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Brian Bannister Has Become Brian Bannister

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Have you ever had a moment of self-reflection when suddenly you realize, that your life has become whatever it is that it was going to become and that you have become whatever it is you were going to be? You can make changes, sure, but on the whole, you can cross off a number of possibilities from the list. Brian Bannister is one of the game's more interesting characters and was once considered an enigmatic player. He's still interesting, but he's no longer much of an enigma. He has become himself.

Bannister has made 95 starts for the Royals. He still seems like a relatively new player to me, but that really isn't the case. Like Kyle Davies and even Luke Hochevar, Bannister has been around for some time now. (Of course, a Missouri state law passed in 2008 forbids Dayton Moore from making changes to the starting rotation, so we shouldn't be surprised.)

From 20,000 feet, it looks like Bannister has more or less become whatever it is he's going to be. After an interesting first season with the Royals in 2007 that was quickly followed by a rough (and predictable) 2008, it wasn't clear what Bannister's future in baseball was going to be. I wasn't sure Bannister would end up making more career starts than Darrell May back then, though it is now almost certain that he will. Bannister is now fairly deep into a third consecutive season of similar strikeout and walk numbers.

K/9 BB/9 HR/9 BABIP ERA FIP
2007 4.20 2.40 0.82 .266 3.87 4.40
2008 5.57 2.86 1.43 .316 5.76 5.03
2009 5.73 2.92 0.88 .303 4.73 4.14
2010 5.31 2.88 1.52 .290 4.70 5.14

 

As you can see above, Bannister's strikeouts and walks (especially the latter) have been consistent over the last three seasons. At some point, Bannister's strikeout numbers will collapse, and that will be the end of his career. (I see his final line on his baseball-reference page being something like 6 starts with a bad team, a strikeout rate of 3.5 and an ERA of 6.50.) I'm not suggesting that that will happen any time soon however, although the slight dip we've seen this season will need to be monitored.

Star-divide

Essentially, everything we talked about with Banny three or four years ago is still valid: he's at the mercy of his defense, luck on balls in play, and the patterns of the prevailing winds. 2007 was in some ways his career year, but it was also an unsustainable model, which Bannister himself knew. Weirdly, 2007 earned him his MLB bona fides, and would have insured at least three more chances, but it also pushed him closer to being out of the game, at least as a starter. Bannister's made enough adjustments to get his strikeout numbers above water, so to speak. Nevertheless, that 5.73 K/9 in 2009 might very well end up being a career high.

It remains an open question as to what Bannister's value to the organization is going forward. He is barely above replacement level thus far, and as you can see above, there's isn't much room for growth. Bannister is in his second arb-eligible year, and is currently making $2.3 million. As with Kyle Davies, the Royals will need to decide if Bannister is a part of the future at a higher price. By this point, they should know what Bannister can give them.

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HE IS WHAT WE THOUGHT HE WAS!

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jun 1, 2010 1:55 PM EDT reply actions  

AND WE PENCILED HIM INTO THE ROTATION FOR THE NEXT 4 YEARS!

by Freneau on Jun 1, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Crown his ass

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Jun 2, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brian Bannister's value to the organization

was being a warm body in return for getting rid of Ambiorix Burgos.

Honestly, I can’t imagine that we wouldn’t have eventually dumped him for nothing. Thanks for the gift, Omar! (and no, we’re not returning the favor by taking Oliver Perez off your hands)

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Jun 1, 2010 2:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

Whether or not he will have a place in this rotation the next few years will speak volumes as to how successful Dayton’s “Process” is because you would think soon he will be surpassed on the depth chart by Aaron Crow, Noel Arguelles, Mike Montgomery, etc.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jun 1, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Banny's future
I see his final line on his baseball-reference page being something like 6 starts with a bad team, a strikeout rate of 3.5 and an ERA of 6.50.

er….ummmmm…..errrrr….any team in particular?

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Jun 1, 2010 2:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Mets --- Royals -- Astros

That makes sense

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jun 1, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Someone Has To

Take Moyer’s spot once he starts drawing Social Security.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Jun 2, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would strongly support him in competition for the 5th starter job in any spring training, just for the ability to communicate some advanced pitching truths to the young kids.

