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Wednesday Thoughts: Club House Chemistry

The Boston Globe just ran an article about how team chemistry brought down the Red Sox (I would recommend reading it first before jumping into discussion).  I would like to high light 2 points in the article and draw a quick conclusion.

Point 1 - Group of players that get along become fat and cost Boston some wins

Drinking beer in the Sox clubhouse is permissible. So is ordering take-out chicken and biscuits. Playing video games on one of the clubhouse’s flat-screen televisions is OK, too. But for the Sox pitching trio to do all three during games, rather than show solidarity with their teammates in the dugout, violated an unwritten rule that players support each other, especially in times of crisis.

Sources said Beckett, Lester, and Lackey, who were joined at times by Buchholz, began the practice late in 2010. The pitchers not only continued the routine this year, sources said, but they joined a number of teammates in cutting back on their exercise regimens despite appeals from the team’s strength and conditioning coach Dave Page.

"It’ s hard for a guy making $80,000 to tell a $15 million pitcher he needs to get off his butt and do some work,’’ one source said.

For Beckett, Lester, and Lackey, the consequences were apparent as their body fat appeared to increase and pitching skills eroded. When the team needed them in September, they posted a combined 2-7 record with a 6.45 earned run average, the Sox losing 11 of their 15 starts.

Star-divide

Point 2. The best player on the team is an outcast:

Youkilis, by nearly all accounts, grew more detached and short-tempered as he tried to play through his ailments. He also factored in a divisive clubhouse issue as the only player last year who publicly criticized Jacoby Ellsbury - several others privately chided the outfielder - when Ellsbury missed all but 18 games with rib injuries.

The episode chilled Ellsbury’s relationship with the team. As joyful as Ellsbury’s MVP-caliber season was to many fans, his interaction in the Sox clubhouse was limited mostly to his friend Jed Lowrie. Ellsbury produced one of the most sensational seasons for a leadoff hitter in franchise history - he also ranked with Pedroia, Aceves, and Jonathan Papelbon among the team’s hardest workers - but he contributed little to the clubhouse culture.

Conclusion Confusion:  Let me get this straight, the players with the best chemistry on the Red Sox ended up getting out of shape and costing the teams wins.  On the other hand, the team out cast is a MVP candidate.  Does this mean that better team chemistry leads to less wins? Help me out here.

Comment 167 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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There's also this tidbit:

link

As Hurricane Irene barreled toward Boston in late August, management proposed moving up the Sunday finale of a weekend series against Oakland so the teams could play a day-night doubleheader either Friday, Aug. 26, or Saturday, Aug. 27. The reasoning seemed sound: the teams would avoid a Sunday rainout and the dilemma of finding a mutual makeup date for teams separated by 2,700 miles. But numerous Sox players angrily protested. They returned early that Friday from Texas after a demanding stretch in which they had played 14 of 17 games on the road, with additional stops in Minneapolis, Seattle, and Kansas City. The players accused management of caring more about making money than winning, which marked the first time the team’s top executives sensed serious trouble brewing in the clubhouse. As it turned out, the Sox swept the Saturday doubleheader, but that stormy day marked the beginning of the end for the 2011 team. It was the last time the team would win two games in a row. After getting two days off, the Sox spent the rest of the season playing uninspired, subpar baseball, losing 21 of their final 29 games. Sox owners soon suspected the team’s poor play was related to lingering resentment over the scheduling dispute, sources said. The owners responded by giving all the players $300 headphones and inviting them to enjoy a players-only night on principal owner John W. Henry’s yacht after they returned from a road trip Sept. 11. But the gestures made no difference. The hapless Sox became the laughingstocks of baseball as they went from holding a two-game divisional lead over the Yankees after the Aug. 27 doubleheader – and a nine-game advantage in the wild-card race over the Rays – to finishing a humiliating third in the AL East.

I’m no sports psychologist, but I personally believe that all sports have a major mental component. With the Red Sox and the Pirates, there were clearly defined turning points – it may be coincidental or it may have destroyed whatever mental edge the players needed to win.

by Loose Seal on Oct 12, 2011 2:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Like all chemistry/psychobabble arguments

these are lazy post-facto explanations

mythmaking exercises looking for answers

by Freneau on Oct 12, 2011 2:44 PM EDT reply actions  

And were they really out of shape?

Certainly adding some pounds doesn’t necessarily lead to worse pitching. There have been a lot of effective MLB pitchers who were genuinely obese. So, even with this anecdotal information, I still think there are some open questions there: 1) Did some Sox pitchers do less S&C work than they should have? 2) If so, were they out of shape and to what degree? 3) Was this a cause of worse pitching performance?

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Obviously CC Sabathia's struggles in the postseason

Are all the evidence we need!

