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Two Weeks: Enough to Change Minds about Yuni?

I honestly can't remember a two week period where so many people have voiced so many different opinions about Yuniesky Betancourt.  Traditional haters smart writers that so many of us love, including Rany and Posnanski have chimed in lately, offering reassessments or new thoughts relevant to Yuni.  A good friend of mine has recently called my renewed hatred for Yuni (during this hot stretch) unreasonable, and that I should give him a chance.  I, however, still do not find any of this new analysis persuasive, and I STILL do not like Yuni.  I'll show the most relevant stats below, as well as what some of the talking heads have said, followed by where I think we are and why I think all this new talk is dumb.

 Fan_a_betancourt1_sw_sq_300_medium

via isportsweb.com

Shocked that TAKING a pitch is possible, Yuni heads back to the dugout to research the phenonmenon.

Star-divide

2010

OPS: .290/.429= .719

OPS+: 94

WAR: 1.3

UZR: -7.1

Dewan: -12

1970s baseball card: .270/13/61 (!!!)

 Kcr_yuniesky_betancourt_medium

via 4.bp.blogspot.com

Career

OPS: .297/.396= .693

OPS+: 84

WAR (average):  roughly  +0.7, 3.4 cumulative (excluding short season in 2005)

UZR (average): -8.5 UZR/150

Dewan: subscriber content, F*** it

1970s baseball card (averages): .274/9/57

 

Rany

"The most surprising thing about his performance (the epic doubleheader), though, was this: in the second game, at nearly 1 in the morning, with Betancourt representing the Royals’ final hope in the ninth – I was able to root for him unabashedly, with no mixed feelings at all. I’ve put my reservations behind me, and learned to embrace Yuni, warts and all. He’s not my kind of player. But he’s still my player. And he’s a better player than I ever thought he’d be."

My reaction:

The point of Rany's post was not that we were wrong about Yuni, but that Dayton Moore may have been right, that Yuni was better than whatever alternatives our organization could muster through 2012.  Bianchi injury aside, this seems plausible, if it weren't for the existence of 29 other shortstops in the majors, 27(ish) of which have better statistical numbers defensively, and 29 of which get on base more.  Yes, Yuni is hot, but he is Yuni-hot.  He's like Drew Barrymore in the Charlie's Angels movies.  However, as Rany was careful to note, he now has less walks than homers, which needs watching, over the course of the next month, for an astonishing statistical anomoly for players with little power that somehow manage 500 PA.

 2009061700001909_medium

via images.dailyme.com

Here are two guys that have had less walks than homers.  Jacobs in 2005, Olivo in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009.  Yes, it is tough to do when you hit less than 20 homers.

Posnanski

"But he has taught himself some things too. He taught himself to turn on a mistake pitch, hit it off the wall our out of the park (his 13 homers are a career high). He taught himself to concentrate harder on a day-to-day basis — the brain fog moments seemed to be happening less often (though maybe not … this just might have been my new Yuni perspective). Instead of seeing him as a player with talent who was wildly underachieving, I revised my thinking and saw him instead as a player WITHOUT great talent who nevertheless was playing every day in the big leagues. The Royals, I remain convinced, are not going to win with Yuniesky Betancourt as their every day shortstop. But, at the moment, they’re not going to win with the young Honus Wagner as their every day shortstop either.

Point is: The guy, I think, is playing as well as he can play. If that still makes him a below average every day player, well, on this team that hardly makes him unique. After all, catcher Jason Kendall has a 71 OPS+ and still does not have a triple or home run this season. And he not only plays every day, but the Royals hit him in the No. 2 spot in the lineup (since moving to that No. 2 spot 61 games ago, he’s hitting .238/.297/.264 — yes, he’s slugging .264). Yuni has been surpassed as face of the franchise. And I have found myself kind of rooting for him."

 Yuniesky_betancourt_kan_medium

via cubanplay.tucubaweb.com

I'm just going to assume this was a first pitch fastball that a pitcher put in the strike-zone for some reason.

