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Around SBN: Dog Football! Which Breeds Are Best Suited For The Gridiron?

And I want to ask a question, and I hope it’s a rhetorical question: Can you really call Dayton Moore the worst GM in baseball, or even one of the worst GMs in baseball, when he’s built the #1 farm system in the game in three years?

over 1 year ago Tiny Boots 58 205 comments 0 recs  | 

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Yes. Yes you can.

Next question.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 28, 2010 11:01 AM EDT reply actions  

I think it depends on what Rany was trying to say.

Is he the “worst” GM? Probably not. Is he “one of the worst”? Probably.

If what Rany was saying is that maybe GMDM is not absolutely positively the worst GM in baseball, as many of us here have come to believe, then I can see his point. If Rany’s saying that building a top-rated farm system means that GMDM is some how not a below-average GM, then I think we would all have to disagree.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

If building the farm system is even 1/3 of a GM's job

Then DM has been at least average as a GM overall. He’s far from Minaya, Towers, Ricciardi, etc.

- "But Frank, that's the worst shortstop in the league."
- "That's what they keep tellin' me."

by hawkinscm87 on Jul 28, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Um...

Neither Towers nor Ricciardi are currently GMs. but in any case, the (mostly) Towers-built Padres are currently winning the NL West…t

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Define "far from"

Minaya – sure we’d probably prefer Moore.
Towers – he went to the WS and some NLCS, so I’m not sure how he is worse than Moore. Then he had a run of seasons not so different from Moore’s run right now, and he got fired.
Ricciardi – at least he understands that the FO has to employ scouting AND stats.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah but Ricciardi had bad ML GMing perfected.

He was responsible for two of the worst contracts in baseball. Vernon Wells and Alex Rios.

- "But Frank, that's the worst shortstop in the league."
- "That's what they keep tellin' me."

by hawkinscm87 on Jul 28, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rios was not a bad contract at the time

it was perfectly appropriate, as the current season shows. And Wells was only slightly over market value.

And neither compares to the the Soriano/Zambrano contracts handed out by the NL Central’s answer to Dayton Moore: Jim Hendry, who put together the #1 farm system in baseball back in 2002, so he is definitely not one of the worst GMs, right?

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

They do compare.

Isn’t Rios making like $18MM or something like that? He’s still not worth that.

- "But Frank, that's the worst shortstop in the league."
- "That's what they keep tellin' me."

by hawkinscm87 on Jul 28, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wrong

Rios isn’t even making $10M this season, then gets a raise to about $12 and then $13M later, in 2008 he made less than $1M and in 2009 he made $6M. Other than his disaster 2009 season, he’s EASILY been worth the money he’s been paid, and projected to be such, even accounting for the backloading.

It’s Zambrano who’s getting $18M/per (with a player option down the road for $199M). Soriano is getting $18M/per through 2014. Both are older and inferior to rios.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes, indeed

Maybe he takes good depositions but he’s super-shitty at trial.

Would you want him representing you?

"Shot by my own men."

by StonewallPDS on Jul 28, 2010 11:02 AM EDT reply actions  

You can call him a great scouting director

But I reserve judgment on being a good GM until he shows he has any competence in the area of acquiring current major league talent.

"Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic."

by MinnesotaRoyal on Jul 28, 2010 11:03 AM EDT reply actions  

Agreed

But none of HIS minor leaguers are in the major leagues yet. His moves so far have sucked, but I find it hard to say he is the worst GM when he has taken us from one of the worst minor league systems to one of the best

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

He isn't clearly the worst

but he’s definitely one of the worst

Particularly if you look just at the AL. Dayton would be a C+ in the NL, but he might be as high as a D+ in the AL.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I dont think he's one of the best either

But he’s done a big part of the job he was hired to do, develop the minor leagues. Obviously he’s brought in some bad players (guillen, jacobs, etc), but he hasn’t sent good players out. If Buck or Nunez are the worst players to leave, that’s not so bad.

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

we'll see what happens

I don’t think he’s going to trade away his guys as easily, but we’ll see exactly how he fills the one or two spots he needs to that the farm system hasn’t, since clearly, we’re going to have between a 90-99% prospect success rate.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

It will be interesting to see if his philosophy changes

once he has HIS guys in the majors, or if he keeps bringing in Yuni/Kendall type players. Ill ignore the 90%.

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Highly rated prospects in AA and AAA have a pretty good chance of becoming solid MLB players. The Royals have 5 consensus Top 40 prospects in AA or AAA, and Kila, Colon, Myers, Crow and a few bullpen arms are all in the mix to start helping out at the big league level soon. The Royals don’t need a 90-99% success rate with their prospects to get a whole lot better really soon.

by kcdc1 on Jul 28, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know you are joking, but what if the Royals hit an outlier in prospect development?

What if this is the most legendary class to come up over the course of 2 years (2011-2012)? Outliers do occur.

Are there any other similar farm systems over the last 25 years that have produced a massive tsunami of talent? TB comes to mind, but I’ve never been much of a prospect hound, so I don’t really know how their system would have compared to the Royals at this point in their development.

by AxDxMx on Jul 28, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

TB for sure, but Baltimore provides a good lesson too

The O’s were hurt in the rankings because their top prospects moved fast through the minors and played enough to lose their rookie eligibility, but the core of young talent is impressive.

Nick Markakis was already there but young and under club control
Matt Wieters was rated the no. 1 prospect in baseball
Brian Matusz was rated in Top 5 and the top lefthander overall
Chris Tillman was a Top 25 and probably would have been higher last year if he had not lost rookie eligibility
Adam Jones was around Top 25 prospect when he lost his rookie eligibility and likely would have rated hire if he had not prematurely lost his rookie eligibility
Josh Bell was a Top 50 prospect this year
Jake Arrietta was a Top 100 prospect this year
Nolan Reimold was three-start prospect who looked like a league average corner man
Felix Pie was a former top prospect who was still only 25

This impressive core, however, was surrounded with veteran flotsam like Garrett Atkins and Miguel Tejeda. When all of the young players did not immediately produce in the majors, the team sank like a rock. But even if the young players had still contributed as expected, the O’s would still not be close to competive.