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 12, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

A good example would be Lincecum

He got lazy last year and went through a period of struggles. He went back to long tossing and more conditioning, and ended the crappy stage and finished strong. Or was that this year?

by 306008 on Oct 12, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

No but the weight gain is the secondary thing

The lack of conditioning is the first. I know plenty of people who are skinny who never do anything and their cholesterol is over 250. And I know fat people who are in better physical condition than those skinny people.

The weight doesn’t have much to do except it’s a side effect. If a pitcher loses his legs, what happens? The ball gets up in the zone, the offspeed flattens out, his control suffers. If his body can’t go 200 innings like it used to and he pushes it, what happens? He either is ineffective on the mound, takes longer to recover which leads to less pen work and even less conditioning, and perhaps a complete breakdown.

by 306008 on Oct 12, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

^This!

as a former (college) pitcher, this is true. lose your conditioning and it takes longer to recover between starts and you wear down over the season. when your muscles are tired, they tighten up and tight muscles mean less control of fastball and less movement on breaking balls.

by DickHowser4ever on Oct 13, 2011 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

If there was a decline in control or velocity, I'd believe it.

But I don’t care enough about the Red Sox to investigate. I mean, there is some validity to the fattening claim. Successful obese pitchers typically start fat and stay fat, rather than getting worse.

But I still doubt that was the problem. The journalistic investigation certainly doesn’t actually investigate.

by dejezeus on Oct 12, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is there no connection between weight and conditioning?

I’m no scientist, but wouldn’t adding more weight be difficult to carry, and therefore hurt the conditioning established at a lower weight?

by dejezeus on Oct 12, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would think so

I understand 306008’s point about out-of-shape skinny people, and “fat” people who are actually in much better condition (see e.g. Roy Nelson in MMA). However, I agree with you that the key here is the change. Even if a person is carrying some extra pounds normally (i.e. when in “good shape”), the addition of even more extra pounds almost certainly indicates that his level of conditioning is slipping.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Oct 12, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Much Ado About Nothing

I’m about as far from a “team chemistry” guy as it gets, so factor that in if you read my thoughts here…
Chemistry comes from winning and trusting others, if you listen to “experts.” The Red Sox clubhouses have been about as bad at chemistry as any team since the early 2000s when Curt Schilling had public spats with teammates. There is ample evidence that the spanish speakers on the team (Manny and others) never talked with the english speakers (I’ve heard this about the Royals as well). When winning, they passed it off as the “Idiots”, but really it was not a story at all. They were one of the most talented teams in the league, with the money and brains to out-OPS and out-pitch everyone. The Red Sox won two World Series this decade and were dominant nearly every year, despite the constant changing of high-priced personnel. What is the lesson? Chemistry doesn’t matter. Good players make up good teams. High paid players can tend to act with entitlement, as douche-bags, but as long as they perform no one cares. Chemistry is fun to talk about, but it really doesn’t boil down to anything except something to blame or credit for failure or success. This year, it’s the blame that’s getting passed around in Boston.

Todd Haley's kids know more swear words than I do.

by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Oct 12, 2011 2:51 PM EDT reply actions  

And these Royals by all accounts got along better than any team we've seen in KC in some time

And they finished with 19 fewer wins than these disorganized, leader-less Red Sox.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 12, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Royals have a far different true talent level than the Red Sox

Good job tearing down the strawman that clubhouse chemistry is the only factor in winning ballgames

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Team chemistry means crap

Players drinking in the clubhouse during the game means the manager’s lost control of the squad, and that does mean more than crap. They don’t have to like each other but they do have to behave like professionals.

"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."

by Juancho on Oct 12, 2011 3:09 PM EDT reply actions  

So, wait, team chemistry is important

since they shouldn’t be running around with the chemical, methanol, in their systems.

"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."

by Juancho on Oct 12, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Methedrine Works, Though

As long as it’s the real thing and not some bathtub poison.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Oct 12, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

???

Methedrine = methamphetamine
Methanol = wood alcohol

Am I missing something here?

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just a small joke, I believe.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's Stronger Than

Greenies (dexedrine with amytal).

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Oct 12, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think chemistry is more important than the credit it is given.

Not for all players, because some guys go out there and aren’t mentally impacted by the guy next to them. But it is a team sport, and some guys fixate on that. If a guy feels disliked, his individual performance can suffer.

by dejezeus on Oct 12, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

But doesn't it seem that this practice began in 2010?

One thing is for sure. That if the leaders on the team are crap (seemingly Lester, Beckett, Lackey, Varitek, Ortiz, Youkilis) or become crap, then those who push the team to get better will become outcasts.

It also seems that once you get comfortable, you fall apart. Those guys used to be hard working guys that pushed the team to get better all the time, but became anti-work/anti-authority.

by 306008 on Oct 12, 2011 3:21 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree with you that not pushing yourself to improve can have an impact on the field.