My reaction:

I do not want to confuse the issue with the Kendall issue.  RoyalsReview's inning counter on the side tab every day is funny enough and a reminder that we DO, in fact, have bigger fish to fry than Yuni.  Posnanski's point was that Yuni may just be in one of those small sample-size clutch periods of his career where he amasses a small fan-base.  Posnanski even credits Yuni's effort (grit, mental toughness, work ethic, whatever you want to call it), then even saying that may just be his new-found ability to root for Yuni.  This is fine and all, but why does that rooting fan-base include Joe Posnanski and Rany Jazalyeri?  Moreover, why does it include my previously reliable smart baseball friends?  And why do we want kids listening to Ryan and Frank, now Rany and Joe, about how valuable Yuniesky Betancourt is and how he is acceptable, if not praiseworthy?

 

The takeaway:

Of course, winning games is important, even in lost seasons.  Yuni has helped this year by being clutch in those "fan moments" that people will remember.  He has also been thoroughly and violently cursed by fans as often as any other player for stupid hacks, lack of range, lack of concentration, or obviously make-able plays that were botched.  What is more important?  We HAVE seen A LOT of Yuni for more than a full season to make up our minds, compared to what was out there (stats AND scouts) before the trade.  Is two weeks enough to make a difference in our opinions?  There IS a lesson to this Yuni madness.  I think we are losing sight of this as intelligent baseball fans.

 Advicedog_medium

via img14.imageshack.us

Isn't that dog CUTE?  Perhaps we should listen to it...

The vendor and the fans that curse Yuni see a shortstop who has no range.  Most scouts see the same thing.  The statistical gurus and available valuations see a shortstop with no range.  They all see that he is perhaps the worst free-swinger in the game.  He cannot be relied upon to take it the other way to advance a runner, to stay up the middle.  He flatly refuses to walk.  These are known things by now.  Those same scouts, fans, and vendors see the 2010 full of grand slams, the "clutch" hitting.  They revel in it.  Hell, I revel in it.  I like winning as much as the next fan, but why change minds when the only thing the eye cannot see (sample size, perspective, context) still shows the player to be bad, just a lesser shade of bad than before?   Aren't we just talking about sample size and counting stats all over again?

 4363760292_6212703b3e_o_medium

via farm5.static.flickr.com

Look closely, next to the cartoonish face, there are three (!!!) numbers.

To me it comes down to how those three 1970s baseball card statistics are still with us all, as baseball fans.  Whatever the age you readers are at RR, we remember as kids, younger adults, etc. that batting average, homers, and RBIs were the important things.  The old crown scoreboard featured these prominently next to the now-hilarious two-tone picture of the player.  Before Moneyball, before the fat guys in the outfield, before advanced defensive metrics.  We remember those things.  But it is these memories and those statistics that make Yuniesky Betancourt seem valuable.  A shortstop that hits .270 and 15 homers is valuable, he must be!!!  I remember, perhaps one of my earliest Royals game memories, Todd Benzinger hitting a Grand Slam at then Royals Stadium (in 1991 apparently, when I was 5, after looking that up).  Maybe he was on a hot streak at the time, I really don't know.  But I LOVED it.  There is a lot to be said for enjoying the fan moments, but as intelligent fans, we owe it to ourselves to know better.  Leave the fan moments to the kids, those who need them, who do not pay attention to every game.  Do not let those feelings invade the realm of player evaluation.

 Royals_20fans_medium

via openingday.mlblogs.com

It's a long season, and it's hard to remember that in the moment, in the week, in two weeks.  In perspective, careers are longer, and players DO have identities.

We've been subjected to hot streaks lately by many players, most notably Jose Guillen in June 2008.  People were briefly excited (including Posnanski who said something to the effect that it was the most remarkable hot streak he had ever seen, noting the lack of walks) because he was performing, though still not walking.  He regressed to what Jose Guillen was and is.  He is who we thought he was.  The same can be said for Yuniesky Betancourt.  He has been hot since he had a kid, but it didn't teach him (Yuni, not the young Betancourt child) to walk.  He will regress back to Yuni.

 Dennis_green_medium

via 3.bp.blogspot.com

Let's not let Yuni off the hook.  He is what we thought he was, despite two weeks of acceptable/clutch play.

It IS okay to root for Yuni because he is a Royal, but it is NOT OK to forget why we hated him, why the numbers still hate him.  We can root for him and hope he really has figured out some way to contribute postiively to the team.  1.3 WAR isn't bad in 2010, but there is still a lot of ugly about Yuni's game.  So please do not tell me to stop being negative about Yuni, because we still have to watch him not walk and not cover ground defensively in 2011.

