Dayton Moore Worked For The Braves
by Freneau on Jun 20, 2010 7:32 AM EDT
in Honoring & Remembering Former Kansas City Royals
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PrintAfter being the head of international scouting for two years, Dayton Moore was named the Braves' Director of Player Personnel in 2002.
| Rk | Year | Tm | Lg | G | W | L | W-L% | Finish | Playoffs | R | RA | BatAge | PitchAge |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2 | 2009 | Atlanta Braves | NL East | 162 | 86 | 76 | .531 | 3rd of 5 | 735 | 641 | 28.8 | 29.0 | |
| 3 | 2008 | Atlanta Braves | NL East | 162 | 72 | 90 | .444 | 4th of 5 | 753 | 778 | 27.1 | 28.6 | |
| 4 | 2007 | Atlanta Braves | NL East | 162 | 84 | 78 | .519 | 3rd of 5 | 810 | 733 | 27.6 | 29.4 | |
| 5 | 2006 | Atlanta Braves | NL East | 162 | 79 | 83 | .488 | 3rd of 5 | 849 | 805 | 27.4 | 29.4 | |
| 6 | 2005 | Atlanta Braves | NL East | 162 | 90 | 72 | .556 | 1st of 5 | Lost LDS (3-1) | 769 | 674 | 28.1 | 28.6 |
The Braves had a tremendous run in the late 1980s and early 1990s. They pulled off one of the best trades of all-time (Smoltz), one of the best free agent signings of all-time (Maddux), and one of the best international signings of all time (A. Jones). They augmented that with the drafting and development of C. Jones and Glavine. Hey, what an easy "formula" to follow. How stupid all these other teams must be for not doing it!
They had many other good players, and became one of the true "big market" teams for awhile. So many random guys passed through their organization in the late 1990s and early 2000s that it's fairly astounding. Their outfield was like the '00 Royals, except instead of guys who sucked, they were all FA All-Stars on short contracts. The Braves had a reputation for knowing pitching and being great developers of pitching for 15 years, but it was mostly just the reputation of Glavine and Smoltz driving that. Kevin Millwood, drafted in 1993, became very good in the late 1990s. To a degree, that was the peak of the Braves' system and a continuation of the legend. It was also the beginning of the end.
Baseball America always loved their system, and everyone in the game could talk about their method in a two minute window if they needed to kill time, so the legend lived on. They just scout the South super closely, it's like soooo awesome and cool! Kyle Davies and Jeff Francoeur will be stars!
Look at their B-R page: the Braves were an old team throughout the 2000s. They were no longer winning with young players they'd produced, they were winning with old players they'd produced, and random FAs. Mike Hampton, Russ Ortiz, Shane Reynolds, Paul Byrd, Jaret Wright, the list just goes on. They were basically the Cardinals. Holding on with a great core.
Finally, that core got too old. There were some young players who contributed, but on the whole, the next wave of prospects never came. The Braves were making a painful transition from a large-market to a small-market club. They needed cheap young players. The next wave of prospects that Dayton Moore was supposed to deliver never came. The streak was over.
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weird
how much better the Braves are with Heyward in RF instead of Francoeur
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color me....shocked
:)
Given enough velocity even a pig will fly
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jun 18, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
The greatest smoke screen
is the notion that Dayton “built” the Braves while he was there with his exceptionally ability to find talent. Who in the last 6 years have they produced that has been a start or even an above average player? Yunel Escobar? Tommy Hanson? The wonders of Dayton continue.
Well done Will
Well, he's no Jason Kendall
but I think Brian McCann might be able to help a team
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
signed by the Braves in 1996
don’t know what capacity Dayton was serving in during that time (I assume Furcal would have been in int’l development’s domain), but he was there, somewhere.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Moore had only been a scout for 2 years at that time
I guess its possible, but I don’t think he was a big player by then
And there never will be another Kendall. Eva again. So sayith me.