I think team chemistry and the individual desire to push yourself are two different (they can be related, but not necessarily) concepts. It’s not that the three pitchers liked to drink beer and eat chicken in the clubhouse, it’s that they cut back on their exercise regimen. I think you may be on a similar line of thinking, but I am having trouble completely figuring out your stance.

by Connor Moylan on Oct 12, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I Cannot Imagine

J.D. Drew in that environment. He’s been known to be pretty sanctimonious in the clubhouse, even bitching about music he didn’t approve of.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Oct 12, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you hate your boss and the guys you work with, what happens?

I keep working hard and look for another job.

I think what a lot of us are pointing out is that many of these same things happen on all teams: the ones that perform very well, the ones that play like crap and everything in between. But after a collapse when people are looking for reasons that they latch onto these things and jump to the conclusion that they were the cause. It’s guesswork. Retro was entirely correct that the exact same things would have been spun completely differently had the Sox won the Series this year. In fact, they had many of the same things happen in the season where they won the WS, and they were spun as positives that got them over the top.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Certainly Lackey and I are not similarly situated

But I doubt he doesn’t care about his performance. I think he wants to win. I think he wants to be thought of as a good pitcher. I think he wants the contract that comes after this one too.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

and that contract doesnt happen for another 3 years....

this year has very little effect on his next contract should he choose to pursue one

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Oct 12, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think that's true

Don’t you think this year’s peformance will be taken into account by teams when he becomes a FA? I don’t think any team is stupid enough to just look at the prior year or two.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't we have the opposite discussion about Bruce Chen?

It’s better to keep him on short one-year leash to keep his performance at maximum?

What about the “salary drive” effect?

That information is somewhat classified.

by Karte on Oct 12, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know there was a study done at BP several years ago about player performance in “contract years” which found no relationship between those years and better performance.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would only see chemistry as a problem when it affects a player’s ability to prep. It is 25 people. This is not the 10 guys on beer league softball team. They did not choose to be together. They are not going to get along with each other. As long as each person can come in, do their job, and have fun doing it, who cares if the the Setup man and the backup OF don’t get along.

- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …

by Jeff Zimmerman on Oct 12, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I imagine that the motivation to support your teammates matters in stuff like conditioning work

Nobody likes doing conditioning work, and clearly lots of these players lack internal motivation. Having external motivation in the form of teammates you don’t want to let down (or teammates you don’t want to outshine you) would seem like it could make a big difference.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I've seen two teammates go ape shit in conditioning and practice just to out shine the other.

They hated each other. Hated. They did not have good chemistry, but made each other much better.

- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …

by Jeff Zimmerman on Oct 12, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are definitely positive and negative sources of motivation

But, love or hate, if it’s the teammate that motivates you, the source of motivation is external, and that depends on the people around you.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe you're on to something.

Maybe the key to look at is not chemistry ever. Replace it with motivation.

Does the team have motivation?
Does the player have motivation?
Who gives an “eff” if they have chemistry, are they motivated to get better?

- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …

by Jeff Zimmerman on Oct 12, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

All-hate team = championship.

I like it. If they survive the season without killing each other. So, obviously, no Carlos Zambrano.

by dejezeus on Oct 12, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

What would be tougher to put together

25 players that hate each other

or

9 that all get along

- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …

by Jeff Zimmerman on Oct 12, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Worked for the As in the 70s.

Although they all hated Charlie O even more than each other, which gave them something to bond over, I guess. I can’t remember who said it, but I remember reading some quote from a first baseman in the 70s who said he never worried about the As because when they’d get to first base they’d all just be bitching about each other, but then they slowly stopped bitching about each other and to a man started just bitching about Charlie and then he got worried.

by Gross(est) on Oct 12, 2011 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Finley Was Universally

Hated, but he was no dummy. He did bizarre things like riding the mule around the warning track during the seventh inning stretch, but he was a bit of a showman. The early 70’s A’s were his creation. They presaged the Bronx Zoo, but they won consistently. I still kind of wish they’d have stayed in KC.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Oct 13, 2011 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that a lot of writers try to only believe in positive sources of motivation within a clubhouse

And chemistry is supposed to be the proxy for that.

I guess the fire-breathing manager represents the sources of negative motivation in the standard journalism cliches.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The 3 pitchers needed some negative motivation

Get in shape or else type of stuff.

You would hope all 3 were professionals and could be self motivated. They weren’t. It is time to go with negative reinforcement.

- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …

by Jeff Zimmerman on Oct 12, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's 'effective chemistry'...

if not ‘happy chemistry’. Maybe two guys hating each other is not good chemistry in the sense that one looks forward to going to work and enjoying the environment, and all the ‘feel-good’ stuff, but it’s excellent chemistry in terms of making the participants better at what they’re doing, improving the results on the field. Not that I’d try to duplicate that animosity between two players, but I think your example illustrates that something considered a bad thing could turn out to be a good thing. ‘Good’ chemistry would largely be luck, then.