Alternative suggestion:

In the mean-time, Royals players should stagger their baby-making activities over the next six months so at least two players are hot for each two-week stretch in 2011.  Absences/births should be scheduled for off-days to maximize team contribution.  If that isn't sure-fire statistical analysis, then I don't know what is. 

Comment 66 comments  |  11 recs  | 

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I would absolutely love Yuni's numbers if he were a good defender.

Let me check here… Oh right. He is a terrible defender.

Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!

by mazoboom on Aug 25, 2010 1:53 AM EDT reply actions  

this is my problem with Yuni

I remember what Rey Sanchez did at SS. He was always making plays behind the bag at 2nd or even to the right of the bag. Yuni can’t get to a ball that’s 10 feet to the SS side of 2nd base. Then he makes one play in the hole and my wife looks at me and says I should give him a break.

This is Yuni’s carreer year offensively. He’s barely average and is a terrible defender. We deserve better.

by sfeldkamp on Aug 27, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

He Had Some

Similar offensive numbers his first couple of years in SEA. Niehaus talked like he was an AS caliber SS, but their announcers are hopeless homers.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Aug 27, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

He might be good enough to manage 1.0 WAR this year

…which would mean he was merely crappy this year and not one of the worst players in baseball. However his true talent level is much closer to one of the worst players in baseball and that is what we should expect from him going forward.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Aug 25, 2010 7:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Yes, that's how I look at it

Yuni’s recent offensive contributions have put him in the discussion for Not The Worst Major League Baseball Player of 2010. With 30-odd games to go, he’s probably going to make it. Feel-good story of the summer.

by 2X2L on Aug 25, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I think most people (including Rany and Poz) are looking at the wrong time period

In determining how good Yuni is, look at the last few years, not just the last two months or even the 4 3/4 months of this season. And over that period, he’s been one of the very worst players in baseball. That is what the Royals traded prospects for. That is what we should expect from him going forward. Anything else is wishcasting, spin and poor analysis.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Aug 25, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not only traded prospects, total money paid to Yuni will be in the neighborhood of $8 million,

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Aug 25, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

If by much

you mean $2 million of the $9 million he’s due for 2010, 2011, and his 2012 buyout, together with the approximately $1 million he was due for 2009 after the trade. Total: approximately $3 million of the approximately $10 million he was due after the trade came from Seattle.

by 2X2L on Aug 26, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for throwing those up so I didn't have to go back to Cots.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Aug 27, 2010 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Profound

and Rec’d

Dr. Ausgiano schools me in the classroom and on the field of battle

by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Aug 25, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh look..

Another “I hate Yuni” post, cause these aren’t getting over-done at all.

If you spent all this time creating a post on how much you hate Yuni…maybe you can spend the same amount of time on a post pointing out the myriad of OTHER problems more pressing with the Royals.

Nothing like taking a big giant shit on one of the better moments of this Royals year…that being the crappy shortstop nobody wants, a new dad, and someone with major red flags on him, actually putting up a productive year.

Simple fact for 2010, and i DARE you to try to challenge this…

Clutch hitting:

Yuniesky Betancourt > Billy Butler

discuss, if you haven’t already started a “I hate Billy Butler”

Not trying to be a dick to YOU personally, just get tired of seeing “wah-wah Yuni” posts left and right, every board when he’s the ONLY goddamn player up there batting who can be a clutch hitter.

Kendall as our everyday, and i mean EVERY DAY catcher. higher priority to me than replacing Yuni.

Getting quality starters in our rotation instead of filler behind Zack Greinke. higher priority to me than replacing Yuni.

Fixing Mike Aviles or cutting bait. higher priority to me than replacing Yuni.

Figuring out if Alex Gordon is a major league player or not. higher priority than replacing Yuni.

Let the guy ride what will likely be the best year of the guys career without crushing his doings with over-statistical analysis. Casual fans have jack and shit to root for about this team…and jack left town.

Thanks.

Casual fan.