When it’s his time to retire, we must hire him into the system as a pitching coach. You want to be like Minnesota and have pitchers that come up and throw strikes and don’t walk anyone? You need Brian Bannister in the minors communicating the importance of that to them.

by sfeldkamp on Jun 1, 2010 2:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Not pitching coach

General manager please.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jun 1, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

he's got to be a chameleon

hopefully, he has another side on the inside, that talks about stuff his dad passed along during his time in the game, as well as how his faith has guided him

by Freneau on Jun 1, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

if his priorities are straightened out

I’m really not sure it’s worth it

I think (speculating) to work in a (good — that is, good at their jobs) front office, you have to be available 24-7, 365. It’s like being a stereotypical driven executive in a Hollywood depiction of Wall Street, except almost everyone gets paid a lot less than their non-baseball (non-sports?) counterparts. At best, your colleagues are smart, driven guys, but you also have to work with bitter ex-players, petulant current players, almost all of whom make more than you, dumbass GMs, agents, and, perhaps worst of all, owners. It seems to me that, with a few exceptions, there are few less likable groups out there than major sports team owners.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jun 1, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

true

but the competitive aspect… seems like an awesome rush

by Freneau on Jun 1, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some People Find

It hard to replace. I think he has a good chance of walking away from the game with a lot of cash and another life to live. That said, I’d love to see him stay in baseball, particularly KC, because he’d be good for the sport.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Jun 2, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

if he wants a job with the Royals, he had better have these hidden qualities

he also must shop at Wal-Mart

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Jun 1, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

must say this for Banny

Unlike Hoch & Hiram, you pretty much know you are gonna get a good game from Banny on a given day. Now, on a given night, it might be something different….

Seriously I find his games to be the least frustrating to watch. Sadly, Zacks are the most frustrating

~~~Damn, I wish i had a clever signature

by who am i? on Jun 1, 2010 2:52 PM EDT reply actions  

he could serve as a swingman/long reliever.

I seem to remember that he does better against hitters the first through the lineup.

Would you like to follow me on Twitter, Facebook, or my blog...well you can't.

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jun 1, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's kind of why I thought anywhere from 1-3 IP would be ideal for him

Plus, it would allow him to throw a little harder, when he knows max is probably around 40 pitches per outing.

by AxDxMx on Jun 1, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Banny

He’s still young enough to improve….oddly enough.

I could see him being that 4 something ERA guy who never wins enough to be noticed, but can provide decent innings.

GMDM doesn’t seem to be actively pursuing trades, or trades that make any sense.

Trading for more youth is him admitting he failed….

by Peterman700 on Jun 1, 2010 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm a Banny believer

I think he’s still got a few years of 4.5 ERA ball in him yet. He’s given up too many fly balls so far this year, but I think it’s too early to conclude that he’ll keep doing that.

by kcdc1 on Jun 1, 2010 3:55 PM EDT reply actions  

and that was a BABIP and HR/FB rate fluke

It is just really hard for a pitcher to post sub-4.50 with a low K rate, a K/BB rate below 2.0, merely an averagish groundball rate, or without a super defense behind him. Bannister needs to improve one of those areas, or else have everything fall into place like 2007.

by Gopherballs on Jun 1, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't be surprised...

if he shows up next spring throwing with 3 different arm angles. Seems like the kind of guy who would take a chance on something crazy like that. It was always so much fun watching Cone pitch, would be neat to see Bannister master it.

by sfeldkamp on Jun 1, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

agree

I could see some Frank Tanana kinda tinkering to keep his career going.

Tanana was one of the top leftys in the game when he was young. I saw him strike out 17 in one game. He got hurt, lost 10 mph off his fastball and went on to a long career throwing lots of junk pitches.

~~~Damn, I wish i had a clever signature

by who am i? on Jun 1, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jun 1, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

On Different Sides

Of the planet.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Jun 2, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

at least not probable

Bannister’s groundball rate jumped to 49.5% last year (maybe due to the new cutter), but it did not really help his actual runs allowed thanks to the crappy defense behind him. It has dropped back to 44.2% this year, which is just about league average and close to his career average of 42.3%. If he could maintain a groundball rate pushing 50%, it could give him a nice uptick in value, but again, it is not something that is going to magically happen.