-Chen Almighty
Given enough velocity even a pig will fly
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jun 18, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know
The implied conclusion here is that DM didn’t do a great job as Director of Player Personnel for the Braves, but I don’t know how well this data supports the conclusion. There’s too much stuff going into the data that you’ve cited that would have been out of DM’s control. Maybe some sort of chart showing the Braves’ organizational strength in terms of players 28 and younger from 2002 onward would be more specific to DM’s function. Something like summing the quality of their farm system with the strength of their young MLB players might produce a better statistic to gauge DM’s performance in this role.
the braves also went from a big market club to a mid market club
they needed to rely MORE on young players, not less, and their young players weren’t good enough
Looking at DF's lists below
It looks like they actually did have a bunch of talent. Escobar, Andrus, Salty, Francoeur and Davies are all useful MLB players. It’s not a franchise-changing crop of talent, but it’s certainly not evidence of a poor player development model.
McCann!
Sorry, I’m not a big McCann fanboy, it’s just weird that people keep forgetting him.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, it does
Almost young enough to be Chipper Jones’ kid (ahem)
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
he's still putting up 4 to 5 win seasons, though, and he's on his way again
not many catchers do that
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
no doubt...
just a weird career path
when you do what he did at 22… you naturally think, this guy is going to be a MONSTER at his peak
weird power outage
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, missed McCann
on second thought, that seems like quite a good haul of talent from the farm system. If Moore manages to churn out 3 good MLB players and a few ok MLB players every couple years for the Royals, we’ll be in decent shape.
Sounds like Baird.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
I seem to remember you taking issue with my insanely long Braves’ draft entries over at Royalscentricity, too. Obviously, there’s going to be some overreaching when applying success of a franchise in terms of producing talent from the farm, but some of the onus would lie with Moore, as that was what he was kind of his job.
Hating life as a Royals fan 365 days a year at Royalscentricity
by Old Man Duggan on Jun 20, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Top 20 Braves prospects of 2005
Andy Marte, 3B, A
Kyle Davies, RHP, B+*
Jacob Stevens, LHP, B+
Jeff Francoeur, OF, B+
Brian McCann, C, B+
Chuck James, LHP, B-
Anthony Lerew, RHP, B- *
Ryan Langerhans, OF, B-
Kelly Johnson, OF, C+
Jarrod Saltalamacchia, C, C+
Chris Vines, RHP, C+
Luis Atilano, RHP, C+
Macay McBride, LHP, C+
Brayan Pena, C, C+ *
Kevin Barry, RHP, C+
Wilson Betemit, 3B, C+ *
J.C. Holt, 2B, C+
Martin Prado, 2B, C+
Blaine Boyer, RHP, C
Bill McCarthy, OF, C
I’m not judging Dayton’s development of them, but just take a look at the asterisks… guess what they denote? 20%? Stunning, really.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 2:32 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
He's just familiar with them!!!!
(and they have those blackmail pic)
Given enough velocity even a pig will fly
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jun 18, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
and how many of
them we have recycled!
~~~if there is one thing i absolutely know for sure its... ummmm uhhh.... uhhh
nevermind
such a gigantic middle finger to Allard
(maybe justified, i don’t know)
yea, these guys I developed 3 years ago are still better than whatever I’m seeing here
Thank you Will
for showing us the man behind the curtain.
Given enough velocity even a pig will fly
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jun 18, 2010 2:32 PM EDT reply actions
BA's Braves top 10 2004 (don't know exactly what it means, but it's worth posting)
1. Jeff Francoeur, of
2. Andy Marte, 3b
3. Brian McCann, c
4. Kyle Davies, rhp
5. Anthony Lerew, rhp
6. Jake Stevens, lhp
7. Luis Hernandez, ss
8. Kelly Johnson, of
9. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, c
10. Blaine Boyer, rhp
1. Andy Marte, 3b
2. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, c
3. Elvis Andrus, ss
4. Yunel Escobar, ss
5. Anthony Lerew, rhp
6. Joey Devine, rhp
7. Chuck James, lhp
8. Brandon Jones, of
9. Eric Campbell, 3b
10. Beau Jones, lhp
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.
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With this core
I predict the Braves will win their division in 2007.
you could open a home depot with that many tools
Salty and Marte will anchor their infield for the next decade
One interesting facet
so many of those guys aren’t in ATL any more, for better or worse
Marte… wtf… everyone thought he would be good, right? Well, it’s an exception — Longoria, ZImmerman, Moustakas — that’s the rule.