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 25, 2010 2:33 PM EDT reply actions  

agreed with several of your points

but my point WAS to rain on the parade for Yuni. Kendall is a bigger problem, so is the rotation. But let’s not pretend the Yuni-problem doesn’t exist or that it went away, or even celebrate his CLUTCH hits more than the temporary moment they occur. They do not define him. His every day defines him, like it does every player. If we had the bases loaded and 2 outs, yes I want Butler over Yuni, EVERY TIME. Too many people make too much out of short periods. Enjoy the clutch, but do not let it define a player, let alone take him from being a crappy player to a valuable one (when the numbers that made him crappy still show him to be crappy)

Todd Haley's kids know more swear words than I do.

by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Aug 25, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Point being...

What would you rather have? TPJ?

What options did we have at the time? We had no SS’s on our farm, close to ML ready..

At the time, it was a terrible trade because Cortes was a highly regarded prospect. But he was already repeating his assignment on the farm, and now he is in Seattle’s system blowing goats with his arm. If Cortes was lights out, I understand…but he’s not.

Look at the past…Dayton was rumored to have tried trading Billy Butler for Betancourt and was rebuffed. I do understand its retarded for Dayton to get perma-wood over a particular player and focus 100% on him…but once they put on the laundry, I root for the player, not his stats. I cheer them on to improve, not go ballistic for them to fail and point out their short-comings.

At the time of Betancourts signing in Seattle, he was regarded as a very highly touted prospect and he did ok. Then got lazy, and he under-performed. In many reports, it seemed to be implied that Betancourt was used to being dictated to by coaches, told what to do, not asked…He came to KC and got that again from our coaching staff. Last year, injured and maybe that affected him. This year, some of the “prospect vibe” seemed to come out…I will take it as a stop-gap to Colon…

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 25, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

UNDERPERFORMANCE!

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Aug 25, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you really just post something about clutch hitting?

Did you know that Yuni has also been the Royals best hitter on even-numbered Tuesday day games? That’s clearly a skill. I dare you to challenge it.

Oh, and the above post was extremely appropriate and timely as recently some fans and some prominent Royals writers (Poz and Rany) appear to be suggesting that Yuni really isn’t that bad. The problem is that he really is that bad. He’s horrendous. Writing about him is appropriate. It does not imply that he’s the only problem with this team. He’s one of many. The biggest is Dayton Moore.

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Aug 25, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Damn..

Yuni sucks ;)

Thanks for taking the challenge. I was too lazy to look anything up.

Guess stats don’t cover the excitement of watching Yuni crush a grand slam vs. watching Billy ground into a double play to kill a rally.

But numbers look very nice on paper. Luckily baseball is played on the field.

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 25, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, I'm with Kenny

Looking stuff up IS really hard. And facts should never get in the way of a good argument.

"Never get less than 12 hours sleep. Never play cards with a guy who's got the same first name as as city. And never go near a lady who's got a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick with that, and everything else is cream cheese." -Coach Bobby Finstock

by Sweep_the_Leg on Aug 25, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

You got me

you’re right..you’re right..just smoked.

Or wait..

Let’s think about this when looking at the numbers.

How many times did Billy come up, runners on 2nd and 3rd…and drive in 2 runs in a game we are getting blown out, say 9-1 or 10-2 and how many times did he ground into a DP when a tie or lead was on the line in his AB?

I mean sure numbers that crush Yuni are meaningless in situations where the game in on the line, which is by and large what the definition of “clutch” hitting is…

I mean, If Yuni has say 75 AB’s in the course of a season where the Royals are down by 1 run or tied, and Butler has the same amount…even though the over-all numbers suggest Billy would be the one coming through all the time, isn’t it odd it always seems to be Yuni?

There are 2 types of fans now.

Those who relish in watching the game, for the America’s past-time of it. And those of you who break down every AB, every defensive play and the statistical format of a player before he even put our laundry on to predict how he will do.

We don’t shit in your corn flakes, stop shitting in ours.

The throngs of fans raising their hands and cheering because Yuni blast the grand slam to tie the game had a moment, a brief moment to feel happy about being a Royals fan before you statheads jumped up, waved middle fingers and said “fuck you, he still sucks”.

Talk about party poopers.

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 26, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fuck you. He still sucks.

He can’t do jack-shit except hit for decent power for a shortstop. Two hot weeks do not a career make. He has a long, proven track record of suckery.

By the way, it’s “pastime.” Has nothing to do with the passing of time from the past to present to future. The word means a way of passing, i.e. spending, your free time.

If you’re too mathematically-challenged to comprehend the most basic statistics, at least use the language correctly.

