done what he thought he needed to do to say “Look, I will spend a little money”, but at the time he had no intention of building a team at all.
With Dye and Damon, they put their eggs in Damon’s basket and made a fair offer, but they made it a year too late, and JD had pie in the sky visions of his monetary value. (He did not get the type of deal he was looking for, but he won alot of games.) Knowing they were going to lose Damon, that put Glass into full dump mode and he ordered the Dye for Perez deal.
Dye would not have paid off very well, but trading him for Perez was the final nail in the coffin for the Royals respectabilty, and the lid is still shut.
Meche was an attempt to steal a little bit of respectability back, and it’s been a decent deal.
I lumped everyone in together, Matt, because of space. I use too many words anyway. It is obvious that, while we had some really good players, (Making a fair offer to Raul could not have hurt either) Carlos Beltran was the special one to really stick your neck out for and the Royals did not even try.
Is it safe?
Yeah, Beltran was (and is) awesome
I had always heard, like Top Ramen, that they tried to extend him
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 22, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought I heard a rumor once
That Dye was more than willing to sign a long-term extension here, but once Damon didn’t want to sign, the Royals said “f-it” and decided to ship both out of town.
Totally unsubstantiated of course.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
I remember Dye's willingness to stay as well
It seemed he was actually stunned to be traded because he was willing to deal to stay in KC.
I saw Beltran much differently. I don’t think either he or Damon (what do they have in common?) were ever going to sign to stay in KC regardless of the amount KC could have offered.
That seems like a more appropriate name.
by CentralChamps20?? on Mar 23, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That power surge last year
Scares me a little bit. His SLG% jumped 130 points over his career up to then. And that was 2400 odd PA’s, so it’s not like that was a false sample.
I actually hope for the Twins it works out, but it is one big gamble on their part.
I still question
Why lock up Nathan and Morneau and not Santana? I’d much rather have Mauer and Santana than Mauer, Morneau and Nathan.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Who knows what happened with Santana
but part of it may just be that as good at the Twins are at developing players (well, mostly pitchers), they’re kinda dumb when it comes to veterans
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 22, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
The Santana issue came up with the recently deceased Carl Pohlad when he was a notoriously stingy owner. Had he been around for this, it’s likely it may have not happened, either.
And Mauer and Morneau make a great core for this team. I know that watching the Royals play them was always more stressful when you saw that 3-4 pair coming up and there was one or two guys on base. It seemed like they would always hit someone in (or Mauer would get on and Morneau would belt one to bring them both in). Just bad luck this year on Nathan.
by MinnesotaRoyal on Mar 22, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Mauer and Morneau are a great core for the Twins
in the same way that Shane Victorino and Chase Utley are a great core for the Phillies
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 22, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I can see the royals doing the same thing
giving your closer a big money long term contract, then doing the same with a 1B, who also will likely play the same position as Mauer a lot of the time… sorta unwise
then again, maybe they knew Santana was unsignable at their ceiling
by Will McDonald on Mar 22, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it also possible
they had some fears about Santana’s durability long-term?
Murphy was an optimist.
by The Ol' Perfesser on Mar 22, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
So how much did the Twins cost themselves waiting until now?
$50 million? $60 million?
If a team is going to sign a star player to a long-term contract, it needs to do so before the player’s walk year because they lose the leverage of the cost controlled years. Plus, in Mauer’s case, the Twins waited until after his career year, which also cost the team millions.
Setting that issue aside, it is a fair deal under the circumstances, although the big risk is that Mauer has to catch 100 games most years for the Twins to do better than breaking even on the deal. If he has to DH fulltime, the contract starts heading toward fiasco status. It gets progressively better if he can play 1B, LF, or 3B.
I think it's okay for them
after all, they have plenty of other ways of saving money, with good, cost-controlled players like Jason Bartlett and Matt Garza… D’oh!
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 22, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I really liked the Span extension
They really need their minor league system to start producing those quality young cheap players again, so they do not have to pay for a Carl Pavano or Orlando Hudson.
At least the Twins are paying for a true elite player — this is not a Soriano, Wells, or Carlos Lee situation.
Span is pretty good.
But I remember reading something about him and facing a ton of fastballs last year. Probably John Dewan’s Stat of the Week. I would expect less fastballs this year, and hopefully Denard can make the adjustment.