The Rays, on the other hand, have surrounded their home grown core with major league talent by trading their mediocre veterans for more young players and giving opportunities to freely available talent.

by Gopherballs on Jul 28, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

And the Rays back their MiLB scouting up with numbers,

in some sort of weird coincidence with their successful farm system.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW

Baseball America #1 Top Minor League Organization

2010 – Tampa Bay
2009 – Texas
2008 – Tampa Bay
2007 – Tampa Bay
2006 – Arizona
2005 – LA Angels
2004 – Milwaukee
2003 – Cleveland
2002 – Chi Cubs
2001 – Chi White Sox

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 28, 2010 11:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Let's hope that string of Tampa Bay being #1 is over

And that we can take their place for a few years.

"Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic."

by MinnesotaRoyal on Jul 28, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Did you read the article?

Rany notes the strength of TB and Texas, as well as Red Sox and Phillies. The quotes of people saying the Royals may be #1 are not his own quotes.

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

My post wasn't a response to the article

I just wanted to know who has been #1 the last decade, and whether it has translated to on-field success.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 28, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seems like good news

How many of those teams didn’t make the playoffs within 3 years of BA ranking their farm system #1? I’ll go ahead and count Texas as making the playoffs.

by kcdc1 on Jul 28, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good point

wish you hadn’t beaten me to it

Overgay is Destiny

by DCRoyals on Jul 28, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Where are the historical rankings for each year?

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Since Jim Hendry was the scouting director who built the 2002 Cubs into the #1 farm system

can we really say he is one of the worst GMs in baseball?

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

No you can't.

And no I don’t think he is.

"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

by timlacy on Jul 28, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also FWIW

I believe all the teams listed above (dating back to 2010) have made the playoffs since being named #1.

Overgay is Destiny

by DCRoyals on Jul 28, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

But let me turn this around a little and ask: in the four years that Moore has been the GM of the Royals, who is the best player that he’s given away? As best as I can tell, your choices are between Leo Nunez and J.P. Howell – a pair of fine relievers, but they’re just that, relievers.

He has brought in some shitty players, true, but he hasn’t sent off any talent either. They’re all still in OUR system, waiting to get to the majors. Hopefully Moore starts unloading useless talent soon to allow Kila and others to start getting their chance in the majors, but at least he hasn’t sent off anyone important

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions  

He hasn't shipped off any good players because our system was completely devoid of talent

They are now all his guys. The only exception being Kila, and he was injured/not very good when DM first showed up.

by AxDxMx on Jul 28, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm saying he hasn't moved anyone that turned out good somewhere else that was an under the radar type

Rany makes some examples in there that are pretty good. He hasn’t sent off any of the incumbants or his guys that hurt our system really

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

And what I'm saying is, none of those guys have turned into anything anyways.

From July’s Prospect Pulse by nwroyal, these are the guys in the top 50 that were here pre-Dayton (5-31-06):

10. Kila
13. Derrick Robinson (’06 draftee – did DM help w/ draft or not?)
37. Mario Santiago
41. Jeff Bianchi
45. Jarrod Dyson (another ’06 draftee)
48. Ed Lucas
49. Chris McConnell

So 7 players, 2 are questionable that they aren’t DM’s guys, and only 1 in the top 10. Bianchi would be much higher without the injury, so you could count him top 20. So what I’m saying is there was no danger in trading anyone away as no one has developed into anything, other than Leo Nunez and JP Howell of course, but they are just relievers so it’s not a terrible sin (JP is missing 2010 with shoulder surgery). The sin was in what we acquired for them.

Oh, and considering Dyson and DRob’s skillsets, I’m pretty sure DM drafted these guys. Dayton likes guys like Joey Gathright for some reason.

by AxDxMx on Jul 28, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you btw

Hard to tell if he was the GM for the draft, he was hired right before the draft, but wasn’t officially GM til afterwards

I guess that none of them have become anything, but that says something about the job DM’s done since he has been here. We do have pieces that could turn into good players now, unlike before.

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree he's done a good job with the drafts.

Considering he’s been here for 4-5 drafts, I would think the list should look like this though. I mean if you were drafted in 2005, that’s 5 years of development at this point, so you probably aren’t going anywhere to quickly.

by AxDxMx on Jul 28, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the final verdict

seems to be that he wasn’t technically allowed to have any input on the #1 pick, but after that he was involved.

I am now channeling Will McDonald's optimism.

by jonfmorse on Jul 28, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

well, he also inherited DDJ, Greinke and Butler

as well as Teahen and Buck

I know they weren’t “in the system” but they were assets he inherited

by Freneau on Jul 28, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

And not so much that Buck is gone, but the

drop in talent that resulted from replacing him with Kendall

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

For more money

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

we are

critical spirits all

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're all going to Royals Hell

Oh wait, we’ve already been there.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Royals Hell might actually be like heaven

trip on that sh— for a while!

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, who could he have gotten rid of that was any good?

Soria, DeJesus, Butler, Greinke (maybe Gordon)…and that’s it. So kudos to him for not trading/releasing any of the team’s top 4 players.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, and IF he turned down Montero-for-Soria

yes, I have no problem saying he’s one of the worst in baseball

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 11:25 AM EDT reply actions  

I thought you didn't believe that rumor

But I agree, that would be a tough one to get around

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't believe it would happen before the rumor

I still find the rumor hard to believe (hence the IF), but it seems to be about as well-attested as any of these hypotheticals go.

