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    A vocal minority here at RR asserts...

    …that managers make little to no difference at the ML level. Well, with Yost directly asserting himself in relation to his pitchers’ pre-game and between-game throwing routines (over and above McClure?), we’re going to find out.

    If Yost’s actions do no-thing, then the vocal minority is right.

    If the pitching gets better or goes south, then I think we’ll have to conclude that coaching means something at the ML level. – TL

    "Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

    by timlacy on May 21, 2010 7:11 AM EDT reply actions  

    Good point, this should show very clearly the impact managers can have.

    Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

    People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

    by Warden11 on May 21, 2010 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

    You seem awfully confident that it's a minority

    Royals, NBA, Golden Hurricane, Hawkeyes, Chiefs, and KU basketball, in that order.

    by Rowyal on May 21, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

    Not really.

    My emphasis probably should’ve been on VOCAL rather than minority. I have no idea how many folks here believe that managers have little or influence on the activities of ML players.

    "Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

    by timlacy on May 21, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

    nice straw man

    I don’t think we’ve ever discussed whether managers “influence the activites” of major league players — they clearly can. What some of us think is that the major league manager has little measurable effect on the team’s winning percentage, which reflects the talent level of players.

    This has been shown time, and time again, but keep insisting on those WMDs, Tim, it’s cute!

    I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

    Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

    by Matt Klaassen on May 21, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

    A suggestion:

    Let’s watch this minor experiment as it plays out. I mean, if somebody with more time cared, we have a defined before and after here. And we have defined set of activities. This seems like a statistician’s dream—-or are some more concerned with using numbers to prove theories we already have? – TL

    "Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

    by timlacy on May 21, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

    A sample size of one

    Is a statisticians nightmare. You are proposing a study based on that.

    by kcbottom9th on May 21, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

    One manager, yes, but...

    …a group of pitchers whose performances can be measured before and after Yost’s changes are implemented. Of course you’d want more teams and similar plans, with control groups, but there is no reason to not do a micro-study here. – TL

    "Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

    by timlacy on May 21, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

    Analogy...

    Let’s do a study on how pitchers improve when Kendall is a catcher versus Pena. We’ll just look at pitchers’ ERA and then we can tell who the better catcher is! Brilliant!

    "I DARE you to make less sense."

    by dejackso on May 21, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

    Nice try Klaasen. Uttering absurdities makes 'em so. "this has been shown

    time and time again". possibly you would back that up with some of your stats?
    possibly this serves e.g. of what TLacy was referring to as “vocal”. I prefer to think
    “narrow minded and stupid”, but that is just my personal opinion. You are going to be able to figure out the “impact” of managers on winning and losing when you identify the ways or variables in which a manager may affect a game. unless you do this, and then compare what a particular manger may do, you are whistling in the wind. The assumption that once they hit the big leagues that players peform to their max talent quite obviously is untrue. what then affects their performance would be the Q. Undoubtedly their own efforts contribute. Can a manager affect Vlad Guerro’s play. I’d think so, in a fairly large number of ways.

    by Coach Feb on May 21, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

    Yeah...

    weren’t they like 14-5 or something.

    "I DARE you to make less sense."

    by dejackso on May 21, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

    Yeah, but..

    those were the Yankees with Alex Rodriguez…and he isn’t clutch.

    "I DARE you to make less sense."

    by dejackso on May 21, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

    That doesn't sound like 18-11.

    Trey wins.

    Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

    People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

    by Warden11 on May 22, 2010 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

    Here's a short one

    James Click, “Is Joe Torre a Hall of Fame Manager?” in Baseball Between the Numbers, ed. Jonah Keri, 139-156.

    Click is currently in baseball operations for the Rays.

    It’s just one study by an acknowledged expert within the industry within an “okay” organization, so I’m not sure if it quite stands up to your dogmatic assertions, but it’s a start.