Setting aside the issue of whether Mauer is the "right" kind of player for this type of deal,
what I take from this is a realization that when the Royals constantly declare that player “X” is too expensive, I can now call bullshit and have an argument to back me up.
Build the farm system up to the Twins standards – and then when the decison time comes for, say Greinke, or Butler, or Will Myers, or whomever – I don’t want to hear any more excuses from ownership.
Mr Glass, this is a pro sports team, not a retail store - run it like one!
The only problem with this analysis is that...
Mauer >>>>>>>>>>> Sweeney. We all loved Mike Sweeney and he is truly a good man, but he is not even in the same realm is Joe Mauer is.
The Twins being able to sign Mauer to such a big deal is just another example of how much of a better run organization they are than our poor Royals.
With all that said, Mauer will be under a lot of pressure to perform up to the contract….
If he has the wame WAR as Jeter, he will cost the Twins
40 million in underperformace in the contract, and the Twins would take that it in a heartbeat.
It is pretty unrealistic to think he will perform that highly for nine years as a catcher, and no chance at first or DH where he will spend a lot of time. It is a virtually impossible feat that he will play well enough to make the contract neutral.
Go Royals!
the comparison isn't in quality of player
it’s in relative size of contract to player quality
Now, I happen tot hink that Sweeney’s contract was a bit too high at the time, but the Twins paid pretty much what Mauer would be worth on the open market… so if he “underperforms” even just a bit each year… say, he’s only a 5.5 win player at the moment rather than 6.5, the Twins are going to be hurting.
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 23, 2010 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions
What's "organizational goodwill" worth?
It’s easy (well, for you—I, like Dayton, have no idea how you do it) to break it all down to $/performance, but a signing like that is more than just paying the player for the services of the player. A big part of that contract, just like Sweeney’s was, was to reward/respect the fans by doing whatever it takes to retain a fan favorite great player and to get whatever goodwill comes from doing that. Meche’s contract was similar—part of what was being paid for was the “respect” of being seen as competing for real free agents. I don’t know what these “intangibles” are worth, but organizations obviously see some value in it, and, because of its nature, it can’t be quantified.
(This is by no means an endorsement of such an approach. Hearing that Pirates fans were upset at getting rid of players like Jack Wilson last year made me think “Really? Cause you got so much out of them while they were here?”).
That seems like a more appropriate name.
by CentralChamps20?? on Mar 23, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Sweeney's a great guy
but I guess I don’t value that much, not as much as the organization seems to have done. I’ve been planning a Retrospective on his contract for when he (hopefully, for dignity’s sake) retires after Seattle cuts him this spring, and I’ll go over it then in detail somewhere.
In short, although they couldn’t have known injuries would totally derail his career, they still just paid him (the contract was signed in 2002) as if they thought he was either better than he’d shown so far, or as if he could keep repeating his 2001 performance several times, which, given that he was already in his late-20s, and was an athletically- and defensively-limited player, was highly unlikely.
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 23, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that part of what I wanted to say
was that today’s goodwill can easily become tomorrow’s ill-will
by Will McDonald on Mar 23, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Meanwhile, in a faraway town called San Francisco...
Perhaps few realized Barry Zito would implode the way he did after signing his seven-year deal in 2007. In short, I think you’re right. There’s no doubt of the precedence of similar massive deals that could easily be viewed from the other side of the spectrum by the time they conclude.
I wouldn’t put it exactly that way. He did have a performance decline from 2002 (.821) to 2004 (.500), but recovered some of his losses to a win-loss percentage of .615. The real dropoff came after he moved across the bay, down to a win-loss of .370 and a 5.15 ERA in 2008. His best year in SF was worse than his worst year in Oakland.
But in a larger sense, you’re right. All this argues against such a long-term deal, especially when the player in question is having some struggles.
It's a shame you posted this at the end of this thread's life.
It would be fun to watch this get torn apart.
In case you missed it on this site, pitcher wins are not indicative of talent or future success. What was Greinke’s record last year, and who was the best pitcher in baseball should be the 2 questions you need to shoot that down.
Um, everyone knew that was an incredibly stupid deal at the time
except, of course, Brian Sabean and probably Ned Colletti. Jim Hendry was probably fairly jealous, as well.
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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 23, 2010 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions



