If so, I was wrong — the Yankees really are freaking out over their bullpen.

But, if so, I’m even more depressed that Dayton didn’t jump on it.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't it be difficult

to say yes to the Montero deal with Soria having a no-trade clause toward the Yankee’s?

"This guy here is DEAD!"
"Cross him OFF then!"

by Casper01 on Jul 28, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Does Dayton not have Soria's agent's phone number?

It’s not as if that no-trade clause was chiseled into one of Moses’ stone tablets.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really doesn't matter

We also don’t know that Moore DIDN’T call his agent and was told Soria didn’t want to go there. Whatever the case may be, without details beyond what we know definitively – that the no-trade clause exists, that’s all we know for certain – we’re simply guessing. To say that Moore didn’t call his agent or didn’t try or that the Yankee’s simply needed to pick up his options, etc – it’s all just guesswork.

"This guy here is DEAD!"
"Cross him OFF then!"

by Casper01 on Jul 28, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well then we don't know

that “it would be difficult” for Moore to say yes to a Montero-for-Soria deal. It shouldn’t be a major impediment at all, and I highly doubt Moore would have thought so if he had actually gotten that offer.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, to be clear

I wasn’t saying it as a statement of absolution, as you frame it. It was part of a question – you put quote marks around a phrasing that I didn’t even use. But that’s just semantics.

I will say this – if he had been offered Montero, then I agree that he should have done everything he could to try and get the deal done.

"This guy here is DEAD!"
"Cross him OFF then!"

by Casper01 on Jul 28, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it wouldn't

that would be up to the Yankees to negotiate, as others pointed out, Soria would probably want them to guarantee some of the club options or something like that.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe so

I suppose I’m looking beyond the numbers and focusing on the person: I just get the impression, from how Soria presents himself to the public at least (which could be a complete ruse, I admit), that his isn’t the personality that would like to play in such an intense atmosphere. You may be right.

"This guy here is DEAD!"
"Cross him OFF then!"

by Casper01 on Jul 28, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I just think that we know enough now

to know that we know basically NOTHING about any athelete or celebrity’s “real” personality other than “money talks.”

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

LeBron's got to do what's best for LeBron

That is unless the celebrity is Tom Brady – I know his every thought and action.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I suppose that's one way to view it.

"This guy here is DEAD!"
"Cross him OFF then!"

by Casper01 on Jul 28, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

definitely

Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com

by kcscoliny on Jul 28, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Schaum reporting Duffy moving up to AA

that means NW Arkansas has
Crow
Lamb
Dwyer
Duffy
Osuna as SPs with Montgomery possibly up by the end of the year. That’s quite the starting 5 for AA.

Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com

by kcscoliny on Jul 28, 2010 11:30 AM EDT reply actions  

Like next week?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Jul 28, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

He says "soon"

Although I guess it could be a little while, but he says that he expects all of them to be in the rotation together at the same time. Not sure any of them have the possibility to move up this year, so it could be a ways from now.

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

2010 TEXAS LEAGUE CHAMPIONS!!

The Royals are now accepting design proposals for the flag at the K.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aren't you snarky.

- "But Frank, that's the worst shortstop in the league."
- "That's what they keep tellin' me."

by hawkinscm87 on Jul 28, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like this comment, as it is relevant

But I tire of “flags at the K” comments

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

True

Just like you have to keep replenishing your farm system, you also have to keep your snark fresh.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope they aren't rushing him back make sure his arm is good

Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com

by kcscoliny on Jul 28, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

(Assuming Monty replaces Osuna)

When your worst AA starter could spend 5 years in an MLB rotation and still be a disappointment, you know you might have something.

by kcdc1 on Jul 28, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes Rany, you can

In the same way that a Dentist who is really good at Root Canal’s but absolutely appalling at Extractions, Fillings and Veneers is an awful dentist.

Dayton has done good things for the minors. That does not mask the complete and utter incompetence at nearly every other facet of the GM job.

by kcbottom9th on Jul 28, 2010 11:41 AM EDT reply actions  

Yawn

We’ll see if he’s still widely considered one of the worst GMs in 3 years.

by kcdc1 on Jul 28, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dan O'Dowd was considered terrible at first

and I think, while he isn’t considered the best and the brightest, I do not hear anyone still calling him terrible.

"This guy here is DEAD!"
"Cross him OFF then!"

by Casper01 on Jul 28, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

Who gives a fuck whteher he is or isn’t “the worst”?

What matters is that he sucks. Whether he is 2nd or 4th is the old angels on a pinhead argument. A pointless diversion from what really matters, which is that he isn’t good, and has shown no prospensity to improve.

by kcbottom9th on Jul 28, 2010 11:44 AM EDT reply actions  

Out of loyalty?

Out of a sincere belief that he is suddenly going to learn how to evaluate players over 22?

I would give him a hearty congratualtions, tell him he has laid the foundations for future sucess, give him a nice golden handshake and then bring in someone who has shown he is actually competent at the MLB level to fill in the gaps around the prospects.

Because that last point is necessary. All these stud prospects will be in vain if they are supplemented by the kind of crap that Dayton Moore thinks are good baseball players.

This can all get personal sometimes, and it shouldn’t. I’m sure Dayton Morre is a nice guy who is genuinly giving everything he has to make the Royals sucessful. But he has shown repeatedly that everything he has just doesn’t cut it.

by kcbottom9th on Jul 28, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Where would we find this "proven" gm that isn't already employed?

People keep throwing this around, but I dont understand where we would find this. Just keep firing and rehiring GMs and wait until we find someone that works? What if our minor league teams suck by then?

