BA: How do the Royals stack up to past #1 farm systems?
*BA provides an optimistic view on how our #1 farm system stacks up to past #1 farm systems this decade.*
I know that you haven't analyzed all 30 teams yet, but it's clear to everyone who reads Baseball America that the Royals have the best farm system in baseball. Assuming that they don't trade any of their prospects before BA does its organization rankings, how would Kansas City stack up against the other No. 1 systems from the last 10 years.
Mark Peffer
New York
The Royals are enduring their 15th losing season in the last 16 years, but they finally have some realistic hope for the future. Kansas City has three of the game's best hitting prospects in third baseman Mike Moustakas, first baseman Eric Hosmer and Wil Myers, and the top collection of lefthanded pitching prospects with John Lamb, Mike Montgomery, Chris Dwyer and Danny Duffy. Beyond those guys, the Royals also have a number of other intriguing farmhands, including righthander Aaron Crow and third baseman Cheslor Cuthbert.
Right now, Kansas City is the favorite to occupy the top spot when we unveil our next talent rankings in the 2011 Prospect Handbook. Let's take a quick look at the last 10 No. 1 organizations, all of whom reached the major league postseason within four years of that ranking, and their Top 100 Prospects:
2001 White Sox: Jon Rauch (No. 4), Joe Borchard (23), Joe Crede (36), Matt Ginter (44), Dan Wright (61).
2002 Cubs: Mark Prior (2), Juan Cruz (6), Hee Seop Choi (40), David Kelton (45), Bobby Hill (48), Nic Jackson (68), Carlos Zambrano (80).
2003 Indians: Brandon Phillips (7), Victor Martinez (16), Cliff Lee (30), Travis Hafner (46), Jeremy Guthrie (70).
2004 Brewers: Rickie Weeks (5), Prince Fielder (10), J.J. Hardy (19), Brad Nelson (48), Manny Parra (69), Mike Jones (84).
2005 Angels: Casey Kotchman (6), Dallas McPherson (12), Erick Aybar (39), Jeff Mathis (67), Kendry Morales (76), Brandon Wood (83).
2006 Diamondbacks: Justin Upton (2), Stephen Drew (5), Conor Jackson (17), Carlos Quentin (20), Chris Young (23), Carlos Gonzalez (32), Dustin Nippert (67).
2007 Rays: Evan Longoria (7), Reid Brignac (17), Jeff Niemann (35), Jacob McGee (37), Elijah Dukes (79), Wade Davis (97).
2008 Rays: Evan Longoria (2), David Price (10), Jacob McGee (15), Wade Davis (17), Reid Brignac (39), Desmond Jennings (59), Jeff Niemann (99).
2009 Rangers: Neftali Feliz (10), Justin Smoak (23), Derek Holland (31), Elvis Andrus (37), Taylor Teagarden (73), Max Ramirez (84), Martin Perez (86).
2010 Rays: Desmond Jennings (6), Jeremy Hellickson (18), Wade Davis (34), Matt Moore (35), Reid Brignac (54), Tim Beckham (67), Alex Colome (68).
The Royals stack up very nicely against their predecessors. Moustakas, Hosmer, Myers, Lamb and Montgomery all will appear in the upper half of our 2011 Top 100 list, and the only top-ranked organization with more firepower was the 2006 Diamondbacks, who claimed six of the top 32 spots.
While the Twins are clearly the class of the American League Central, they're not a juggernaut. The Indians are rebuilding, and the Tigers and White Sox need to do the same. With the talent they have on the way, the Royals could be the second-best team in the division by 2012 and legitimate contenders the following season.
over 1 year ago
deezle
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My favorite part
Let’s take a quick look at the last 10 No. 1 organizations, all of whom reached the major league postseason within four years of that ranking, and their Top 100 Prospects:
by deezle on Sep 28, 2010 11:19 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The least favorite part is how little those prospects actually contributed to those playoff teams
I am not sure the correlation here means causation.
2001 White Sox: Crede was the regular 3B on the World Series team, but that was about it.
2002 Cubs: Prior and Zambrano were rotation stalwarts of the 2003 playoff team, but the rest contributed little.
2003 Indians: Martinez and Hafner were big contributors to the 2007 playoff team, but that was Lee’s bad year.
2004 Brewers: This is the best group with only Nelson and Jones not contributing.
2005 Angels: The 2005 Angels made the playoffs, but only MacPherson actually played for them (61 games).
2006 D’Backs: Jackson and Young were solid contributors to the 2007 playoff team. Drew was the starting SS but had a terrible year. Quentin and Nippert played but did not really help.