If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.

by setupunchtag on Oct 14, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd question this bigtime.
clearly lots of these players lack internal motivation.

Clearly?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 13, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe they don't think the extra conditioning work is actually helpful

They can be motivated to perform at a high level and disagree with the S&C coach’s exercise program. Also “if the article is to be believed” is a big point. I don’t think there’s good reason to believe that some anonymous source’s characterization of the situation is very credible.

There’s a ton we don’t know here and I see a lot of assumptions being made.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 13, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those guys definitely chunked up during the year

And I don’t really care why they lack internal motivation (maybe they think it’s not helpful, maybe they haven’t really thought about it); I’m just saying that it’s clear that they lack internal motivation.

There’s plenty of conjecture in the article, but I don’t think there’s a serious case to be made against the idea that the pitchers, especially Lester and Beckett, gained weight (not lean muscle) this year.

They gained weight —> they weren’t doing as much conditioning —> they lack internal motivation.

I don’t think there’s any flaws in that logic, and I don’t think the observation that begins the chain is disputable.

by KSinDC on Oct 13, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

How much weight did they gain? Was it significant? Was this due to a lack of internal motivation? You seem certain that was the cause of this weight gain of unknown degree. I don’t think we can assume that.

They gained weight —> they weren’t doing as much conditioning —> they lack internal motivation.
I don’t think there’s any flaws in that logic,

As long as you are willing to make a series of assumptions, there are no flaws in it. They gained weight. How much? Was it significant. They weren’t doing as much conditioning. Do we know that? The anonymous source said that, but should we just assume every single unconfirmed anonymous source in an article is telling the truth. But let’s say it is true. If a player “cuts back on his exercise regimen” as the article states, is that necessarily because of a lack of internal motivation? Are there no other valid, and even common reasons to cut back on an exercise regimen? For instance, couldn’t they think that in the latter half of a long season, the exercise is just making them more fatigued and less than 100% for their starts? And there are a host of other possibilities. You’re basically saying that if a player doesn’t want to exercise as much as the S&C coach suggests, then he lacks internal motivation. Isn’t it common for players to have disagremeents with their team as to their S&C program? I think everyone’s heads are being turned by an inflammatory article which paints these players as lazy, therefore everything is being seen through that highly questionable and poorly supported lens.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 13, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd guess Beckett gained 10 or 15 pounds at least

I suppose he could have contracted gout or something, but absent some unusual illness, people gain weight when the consume more calories than they burn. Keeping those two in balance is your basic conditioning program, so Occam’s Razor (and the lack of disclosure of any unusual illness sweeping the Boston pitching ranks) says he wasn’t doing as much conditioning.

As to the second part, given that internal motivation is sufficient to do conditioning work, lack of conditioning requires lack of internal motivation. If you’re arguing otherwise, it must be some disagreement over the meaning of motivation or something like that.

There’s plenty to question in the article, but I don’t think the idea that the Red Sox starting rotation gained weight (and the implication that a lack of conditioning is responsible) are among them.

by KSinDC on Oct 13, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

First, you’re assuming that gaining 10-15 pounds hurt his pitching. We don’t know this. I don’t even know if we can say with confidence that it is likely.

As to the second part, given that internal motivation is sufficient to do conditioning work, lack of conditioning requires lack of internal motivation. If you’re arguing otherwise, it must be some disagreement over the meaning of motivation or something like that.

What if they just disagreed with the coach’s S&C program and thought something less was better? Not just less because they didn’t feel like working out, but less because they thought less of this or that would be better for their pitching? Does that mean that they weren’t motivated to stay in good shape? Or was it perhaps a good faith disagreement about the S&C program?

You’re making a lot of cognitive leaps that you are comfortable with. I’m not comfortable with those cognitive leaps, especially based on some anecdotes from an anonymous source which may or may not be credible.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 13, 2011 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've said nothing about how it affects his pitching

The only points I’ve made in this entire thread are:

  • the pitchers, especially Beckett, gained weight (clearly observable)
  • this reflects a lack of conditioning (a little conjecture, but I think meets Occam’s razor)
  • this requires a lack of internal motivation to do conditioning (logically valid, I believe)
  • team chemistry could have affected this by affecting external motivation (a bigger reach, but stated less strongly as a result)

Nothing I’ve said relies in any way on any statement in the article. The article provides additional support for the idea that they were slacking on their S&C, but I think anybody who’d seen Beckett this fall had that idea independently.

