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Place to ask (potentially) stupid questions.

I know I'm not alone when I say that there are many regular contributors to this site that have far more knowledge about the World's Greatest Sport than I do.  Therefore, I thought it would be nice to have a forum to ask these smarter guys (or anybody, really) questions about baseball management theory, baseball/sports media, sabermetrics, etc.

Some of this might be kind of tiresome for some of you guys, but realize you're probably helping out a lot of grateful people.

Star-divide

- I have a vague understanding of certain advanced statistics but still don't know what exactly goes into them or specifically how or why they are more meaningful than traditional statistics.  Main examples: ERA+ and OPS+.  Help!

- This question is probably kind of ridiculous, but what is this Pitch F/X thing I keep hearing about?  Is it the ESPN thing where you can see each pitch via their Gameday thingy?  Is there some sort of newfangled technology involved?

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Also, I think everyone (including me) should feel free to ask any questions

There’s a lot of info there. If you have any other questions or would like any clarification or explanation, just ask and someone can probably answer you.

We can all learn from each other here about stats, tools, rules, terminology and more. And I think just about everyone is cool with someone who doesn’t know about something just asking so they can learn. Frankly, we all have a lot to learn.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Your use of fora!!

LOVE IT!

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by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Mar 5, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Great Banny interview on 810 today

Where he talks a bit about Pitch FX. Hopefully they’ll post the podcast soon.

Here’s my stupid question:

Can you roughly evaluate the value of the stolen base by:

Adding each stolen base to your total bases in your equation for SLG while at the same time

Subtracting each caught stealing to your on base total in your equation for OBA, then

Recalculating OPS? Is that a nice quick and dirty evaluative tool or is it too muddied up by the opportunity cost of losing the baserunner?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 5, 2010 1:28 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

It is best if done with wOBA. Never seen done with OPS

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by Jeff Zimmerman on Mar 5, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, it's incoporated into wOBA already

honsetly, there’s no reason to use OPS+ anymore — wRC+ is the same concept part adjusted, except with the proper weights for each events (and customized for each season), and includes SB/CS.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I Understand The

Inherent flaws in this measurement, but it gets close enough for me. I kind of understand the more advanced metrics, but I don’t want to know exactly how they’re made. Sausage and law come to mind.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Mar 8, 2010 7:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

Didn’t know baserunning was incorporated.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 5, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

For what it's worth, I think Fangraphs should remove SB/CS from wOBA

Baserunning value should be separated from hitting value, just so we can integrate the better baserunning stats from BPro.

by Graham MacAree on Mar 5, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually agree

in principle, it’s just that Retro was asking about whether it could be incorporated… it’s all lwts, right? One cool thing at FanGraphs would be to add a “include/remove SB” button up there with “show league averages,” etc.

Maybe once FanGraphs adds general baserunning stuff, SB/CS will shift to down there.

But I’m worried about falling behind EqATavg!

I’ll have to ask Appelman what it would take to get ROE on FGs, too.

Graham, does Stat Corner use the “original recipe” for wOBA, or did you shift to the custom lwts version (minus SB/CS)? Not that it’s a huge difference, just curious.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Pitch FX is the name given to the data collected at each park on each pitch

It is the same as the data used on gameday application. It is available to the public for free if you know how to get it. One good site is brooksbaseball.com to get the data.

I have done some work with it, but am still learning a bunch. Please ask more specific question and I will try to answer and if not, I will some that can.

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by Jeff Zimmerman on Mar 5, 2010 1:28 PM EST reply actions  

I'm under the impression...

that Pitch FX data is not available in table form. Am I right? Is there a place one can go to see the data in an easily digestible format?

by billexgordler on Mar 5, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Just to give a little more basic information

Pitch f/x will tell you for each pitch the exact velocity, degree and direction of movement of that pitch. It also has an algorithm which can identify from this data what type of pitch it was (fastball, curveball, etc.). From this you can develop all kinds of information about what kind of pitch a pitcher throws in a given situation, where he throws it, etc.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

The classification algorithm isn't really Pitch f/x

That’s GameDay’s use of the data. Pitch f/x is just the cameras the record the attributes for each pitch. In fact, the GameDay classification algorithm is pretty bad – many analysts have their own better algorithms.