2007 Rays: Longoria is the only one who helped the 2008 playoff team.
2008 Rays: Still only Longoria. Price certainly helped in the playoffs, but only pitched 14 innings in the regular season.
2009 Rangers: Feliz and Andrus are solid contributors to the 2010 playoff team, but neither will top 2.0 WAR. Holland pitched well in limited innings. Smoak did little with the Rangers but brought back Cliff Lee.
2010 Rays: None of these guys have had much of an impact on the 2010 team. Davis ate a lot of innings but was not particularly good. Hellickson has been very good but in only 33 IP. Brignac has been solid in a part-time role.
While these prospects helped their teams to varying degrees, the lesson here is that these teams made the playoffs because the rest of their rosters were good, but not just because of these prospects.
by Gopherballs on Sep 28, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Which, once again
Illustrates that you need to be able to bring in talent to supplement your own farm system. Which Dayton has shown a complete and total lack of ability for.
by kcbottom9th on Sep 28, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
This pessimism has gotten out of hand
The Twins have only eleven players (seven hitters, four pitchers) on their team generating more than 2 WAR this year. They’re in the race for the best record in baseball.
GMDM has made some disastrous moves, but he did bring in Betemit and Soria, who are 2.0 WAR players in limited time this year, and any system can churn out enough Maiers, Millers, Dysons, and Aviles(es) to supply below-average above-replacement players to fill out the rest of the team. If the minor leagues pan out the way that past #1 ranked systems have, the Royals will be in contention.
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
The Twins are a good representation that it takes a lot more than just a handful of top prospects
Liriano, Pavano, Thome, Hudson, and Hardy all came from outside the system and account for 18.3 WAR. These are the type of players that Moore has never been able to acquire. Substitute those guys with Maiers, Millers, et al. and the Twins are struggling to win 80 games.
by Gopherballs on Sep 28, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Twins versus Royals
The differences between the Twins and Royals should not be exaggerated. The Twins did spend a lot of money in the offseason in the free agent market (signing Pavano, Hudson and Thome), but I think that owed a lot to them wanting to make a splash for the first season in their new ballpark. GMDM had similar success with Meche, but not with Guillen. He could certainly learn from the Twins example of shorter-term contracts.
Liriano came in exchange for AJ Pierzynski, whom the Twins developed and kept through his arbitration years. Hardy came in exchange for Twins prospect Carlos Gomez. Sometimes these trades work out, (e.g. Carlos Silva at the cost of Eric Milton) and sometimes they don’t. I’m sure the Twins would rather undo the Matt Garza-Delmon Young trade if they had the choice, and the Johan Santana (for Gomez, Phillip Humber, and Kevin Mulvey) and Kyle Lohse (for Zach Ward) trades don’t look great in retrospect.
The Twins like to wheel and deal, but I don’t think that’s show’s it’s the only way. Obviously, AL Central teams are going to be unable to afford some top players after their arbitration eligibility expires, and it will be important for the Royals to turn Greinke, DeJesus and others into prospects to restock the minors. But I don’t think the Twins experience shows much about what’s necessary to developing a winning ball club.
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
by KSinDC on Sep 28, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Some good points
but there is a huge difference between handing Meche a 5-year, $55M deal which no other club considered, that looked good for two years and is now an albatross, and picking up Hudson and Thome for quarters on the dollars
The Twins did make some good trades with Pierzynski, obviously, and the Hardy trade, but isn’t that part of Gopherballs point? Smart trades like that have hardly defined Moore’s tenure.
The Twins way isnt’ the only way, but it is the example you brought up, and I think we’re still waiting for Moore to show that he’s capable of making moves that are this good.
by Matt Klaassen on Sep 28, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
The Twins make lots of good trades because the Twins make lots of trades
Nothing troubles me about GMDM than his penchant for overpaying in years for free agent contracts. It not only contributes to a general overvaluing of players, but it hamstrings the team. All of the Twins big free agent signings were one-year deals, and in that respect, we should follow their model.
