But he has shitloads of them

1. in the D-Backs system

and he is still 20, grad of the Puerto Rico Baseball Academy

but he is in his 4th Minor League year, so he needs to be in the Major League roster in some form by 2012 to not be a 6 year minor league FA

Relievers are typically expendable and it’s just when you fuck up that expending them goes badly

everything i’ve read has him playing SS

had in the top 10 recently, although he says there’s questions about whether his arm will stick at SS

soon enough even DM will figure out not to give big money to middle relievers

but Rosa is better than a lot of the Royals pen, so DM is spending his currency on more toolsy guys

Should be in the big leagues sooner than later.

He hasn’t. Unless hitting is completely irrelevant. I don’t think it is.

That isn’t good

And he managed a blistering .258/.323/.385

Yikes

tOOLs > tRA/wOBA

or anywhere even close?

I’m all for this organization “getting younger”, but I was thinking more along the lines of trading over 28 year olds with only a year or two left on their contract, not a serviceable young reliever with six years of service time left.

And not for a toolsy shortstop who has demonstrated little ability to hit in a substantial number of PAs with apparently spotty defense.

90% of this thread is you complaining about this trade… Were you and Rosa lovers? I won’t tell!

But his numbers otherwise have been decent the last year and a half

its a win by default if you pay a guy to put up negative WAR

And no mention of R. Ramirez and Leo Nunez?

dayton really believes pitching is the currency of baseball

I wonder what we’ll get for Montgomery

Attitude trumps talent (unless you are a shit player like Guillen and Colon) so he had to go.

I fully expect Mitch Maier to get traded the minute he goes two games without getting a hit

Like being in a fight against a dozen mixed martial arts fighters.

Who can run and………….. well, run.

He might have a smidgen of value left. Rosa aside, the usual organizational strategy seems to be to bury a guy until most of his value is gone, then release him or trade him for $50.

we’re going to irrationally acquire a lefty specialist/starter anyday now

No, it sounds like a PROCESS.

Poor Rosa. He must have reeeeeeeeally ticked Dayton off. The man just signed his death warrant.

…which makes him freely moveable from the majors to the minors and back again as many times as his organization likes in 2010.

Great defense, weak arm, some pop (of course that never translates to actual hitting in actual games). He doesn’t deserve top 20.

1. in the Royals system? I’m sorry Greg, but that’s a joke. The Royals have some genuine prospects in their top 20. It sounds like this guy has maybe two tools and absolutely no production as a professional baseball player.

Yuni actually had some hitting tools once upon a time. TPJ was described as a great fielder who just somehow made a lot of errors. He was also described as a hitter with “some pop” who just didn’t quite show the results in the minors. That is pretty much exactly what I’ve read about Navarro from a handful of sources over the past hour.

I have a feeling that Navarro’s realistic ceiling is a good fielding utility IFer in the majors. But I’d bet a month’s pay that he never plays a game in the majors.

Navarro would have to be attached to the 40 man by the time he is 22, which should tell you something if you’re considering sending your kid to the Puerto Rico Baseball Academy. He might be drafted so young that he’s gonna switch organizations before he’s 25.

It’d be awesome if errors were broken down by type too. Just so we know how many errors get credited to a shortstop if the first baseman can’t handle the throw or something

I think some people just don’t realize that.

Anyways, never hurts to keep the warehouse stocked

Granted, I’m not a pro in the area, but everything I’ve heard shows Arizona as having one of the 3-4 worst farm systems in baseball and KC having one of the top 10 or 15. That’s not to say that we don’t need SS in the system, but I think that moving him up in ranking from their system to our’s might be a stretch.

And you’re right that stats aren’t everything, but they’re representative of how he’s done so far. You said yourself that he commits an error every two games and that is something that will take time to smooth over. He’s going to Wilmington, though, which is where I think some great development happens within the system. It could really help him break through, but I just don’t know what his scouting report says, so I have to look at stats to get any measurement.

I will ask you this if I am crazy for having him at 11 is baseball america absolutely bonkers for having him in the AZ top 12 the last 3 years?

That’s a fair point. But I don’t know how good AZ’s system is. It seemed to me that the Royals system was pretty deep and that at least the top 15 was pretty damn good. So he’s better than whom? He’s a better prospect than Dwyer, Kila, Blake Wood, Ty Sample, Jordan Parraz, Gia and Cuthbert? Really? He’s a better prospect than ALL of those guys? I don’t see it at all. And what are his tools? Let’s say fielding and arm (despite his errors). Speed? Perhaps. But contact and power? Nope. If he had those tools, wouldn’t they be represented in his stat line somewhere? Anywhere? And no plate discipline either. No sign of it.

I realize that tools and upside potential are more important in evaluating a prospect than stats, but are stats irrelevant? This kid has done absolutely nothing. He hasn’t hit a lick so far (including repeating rookie ball). He makes errors like crazy. But this doesn’t take the shine off of his apple, and he still deserves essentially the same rank year after year. When should I start worrying about him? When he’s been promoted to AAA in a couple years and he still hasn’t hit at all?