And Pitch f/x isn’t exact – it definitely has some measurement error.

by vivaelpujols on Mar 7, 2010 1:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I have two questions:

1. Why is it almost always the case that, not long after I hear sweet musical notes throughout my house, someone knocks on my door, and where does that music come from?

 2. Can God make a boulder so heavy that even He cannot lift it?

I appreciate everybody’s help with these issues.

"Shot by my own men."

by StonewallPDS on Mar 5, 2010 1:48 PM EST reply actions  

My answers

1. You are experiencing the early stages of paranoid schizophrenia. You should enjoy it for a little while, but get some meds for it before the musical notes turn into a voice telling you to kill the mailman.

2. Of course she can, but only if she really wants to.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

hm

1. Before you go and see a shrink, I’d recommend googling “doorbell”.
2. If the “He” you’re referring to is Billy Butler, then the answer is NO.

by billexgordler on Mar 5, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

what do you mean by the term "googling"?

Sorry to add an additional question.

"Shot by my own men."

by StonewallPDS on Mar 5, 2010 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

It Is A

Combination of the words “goo” and “gling”. Make of it what you will.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Mar 8, 2010 7:24 AM EST up reply actions  

In the event of #1 happening,

will you represent me?

Sorry to add an additional question.

"Shot by my own men."

by StonewallPDS on Mar 5, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Of course

I’m sure you can come up with a decent retainer (pretty much everything you have).

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

This Is Justice

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Mar 8, 2010 7:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Answers

1. RoyalsReview is camping out in your attic and is playing music as someone approaches your house. It was my idea. What would you prefer to hear as someone is approaching? We will think about changing it.

2. Sure but why would she/he? Then if she/he did, she/he could increase their strength to then be able to lift it. It’s a vicious cycle that I would think God would identify and stay out of it. Kinda like the revolving door at SS for the Royals. It’s a vicious cycle.

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by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Mar 5, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Your request has been noted and filed

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by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Mar 5, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Border Song

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Mar 8, 2010 7:26 AM EST up reply actions  

love that second questino

that was like the only paper I did well on in my philo 101 class

by Freneau on Mar 5, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

so is there an actual answer?

i mean, philosophically speaking?

Zapp Brannigan/Dayton Moore quote of the day: "[my most important sabermetric stats are] runs scored and runs driven in"

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Mar 5, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Philosophy has no final answers

Just more interesting ways to look at the questions. (and that isn’t a criticism of philosophy)

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 4:38 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think it depends on what you think about God to some extent

I believe I went with “he COULD make a stone he couldn’t lift” because that is somehow more powerful and possibly there was some link to a Christian understanding of God liking to give himself little challanges so to speak

by Freneau on Mar 6, 2010 12:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Lifting the stone only has relevance in a world where gravity rules

If the stone is in space without gravity, what good would lifting the stone do?

by AxDxMx on Mar 6, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, hey...

Ethics question:

Is it cheating to use physics to resolve the central issue in a philosophy paper?

by kcemigre on Mar 6, 2010 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Which Physics?

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Mar 8, 2010 7:28 AM EST up reply actions  

ok, that's sort of what i expected

i mean, that it’s more about the interpretation of the question, than there are people talking like they have a definitive answer.

Zapp Brannigan/Dayton Moore quote of the day: "[my most important sabermetric stats are] runs scored and runs driven in"

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Mar 8, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is WAR better than WARP?

Is it? Why?

Is one better for telling me what happened and one better for establishing a “true” talent level? Does BP have any leading edge stats left?

by billexgordler on Mar 5, 2010 1:49 PM EST reply actions  

If I am correct WARP doesn't take defense into account

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by Jeff Zimmerman on Mar 5, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Right...

Forgot that.