But I don’t get the love for the Twins trading strategy. They make lots of trades, and lots of those are winners, but lots of them are losers (the Santana trade looks like a disaster). An idiot with a Scottrade account can make lots of winning trades on the way to getting wiped out, and the Twins good trades aren’t the whole story. The core of their lineup (Mauer, Morneau and Cuddyer) and so are many of the major contributors (Baker, Blackburn and Duesning in the rotation, Crain in the pen, and Kubel and Valencia in the field). Liriano might as well be homegrown — he spent 3 years in the Twins minor league system before he got called up.
Go to B-R and sort the value statistics by how the players were acquired. The players who came in by trade are below average or worse (except for Liriano, who was traded in the early minors). Even Hardy, who the Twins raided their farm system to get, hasn’t contributed at near the level he did in Milwaukee.
I’m not impressed with the Twins’ trades, and I wait to see whether the free agent spending persists beyond the first year in the new park.
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
The point isn't that the Twins are awesome at what they do
you’ll hardly find me to be a big fan of how the Twins operate, the point was whether or not they do things to contend in a way that should lead us to believe Moore can have similar success. I don’t think he has…
To go back to your original point that got us on this Twins discussion: 2 WAR is about league average: having “only” 11 players over two WAR is exactly why the Twins are winning the division: The Royals have 6 (and a lot of those are right at 2), the Indians have 4, the White Sox have 8.
The Twins as a whole currently have the second most position player WAR in baseball, and the sixth-most pitching WAR.
by Matt Klaassen on Sep 28, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
So what are the chances that a top AA/AAA prospect contributes 2.0 WAR in their prime?
Between the 8 top pitching candidates and the 3 top hitting candidates, is it reasonable to expect 64% (7/11) to contribute at league average or above?
The question I was addressing was how much talent would need to be brought in to supplement the prospects. I know that expectations for multiple perennial All-Stars are unrealistic, but I thought it was realistic to expect a majority become league average or above. If that’s the case and we hold on to a couple of the current above average players (say, Soria and Davies), we’re right in Twins territory in terms of contributors. The burden on Dayton would be only to find 1.0 WAR guys to fill out the lineup.
Are my expectations for a majority of top AA/AAA prospects to become 2.0-3.5 WAR contributors (with an all-star or two) unrealistic? If not, where else am I going wrong? I don’t like GMDM, and I don’t feel very comfortable defending him, but I’m trying to follow the probabilities and put personalities aside. If (whether because they’re his players or because he’s learned or because the gods favor us) GMDM let’s these players come up and they pan out at historical rates, what do we actually need in terms of complementary players?
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
Between the 8 top pitching candidates and the 3 top hitting candidates, is it reasonable to expect 64% (7/11) to contribute at league average or above?
I’m in the middle of doing some research on this and I’m nowhere near done, but the short answer is no, not even close (based on the historical MLB performance of top prospects). If you’re talking about the Royals top 8 pitching prospects and top 3 position player prospects, then I think expecting even half of them to become at least MLB average is optimistic. It could certainly happen, but you shouldn’t expect it.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Sep 28, 2010 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Very helpful
Thank you. I’m looking forward to your research.
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
Long story short, even top 50 MLB prospects (of which the Royals have only 4-5, I think) fail in the majors more often than they succeed, and pitchers at a higher rate than position players.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Sep 28, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't the minor league level matter?
I thought success rates jumped dramatically from High-A to AA. Since the Royals’ system is unusually top heavy, I figured that would increase our success rates.
Going back through these BA rankings, I’m really perplexed at how many players took several years to make the majors. The hit-to-miss ratio can’t be very good for BA on those players. I’d love to see a AA/AAA-only Top 100 list.
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
I’m just talking about, and my research deals with looking at the eventual major league success of prospects by overall MLB prospect ranking (BA). For what it’s worth, the vast majority of the top 50 are at the AA or AAA level.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Sep 28, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
No matter what your results say
I will blindly dismiss them in favor of my infallible optimism that all of the Royals propects will be awesome ;)
If I do happen to look at your results, are you planning on taking into account players the reach top 10, top 20, top 30, etc. to see if the higher they are rated the more likely they are to succeed?
Sounds like a lot of work. I’ll look forward to it this offseason.
I’m still in the interminable data collection phase, but when I crunch the numbers, I intend to break it down a lot of ways, including by various ranking groupings.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Sep 28, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Here is some previous work. Look for the links to Victor Wang's work
- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …
by Jeff Zimmerman on Sep 28, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
here is the link
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/7/20/950254/which-is-better-compensation
- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …
by Jeff Zimmerman on Sep 28, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
This sounds an awful lot like the 2008 Royals
Three above average position players – Aviles (4.0 WAR), DDJ (2.6), and Gordon (2.3) – and two well above average starters and a lights out closer – Meche (5.0), Greinke (4.9), and Soria (1.6).