    I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

    Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

    by Matt Klaassen on May 21, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

    i should stay out of the discussion. without time for it. but, short reply--

    i’ll agree my post is dogmatic but in same vein as yours. mine is less polite, perhaps, but, what stretch of decorum permits posters such as yourself presume repeatedly that everyone agrees with you on manager roles and impact, that its all concluded into a done deal? My guess would be that Tim Lacy hit the nail on the head and that the view that the manager has little impact, or the bryan mcray view that the manager is worth 6 games a year is both the minority view, and a minority by a huge margin. But, it’s a long debate, and I have encouraged a post which identifies the performance variables in the managers control and then analysis as to how those variables affect individual and team performances, and how the manager is doing his job. I am presuming that James Click’s analysis is different, and, I’d be interested in knowing his response as to the impacts of the joes. Joe Torre and Joe Madden. Identical, I’d suppose you’d be arguing.

    by Coach Feb on May 21, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

    I just recommend reading the article

    I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

    Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

    by Matt Klaassen on May 21, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

    i read stats on managerial in game strategic decisions.

    all i could get. would be valuable to see more discussion on this site, is my opinion. txs for reply!

    by Coach Feb on May 21, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

    like they say with such a minute sample size

    we’ll have to dial this back:

    we’ll have to conclude that coaching means something

    maybe something more along the lines of “we’ll have a piece of evidence suggesting that coaching can mean something”

    by SagehenMacGyver47 on May 21, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

    I also think the conventional wisdom is

    “little difference”, not “no difference”. Someone can chime in if they believe managers make no difference, but I think virtually everyone agrees they make some difference, just on the order of a few wins maximum.

    by SagehenMacGyver47 on May 21, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

    Honestly, I'm really starting to wonder if Hillman wasn't a record breaker

    for negative wins.

    He had a team that had no power and continued to give away outs. We’ve all seen how hard it is to score when you have to string three or four singles together, yet Trey kept bunting and bunting. The number of runs that could cost over a season would add up.

    Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

    People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

    by Warden11 on May 22, 2010 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

    I also noted this:...

    …“Hochevar is the first Royals pitcher to throw at least nine innings in a complete game in Cleveland since Chris Haney on July 1, 1996, in a 4-2 victory.”

    Wow. 14 years. Amazing. – TL

    "Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

    by timlacy on May 21, 2010 7:12 AM EDT reply actions  

    I think KC needs to abandon thought of an NHL club

    Quebec and Winnipeg both seem determined to get clubs, and I think they would leapfrog KC in priority, as the NHL seems to learned it was a mistake to go into mid-sized, non-traditional hockey markets (Nashville, Columbus, Phoenix, Miami)

    I think they are still trying to get into Houston just because that city is so large, but I don’t think the NHL is all that enthusiastic about coming here.

    I’d love the NBA, but I haven’t seen any sign we even in the discussion for any NBA team. The Pacers and Kings have some arena difficulties right now, but I’d be shocked if either left.

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on May 21, 2010 9:31 AM EDT reply actions  

    The Pacers won't leave...

    The owner has a good relationship with Indy. And what a travesty it would be for Indiana to be without a pro hoops franchise…

    Still, I’d love to see KC get a club.

    by Tracer Bullet 82 on May 21, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

    Agreed

    This ain’t no hockey town.

    "Shot by my own men."

    by StonewallPDS on May 21, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

    It could be -

    maybe you weren’t at Kemper in mid-90’s when the Blades were drawing 14,000 a night for minor league hockey…

    The Kansas City Royals; Successfully failing since 1986

    by labbadabba on May 21, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

    Wrong

    The NHL is as wide open as any sport (including the NFL). If you bring a winning team with a decent marketing campaign, the NHL would thrive here. Many teams make the playoffs and it’s wide open from there. That’s what this town wants. I’m already a hockey fan, but I bet you would start seeing many more.