As for the idea that this was all a plan, I guess it’s possible that somebody really believed in good faith that getting fat was a good strategy for staying fresh down the stretch, but I feel safe disregarding that possibility. I know formal logic would require accounting for highly improbable but still theoretically possible alternate causes, but I think we can dispense with that in the real world.

by KSinDC on Oct 13, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

As for the idea that this was all a plan, I guess it’s possible that somebody really believed in good faith that getting fat was a good strategy for staying fresh down the stretch, but I feel safe disregarding that possibility

What was alleged was that these three pitchers “cut back on their exercise regimen.” You describing that as a plan to get fat is a false characterization and yet another cognitive leap based on very litle. If you are saying that they clearly gained sooooo much weight that this couldn’t have been an honest decision to lighten their exercise routine as a way to stay fresh in the second half, then I believe that is again unsupported. It’s not like the pictures of these three pitchers show clear evidence that they added huge amounts of weight and got into awful physical condition.

Do you think it is uncommon for players to choose to workout less in the dog days of summer when the season is wearing them down? Is that necessarily because they don’t have internal motivation? Or because they feel like additional exercise over and above the daily grind of a 7 month baseball season isn’t a good idea? I think your conclusions are overly facile and weakly supported.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 13, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I gave pictures of Beckett at the same point in the season this year and last

And he’s clearly significantly heavier this year. At least 10-15 pounds. He did something different this year, and the result was a belly where there wasn’t one before. I can not believe that that was a conscious plan.

I’m describing it as cutting back on his exercise regimen because there’s only two ways to gain fat: consuming more calories or burning fewer. I guess I should have expicitly included the possibility that Beckett was eating himself out of last year’s pants, so I now include that. Either way, I think both eating and exercise fit into a S&C regimen.

I am making the leap of logic that professional athletes do not take months off of conditioning and let their weight balloon in the middle of their competitive season as a way to gain an advantage. Therefore, that result reflects a lack of motivation to do the conditioning that other players do (and that these players had done before this year). You think that’s a giant leap. I think it’s so small as to be negligible.

Some fat people are very successful athletes, but outside of sumo, I’ve never heard of any athlete who decides to add fat as a competitive strategy. I seriously can not believe we’re debating the possibility that Beckett did.

by KSinDC on Oct 13, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or maybe the lower back strain that caused issues for him last year

continued into the offseason. Maybe he felt like he needed to rest that so it could heal.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 14, 2011 6:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can't believe I hadn't thought of that

Injury/soreness/pain also can lead to less exercise.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 14, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're getting close to a distinction without a difference

I think that soreness/pain leading to less exercise is inextricably bound up with motivation.

If it’s an injury that leaves him unable to do exercises without harming himself, that’s a different matter.

by KSinDC on Oct 14, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that soreness/pain leading to less exercise is inextricably bound up with motivation.

Only if the soreness/pain was caused by less exercise. And I don’t think we know the order of events, much less what caused what.

If it’s an injury that leaves him unable to do exercises without harming himself, that’s a different matter.

That is a possibility that I am suggesting.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 14, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Conditioning isn't fun

Fatty foods taste good. Running is exhausting. Lifting weights hurts. Pushing past that short-term negative feedback is why you need motivation.

I don’t see any way to separate pushing past soreness and pain (from whatever source) from all the rest of pushing past discomfort that motivation is required for.

by KSinDC on Oct 14, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not talking about the not-fun aspect of exercising while dealing with pain. I’m talking about a player thinking it is a genuinely bad idea to do some exercises while dealing with some injury/soreness/pain because it may well make things worse. If I’m a pitcher with a sore pitching shoulder, I’m going to very hesitant to do any lat pulls, bench press, military press, upright rows, etc. Similarly with a leg issue, I don’t know that it is best to do a lot of running. When you’re dealing with injury/pain/soreness it’s often not best to just push through it and keep doing your full exercise regimen. While one may disagree with the specifics, isn’t that a rational and reasonable potential reason to cut back on one’s exercise regimen?

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 14, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely, if there's a risk of injury

I was trying to separate out the cases where you don’t follow your program to avoid exacerbating an existing injury and the cases where you don’t follow your conditioning program because the mental energy required to deal with your injury makes it harder to push through the agony on unrelated exercises or harder to say no to the food that’s not on your diet or whatever. The first is totally separate from motivation. The second is inseparable from motivation.

by KSinDC on Oct 14, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

These three pitchers “took months off conditioning”? So now you’re not saying that they cut back on their exercise regimen, you’re alleging that they stopped working out altogether? Is that supported? And is gaining 10-15 pounds “letting one’s weight balloon”? No, they don’t decide to add fat. But yes sometimes they exercise less, and not necesarily because of laziness. Sometimes it can be poor judgement.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 14, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

10-15 pounds in a year (or half a year) is a ton of weight to add

It represents a 35,000 to 50,000 calorie imbalance in intake to outtake. It is definitely letting one’s weight balloon.