In 2008, the Royals won 75 games (73 pythag wins) and were nowhere close to competing for the playoffs.
Hmm.
I wonder which is more damaging to the overall MLB salary structure, from the ownership perspective:
Dayton Moore making Bud Selig angry by paying over-slot bonuses to draftees
or
Dayton Moore not making Bud Selig angry by giving Jose Guillen $36M.
I am now channeling Will McDonald's optimism.
Of course each situation is different
but I think what is telling is how important it is to find a cornerstone player, such as Fielder, Longoria, or VMart, and then complement them with competent pieces. We’ll be in great shape if 2 of Moose, Hos, and Myers can become All-Star caliber position players, and a couple of the pitchers pan out.
All-Star Moose, All-Star Hos, two good starters
and a team of Gregor Blancos, Chris Getzes, and Jason Kendalls is going to have trouble winning 82 games. The current MLB roster will provide little help — Greinke is under contract for only two more years, Butler is down to three years of club control, and DDJ has one year left. The next Royals playoff team is going to need more than just complementary players from outside the system.
competent pieces
Kendall is not a competent piece. Getz has some upside but hasn’t shown much so far. I would argue Blanco could be a contributor on a playoff team with his OBP and plus defense in a premium position.
Greinke, Butler, and/or DDJ can be resigned, traded for additional pieces, or allowed to walk for draft picks, which can be used to restock the farm system.
Again, we will be in great shape if two of Moose, Hos, and Myers can become All-Star caliber players, and a couple of the pitchers pan out. That does not mean we will become a perennial postseason team with Moose, Hos, and 7 Jason Kendall’s. Contributions will need to come from other players, but finding cheap, controllable All-Stars is the most difficult part of the equation.
The Royals under Moore have struggled to find those competent pieces
The players he has actually acquired are the Blancos, Getzes, and Kendalls. The premise rests upon Moore suddenly adding a bunch of good players from outside the current system, which based on his track record, is wishful thinking.
I firmly believe it is much easier to fill in a MLB roster with complementary players once you have your stars in place in the middle of a lineup. Throw Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer in our lineup everyday along with role players and our offense would be fine.
Would it be easy for Dayton Moore to find the right complementary players?
Wouldn’t he have to be good at evaluating and valuing talent? Unfortunately, he’s awful at that. It appears that you are suggesting that as long as four Royals prospects pan out, then the team will be a contender because Moore will certainly be able to fill in with players around them. Moore does not deserve and has not earned that kind of faith, and only blind faith could lead one to such a conclusion.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Sep 28, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe I've missed it elsewhere
But how do you explain the Betemit and Chen acquisitions? They seem like the archetype of league average complementary players.
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day?
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
Betemit was a nice pickup
and although he’s obviously way over his head, it does stand in sharp contrast to the Bloomquist, Podsednik, Ankiel, Betancourt, etc. Hopefully Moore will save his cash.
Bruce Chen is nowhere near being a league average pitcher.
by Matt Klaassen on Sep 28, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
And there's really no reason to think Betemit or Chen would be league average players next year, even if given full-time play
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Sep 28, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
right
no one is saying Moore has never made any good/cheap pickups, or that he won’t in the future, but they’ve been few and far between to this point.
by Matt Klaassen on Sep 28, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
And in order for the Royals to ever become a contender...
In addition to some prospects becoming very good players, Moore will have to augment the roster with some other average-to-somewhat-above average players (at least). While Moore has been able to find some good, cheap relievers (as well as a lot of crap), he hasn’t been able to find and acquire many (any?) league average position players. A 1/3 season flash-in-the-pan from Betemit doesn’t make for much of a resume.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Sep 28, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
What do we consider Callaspo?
Acquired by DM, fits that average-to-somewhat-above-average type.
I guess it’s not a pickup, but hey that’s something.