I think Moore at least deserves to see his guys in the major leagues and to see how he fits pieces around those players, then see if that team is a winner or not. The key is to have the core of your team in place, built from your own farm, then to add players. All Moore’s done so far is add players without his core. Most of these players have been bad.

And no, this shouldn’t be out of “loyalty.” This is because he has now shown himself competant in a major, major area of being a GM. Let’s see if he can be competant in other areas once he only has to fill in the holes instead of piece together a team from FA.

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never said proven

And I never said he already had to be a GM. There are plenty of highly competent people backing up highly comptent GM’s.

A proper and rigourous interview process would identify them.

It’s all moot anyway. We are clearly stuck with Moore. I hope your right and i’m wrong.

by kcbottom9th on Jul 28, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Me too

Trust me I have my doubts, but I just think it’s different if you have to build around a team instead of building a team through pieces, if you get my meaning.

Maybe Glass (or the new owners) will influence DM to hire someone to help with major league talent. It seems doubtful, but maybe it will happen.

and sorry I said ‘proven.’ That would is usually thrown in there when people make a similar statement.

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wasn't that supposed to be Arbuckle's job?

At least part of it? Of course, it’s far from clear whether he’s good at evaluating MLB talent either.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Arbuckle is rumored to have been very much on board with Yuni

great job evaluating MLB talent

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Arbuckle has Plus Yes Man

and Plus Yes Man

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

great minds think alike, right Dayton?

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope.

To me, this roster has shown enough incompetence that I don’t believe he can piece the rest of it together.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Jul 28, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's also a factor of...

…relativity on the rise of our minor league system. It was probably THE WORST before he got here. So he’s gone from worst to first in the minor leagues. Good. That might get you to the top of the bottom 1/3 of ML GMs. Here’s what he has to do to improve:

1. Hire a first-rate manager. He failed badly with Hillman, but lots of GMs thought Hillman had potential. So it’s hard to be too hard on GMDM for that.
2. Build a first-rate roster. Now this would seem to logically follow from his minor league success. But it has to happen. Show me, as we say.
3. Stop signing stop-gap, over-priced, washed-up, toolsy ML veteran players. There’s a reason why they’re available. Now there could be something going on beyond your control here (e.g. Glass says spend because the owners are tired of giving him money to watch the ML team stink—-in other words, justify profit sharing). But a command to spend doesn’t excuse you from Yuni, Jacobs, etc.

What have I forgotten? Oh:

4. Show some philosophical imagination. Or at least copy Beane with the high OBP/OPS/pitch selection model.

I’m spent. – TL

"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

by timlacy on Jul 28, 2010 12:48 PM EDT reply actions  

except that it wasn't

it wasn’t a good system, but it wasn’t the worst, it was consistently in the low 20s of BA’s rankings

this is all part of the revisionism of the past

by Freneau on Jul 28, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

you mean, unlike now?

Look, Baird had to go, I get that. But it’s just inaccurate for people to consistently say “Moore took over a complete disaster that was just the absolute worst in baseball. WORST.”

by Freneau on Jul 28, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's hard to blame Baird

when he apparently had an annual international prospect signing budget of around $23,000.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Baird's farm was...

…bad—-even if it wasn’t entirely his fault.

"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

by timlacy on Jul 28, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's hard to compare apples-to-apples

GMDM has an entirely different landscape in terms of available money. He has done some good things like adding a farm team, increasing international scouting, etc., but it’s hard to compare to his predecessors since they couldn’t have done those things even if they wanted to.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

With the ridiculous and asinine budget restrictions Baird had

he was essentially working with his 1st and maybe 2nd round draft picks each year. Building a good system under those circumstances is an uphill climb to say the least.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

And yet

Gordon was universally the best or second best prospect in baseball, Greinke is a bona-fide Ace, Butler is a productive bat.

Absolutely no depth, but he produced bits and pieces of real talent.

by kcbottom9th on Jul 28, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

there are 30 teams

it was a bad system, but it wasn’t this historically awful/expansion level WORST SYSTEM EVA EVA thing that it’s been portrayed to be

it just wasn’t

by Freneau on Jul 28, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure whether Will mean "low 20s" ranking-wise or numerically

like, 28 or 22?

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

but really, why even debate it

Moore will build 98% of his team with home grown top 50 prospects who all turn out to be exactly what they project to be given what we think right now

why argue the details?

by Freneau on Jul 28, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

BA ranks from 2001-2006

here

2001: 14
2002: 21
2003: 26
2004: 19
2005: 28
2006: 23

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep

Very bad.

"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

by timlacy on Jul 28, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

averages to 22, I think

21.8, in my head

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

That has to be close to the worst average..

If not the worst. System rankings are Very fluid. A system can go from top-5 to bottom-5 with the graduation of three players. So really these rankings are exactly what they should look like for the worst system in baseball.

by billexgordler on Jul 28, 2010 2:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Without going through them all

the Cardinals were

2001: 23
2002: 30
2003: 28
2004: 28
2005: 30
2006: 23

Don’t think this proves anything anyway, although I think we can all that not having a stud farm system is what has doomed the Cardinals ever since.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've sure missed having Albert Pujols on our team

I get your point. You dont have to have a good farm system to do well.

I wish we had their budget though, and they still appear to be able to grow good talen (Rasmus) throught their system

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

there really isn't a point, at leat as it applies to the Royals

I was just shocked to see how badly the Cardinals ranked during those seasons.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

that is bad

it’s hard to tell if they just moved prospects through the minors or maybe traded them for guys who went to the ML team. very counter-intuitive regardless

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

See my comment below

If you want to say that the DM inherited had a merely below average farm system, then you have to say that he inherited almost no young talent at the MLB level. (Greinke, but he was in the bullpen after, and DDJ if you want to count him.) If you want to say DM inherited Butler and Gordon as young talent at the big league level, then you have to say he inherited substantially zero talent in the farm system. Without Gordon and Butler in that 2006 minor league ranking, I’d be surprised if the Royals farm system wouldn’t have been #30.

by kcdc1 on Jul 28, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Either way, he's done nothing to turn the talent he had into useful pieces for the future.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Jul 28, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW

I believe the 2006 rankings would have included Alex Gordon and Billy Butler at peak hype. In other words, to be as low as #23, the system needed to be completely devoid of talent after those two.