What I suspect is an unfairly difficult follow up: Compare your confidence levels for the best offensive and defensive metrics in terms of A) quantifying past performance and B) quantifying true talent.

Is WARP a 9 out of 10 for quantifying past performance and 7 for quantifying true talent? And, is UZR a 7 out of 10 on past performance and 5 out of 10 for true talent? Just estimates of course will do.

by billexgordler on Mar 5, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

VORP doesn't, but I think WARP does

But I’m not sure what defensive metric WARP uses. I think the best they have is FRAA/FRAR, which pretty much everyone recognizes to be a shitty defensive metric. This would make WARP clearly inferior. But I hear some of the new guys at BP (actual sabermetricians) are working on their own new defensive metric.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, WARP uses FRAA/FRAR

the general metric is okay for its time, but it basically a souped-up range factor, and not on par with TotalZone for old stuff or UZR, Plus/minus, etc. for more recent stuff.

And the way they set up “replacement level fielding” is truly bizarre… it doesn’t make sense to me at all.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

BP has a new pitching metric which looks pretty good

SIERA. And it has tested pretty well so far against FIP, xFIP, and tRA. I wouldn’t say that it is clearly superior to xFIP or tRA, but I think it is up in their level. Well, that’s my preliminary opinion so far. I haven’t had much experience with it yet.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

there are some questions about exactly how good the testing was

and how substantial the improvement was, anyway, but I’m not the one to sort it all out

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

SIERA

I read through all the introductory pieces on BP last month. Seems very interesting, but I’m not equipped to (or interested in…) figure out how much of an improvement it is. Are we (well, they) splitting hairs here?

by billexgordler on Mar 5, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I really don't see much of an improvement over tRA

In my mind, tRA is still the best pitching metric. Because it is on the RA scale, not ERA scale, it is a bit inaccessible. But I find tRA+ to be exceptionally easy to use and understand.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

And you use it...

…both as a record of how a pitcher performed AND how you might expect him to perform in the future?

by billexgordler on Mar 5, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, to some extent all stats which are descriptive of performance tell you something about how the player should perform in the future. But of course projections must also include the effect of aging, etc. As far as describing true talent level from multiple seasons of performance, I think the stat tRA* is supposed to give you that.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

tRA is very good at measuring how well a pitcher has performed

It’s not spectacular at predicting future performance (on par with FIP, maybe a tick above). SIERA is better at predicting future ERA than tRA is, but it’s not a real improvement on xFIP or tRA* (tRA with component regression) as far as I can tell.

by Graham MacAree on Mar 5, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Predicting future ERA

I saw the SIERA tests at BP. Why is predicting future ERA a good test of anything? ERA is full of so many elements out of the pitcher’s control and it is likely to very widely around the pitcher’s true talent level. So why is the test of a good metric how well it predicts a bad metric (bad at measuring the pitcher’s actual performance)?

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Realistically, though, you want to predict ERA if you're going for the fantasy baseball crowd

So if they’re going for that, more power to them. There’s a lot of money in there.

by Graham MacAree on Mar 5, 2010 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Ugh, I hate it when fantasy baseball usefulness is driving the bus. But BP is a business and their primary goal is maximizing profit. No wonder I don’t pay much attention to them anymore.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Could you give me your opinion of SIERA?

And how it compares to tRA in your opinion? I’m sure you could write a lot on that, but anything you could give me would be appreaciated.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I think if you joined Twitter you'd get Graham's opinion pretty quick...

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I've just dipped my toes into the waters of facebook

I don’t know if I’m willing to twit as well.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm into twitter

not facebook.

/not that you care

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 6, 2010 1:40 AM EST up reply actions  

My opinion:

SIERA’s probably the most predictive statistic around right now. However, the way it’s derived does not lend itself well towards adapting to different run environments nor does it make much sense from a baseballing standpoint. Its main strength lies in its non-linearity, which is a big step forward, but using Base Runs for FIP or tRA accomplishes the same thing. I am mainly anti-SIERA due to the bizarre way it was derived – frankly I don’t see the point of building a statistic from the data rather than from what actually happens on a baseball diamond.