I can see poor judgment as a reason for cutting back on a conditioning program for a few weeks and putting on a few pounds, but it looked to me like Beckett kept gaining weight month after month. It’s the failure to halt that or turn that around that makes me say that this was a decision to put on weight or a lack of motivation to keep it off.

by KSinDC on Oct 14, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is a 4-6% weight gain (which is what 10-15 pounds represents for Beckett) really “a ton of weight to add”? Doesn’t sound like ballooning to me. But I guess that’s subjective.

I can see poor judgment as a reason for cutting back on a conditioning program for a few weeks and putting on a few pounds, but it looked to me like Beckett kept gaining weight month after month. It’s the failure to halt that or turn that around that makes me say that this was a decision to put on weight or a lack of motivation to keep it off.

Also, I don’t even know if it was poor judgement. Follow me here. Let’s say he makes the decision to cut back on his exercise regimen. That leads to some weight gain, but doesn’t hurt his performance (as the numbers show). If the performance doesn’t suffer, then why go back to the old workout routine? Isn’t that the thought process that he could have used? Does that show a lack of internal motivation?

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 14, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

I see what you're saying now

I’d been using his fitness/weight as the effect to be studied (because I assume it has some causal relationship to performance, but I can’t measure it) and using the fact of deteriorating weight as powerful evidence for a lack of motivation to maintain fitness/weight.

You’re using pitching performance as the effect to be studied and treating weight as a potentially extraneous outcome, so a consistent pitching performance could leave us with no effect that needed a cause to explain it.

In this case, I guess Beckett would not being getting fat as a plan, but rather disregarding his weight as a plan. I suppose likely enough to be worth considering.

By any metric except xFIP (ERA, FIP, IP/GS, SO/BB), Beckett deteriorated over the last three months of the season (although that partly reflects a great July that was well above his career average). We can’t really know how he thought he was pitching, but there’s plenty of things that could have caused him concern as the second half of the season went along, and, if that’s the case, it would be reasonable to wonder if the extra weight was contributing to that.

by KSinDC on Oct 14, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re also completely ignoring the many health benefits of fried chicken and beer. I’m am currently in the midst of a personal multi-decade longitudinal study of these effects.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 14, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have disappointing news for you

I was running a similar study, and it was halted early because the external monitors were concerned about the patient’s health.

I’m think the flaw in the previous stud was failure to include enough time sitting on the couch in front of the computer, so I’m going to restart with that added to the protocol.

by KSinDC on Oct 14, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, Beckett is listed at 225 and I think I'm being conservative with the 10-15 lbs

The calorie math was meant to show how big a change it would take (50-75 extra meals or 350 fewer hours on the treadmill or some combination) to put on that much weight. Obviously, the shorter time period it’s compressed into, the more alarming that would be.

As a general rule, I think any time you see someone you’ve seen within a year and you immediately notice their weight gain, I think it’s fair to say their weight is ballooning, Obviously, this takes more for a guy who’s 6’4" and wears loose fitting clothes, but I think that’s true of Beckett. Also, I realize this is a completely subjective test.

by KSinDC on Oct 14, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Things like this couldn't have anything to do with less conditioning...nope, no way. Lack of internal motivation.
Red Sox medical director Dr. Tom Gill said in a statement that Beckett’s “examination was consistent with an ankle sprain,” adding that an MRI revealed no damage to Beckett’s ankle tendons or his Achilles’ tendon.

That was from early September.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 14, 2011 6:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's been hurt every year

Usually if an effect shows up that hasn’t appeared before (significant weight gain), we’d want to look for a cause that hadn’t appeared before.

Due to injury, he missed
13 games in 2011
63 games in 2010
5 games in 2009
26 games in 2008
14 games in 2007…

If your point is that just by seeing him gain 15 pounds, we can’t conclude that he was unmotivated to follow his conditioning program, I’ll concede that I hadn’t considered the possibility that there could be injuries that left him unable to follow that program but still allowed him to pitch. If your point is that, in the face of the totality of the evidence (weight gain plus the assertions in the article), there’s much reason to believe that motivation for conditioning is lacking, I’m not seeing it.

by KSinDC on Oct 14, 2011 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Beckett gained a lot of weight

Compare this picture from the final game against the Orioles:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/photos?gameId=310926101&photoId=1583051

To this picture from a year before against the Yankees:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/photos?gameId=300924110&photoId=846330

He’s definitely significantly fatter.

by KSinDC on Oct 13, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but

they say dark blue is very slimming.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Oct 13, 2011 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

But did whatever weight gain he experienced affect his performance?