"The bowler's Holding, the batsman's Willey" - Unfortunate cricket commentator

by Juancho on Aug 26, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

isn’t it odd it always seems to be Yuni?

The bolded word is your problem. That’s where the numbers come in.

"Never get less than 12 hours sleep. Never play cards with a guy who's got the same first name as as city. And never go near a lady who's got a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick with that, and everything else is cream cheese." -Coach Bobby Finstock

by Sweep_the_Leg on Aug 26, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

My problem..

Is that the ones who follow stats so religiously, are the ones who look down on casual fans who aren’t as “smart” as someone who knows what UZR, WAR, FIP, OPS+, WHIP, ERA+ etc are…

for crying out loud. can’t baseball fans be baseball fans, where one fan says “man, Yuni played GREAT this series”, and enjoy it…as FANS…without a bunch of stat guys popping out notebooks saying, “but he sucks..and here is the calculated formulas to prove it!”

THIS is why casual fans look down on statheads. and I explained why statheads look down on casual fans. If there was a middle ground between the two, then both kinds of fans should meet in it, but there’s not…so every disagreement turns hostile.

I respect your opinions…I just don’t agree with them. To me, Yuni is the more exciting baseball player …FOR NOW…we all know Billy Butler is better. It’s like law that he is…but for crying out loud, let the casual fans drinking a Pabst Blue Ribbon in the stands, and cheering his ass off while his wife sits next to him embarrassed, enjoy a moment where some Cuban named Yuniarfy Bettermint just hit a grand slam to tie it up, have his moment. No need to shit on it.

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 26, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, when Casual Fan McPBR complains about the team never winning, what do you say?

“Dunno, man, it can’t be players like Yuni and Bloomie — Bloomie tries really, really hard, and Yuni had those grand slams”

Unless I'm wrong...

by Top Ramen on Aug 27, 2010 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

the problem is

that you want to use that anectdotal description of what you saw happen and use that as a projection for what will happen. I don’t think anyone here will disagree with you if you say that Yuni had a great 2 weeks. But when you say something like this:

Kendall as our everyday, and i mean EVERY DAY catcher. higher priority to me than replacing Yuni.
Getting quality starters in our rotation instead of filler behind Zack Greinke. higher priority to me than replacing Yuni.
Fixing Mike Aviles or cutting bait. higher priority to me than replacing Yuni.

You are making a statement about the future and that statement isn’t supported by any kind of facts about reality, but only about your perception based on a few plays that did happen. Predicting the future with 100% accuracy is impossible, but statistics give a much better sampling of the past because they summarize every play and not just a few that we witnessed and remember.

I do wish that clutch existed as a skill for players. It’s a good sports story that seems to mean something about life. In truth skilled players hit better than unskilled players in clutch situations because they are better hitters not because they are better men.

The neat thing is that unskilled players can occasionally hit above their ability in clutch situations too, and we should celebrate that when it happens. But we shouldn’t expect them to be able to continually do that. In fact if they could then that’s probably a player who isn’t really giving their full effort all the time.

by sfeldkamp on Aug 27, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Before the last two weeks, has Yuni ever been considered clutch?

I actually think pitchers will see he has some power and just keep the ball out of the zone. It is not like he is going to take a walk with people on. 4 all year.

- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …

by Jeff Zimmerman on Aug 27, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Earlier this season..

Yuni has come through with some clutch at bats.

I’m not saying he would lead the league in GWRBI (i miss that stat sooo much)..just saying if you go back through games earlier this season, there’s been home runs, doubles or key hits that helped change the game.

But then again..when Greinke was having his terrible outings, a lot of people said to be patient, wait for it…we did, and he blew us away last year.

Yuni is no Greinke. But until his contract expires, he is a KC Royal…so I ask again..

When we trotted TPJ out for almost a half year, batting .100 (not a typo)…Betancourt, even in his suckness, was a much better option (if there was any other option out there, love to hear it…trade, FA, promotion?)

This year, we DID have options and Dayton stuck with him over those options…and Yuni has rewarded the decision with a career year offensively…a career year for him, not for stathead standards…but when i look at our Neifi Perez’s. Our TPJ’s. Our Angel Berroa’s, watching Yuni out there doesn’t sting as much.

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 27, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

No..you were saying he was more "clutch" than a specific player..Billy Butler. Now that you have been proven wrong in a very decisive way...