As for comparing to tRA: SIERA’s asking what we expect a pitcher’s ERA to be in y+1 given certain inputs. tRA is estimating what a pitcher’s R/9 was assuming a neutral defence and park. They’re different questions entirely.

by Graham MacAree on Mar 5, 2010 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

one of my own thoughts

(and I might talk about this in an upcoming podcast in between my terrible jokes, stuttering, and "um"s) is that, although it’s complex on one level, on another level tRA has an appealing simplicity in conception (FIP is similar) — it’s the sort of thing that, once I read about it a bit, I thought “it’s so obvious!”

That’s meant as a compliment — I’m not saying I could have thought of it, but that it makes so much intuitive sense. I appreciate that sort of “simplicity of conception” or whatever you want to call it.

Also, as Graham says, tRA and FIP sill distinguish between what actually is happening, th us the distinction from tRA* and xFIP, whereas SIERA seems to occupy an “in-between” spot.

Not that my thoughts are all that original or interesting, but it’s an outside, less sophisticated perspective

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Let me know when/where/how your podcast is available

I would also like to subscribe to your newsletter.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

just keep checking FanGraphs

it’s not “my” podcast, I sometimes do one with other people for FanGraphs… I think we’re recording on Sunday night, should be, um, interesting… Matthew Carruth and I are going to talk about inventing stats, so I should really make a fool about myself at least 3-4 times

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 6, 2010 1:41 AM EST up reply actions  

YES

This was my big question. Why try to predict something that you don’t think reflects what it tries to reflect?

by billexgordler on Mar 5, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

by the way

I wish every pitching stat was scaled to RA — not only is it more rational as a measure, ti’s also more useful

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions  

+4.87

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Other easons

WAR also uses a superior system for positional adjustments (I think Clay has acknowledged these problems as well — I know he fixed his too-low replacement level, not sure about positional adjustments)

Now, you may not agree wit hthe precise WAR positional adjustments, but using a standard one for each position based both on statistical comparison and common sense beats the WARP system, which, like VORP, uses a percentage of hitting based on each position. But these leads to logical weirdness — in the 1950s, for exampe, you’ll get some seasons where the average CF outhits the average LF. Does that mean it was easier to “replace” at CF than an LF in the 1950s? No. We know that pretty much any CF will be better in LF, but not vice-versa, and that’s as true in 1957 as it is today.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

What are the WAR positional adjustments?

That seems like an impossibly difficult problem.

by billexgordler on Mar 5, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Is this the most recent positional adjustment?

•Catcher: +12.5 runs
•First Base: -12.5
•Second Base: +2.5
•Shortstop: +7.5
•Third Base: +2.5
•Right Field: -7.5
•Center Field: +2.5
•Left Field: -7.5
•Designated Hitter: -17.5

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

yes

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm surprised that CF is as easy a position to fill as 2B and 3B

maybe i’m skewed by the K’s big outfield

Zapp Brannigan/Dayton Moore quote of the day: "[my most important sabermetric stats are] runs scored and runs driven in"

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Mar 5, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

It's a slightly harder position to play

But that’s offset by a larger population to draw from: left-handed throwers can’t play 2B/3B

by Graham MacAree on Mar 5, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

ah, of course

Zapp Brannigan/Dayton Moore quote of the day: "[my most important sabermetric stats are] runs scored and runs driven in"

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Mar 8, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Can anyone give the plusses and minuses to each of the major projection systems?

CHONE
Marcel
ZIPS
Bill James
PECOTA
CAIRO

Thoughts on Oliver?

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/introducing-oliver/

Is it even possible to have such long-term player projections with any kind of accuracy?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 5, 2010 2:31 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I'll just throw in a few thoughts

Marcel – This is a simple regression model using — I think — just the last three years of a player’s stats. That kind of regression is the basis of pretty much all of the projection systems. But they all add to it, so Marcel is basically inferior to all of them. I think Tom Tango developed it, but recognizes it is a very simple tool, not a great projection system. It is named after Ross’s monkey on “Friends,” because it is the projection system so simple to put together a monkey could do it.