His swinging strike rate is up a touch in 2010 to 7.4% (his career is 6.3%), which also should help a little if he can maintain it, but so far it is not translating into an increased K rate.

by Gopherballs on Jun 1, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

The infield defense has been much better this year than last

Callaspo’s UZR/150 at 2B has been about -12 while at 3B, it’s in positive ground to date. Yuni’s been a lot better so far this year (though we can’t count on that continuing) and Aviles is a big upgrade defensively over Callaspo at 2B. UZR also has Butler playing better defensively this year.

The infield defense has merely been bad-to-average instead of historically bad.

by kcdc1 on Jun 1, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

you need to look at three years of UZR data, not just two months

The true talent level of the infield defense is just not very good — not as bad as last year, but still below average. Over time, Betancourt is not going to play league average SS, and is likely to be well below average. While Callaspo’s weaknesses are better masked at 3B, he is not going to be a plus defender there, and likely a little below average. Butler is going be at least a little below average. Even if Aviles turns out to be league average or a little better, it is still going to be an infield that gives runs away on groundballs, at least until Betancourt goes away.

by Gopherballs on Jun 1, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

defensive stats are pretty bad

…until I want to use a small sample size of them to buttress my point

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jun 1, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

when did you start writing for Beyond the Box Score?

Jeff too. I will try to upgrade it from occasionally checking in to semi-regular status.

No more Driveline?

by Gopherballs on Jun 1, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not much going on at Driveline

Kyke’s doing other stuff

I’ve only done a couple things at BtBS — it’s an occasional thing. FanGraphs is the main thing. But sometimes I have stuff that fits better elsewhere, and I like Sky, et. al.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jun 1, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is Sky is his real name?

And does he hang out with a buddy named Nathan Detroit?

by Gopherballs on Jun 1, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point wasn't that the Royals defense is good

It’s still bad. It’s just better than it was last year. This is due to:

Aviles >>> Callaspo at 2B
Callaspo > Gordon at 3B
2010 Yuni > 2009 Yuni (Yuni was unusually bad in 2009, so regression helps)

by kcdc1 on Jun 1, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

even the "better" defense

is not going to help Bannister outperform his peripherals any time soon

by Gopherballs on Jun 1, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

yep

Should have been clearer—I only meant that this year’s defense isn’t historically awful like last year’s was. I didn’t mean to suggest that this will mean anything particularly positive for Banny’s numbers.

by kcdc1 on Jun 2, 2010 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

don't forget that Getz is better than Gordon, too!

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jun 1, 2010 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't understand you

Do you just like picking fights?

My preference for Getz over Gordon was always intended to be temporary. Gordon looked horrible at the plate and was striking out a ton. He then continued to strike out a ton for a week in Omaha. It was clear that missing ST had left him unready to face MLB pitching. While I like Getz’s chances to contribute as an MLB-average 2B, Gordon clearly has much higher upside than Getz does.

by kcdc1 on Jun 2, 2010 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Callaspo Is By

No meaningful measurable graphic better than Gordon at 3B.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Jun 2, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Banny, himself, said pretty much the same thing last week...

…particularly with regard to groundball rate. It seems that his ERA and FIP have fluctuated pretty much in tandem with that number and his BABIP. Since the BABIP is mostly out of his control, the GB-Rate is what he should work on… and he says that’s what he does.

I posted some quotes just now in a Fanshot, if you’re interested. I know that this particular tune has been overplayed on the interwebs already… but the guy’s just so smart… I pretty much expect him to keep adjusting in ways that, somehow, keep his overall value in positive territory.

by kcemigre on Jun 1, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just saw that . . . good stuff

In a better world, Bannister has Justin Verlander’s arsenal.

by Gopherballs on Jun 1, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

In The Perfect

World, I do.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Jun 2, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

that was underperformance

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jun 1, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah....