Salty was blocked (rightly) and either isn’t very good or is hurt all the time, depending on whom you ask
Elvis Andrus… okay, he can defend, but if his bat keeps improving, yikes
Yunel is good, although I think he’s overrated
Lerew is a stud
Joey Devine — good reliever for the As when healthy
Chuck James — great name
Brandon Jones — waived
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Andrus will finish in the top 5 in MVP voting one of these years
and it will be incredibly undeserved
Really? I dunno
if Chone Figgins can deserve it, so can Elvis Andrus
near-league average hitter at 21, and he’s a stud defender? I don’t think it’s unreasonable. Take a +10 defensive shortstop, give him a fluky +10 offensive season, and you’ve got a nearlly 5 win player.
Mike Aviles put up 4.4 wins or whatever in 109 games in 2008… I love Aviles, but he doesn’t have the abilities Andrus does. I’m not an Andrus fanboy, but the kid is really good.
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
well, it'll be an ironic convergence
People voted for Figgins because of versatility and little things, not because he’d somehow gotten to the point where he was consistently posting .380 OBPs (or whatever)
I’m just not a huge fan of Andrus’s offense, but I guess given his age and ability to break even thus far, I should be
I wasn't either
and I’m not sure what his upside is, either, but I guess I was impressed by a .324 wOBA, even in Texas — I though he would be more like a .300 wOBA guy at first
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
the best part of it is
that he was part of a trade Wren made for what, two half-seasons of Teixeira? what was the rest of the haul for TEX? Salty, Holland, Feliz?
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
oops, not Holland
Matt Harrison and Beau Jones
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
and turned him back into Adam LaRoche
it’s the circle of life
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you think
Andrus is better than Escobar?
With crappy overpaid vets of course!
by TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect on Jun 18, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not one to trust on stuff like this
I think he’s probably not quite as good right now, but probably will be — Andrus is 21, Yunel is 27
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The question you should of asked
Is Andrus better Yuniesky +HANDS Betancourt?
Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.
Completly Disagree
At his age the development is showing great natural skills and that he can learn to get better as well. I don’t know what he’s done at 20 to deserve such pessimism except it’s a rule none of the guys on the list can be good to prove a point
but seriously
TPJ, JR.!
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
TPJJ!
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure about that
but I’m pretty sure Blaine Boyer got the crap beat out of him weekly in jr. high because of his name
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by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
a negative piece on Dayton?
i'm shocked, shocked!
BOOM YOSTED!
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Jun 18, 2010 3:23 PM EDT reply actions
the good news is
by 2010, we can almost evaluate the braves system in the mid 2000s according to dayton’s rubric
so 5 years is too much time to evaluate?
i’m just trying to figure out what the story is here…is anyone not aware that DM was with the Braves? is what you’re saying that anything positive that happened while DM was with the Braves had nothing to do with him, and everything bad was because of DM?
DM has not done a good job thus far, and I’m fairly sure that this has been covered and debated ad nauseum. soo…..what exactly is the point?
i would really like to see a similar thorough analysis of our resident golden boy, Jack Z. Boy, he sure is doing a great job in Seattle, and look at all of the talent that the Brewers’ system continues to churn out! If only the Royals had him running our franchise into the ground instead of Seattle’s, we’d be set.
BOOM YOSTED!
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Jun 18, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I know we just aren't going to agree on Dayton, and that's fine
but imagine everything that happens in 2006 stalls, and he’s looking for a job in 2008 or 2009
theres no way he’s remotely as attractive as a GM candidate
ultimately, in the things that matter, his contributions to the braves were pretty small. they didn’t maybe seem that way at the time, but that’s what happened
i said nothing about Dayton
i know he’s sucked.
even though i’m president of his fan club. (i dunno how to do the sarcasm font thing)
baseball rules.
I believe I'm actually president of the Dayton Moore fanclub at RR
since I’m willing to give him an ‘Incomplete’ instead of a ‘Failed.’ My position for a while has been that while his moves at the MLB level have been less than good (but not quite as bad as his reputation suggests), his focus has been treading water at the MLB level until the farm system comes around. Since he started out drafting high schoolers, you’re just not going to be able to assess how he’s done until his guys have been in the system for 4 or 5 years.
Anyway, if you’re willing to give DM an ‘Incomplete’ for another year or two, you might have what it takes for VP of the DM Fanclub. Applications are still being accepted, but I will note that we recently received a strong resume from one Rany Jazayerli, and we’re considering offering him the position.