Drinking and posting here is totally against the rules. ;)

But I agree with you actually. I’m waiting to pass judgment on the trade until I see what Navarro can do. He’s young. I’m willing to give him time, even though I’m sad to lose a friend in Carlos.

Why is the round he was drafted in come up multiple years after?

And shouldn’t recent results outweigh past scouting opinions? That is why I can never understand how some guys with far superior stats in aaa get leapfrogged by guys with shitty ones from aa. It seems to me that the organization falls in love with the prospect/high draft pick and uses information from multiple years ago instead of the current situation.

The common arguement I hear is age. Something along the lines of the guy in aaa who is tearing it up should tear it up because he’s in his prime. Well fuck let him do well in the majors if he is in his prime! Just because you let a guy play in kc doesn’t mean you have to keep him for a decade! If the guy is in his late 20s or whatever get his prime years in the bigs and then cut/waive/send him down if he doesn’t perform. I feel like the royals have a formula where they bring the guy straight from aa when he’s young just so their big prospect can have a shot to pan out and play for a decade when in reality he should be in aaa and the guy in aaa should get the shot.

One week from now, i will be free from this stupid dry campus and will be drinking plenty of…apple juice….every time I come around this site.

lol

I am a little tunnel vision-y on this one at the moment. Part of it is because it is in the context of what look like a lot of other bad moves from the Royals. If this were in isolation, I’d be more open minded about it. Another part is that Rosa was my Royals pitching prospect man crush. Hopefully there were a lot of bad reports on Rosa and good reports on Navarro, and not by the Royals scouts who loved Farnsworth and Colon and disliked J.P. Howell. Oh and I hope the positive reports on Navarro didn’t come from the guys who loved TPJ…and Rey Ordonez.

When it comes to the Royals you’re better off not believing it.

What did we hear about Brett Tomko last year from a scout? Something about winning 15+ games? There’s the infamous “You’ll remember this day for the rest of your life” from Art Stewart about Lubanski or some other crap prospect that didn’t pan out. The team history is littered with this stuff, so sorry if we don’t trust whoever you talked to. If it was a Royals scout, he genuinely believes it and is wrong, and if it’s another team’s scout, he’s just talking up the Royals so they will want to trade with his team in the future. All the other scouts are laughing at DM behind his back.

…whether you’ve been drinking or not. He’s got to go, like yesterday. I wish it would have been yesterday.

….but I wouldn’t have made this move. Is it a high-risk, high-reward gamble? I think so. And perhaps Dayton believed our bullpen wasn’t going to be average anyway, even with Rosa, but I still think he’s a potential bonafide back-end arm. And I believe Navarro is a long, long, long ways from being a worthwhile major leaguer. Classic tools vs. ability debate, in my opinion (though Rosa himself could be deemed toolsy). That isn’t my style. I value production, even at the minor league level. Cutting down on those errors and improving that plate discipline will be a momentous task.

But for every Escobar, how many never click it all into place? 10? 20?

You are such an apologist for Dayton Moore and everything this organization does. In spring training, I’m sure you were singing Rosa’s praises. As Dayton Moore kept overlooking him for the Royals awful bullpen, I’m sure your tune started to change. Have to stay in line with the Royals front office. Now that the Royals have traded him, “he sucks.” And when the Royals trade Kila, you’ll say he sucks too. If the Royals traded Montgomery, you’d talk about his attitude problems.

Without throwing strikes, like he did last year.

Why is he still striking out more people this year than his career average?

you practically fellate GMDM all the time. so gross

someone’s a DM apologist.

94 mph fastball and a good slider (it is a good slider according to people like BA, doublestix and others). And decent control. Those things are a dime a dozen? Please. Of course you can’t find a 94 mph fastball with a good slider and that kind of control on the waiver wire. That’s ludicrous. And if he’s lost velocity this season, we certainly don’t know if that’s for good based on what he’s done in his first 12 innings of the season. And are you really using WHIP to evaluate a pitcher. If so, you really shouldn’t be using stats to try to support your opinion.

My anger stems from the fact that all the other known shitty options were tried in the bullpen this year, and Rosa wasn’t even given a chance. It has nothing to do with him being a “prospect”, because honestly, he lost that label a season or two ago. He could have been a serviceable bullpen guy. Would it have worked? Maybe not. My issue is with Dayton not giving him the chance, and trading a position of need (reliever) for a position of I don’t know what. We definitely don’t need a SS this year, or likely next year. Just doesn’t seem to make much sense, especially if the upside is Rey Ordonez.