..now you trying to change to “oh, I just said he got some key hits here and there….lol!”

Also, trying to compare Betancourt to TPJ is entirely irrelevant.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Aug 27, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

irrelevant?

they are polar opposites.

TPJ is to Yuni with the glove..

what Yuni is to TPJ with the bat.

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 27, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's irrelevant because saying that Betancourt is somehow okay b/c he's better than TPJ is just not good enough.

Betancourt is very bad at baseball. It’s a fact and it is why we hate him. Bringing up TPJ or how you “feel” when you want to get a hot dog has nothing to do with it. Baseball is played on a field and when Betancourt takes the field, he sucks.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Aug 27, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

By Replacing TPJ

With Yu-Bet we turned the second worst SS in MLB into the worst. That’s an accomplishment.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Aug 27, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd for missing GWRBI

Phil, I figured you’d be all over this!

(winky-face)

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs and Beyond the Box Score.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Aug 27, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thought Better Of

Getting into that one.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Aug 27, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good lord

Unless I'm wrong...
My Twitter feed

by Top Ramen on Aug 25, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's a casual fan response

Dude, you’re crazy if you think Yuniesky is a better clutch hitter than Butler just because he’s had a few big homers in clutch situations over the last month. I talk to a lot of casual fans and still look at the game with that perspective, despite my fondness of the stat side. I don’t think the average Royals fan shares your Yuni-vision.

by Tito42 on Aug 27, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow

Is your hatred for Yuni so profound you have to personally attack and insult someone whose opinion is different than yours?

Do you beat puppies if they shit on the carpet? Go after kids with a belt and attack them with it if they disobey you.

Seems my little “disagreement” over a major league player has not only brought out some pent up rage from you, seems to have you attacking not only me, but a collection of posters from another forum.

Let me give you a reality check, cupcake. Just as many stat nerds there as there are here, so no reason to post your shit like this in regards to them. I do not speak for them.

Have a nice day. Stay away from the dog pound.

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 26, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

was this really necessary?

i don’t post there anymore due to some said posters, but this is quite unnecessary.

R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9

by doublestix on Aug 27, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Necessary? No. Accurate...yes.

If you look at the proven fact that A > B and then start to argue that B > A and say anyone that says otherwise is a nerd and that “baseball is played on the field,” then you’re gonna get called dumb. Simple as that. He was given a mountain of evidence as to why he was wrong, evidence that was both simple to understand and 100% convincing. There is no possible way KP is right…yet he is still insisting he is right and insulting all those who pay attention to stats. I’m not calling him anything other than what he has shown to be..which is extremely ignorant about baseball.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Aug 27, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am not saying I am right.

In fact, I am getting a lesson in getting my ass handed to me with concrete evidence and can see the points being made.

I just don’t take kindly to being called a “dipshit” just because there is a variance in opinion.

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 27, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

don't worry

i had a sneaking suspicion of your identity :)

that’s why I didn’t really “go after you”…lol

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 27, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

You came onto a site that is quite clearly for the "stat crowd" and started spewing this garbage.

“But numbers look very nice on paper. Luckily baseball is played on the field.”

You’re just opening yourself up to get ripped. Best just to stop now…

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Aug 26, 2010 6:47 PM EDT reply actions  

My bad. Wow...

My completely erroneous thought was I came to a site for ROYALS FANS..you know, people who wear Royals paraphenelia, cheer for the team hailing from Kansas City and support the team that takes the field every night.

Not to some hangout where a bunch of guys with calculators and hardons for carrying the 2 and coming up with catchy little neat sounding stats congregate.

Can anyone tell me when the math club will be leaving the room? Myself…a Royals fan…would LOVE to talk about the fun and rollercoaster ride that is our KC Royals season.

But if it makes anyone feel better. No, I hate math. Always hated math. I hate addition, substraction, formulas, pi, calculus, integers and so on and so forth. I hated it in school and I hate it online, when trying to talk baseball.

Now, statheads and casual fans, typically don’t get along. Statheads tend to get huffy every so often, when their math and solutions come into question.

While your numbers maybe awesome, your calculations divine and you religion to sabremetrics is unequal…i will tell you this.