So when we judge what Moore inherited, we can either count Gordon and Butler as farm system assets and say the Royals had a below average farm system and next-to-nothing at the MLB level (Greinke was in the bullpen) or we can count Gordon and Butler as MLB assets and say the farm system had a little young talent on the big league team and a farm system completely devoid of talent.

People seem to want to count Gordon and Butler in both places so it seems like the Royals had a little talent in the minor leagues and a little talent in the big leagues, and then conclude that Moore didn’t walk into THAT bad of a situation. But he did. The cupboard was bare outside of Butler, Gordon and the unexpected redemption of Zack Greinke.

by kcdc1 on Jul 28, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

whoops

Edited that second paragraph and forgot to delete a few words in there. Should have read:

So when we judge what Moore inherited, we can either count Gordon and Butler as farm system assets and say the Royals had a below average farm system and next-to-nothing at the MLB level (Greinke was in the bullpen) or we can count Gordon and Butler as MLB assets and say Moore inherited a little young talent on the big league team and a farm system completely devoid of talent.

by kcdc1 on Jul 28, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, Will, that's...

…not good. To be a small-market team and have your team in 20s of 30 is just no good. I mean, what’s the difference in the farm systems of bottom 6-8 teams? So it’s not complete Revisionism (versus revisionism). – TL

"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

by timlacy on Jul 28, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

The revisionists are those who are saying that the system was NOT the worst.

It goes without saying that the Royals system had trouble producing good major league players throughout the first half of the decade. Three good players were produced by the Royals between 2000-2005: Greinke, DeJesus and Butler. Of course, that’s horrible. For a low-revenue team it’s impossible to even approach competitiveness with such results. But as far as I’m concerned, that’s not the most important factor in just how ineffectual the system was in the early-aughts.

To wit: Under Baird, the Royals system was incapable of producing replacement level players. Ponder that for a moment. And while you’re pondering that, here’s a list of BA Royals top-10 prospects between ‘00-’05 who became at least replacement level players (roughly, and I understand that I’m playing games with the term “replacement level” by assigning it a certain level of performance, but with the way WAR gets used around here, this shouldn’t be an issue for most of us): Maier, Costa, JP Howell, Chad Durbin, Mark Quinn, Ken Harvey, Mike MacDougal, Kyle Snyder, Jimmy Gobble, Mark Ellis, Angel Berroa, Runelvys Hernandez, Jeremy Affeldt, Ruben Gotay, Kila, Mike Aviles and Donald Murphy. Add DeJesus, Butler and Greinke to the list and that makes 20 replacement level or better players that the system produced over a six-year period.

The Royals system was, for all purposes, non-functioning. During this period, the system produced three good players (DeJesus, Butler, Greinke), maybe five or six average players (Howell, Affeldt, Ellis, Maier, Kila and Aviles, and ten or so “replacement level” players.

The effects of this lack of depth cannot be overstated. If your system can’t produce annually players able merely to meaningfully exist as major leaguers, then, for your team, there is no such thing as freely available talent. For the Royals from ‘00-’08, freely available talent was a myth.

Any single season where a system lacks such depth is not catastrophic. However, six seasons in a row of inept drafting and development, when not much depth existed to begin with, destroyed the franchise from the inside out, and created a hole that’s only now been filled in.

The rankings tell only part of the story. In this case, the rankings grossly understate the black hole that was the Royals’ system from 2000-2005.

by billexgordler on Jul 29, 2010 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

His decision-making at the ML level is scary bad...

he might be the best ‘Director of Player Development’ in the game, but that’s not the job he was hired to do.

What scares me is, once his ‘good players’ get here, will GMDM find a way to sink the team through bone-headed and non-sensical roster management/FA signings? I just don’t see how his decision-making process at the Major League level is going to change regardless of what/how players have progressed. I don’t trust him.

by Bart41 on Jul 28, 2010 1:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Maybe it will be different if he only has to add pieces

Maybe not. It would definitely suck if he keeps adding these kind of players once he has good young players available that he drafted.

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Remember that JJ Picollo is the one doing the draft anyway.

So if you really want to criticize Dayton, then that’s how. He isn’t making draft decisions, so what IS he doing? Maybe he have a guy that handles the major leagues and he can just sit back and shut up.

- "But Frank, that's the worst shortstop in the league."
- "That's what they keep tellin' me."

by hawkinscm87 on Jul 28, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't forget most (not all) of the current hot talent

was drafted pre-2009, when Deric Ladnier, replaced by Piccollo, was Director of PLayer Development

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I know, but my point was that it was someone besides Dayton.

- "But Frank, that's the worst shortstop in the league."
- "That's what they keep tellin' me."

by hawkinscm87 on Jul 28, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course, what's impressive is the non-1st round picks that are doing well.

- "But Frank, that's the worst shortstop in the league."
- "That's what they keep tellin' me."

by hawkinscm87 on Jul 28, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah but since then we've got

Aaron Crow and Colon Jr., so na-na, na-na, boo-boo

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is what is so puzzling about this argument for Moore

Ladnier was probably the guy most responsible for the current Royals farm system, right? And Dayton was happy enough with the job he was doing that he fired him.