If you take out BABIP luck and HR/FB luck, he pitched pretty damn well in the second half of the season:

xFIP by month
July 3.10
Aug 3.34
Sept/Oct 2.96

Here are the numbers for Jon Lester
July 2.47
Aug 3.97
Sept/Oct 3.79

So did these guys really have bad second halves or did they experience some bad batted ball and HR luck? Is this all much ado about nothing?

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 13, 2011 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're underselling how much difference there is in weight.

There’s likely 20 pounds here.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Oct 14, 2011 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

"only"

That’s a really big ONLY. Prep and practice are everything. – TL

"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

by timlacy on Oct 12, 2011 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you can't look for another job

Maybe you, individually, still work just as hard, but I don’t think that’s true individually.

The fact that sports journalists construct their arguments poorly doesn’t prove the conclusion false. Contra Retro, I’m not sure that hanging on by the skin of their teeth after an epic collapse would have generated a substantially different narrative. The argument you’re making here Scott, that the same situation would have been written about differently if the Sox won the series is just assuming the conclusion, since the only way that happens is if these behaviors don’t affect the outcome of games.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think we have good reason to believe that these behaviors do affect the outcome of games

We can speculate, but that’s about all. There were some similar stories about the WS winning Red Sox team, but they were spun as the wild and whacky goings on of a diverse group of talented baseball misfits who somehow put it together to win it all.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know you think that

I was just pointing out that your argument about this year’s team assumed that in reaching that same conclusion. I’m not saying that your position is wrong, merely that your argument doesn’t provide any support for it (much like the writers for the Globe).

And chemistry is always going to be a factor among several, including luck and talent. A team winning with bad chemistry doesn’t prove chemistry doesn’t matter any more than a team winning with bad luck (of the types we can measure) proves that luck doesn’t matter

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

For the record my point wasn’t that the Red Sox won the WS with a team with bad chemistry. My point was that the same anecdotes will be spun in one direction or the other to explain X (X being either a good result or a bad result). Therefore the deeper point is that we really don’t know much about a team’s chemistry and little anecdotes about the behavior of or relationship between some players doesn’t give us much meaningful information about the team’s chemistry. Are they getting along? Is that helping or hurting the team? Are they motivated? Who knows.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I 100% agree with you on writers spinning anecdotes

I’m just saying that if clubhouse sloth really does cause teams to lose then it’s not that instructive to think about whether that cause and effect relationship would still hold in an alternate history where instead of losing, the Red Sox won the World Series. You’ve already assumed that the cause and effect doesn’t hold in order to creat the alternate history.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, if A caused B

And my point is that we have no idea if A caused B.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right, but you can't illustrate that with an alternate history

where B fails to appear in the presence of A. The construction of the alternate history with A and without B assumes the conclusion that A might not cause B.

Writer says: winds from the north caused the temperature to fall
Counter-argument: if the wind came from the north and the temperature didn’t fall, you’d say that the wind kept the temperature steady (or, perhaps that we have no idea if the wind from the north affected the temperature)

The counter argument is constructed assuming that the writer’s argument is false. If the writer’s causal relationship was true, the scenario in the counter-argument would be impossible. Since we’re assuming it’s true for sake of argument, we have to assume that the writer’s conclusion is false.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, I don’t really think I’ve been disputing that point. I don’t think that’s the crux of team chemistry argument.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

good point.
I keep working hard and look for another job.

Someone should tell Elllsbury that he should consider signing somewhere else this winter.

Nick Swisher is handsome. Johnny Giavatella close second.

by ChrisCEIT on Oct 12, 2011 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sort of perplexed at the response here

This is an article about a crappy team suffering a terrible record in its most important games. Obviously it’s written from the point of view that chemistry matters. I can understand rejecting that conclusion on the basis of inadequate evidence, but I can’t understand how this is evidence in favor of the opposite conclusion.

I don’t think anybody is claiming that effort doesn’t matter in baseball, so essentially the claim is that workplace environment doesn’t affect effort (or doesn’t affect it in a predictable way), right? But maximizing effort is hard. There are hundreds of psychological studies showing how difficult it is to sustain effort. I know from my experience that I work much harder in certain situations (e.g. I believe in what I’m doing; people I care about depend on me; trying to prove somebody else wrong; or doing something that my family needs) than in others. I don’t understand why it’s outrageous to suggest the same is true of baseball players.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:05 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I think the problem is that there’s so much we don’t know. Was there legitimately bad “clubhouse chemistry” in Boston? A few anecdotes don’t answer that question. Did that chemistry affect effort? If so, to what degree? And then how much did the change in effect affect performance?

There are so many unknowns and yet the journalist did what sports journalists often do: make a facile causal connection between certain anecdotes and a bad final result for the team.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that this article proves nothing

I’m surprised at the people who think that it proves the opposite conclusion from the one the authors intended. I’m also surprised at people who think the author’s conclusion is false because this argument is poorly constructed.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

We can all agree: bad journalism!