Bill James – No one knows what the hell this thing is. From what I’ve read, Bill James just sold his name to somebody to use on their projection system. I don’t think anyone knows how they come up with their projection. And I don’t think it has a good track record for accuracy.

PECOTA – Some say it relies too much on “player types” and using the development/decline curves of those types of players. Others think that CHONE, ZiPS and others are inferior to PECOTA because they don’t recognize the different career progression curves of different types of players.

Oliver – I think this was new last year. From what I read about what goes into it, it is CHONE-lite, or ZiPS-lite. It’s not bad, but I don’t think it is as good as the top-tier projection systems.

I think in recent years ZiPS and CHONE have the best track records. I think I read that CHONE performed best in 2009.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Oliver

BTW, my comments on Oliver were about it’s one-year projections. I have serious doubts about the accuracy of any multiple year projections.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Bill James seems to following the normal projection generation, but doesn't use regression to mean

Most values are higher and lower than the over projections.

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by Jeff Zimmerman on Mar 5, 2010 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it regresses, just differently

almost a PrOPS-like overrating of power hitters

I also suspect it uses messed-up MLEs, but that’s just a hunch

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

My uneducated thoughts

Marcel — simple weighted regression model, very basic age adjustments, not separate component curves, park or league adjustments, anything. Is no more but a baseline system, and that’s all it is meant to be, a “minimum competency test.” for other system. And yet, even the system that beat it only do so by a bit.

CHONE — at the moment, probably the “industry standard” of public projection system. No comparables stuff, either, as far as I know, just really well-researched component aging curves, MLEs, park-and-league adjustments, etc.

ZIPS — uses comparables, has been as good as CHONE some recent years, althougn not always. Very good, though.

Bill James — lives off the name. Too hitter-optimistic.

PECOTA — used to be the standard, has fallen apart the last couple years. Got roundly beaten by CHONE at least as far back as 2008, maybe 2007, don’t remember — Matt Schwartz ,who now writes for BP (hmmm…) showed that. Failed to beat Marcel in 2009. At least it’s freely accessible and open-source…

CAIRO — underrated system by SG from replacement level Yankee Weblog. Does quite well, beats Marcel, actually I think SG’s overall standing projections “won” last season according to VegasWatch, coudl be wrong

Thoughts on Oliver? — It will be nteresting. Beat Marcel in 2009. Brian is super-smart, and the MLEs use a different method, that, in principle, should be better, but we’ll see

Until somebody smart tells me otherwise, CHONE is the best, with ZiPS, CAIRO, and maybe Oliver right behind. It’s pretty close, though. Tango once put it the best by saying “If any system is the best, it’s CHONE.”

I can’t wait to how DAYTON matches up.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Dang

I thought Marcel was named for Lachemann…
It is my firm belief that every stat should somehow be acronymed (?) after a player or baseball person (PECOTA, CHONE, CAIRO, etc.).

Murphy was an optimist.

by The Ol' Perfesser on Mar 6, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

The answer is

“Guy who gets released by the Braves in March.”

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Mar 5, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

So of today's advanced metrics...

…which ones are still around as bedrock for baseball analysis in 10 years?

More simply, if the historic Triple Crown= HR, RBI, BA and ERA, W, K, what is the Sabermetric triple crown?

by billexgordler on Mar 5, 2010 5:30 PM EST reply actions  

either that or MLV

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Since this is the thread for stupid questions....

what happens to WAR?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 6, 2010 1:41 AM EST up reply actions  

I think there will be some form of it there.

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by Jeff Zimmerman on Mar 6, 2010 8:31 AM EST up reply actions  

what Jeff said

it will evolve, but some form of it will still be around

the basic offensive run estimator (as Graham is getting at above) will be the same, although I can see using a wOBA-based on baseruns (maybe including more events). Defensive stats will greatly improve; positional adjustments will probably change over time, same with replacement level. And so on. For pitchers, different, new stats, etc.