It’s the same revisionist logic that makes sense of the “I need 8 years to win!” argument Dayton gave in radio interviews a couple of months ago. That sure as hell wasn’t what he was saying when he first got here.

by sumajestad on Jul 28, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Injuries

Now, that’s not an excuse. But…injuries.

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

He clearly thought Piccolo would do better. We have no insights into the decision, and at present, we have no evidence that the change won’t improve the results. Moore’s ultimately in charge of the farm system. He gets the credit when it succeeds and he gets the blame when it fails.

by kcdc1 on Jul 28, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it depends somewhat on how you view the Royals

Would a good GM have put a contender on the field this year? Now, I won’t defend Moore’s love for position players that should be put out to pasture sooner than later, but did anyone expect us to legitimately compete over the past few years? We seem to be a pretty intelligent group here, as opposed to say the Facebook people, and I wouldn’t venture that any of us think this team would be capable of victory with Buck still as our backstop and Gordon, Aviles, Maier, and Kila playing regularly. Would it be preferred? Yes. Would the end result be prettier? Probably not.

The Royals were not going to contend without a full roster overhaul and that is much harder than it seems with guaranteed contracts and the gradual approach necessary to reap rewards from the MLB draft..

I think the largest gripes that we should place at Moore has been his spending. Why fret over paying an average sometimes-power hitting John Buck to be your backup/platoon catcher? Now, if you don’t pay him, why pay someone worse more to do his job? I think his MLB talent evaluation is past shitty at this point, but more than that his knowledge of leverage in negotiation and spending is horrific. He doesn’t seem to get fleeced like Baird did in trades, but he hasn’t yet had any Beltrans to be fleeced on.

If he was the worst, we would be Houston, right? There’s no hope there coming from anywhere.

"It’s not about the guacamole itself," Greinke said. "I just don’t want to let them win."

by Joseph Landis on Jul 28, 2010 1:26 PM EDT reply actions  

yes you can

Moore has spent nearly $100 million on free agents and brought in dozens and dozens of player, and these are the results.

by Gopherballs on Jul 28, 2010 1:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Think it's a well written article

I’ve got a question for all of you who are convinced Moore is one of the worst GM’s in baseball before the verdict is really out.
If in 2 or 3 years the Royals are contending and it is proven that GMDM has done a good job, what will you say? Will you admit you were wrong or just simply forget the years of bashing him and jump on board?

I’m just curious because whether people mean to do this or not is hard to tell, but many people in the last couple years seem as if they root for the Royals to lose and for Moore to fail because he doesn’t have the same ideology towards the game of baseball as they do, which to me, is a horrible fan and a fan that I can’t wait to laugh in the face of IF this thing does turn around. (I’m not saying it will, I’m just willing to actually wait and see before I make conclusions)

by I need more Esteban on Jul 28, 2010 1:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Of course I'll admit I was wrong

I can hope that the Royals are successful, and I do, while at the same time having every expectation that they won’t be unless changes are made.

The two are not linked, and the idea that anybody who advocates change or dislikes Dayton’s system is rooting against the Royals is an necessary and misplaced cheap-shot.

by kcbottom9th on Jul 28, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

so about being a horrible fan...

you might be putting too much of a priority in “laugh(ing) in the face” of other royals fans

by Freneau on Jul 28, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

good grief
a fan that I can’t wait to laugh in the face of IF this thing does turn around. (I’m not saying it will, I’m just willing to actually wait and see before I make conclusions)

Way to take a stand there, Esteban

by Gopherballs on Jul 28, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lets cherry pick one statement

However unnecesarry that statement was.

I know people have made similar comments as esteban does, and this appears to be a pretty big if right now, but I wont how people will act in the future if things turn out well from the current talent in the system.

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gopher

I never said I know what will happen and that is entirely my point.

There are many many things GMDM has done that I don’t like, I’m just not willing to give up on his FO as soon as some.

Will people admit that they were wrong if things don’t turn out how they predict? It seems like most will so far and that I have no problem with, it’s those that wouldn’t that would bother me some. I’ve always had a strong distaste for hypocricy so that’s probably why I was curious about it. Not trying to start any fights here or even make a list of whose on what side, just kind of curious on how people thought they would react.

It probably stems mostly from many peoples high assuredness that this thing won’t work out. There is some writing on the wall for it yes, I just don’t know how anyone can be so convinced when there are so many positives in the overall organization. Guess we’ll see.

by I need more Esteban on Jul 28, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just disagree with the "so many positives" part,

there are a few and they’re still a year or two from being positives in the major leagues.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Jul 28, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

and that is fair

by so many positives I was referring to organizational changes and philosiphies. Part of my problem is comparing these things to what we had before and not the rest of MLB but that is really all I can compare them to because I’ve only been a Royals fan in my life and that life began in 1985.

-Money spent in draft
   -Signing guys above slot
   -Spending the most amount of money in one draft of any organization
-Money spent overseas
    -Under 1 million for 15 or so years before DM was here
-A top 5 minor league system
-Signing homegrown players to contracts before they hit FA
    -Zack Greinke, Joakim Soria, David Dejesus (was he signed by Moore?)

The bad may very well outweigh the good but I guess it’s just a personal opinion that the changes have been positive as a whole when it comes to the organization. The frustration at the top is very warranted and isn’t fun. We could easily be talking in 2 years and nothing is really better and I’m wrong. Shit I hope not.

by I need more Esteban on Jul 28, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Me too.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Jul 28, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll admit to being wrong.

I’ll still say I was surprised, though, just because one of two things will have to happen. GMDM will have to correct his ways about terrible FA signings/contracts (which I see as equivalent to a tiger changing his stripes, so to say) and/or get lucky with some typically bad ML player evaluations that end up working out.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can I laugh in your face when it doesn't turn around?