I’d be willing to bet Rosa is already better than at least half the current Royals bullpen. If DMGM would have traded Marte for this guy I wouldn’t have blinked an eye but to trade Rosa it just seems stupid. Sorry, I’m a little cranky. I just can’t trust the process.

which means the guy we didn’t trade Moore valued more. (either that or Moore doesn’t know how to bargain)

we have 0 trade options. so we’re stuck with another roman colon, instead of a ss with considerable upside.

i don’t know about you guys, but i’ve never really enjoyed roman. why have two?

I have no reason to trust their judgment. They constantly bury guys that can contribute in favor of older more expensive options with zero upside. Maybe if I thought DM was half competent I wouldn’t be so against this trade. I’m not saying it won’t pan out for us, I just don’t trust the Royals and their player personel moves.

If you asked me to predict then I would say Castaneda is a guy that will take that roster spot (40 man) they really like him…88-89 slide piece and throws strikes

but that is me making a guess on a Sunday morning

“He’s really lost bat speed in the past two years. All he’d ever do in the majors is draw a few walks. He could never be able to make decent contact in the majors. And his fielding at first base never developed. He really wasn’t much of a prospect at all. We were lucky to get anything for this piece of junk.”

It’s amazing how much your “prospect status” falls when Dayton Moore lets you languish in the minors. The problem is, a negative evaluation from Dayton Moore really doesn’t tell you anything. He’s wrong more often than he’s right.

i think we’re all in agreement about 2010 and 2011. obviously, this team isn’t close.
why, then, is there so much concern about trading away a MIDDLE RELIEVER who can help now?

Because the Royals wouldn’t just have him now. They’d have him for six years of team control. I’d rather have Rosa’s six years than Navarro’s ton (???) of potential? Since we’ve talked about what kind of prospect is “a dime a dozen” I think I should mention that good defense, no hit middle infield prospects are probably a dime for one hundred. They are extremely common and very, very rarely turn into anything.

So far every year of his addmitedly short professional career has shown the same problems. It would be great if his numbers showed any kind of progress. They don’t. Can’t make contact. Can’t get on base. Can’t hit for power. Can’t stop making errors. This guy will be in KC in no time!

Six years of being unable to get optioned seems less than ideal

Yeah, if he sucks. And you assume he sucks and will continue to suck. I don’t think we can or should assume that.

then again, there’s the matter of all the people who have seen Rosa recently being down on him. Obviously they don’t know as much as someone who looks at Rosa’s numbers

In this hypothetical, is the pitcher only going to be able to pitch 3 innings per week for the rest of his career? And where did we get this information from?

Also, what kind of stats are we talking about when we say “less than stellar but not bad.” From a genuine prospect, are hitting stats like these in the low minors “not bad”?

2007 Rk – .250/.274/.283
2008 Rk – .258/.323/.385
2009 A – .262/.308/.339
2010 A – .241/.307/.329

Are those stats really not bad? Low BA. Low OBP. Low SLG. They kind of look horrendous.

And everyone who watches Navarro agrees about how wonderful he is? How do you know this? No scouts dislike him or think his potential is limited? A good write-up in BA doesn’t mean that scouts are unanimous in their love for this perennial #10-15 prospect in a team’s system.

not to give away my answer or anything, but i am absolutely positive that if we traded away, say, bianchi (injuries and higher ranking not withstanding) for the equivalent of carlos rosa, the same detractors now would be even louder.

So Bianchi is a good comp for Navarro despite the fact that Bianchi has actually done something in the minors? Does actual performance on the field mean anything to you?

Until last year, Rosa was a starter, and a damn good one at that. I won’t go into why the Royals brass decided to move him to relief, but that’s been their modus operandi for good pitchers for years. They did it with Rosa, they did it with Soria, hell, they even did it to Zack Greinke.

They also did it with JP Howell. And Howell’s been a stellar relief pitcher over the last few years. Oddly enough, they traded Howell away for exactly the type of player you seem to be suggesting the Royals acquire more of.

Not surprisingly, the player the Royals picked up is now out of the organization. And as a result of depleting our available bullpen arms, the Royals have blown over $8 million in acquiring arms for the pen when there was already a decent replacement on hand.

So, yes, you can gamble on a SS suddenly acquiring the ability to hit homeruns and draw walks, and sacrifice your bullpen (or potential rotation spot, as the case may be.)

Or you can go for the nearly sure-thing, hold on to the reliever in the pen and spend your surplus cash on a proven SS. Hey, and if all we want a Rey Ordonez clone, I’m sure we could re-sign TPJ for league minimum.

The problem is that I don’t think your hypothetical matches up with the players in this trade.

There is much more vitriol in game threads. And the Royals major league games this season are actually less important than “process” moves like this one in which Moore disposes of a player who could be a part of the Royals contending future. Things have gotten so bad that when Moore either improves or makes worse the Royals minor league system, that is more important than whether the Royals have taken a step backwards or fowards in their quest for 70 wins this season.

Oops!

about Rosa’s ability to pitch well

is TPJ 2007