That's a good one
Callaspo counts. Moore turned a decent but limited pitching prospect into a pretty good position player. That’s something. I wish there were more.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Sep 28, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Those are two data points
Moore gets full credit for them. And he gets credit for all of the failures as well. And there have been many more (and much bigger) failures than successes. I really, really wish Dayton Moore and his people were not horrible major league talent evaluators. I didn’t want to believe it for a long time. But the truth is readily apparent.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Sep 28, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
If and when these young players produce....
they should be relatively cheap as should the entire team, outside of Greinke and possibly Butler. This should allow him to go after the Thome/Hudson/Pavano types, rather than the Jacobs/Bloomquist types.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Sep 28, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
And how well has Moore done when he's spent millions?
Not well. Meche’s contract looked awful at the time. Then it worked out for two years. Now it has proven to be a really bad contract for the Royals. Guillen…well, that speaks for itself. Ditto Farnsworth. There is no reason to believe that when Moore has big money to spend that he’ll spend it on the right players. None.
The immoderate moderator
by Scott McKinney on Sep 28, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
That's true in theory
But we still have to see if he picks the right players. Jacobs is a good example of where things can go wrong: Moore could have signed Eric Hinske or Russell Branyan for cheap, but he thought it was a better idea to get Mike Jacobs, Mike Jacobs who not only wasn’t as good as either of those guys in any respect, but cost a cheap reliever (granted, Nunez ended up being terrible that year, but it’s the principle), and got paid as twice as much as either of those guys. In fact, Jacobs made about twice as much in 2009 as Thome did this season.
As for Bloomquist, again, there were similar replacement players all over the place, or he better player the who took the same or less (David Eckstein, Craig Counsel).
The farm system is obviously good, and does provide the budget space to do you you’re saying, but the evidence from the past doesn’t show Moore making the right choices at the time.
by Matt Klaassen on Sep 28, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
The point is not...
…so much about the individual top-ranked prospects that were noticed by outside observers, but that those prospects were emblematic of a strong system overall. And that, I’m afraid, is what will make or break GMDM’s rebuilding process. The coaching and teaching of all prospects matters more than the “tools” and sexiness of standout individual talent. – TL
"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.
who cares if they help the playoff team or not....
most of the guys on that list have become very good to great players
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Sep 28, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
one of the guys you discounted....
is possibly the best pitcher in baseball
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Sep 28, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
it certainly matters to the issue of top ranked system = playoffs!
which was the point. Having the top ranked minor league system is undeniability a good thing, but it a large step from that to fielding a contender. These other teams all had good major league talent in place, which the Royals certainly do not.
Does that comment apply to the 2006 Diamondbacks?
I’m not sure that looking at that team in 2006, I’d have said they had good major league talent in place.
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
Every hitter apart from Counssell in the somewhere around average
A stellar bullpen and solid starting pitching?
I’d take that over the Royals right now.
Plus the biggest contributors to the 2007 Diamondbacks were already on the 2006 team
or in the case of Doug Davis, picked up over the offseason.
Webb 6.9 WAR in 2007 (best starter in the NL)
Byrnes 3.7
Hudson 3.0
Davis 2.4
Snyder 2.1
Nobody else was above 2.0 WAR
I'm not clear what this illustrates, except that hindsight is 20/20
If the young guys come up next year and contribute and the Royals surprise, it’ll still be the core of Greinke, Hochevar, Soria, Butler, DeJesus, and, let’s say, Betemit likely leading the team in WAR. Even if the new guys aren’t leaders right away, it still makes a big difference to replace a -1 WAR guy like SOS with a 1.5 WAR new pitcher.
It’s not as though the Royals are devoid of talent. They just have too many players who are contributing nothing or making the team worse. Replace those guys with even minimal contributors and the team gets better in a hurry.
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
by KSinDC on Sep 28, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It illustrates that your suggestion that the 2007 D'Backs lacked major league talent already in place is wrong
And it illustrates that the main point that there is not a direct causal connection between the top farm system ranking and that team making the playoffs within four years.
I'm with you on the lack of a causal connection
I’m not sure on this:
These other teams all had good major league talent in place, which the Royals certainly do not
What indicator of major league talent was present in October 2006 for the DBacks that isn’t present right now for the Royals?
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
The best pitcher in the league
Above average starters at C, 2B, 3B, and LF, a stellar bullpen, and the trade chips and substantial payroll flexibility to trade for Doug Davis and Randy Johnson.
The D’Back are not the model the Royals want to pursue — the 2007 D’Back beat their pythag record by a 11 games — so it took a lot of luck for them to make the playoffs.
We 99% agree
The DBacks are a bad model. There’s not a direct causal connection between #1 farm team and playoffs, etc.