I’ll admit it if Moore gets better, but I have a feeling the success that might be coming will be solely because of minor league talent, and in that regard I think DM has done one helluva job. But what worries me is that he signs/trades for players like Podsednik, Guillen, Ankiel, Farnsworth, Brian Anderson, Ryan Freel, Yuni, Getz, Gathright, etc. His grand strategy with Meche was to sign him to 5/$55M and trade him after the 3rd year! He’s a joke at the MLB level, and that will leave significant gaps when the prospects come up.

My predictions for Dayton’s offseason signings:
Jose Lopez 2B
Garrett Atkins 3B
Brad Hawpe OF or Willy Taveras
Brian Fuentes RP (proven closer!)

Hopefully these guys are too expensive for the Royals.

by AxDxMx on Jul 28, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

When did I click over to the Facebook/KC Star page?
Can I laugh in your face when it doesn’t turn around?

We have been pretty dogmatic about Moore being a POS. Need-More-Este’s just keeping an open mind (it seems). I think one is more laugh-in-the-face-able than the other, if that person is proven wrong.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

sure

but the thing is that I and others who aren’t willing to say that this regime is already one of the worst in baseball and is doomed for failure already get laughed in our faces (figuratively of course) everytime we post something positive on here through snark anyways. But yes, you may.

by I need more Esteban on Jul 28, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I want to ask a question, and I hope it's a rhetorical question:

Will Rany have to laugh in his own face?

I kid, I kid. I think Rany just gets over-exuberant b/c he’s a passionate fan…he hops on and off the bandwagon, but not b/c he doesn’t root for the Royals, he just can’t decide what is best. I flip-flop, too – I just don’t have an outspoken blog (or radio show, for that matter) about it.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah Rany does flip-flop

a year ago wasn’t he denouncing his fandom practically?

by I need more Esteban on Jul 28, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, sort of.

He was taking a break, which I totally understand, and a lot of people around here have considered (or done) the same. But the cravings drew him back to the sauce that is the Royals: I mean, how are you going to ignore a team that has Samurai Zack on it?

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look I'm excited about the future of our prospects and would be happy to be wrong about DM

But even if he is successful, he could just have a lucky year like the 2003 Royals, which will then be taken as proof of his genius, until the losing starts again the following year. I’d feel better giving the job to some hot shot MBA that has about 5 years experience in a front office like the Red Sox now, instead of waiting to see if DM can prove us all wrong.

by AxDxMx on Jul 28, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll Do Naked

Jumping jacks singing the song of his choice if we’re a contender in 2-3 years.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Jul 28, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

If we aren't

DM is gone so either way I think you’ll be singing and dancin in the cold!

by I need more Esteban on Jul 28, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Dayton was told to win in the future, but try to make the team competitive.

Hence the crappy stop-gap signings.

Maybe not, but I think it’s plausible for Glass to say he wants a team for the fans to be excited about currently, because if you let your ML team slip entirely (and while this team has been very bad, it hasn’t been the worst team in baseball for several years) then you run into fan interest problems. Meche, Guillen, etc. were brought in to address the here and now, completely separate from the future.

by WURoyal on Jul 28, 2010 1:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Even so, why did Farnsworth get $5M per year?

One might be able to justify the Meche and Guillen signings, even if the team had to overpay a little bit. Why is Yuniesky on the team and playing every day? No team philosophy can justify the Farnsworth and Yuni moves.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Farnsworth was a bad contract.

Yuni isn’t nearly as bad in my opinion. He’s an everyday player, acquired at a time when it was up in the air whether Aviles would ever play again. Plus we gave up a kid the organization was tired of dealing with (so the loss is a little less).

I’m not saying DM has done a good job at the ML level, I just think the win now impetus is more of a business decision on the Royals part to at least send the message to the fans that they’re trying, while the real strategy for winning is developing the farm system. In other words, I think DM is given a farm system budget and a roster budget, and I don’t believe he has the ability to take from one area and give to the other.

by WURoyal on Jul 28, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Moore acquired the worst SS in baseball (outside of the player he already had employed at SS)

Not only did he take on Yuni’s contract (except for $2M), but he gave up prospects when by all accounts Seattle was ready to DFA Yuni and he could have been had for free. Signing him off the waiver wire would be fine – give Yuni another shot with no risk to the Royals; giving up players and taking on salary, not so much.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

4th worst wOBA for SS so far in 2010

2nd worst fielder (UZR/150)

Worst wOBA for SS in 2009
Worst fielder

Sometimes it seems like Yuni’s done OK so far this year, but that impression is wrong. 29 other GMs knew it. If the Royals are in contention next year or the year after and Yuni is still hurting the team, this will be the single-biggest mistake by Moore, hands down.

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes, i know.

but it’s not totally unreasonable to suggest that the team could compete for the division (using “compete” liberally, as in within 5 or 10 games)

'The Writers Junction'
in Santa Monica, CA

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

And they're only 5 good days from being 10 games out THIS year!

Contention, baby!!

"Now…put that in your [BLEEP]ing pipe and smoke it." -Hal McRae

"I was doing this when BJ was in his father's nutsack." -Renzo Gracie

by Sweep_the_Leg on Jul 28, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yuni was a win BELOW replacement level last season for the Royals

and he’s below again this season

Even if the Royals had given up nothing and paid him the minimum, that would be a bad deal for the Royals

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

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by Matt Klaassen on Jul 28, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know you’re referring to WAR, but replaced with whom, specifically?

by WURoyal on Jul 28, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

among others

though Aviles was hurt at the time, which seems to have been one of the reasons DM pursued Yuni

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by SagehenMacGyver47 on Jul 28, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Same Problem With

Frenchy. Even if we get him for nothing, he’d actually play, and that’s a negative.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Jul 28, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

But if that was the plan, he's done a shitty job of it.