I’d rather be in line at the concession stand during a Billy Butler at bat…oh sorry, I mean …ground into a double play…than when the lineup comes up with Yuni due up. But that’s just me…a paying customer to a ballgame…who wants to see a homerun, or have a reason to cheer. you know, a casual fan who loves my team. Cause I guarantee this…the 25,000 or so fans cheering on Yuni’s grannie? Lot more of me in the crowd then there were of you.

Do the math.

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 26, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

So...despite literally EVERY SINGLE NUMBER being against you...despite being proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt in LITERALLY EVERYTHING YOU SAID...

you’re still sticking with your guns because you “feel it.” LOL

Also..your attempt to equate people cheering for Yuni directly after a grand slam to them liking Yuni more than Butler is probably the dumbest thing I’ve ever read online, outside of your other posts in this thread of course.

Seriously….your posts here have just been terrible. I mean…are you joking? (

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Aug 26, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here is an honest question and I hope to get an answer on it-

If you’re upset at how many people are convinced Yuni sucks and want to say it out loud, what DO you want to talk about when discussing the Royals? How he has hit a few random homeruns but is never on base the rest of the season or how amazing Jason Kendall is because he wants to catch every day regardless of whether he’s helping the team or not?

I just really don’t know what else Royals fan want to talk about. During game threads, everybody goes apeshit when something good happens. We all cheer there, of course a lot of it is backed up by “lets hope this doesn’t convince Yost that he sees the future” jokes but we’re still cheering.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Aug 27, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly..

I will discuss anything baseball related, especially Royals related.

I disagree with Kendall playing so much, and him getting a 2nd year. In fact, I nicknamed him “The Mentorist” after that stupidass comment Trey Hillman made about him being a “perfect mentor for our young catchers”.

I have quite a desire to see David Glass to sell the team. Mark Cuban preferably, but anyone at this point. Glass may be a better owner, but his legacy on this team is poisonous. He could sign Albert Pujols and he’d still be “the guy who signed Albert Pujols AFTER he gutted and destroyed this team”.

I like talked about our farm system, especially our “diamonds” like Leonel Santiago, Murray Watts, and Willian Avinazar…guys under the radar in our lower system who are just destroying their opponents.

I love to talk trades. Good lord, I love them too much. I made a trade deadline bet that Ankiel and Farnsworth were going to Boston with us getting Mke Lowell (salaries kind of matched up), we needed a 3rd baseman to bridge the gap between Callaspo and Moose…and we had scouts at Lowell’s rehab games…so I just knew it would happen. Someone bet me tix to Royals vs. Angels out here in LA for all 3 games….against my hair. I shaved my head when Ankiel and Farnsworth went to Atlanta. But it worked out good. The shaved head has led to multiple new chicks phone numbers (they like the douchebag look)…and we got Tim Collins, who has become my new favorite minor league player.

I was on the Wily Mo Pena bandwagon for years. Still kinda am….Can we get him?? So a lot of my Royals talk was about him.

I discuss anything Royals related..so don’t think I come here to just stir shit, it’s not why I hit this thread…I just feel Yuni SHOULD be cut some slack for his offense far exceeding what was EXPECTED of him..

no agreeance?

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Aug 27, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Honestly, no. Yuni shouldn't be cut any slack because he's still one of the worst players on the team.

His OBP is atrocious. The few homeruns he has hit haven’t been enough to cover that gap and fans are constantly told how good he is when he clearly isn’t.

As for the rest of the stuff, we all love to talk about everything. We just like to use stats to confirm or redirect our beliefs. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Aug 27, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate clutch hitters and the idea

So the player decides to give it his all when the game is on the line and pull on some untapped power.

Why the hell don’t they do it all the time. Because they are lazy. I don’t want a player that only tries when the game is on the line, I would prefer for them to try every at bat.

How does he have only 12 walks. KenDoll has about 3 times as many.

Right now, David DeJesus has contributed 10 more runs to the team than Yuni.

Yuni has had a nice stretch, but I will gladly bet $100 that Yuni’s OPS, OPS+ or wOBA will be worse at the end of the year compared to now.

- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …

by Jeff Zimmerman on Aug 27, 2010 1:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Don't know much about Yuni

but that’s a effin nice photo of the great Steve Hovley in 1973. Where’d you find it? Are there more?

by trauty on Aug 27, 2010 12:54 PM EDT reply actions  

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