He’s at 4.78 for his career, so 4.5 would be an improvement from that. Still, I see his 5.76 ERA 2008 as a bit of a throw-away year since he seemed to be totally changing his pitching style, and his 2009 was considerably better than 4.5 until his arm gave out the last month he played leading to him eventually being shut down for the rest of the year.

I understand that you can’t just throw out the numbers you don’t like, but when you’re talking about a year when he used a different fastball as his primary pitch and a month where he was playing with an eventually season-ending injury, I think it’s reasonable to take those numbers with a grain of salt. 4.4-4.7 seems about right to me for a few years going forward.

by kcdc1 on Jun 1, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

The outlook may depend on your pitching stat philosophy

 tERA liked him less, (2007/2008/2009)
5.58 4.19 5.24

but xFIP, the “Big Predictor”, liked/s him more
4.85 4.37 4.70

- – The difference—from what I understand—is that tERA blames (credits) him for his high (low) HR/FB rates in 2007 & 2009 (2008), while xFIP doesn’t . – -

Would you like to follow me on Twitter, Facebook, or my blog...well you can't.

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jun 1, 2010 4:05 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

tERA uses batted ball data

tERA is going to reward him handsomely for the high groundball rate (49%) and low line drive rate (17%) in 2009 (and do the reverse in the other years). As you noted, I believe tERA also does not regress HR/FB rate.

xFIP does regress HR/FB but does not incorporate the batted ball data (in effect assuming league average groundball and line drive rates).

His 13.2% HR/FB rate in 2010 should regress toward 11% (or a little lower given the K’s suppression of HRs — Bannister’s career HR/FB rate is 9.4%), so his xFIP comes out at 4.70. Both his career xFIP and tERA are 4.84, which I think pretty much sums up his true talent level. Because his strikeout and walk rates are both relatively low, Bannister has a larger than average number of balls in play, which naturally tend to fluctuate more, resulting in his wide swings in results like ERA, even though he has been basically the same pitcher every year.

by Gopherballs on Jun 1, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't realize that about the xFIP and batted ball data

I’m sure I read it at some point, but, well, you know…

If I get a sec, I’d like to do a time-weighted avg. of his FIPs/tERA to see if it drops closer to 4.5 (though the precision is probably gone out the window)

Would you like to follow me on Twitter, Facebook, or my blog...well you can't.

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jun 1, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Keep in mind

that this year is only the first of Bannister’s Moorean primes; he’ll hit another in 2012.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jun 1, 2010 4:53 PM EDT reply actions  

The sad part of 2010 as a whole to me:

Yeah, Banny probably is about what he should be for the forseeable future. People could reasonably argue that there is still at least a small amount of hope for some upside potential for both Davies and Hochevar, I suppose.

I know ERA is not the best stat for evaluating – but it’s really depressing to me that all 3 of these guys are WELL ABOVE league avg ERA at this point in their careers. We all spend a lot of time bitching about the problems this team has scoring runs – but so far in 2010, the pitching has been a FAR GREATER problem, and that’s despite a marginally improved defense behind them.

Bottom line – I want to see the Royals trade at least 2 of these 3 guys as soon as the next wave is ready. I suppose I would say keep Hochevar, because I think there is more upside potential there than either of the other two. (but boy, he sure is slow to show it if it’s really there)

"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009

"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876

by loyal2sdad on Jun 1, 2010 5:03 PM EDT reply actions  

davies and bannister

are probably just place holders at this point

by Freneau on Jun 1, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure either makes it to free agency before being non-tendered

Davies is a free agent after next season, and is due a decent raise in this last year of arbitration. Bannister misses free agency after next season by a matter of days (if Moore is good at one thing, it is gaming service time), but would be due decent arbitration-fueled raises in 2011 and 2012. With the raises due Greinke, Butler, and company, Moore may not want to pay Davies $3 million or Bannister $4 million. A Mark Teahen-style “give me anything” trade is also a distinct possibility.

by Gopherballs on Jun 1, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Last night's game, more of the same

Banny being Banny
K/9……..BB/9…….HR/9……ERA
5.06…….1.69…….1.69…….5.06

Would you like to follow me on Twitter, Facebook, or my blog...well you can't.

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jun 2, 2010 12:36 PM EDT reply actions  

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