    Fire Dayton Moore Now!!!!!!!!!

    by royaldaddy on May 21, 2010 12:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

    A winning team would work in most cities

    Isn’t the real test whether or not a city can support a mediocre or losing team?

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on May 21, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

    MLB Players have been detained at Canadian border

    Memo: MLB Players Have Been Detained at Canadian Border Due to Past Crimes

    The memo goes on to state that several non-Canadian players traveling to Toronto with their teams have been detained at the border because of a past criminal record. The memo does not state who those players are. To date, the White Sox, Angels, Royals, Red Sox, A’s, and Rangers have all played series in Toronto.

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on May 21, 2010 10:00 AM EDT reply actions  

    My guesses

    CHA: Ramon Castro

    Angels: ?

    Royals: Alberto Callaspo

    Red Sox: ?

    As: ?

    Rangers: Josh Hamilton

    I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

    Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

    by Matt Klaassen on May 21, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

    Although

    Was he ever actually convicted of a drugs crime?

    by kcbottom9th on May 21, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

    I have no idea, I'm just guessing

    With Ramon Castro, I believe he’s a former sex offender. Did Callasop get convicted of domestic violence, or just arrest for it?

    I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

    Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

    by Matt Klaassen on May 21, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

    Callaspo

    Wiki says the charges were dropped.

    by kcbottom9th on May 21, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

    maybe the drunk driving conviction?

    I’m not trying to single him out, that’s just my guess. iirc, you lose your license on one violation up here.

    What is it out West?

    I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

    Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

    by Matt Klaassen on May 21, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

    I think

    It’s a federal thing. 12 month ban for the first offense

    by kcbottom9th on May 21, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

    For DUI

    Usually the charges are dropped if you go on diversion.

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on May 21, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

    Others..........

    I’m sure that Guillen, Yuni, Kendall and Farnsworth have all done something illegal before…….keep them up there!

    by higs on May 21, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

    Ex-Braves reliever Blaine Boyer clears waivers

    WTF Dayton? Are you losing your edge?

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on May 21, 2010 11:48 AM EDT reply actions  

    pecker spit....

    Pure genius.

    Turning Kool-Aid to Jesus Juice since 2009.

    by Discodave on May 21, 2010 1:19 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

    OT: from BobGretz.com on Bowe and "importing"
    Have Chiefs players "imported" women on road trips? Absolutely. I have witnessed it and talked to a player or two over the years about the idea….

    What Bowe says he experienced in his rookie season is not groundbreaking, if he really experienced it. The whole story sounds like a giant fish tale with obvious embellishments.

    Let’s take the idea that these imported women "had the whole top floor" of the team’s hotel in San Diego. That would have been the La Jolla Hyatt and there’s absolutely no way that the players could have taken over the entire top floor. The only way they could have put together a block of rooms that size would have been through the team….

    Bowe is quoted as saying "there was a girl in every room." That’s an obvious exaggeration.

    by SagehenMacGyver47 on May 21, 2010 1:32 PM EDT reply actions  

    If there's someone that knows about exaggerating

    Its Bob Gretz!

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on May 21, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

    OT

    Are you still writing the Greatest Royals of All Time? I haven’t seen any in a long while.

    "I DARE you to make less sense."

    by dejackso on May 21, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

    Just began research on the next entry

    I know its been slow going, but I’m hoping to pick up the pace.

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on May 21, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

    I hope I wasn't the only husband who had to sit through Grey's last night

    But seriously, that was one of the dumbest things I have ever seen.

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on May 21, 2010 3:34 PM EDT reply actions  

    Bill Simmons hated it.

    Noticed that on twitter.

    Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

    People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball. I’ll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring.

    by Warden11 on May 22, 2010 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

    We never started down that road

    thankfully, although almost every other season finale I watched had some sort of revealed love/unrequited love/I need you/lets kiss out of nowhere storyline

    ah, TV

    I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

    Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

    by Matt Klaassen on May 22, 2010 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

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