But the same framework will still be there for Total Value

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 6, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Follow up

Not sure if anyone’s monitoring this thread still, but I’m curious about whether folks see these types of total value stats continuing to prosper. Part of what’s nice about the typical stats is that they show you HOW a player is valuable. Zobrist and Pujols had virtually identical WARs, but they accrued that value in vastly different ways. Total value stats are, um, valuable, but they’re not particularly descriptive. I guess this isn’t a question but more of a comment.

by billexgordler on Mar 7, 2010 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Is that a problem?

With typical stats, you’d look at Pujols line and say he was way more valuable than Zobrist. WAR (or a similar style of stat) gives you a full picture.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

by Warden11 on Mar 7, 2010 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, we can break them down into particulars

that was already there. Before, we easily could have AVG/OBP/SLG, or walks, HRs, 2B, SBs, etc.

But we didn’t really know what these were worth. That’s where linear weights come in — to give the players run produciton in runs above/below average, to “sum it up.” (wOBA is just lwts expressed as a rate stat). You still have all the “descriptive” components

WAR is the same analogue. We know how much the player contributed (according to offensive lwts) offensively, we have some defensive stat defensively, we know what position he played and how often, etc. That’s all still there. WAR’s function is to give us a total picture of how that adds up, so that we can not only compare to positoin players with different skills sets and at different positoins (e.g., Franklin Gutierrez vs. Mark Teixeira), but even positoin players an pitchers.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 7, 2010 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, WAR isn't a stat, it's a framework

I doubt that the current versions of WAR at FanGraphs and Baseball Projection will still be in use, but WAR will almost certainly still be around. Ditto FIP for it’s simplicity.

by vivaelpujols on Mar 7, 2010 1:18 AM EST up reply actions  

There will always be a place for a stat

That can effectively compare the value of hitters and pitchers together.

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by RoyalsRetro on Mar 8, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

This isn't a stupid question...

But MLB 2K10 has Sabermetric stats in it… Doesn’t have FIP or wOBA (hell doesn’t even have OPS) but it does have VORP, and Game score… Banny is leading both after one start.

I love this time of year.... The Royals are always in first place!!!

by averagegatsby on Mar 5, 2010 10:33 PM EST reply actions  

hilarious that VORP made it

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by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

it had some other stuff too...

Despite being a supporter of Sabermetrics, Im not really in the “know” about them, I recognized some of them but there were quite a few that I had never seen used or mentioned before. It seems to me that it didn’t really have any of the adjusted stats, stuff with park factors or league adjustments.

I love this time of year.... The Royals are always in first place!!!

by averagegatsby on Mar 5, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

And so he is a dumb question...

Why is VORP such a joke… And when did VORP become such a bad stat?

I love this time of year.... The Royals are always in first place!!!

by averagegatsby on Mar 5, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions  

When...

1. it doesn’t include defense
2. it was discovered that it’s manner of figuring replacement level was way off

(perhaps other failings I can’t remember)

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by Scott McKinney on Mar 5, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah that makes sense...

I love this time of year.... The Royals are always in first place!!!

by averagegatsby on Mar 5, 2010 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

My favorite failing

I think it undervalues doubles realtive to HRs,.. have to look it up later

Bad positional adjusment as described elsewhere (overvalues 1B/DHs/LFs)

But my favorite problem…

it undervalues walks by half

just hilarious. The flagship stat of a certain subset of nerds a few years back, of people who go off about OBP has somethings teams don’t get… undervalues walks!

Think about it — doesn’t value defense, overvalues easy positions, undervalues walks… VORP should be Dayton Moore’s favorite stat!

My older summaries of other people’s criticisms can be found here and here

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Oops... make that undervaluing walks by about a third

it’s only one-tenth of a run, but it adds up

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Mar 5, 2010 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

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