But the Royals have an outstanding starting pitcher, outstanding closer, above average starters at 1B, 2B (if Chad Tracy is counting then so is Mike Aviles), and LF. I don’t see the Royals in any worse position. Granted, the DBacks division was weaker and they may have had more payroll flexibility (certainly true for DBacks ’07 vs Royals ’11) , but then the Royals will just have to demonstrate the minimal competence necessary to manage the minor league talent as poorly as the DBacks did.
And that’ll be all the more I have to say on this topic. I promise.
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
I would say that the current Royals could have a good bullpen by august next year
Depending who is brought up and if Crow/any others are converted to RP.
Are you counting DDJ as the above average LF?
This is what I mean about excessive pessimism
If you’re an Arizona fan in October 2006, you’re looking at a lineup that finished tied for last in the perpetually crappy NL West. That team had only one player (Brandon Webb) above 3.0 WAR and only 3 players (Webb, Eric Byrnes, and Orlando Hudson) above average (i.e. above 2.0 WAR).
"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"
Just out of curiosity
Were any of the “non-contributing” players you’ve dismissed traded for players who did contribute?
I am now channeling Will McDonald's optimism.
For some reason this sentence makes my head hurt
maybe I’m just being dumb.
Assuming I’ve understood you, let me see if I can try to fill in some blanks:
Gopherballs mentioned Smoak being traded for Cliff Lee (and if the Mariners really did pass on Montero…)
Joe Borchard (remember him?) eventually got traded to the Mariners for Matt Thornton in 2006
Jon Rauch was part of CHA’s first trade (2004) for Carl Everett!
Hee Seop Choi (~!) was traded to the Marlins for Derek Lee, I think the Marlins were trying to dump Lee’s salary, too lazy right now to look it up and analyze it
Bobby Hill (blast from the past!): B-R says “August 15, 2003: Sent by the Chicago Cubs to the Pittsburgh Pirates to complete an earlier deal made on July 23, 2003. The Chicago Cubs sent a player to be named later, Matt Bruback (minors) and Jose Hernandez to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Kenny Lofton, Aramis Ramirez and cash.”
Casey Kotchman brought Mark Teixeira to the Angels for about 50 games
Carlos Quentin was traded to the White Sox for Chris Carter, who was part of this massive trade: “December 14, 2007: Traded by the Arizona Diamondbacks with Brett Anderson, Aaron Cunningham, Dana Eveland, Carlos Gonzalez and Greg Smith to the Oakland Athletics for Dan Haren and Connor Robertson.”
Just some data. I think that’s all those that might be considered significant.
by Matt Klaassen on Sep 28, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
So, that's about 10 percent
of the entire list that should be (at least partially) added to the “productive” column.
I am now channeling Will McDonald's optimism.
Nice find.
The Royals stack up very nicely against their predecessors. Moustakas, Hosmer, Myers, Lamb and Montgomery all will appear in the upper half of our 2011 Top 100 list, and the only top-ranked organization with more firepower was the 2006 Diamondbacks, who claimed six of the top 32 spots.
Where are the Diamondbacks now? Where were they the next few years? 2007, 2008 2009
Perhaps they would be doing better
If they still had Cargo and Quentin
Diamondbacks
might have looked a bit different, if they had held on to Carlos Gonzalez and Carlos Gonzalez
"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009
"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876
Oops
Carlos Gonzalez and Carlos Quinton
"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009
"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876
And opps for me too
For not reading the comment right below mine
I love our prospects and I am going to be a complete homer for them, BUT
did anyone else get a bad feeling when reading this:
Let’s take a quick look at the last 10 No. 1 organizations, all of whom reached the major league postseason within four years of that ranking, and their Top 100 Prospects:
Somehow, I have a feeling the Royals will find a way to miss the postseason through 2014 and beyond. I wonder if they’ll still have the top farm system next year, as I really don’t think anyone other than Moustakas will see the big league club (Hosmer could be a Sept callup, but why give him the service time?).
I agree
I think the organization will have to counter their own, um…shortcomings, by acquiring even more farm talent by trading Greinke, Soria, and DeJesus (and possibly eventually Butler and other current players).
Given Moore’s relative incompetence in acquiring players on the open ML market(s)…we’d be hard-pressed to surpass .500 let alone make the playoffs, in my opinion, unless the above happens, and even then…
by Royals Nation on Sep 28, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
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