Heard on the radio today that the pitchers have just given more runs in the last 3 games than any other 3 game stretch in franchise history. That’s the kind of stuff that shouldn’t be happening if this team was making progress toward winning.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Jul 28, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just another day at the park for the Royals

I wonder when we get to see cutoff men hit in the back with a throw again?

by AxDxMx on Jul 28, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

1 : exposure 3b
2 a (1) : an extensive view (2) : a mental consideration : survey b : a place that commands an extensive view : lookout c : something extended to the view : scene d archaic : a sketch or picture of a scene
3 obsolete : aspect
4 a : the act of looking forward : anticipation b : a mental picture of something to come : vision c : something that is awaited or expected : possibility d plural (1) : financial expectations (2) : chances
5 : a place showing signs of containing a mineral deposit
6 a : a potential buyer or customer b : a likely candidate for a job or position
— in prospect : possible or likely for the future

by Peterman700 on Jul 28, 2010 2:09 PM EDT reply actions  

correct

in modern baseball it seems that most high end prospects become something useful, but the point is that for as good as the Royals system is, the Royals are still a terrible team.

If the Royals were smart, they would stop kidding themselves and more importantly the fans, and purge the entire pro roster, including Greinke.

I spent a lot of time last night thinking about it, and I accept the popular opinion that no one of this team should be retained. Greinke, Butler, Soria, whoever.

Just keep adding assets for the future.

by Peterman700 on Jul 28, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then who would go on field?

I mean, you literally have to have people there to play the game

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Warm bodies

Untradable assets.

Let some of the older players play out their contracts.

by Peterman700 on Jul 28, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

But why trade players you have under control through years you expect to compete, just for the sake of trading? Hopefully, Moore has been looking at offers for all these players, but nothing has been good enough. I dont see why you would trade proven MLB players for prospects, just for the sake of getting new players. It should only be done if you think those players will be good MLB players in the future

by Boots 58 on Jul 28, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

As

other people have pointed out, if the Royals can land several high end prospects at key positions, Pitcher, OF, MI, C, then I make those trades.

by Peterman700 on Jul 28, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alienating your fans to that extent might not be smart.

They want to see a competitive product, a team with the ability to win any game.

by WURoyal on Jul 28, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alienating KC fans?

I think that ship has sailed.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Jul 28, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your everyday fan knows the Royals suck

but they have hope every year. Not having that at the start of the season is really bad for fan support (an I’m not talking about the type of fans who go on Royalsreview).

Your everyday fan has to be fleeced into going to a few games a year.

by WURoyal on Jul 28, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still think the everyday fan enters each season with very little hope.

The second home series of the season was empty at the K this year.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Jul 28, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looks like Pod's is at least getting flipped

Scott Podsednik Drawing Strong Interest
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 28 at 12:43pm CST]
WEDNESDAY, 12:43pm: The Dodgers are making the strongest push for Podsednik, tweets Henry Schulman of the San Francisco Chronicle, but the Giants remain involved.

MONDAY, 10:40pm: NL West teams are bombarding the Royals with interest in Scott Podsednik, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (via Twitter). Bob Dutton of the Kansas City Star confirms the report (via Twitter) and so does Ed Price of AOL FanHouse. Rosenthal suggests the Giants, Padres and Dodgers could be fits. The Giants and Padres have been linked to outfielders for weeks now and Dodgers GM Ned Colletti recently said he wants to add outfield depth.

Podsednik, 34, has a .309/.353/.399 line with 29 steals in 41 attempts. It’s a carbon copy of the season he put together last year, when he batted .304/.353/.412 with 30 steals in 43 attempts. Teams know what they’re getting in Podsednik: a speedy left fielder who can play center and get on base.

The Royals signed Podsednik to a team-friendly deal that guarantees the outfielder $1.65MM this season (about $580K remains). The team has an option for 2011 worth $2MM, but Podsednik will likely be able to void it. He had 421 plate appearances entering today’s action and needs just 525 to neutralize the option.

"This guy here is DEAD!"
"Cross him OFF then!"

by Casper01 on Jul 28, 2010 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Ironically, one of my biggest Moore complaints involves an aspect of developing the farm system. Aside from his first two months on the job he has done very little to add prospects from outside the organization. Not flipping Grudz three different times, not trading Mahay, not trading Soria (if the reports are true). Stealing prospects from other organizations is pretty important. Considering that the GM doesn’t typically directly handle the draft, it’s a more important GM job duty than drafting your own talent even.

Let's just trust the process.

by trusttheprocess on Jul 28, 2010 3:17 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I think that's a valid complaint

especially if you look at the Rays and Rangers as models for success for the Royals. Their farm systems have both been excellent, but big pieces on both those teams were acquired via trade; it’s hard to get all of your talent from one source alone.

by sumajestad on Jul 28, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

true

he has gotten extra draft picks for several players after free agency, though, right?

Maybe I’m thinking there are more than there were but Riske comes to mind, eh I don’t feel like looking up anymore.

by I need more Esteban on Jul 28, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't the primary job of the GM

to build a winning major league club, regardless of the technique?

The only measure of true success in the NFL is the Vince Lombardi trophy. Anything less is a rationalization.

by sm7600 on Jul 28, 2010 5:21 PM EDT reply actions  

DM is one of the worst...

despite his energy and passion for the royals he hasn’t recgonized that Kila is batting ONLY .377 since the all star break…but whos counting really right?
Jus trade guillen free up space so we can eventually make room for better players. or atleast take a page from or even bring back god ole’ John Schuerholtz….

by Chiefs190 on Jul 28, 2010 6:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes you can, Rany. Yes you can.

Yes. Definitely one of the worst.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Jul 28, 2010 7:37 PM EDT reply actions  

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