I'd be willing to give him more time
If he weren’t such an imcompetent boob at the MLB level.
by AxDxMx on Jun 18, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What all has he done at the MLB level?
Meche, Guillen, Bannister, Davies, Gathright, Jacobs, Crisp, Kendall, Farnsworth, Yuni, Cruz? (3+ million dollar minimum—I’m sure I’m missing some)
Meche, Banny and Davies have been positives. Crisp and Cruz didn’t turn out well, but they weren’t really bad moves. Guillen’s the only one that really kills you. The rest were bad but not awful.
All in all, it’s a bad track record, but it’s not quite as bad as his reputation in the blog world suggests. Before someone yells at me, I’ll say it one more time: it’s a bad track record. DM’s reputation in the blog world is just really really really bad.
Crisp was an awful move.
Meche isn’t looking so hot right now. Is Davies really a positive?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
Yes, to Davies
We gave up nothing for him. He’s has been and continues to be better than half a season of Dotel-injuries.
Crisp was an okay move. Pre-injury, it looked like a very good move, but of course, you knew when he was acquired that he was an injury risk. It didn’t pan out, but it wasn’t a bad gamble.
And Meche was definitely a good signing. He was a 5 WAR player for the Royals in 2007 and 2008 that was getting paid like a 3 WAR player. He’s injured right now and that’s unfortunate, but again, there’s a risk of injury whenever you sign someone. Even with the bad luck (and bad decisions) leading to Meche missing large amounts of playing time and being ineffective through others, he still has a good chance to produce enough to be worth his full contract. When a player suffers through major injuries during his contract and is still worth the amount you paid him, that’s a sign that it was a good contract to begin with.
Lets evaluate Meche at the end of the contract.
He was good the first two years. I still disagree with the Crisp move not just because his arms blew up but because GMDM gave away a solid reliever for a guy that wasn’t going to play in Boston and had a history of injuries. As far as Davies goes, yeah he has given the Royals more than half a season of Dotel but if Dayton could have opened his eyes to NONFUCKINGBRAVES he might have gotten a legit back end pitcher.
Again, the point of all this is that even Dayton Moore’s “good moves” are highly debatable.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
Don't forget the
“cost controlled reliever” part, and the we could control him for 6 more years part too (or however long it was).
I don’t think there is any other way to qualify the Jacobs, Farnsworth, Yuni, Kendall, and Gathright acquisitions than to say they’re awful.
Kendall got $6 mil for two years when in-house alternatives Buck and Olivo have both been more productive in other climes for considerably less money.
Farnsworth was grotesquely overpaid far too early in the free agency signing period and has been relegated to mop up duty because every time he has been handed a lead he has squandered it.
Jacobs blocked Kila for a year and has no business being in the Majors.
Acquiring Yuni and his horrible contract for anything is ridiculous. He was likely going to be cut loose and if Moore really wanted him could have done so for league minimum. Instead he gave up two prospects, one of whom was highly regarded enough to yield something of worth in return.
Gathright was awful because he cost them J.P. Howell, who has been a very good reliever (yes, I know he’s injured now).
I’ll grant you Meche as having worked out. The injuries are a result of having been abused.
I don’t know that Davies has been a positive, but I wouldn’t say awful and he cost them two weeks of Octavio Dotel, so in that regard I’m fine with him.
Crisp should have been good, but who knows when he was actually injured. If he was already hurt when they traded for him (which he very well may have been), then it is Moore and Schwartz’s fault.
Hating life as a Royals fan 365 days a year at Royalscentricity
by Old Man Duggan on Jun 20, 2010 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions
kinda sad we didn't do that Milton Bradley for Guillen deal
this team just doesn’t produce enough outs
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he just got credit for the foundations laid by Dean Taylor
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.
Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.
by Matt Klaassen on Jun 18, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
gallardo, fielder, braun, hart, weeks, escobar, hardy, etc.
i dont know how long jack z was in charge there, but thats a whole lot of talent
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Jun 18, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
a player is only as good as the sum of his tools
You nerds need to put away your calculators and start looking at what really matters. Talkin’ bout things like speed, strength, vertical leap, height, cranial measurements, finger length, bladder size, heart rate, white blood cell count, and….did I mention speed?
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