But what about the bigger question on club house chemistry and how it affects individual performance?

by dejezeus on Oct 12, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think we have absolutely no idea

I think we can all agree that it has some effect on individual performance. But I think have no idea to what degree or how various thing will affect various players and the overall affect that will have on a team. For instance, if a team acquires someone widely regarded as a “good clubhouse guy” can we say with confidence that this will help the team’s W/L record or run differential? It might. But it might not. Maybe the reputation is BS and he really isn’t a good clubhouse guy. Maybe he’s a “strong leader” that some players really like, but really piss off others who don’t want a “strong leader in the clubhouse.” There are so many variables here and I don’t think we can get beyond guesswork with any confidence.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course there won't be data to rank a theoretical chemistry meter.

That means two things in the long term:
1) Everything said about the benefits of team chemistry is speculative.
2) Everything said ignoring the benefits of team chemistry is speculative.

Well…darn.

by dejezeus on Oct 12, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it "matters"

but it matters in the sense that a player’s relationship with his wife matters, or the fact his kid has some medical problem, or it matters whether or not the player was out drinking too much/too late the night before, or it matters whether one player is pissed off at another because he thinks the guy was cheating at dominoes, etc. Or maybe it doesn’t. No one really knows whether or how much of an effect these sorts of factors have on a player’s (or a team’s performance). Not even the player. One player might say he was distracted by his son’s health and impending operation, and suffered a bad stretch of games. Another player might say his son’s condition helped him focus and inspired him to tough out a rough stretch and play better.

It’s all guesswork. The problem comes in when the media comes in and uses “chemistry”, etc. as a post hoc ergo propter hoc “explanation” for why things turned out the way they did.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Oct 12, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't quite agree with that

I think ignoring it make sense because we should ignore the unknowable. Perhaps astrology and biorythms meaningfully impact performance. Does that mean we should take them seriously? Provide some good data supporting the connection, and that you understand the connection, and I’ll take it seriously. Until then, I think they should be ignored.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to put words in Jeff’s mouth, but I think he’s pointing out the inconsistency. The best player didn’t get along with anyone. The guys with the best group chemistry didn’t perform well. If chemistry is so important, how is it that the guy with the worst group chemistry, Ellsbury, ended up being the only reliable player?

If those three Red Sox pitchers would have been nails down the stretch, the narrative becomes about how these goofy guys stayed loose by playing video games between starts. Since they lost, the narrative is that they weren’t serious.

A succesful manager is loose and lets the guys be the guys, a failing manager has not discipline and the team is out of control.

A succesful manager is a strong leader with a firm hand, a failing manager is a control freak that’s lost the clubhouse. We fit the narrative to the results after the fact. None of this stuff matters as much as talent.

Let's just trust the process.

by trusttheprocess on Oct 12, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Nobody claims that it matters as much as talent

People just claim that it matters.

And again, it is an invalid form of argument to say a cause and effect relationship doesn’t exist on the basis of a hypothetical where the cause didn’t produce the same effect. It’s just assuming the conclusion.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it matters, like a lot of intangibles

Like grit, heart and fire in the belly (and I’m not being sarcastic or snarky here). Those things matter, to some degree. But we don’t know who has it and how much value those things have. And team chemistry is even more complicated because there are more variables at work. I think putting any focus on it is a waste of time. It gets us nowhere.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I assume that teams spend money on sports psychologists

I hope that they’re looking to gain an edge through harnessing the pyschological data on motivation and other relevant subjects. I agree that we, as fans (or journalists), have almost none of the data we’d need to draw our own conclusions.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder how many teams spend money on sports psychologists

I have a strong feeling that it is a very small percentage, at least in the U.S. And I wonder if that psychological research on motivation has been used to affect how a team is managed. I know some players have used sports psychologists. I doubt any MLB managers have used them to improve how they handle a team. If any, I would guess that it has been very, very few. I also wonder if this has had any positive effect.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

It seems like very low hanging fruit

Psychologists aren’t very expensive relative to the cost of players’ salaries. It’d be a shame if teams weren’t using whatever science has to offer.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I suppose it is worth a shot

I do think, however that MLB managers would be loathe to change the way they manager a team based on some psychologist’s research or advice. I think this falls in the large category of things that managers could do which might/should improve the team’s bottom line, but that they won’t actually do. As with my various “sabermetric manager” ideas, this would probably only be doable if you got some hungry manager in AA who would be willing to go along with a radical new way of doing things because he wanted a MLB managerial job so badly.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I definitely agree with that

Baseball is a fabulous counterargument for people who believe markets are efficient. Even though baseball teams get the sort of concrete feedback that most businesses could only dream of, there’s still a huge resistance to trying things that could gain a competitive edge.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the hidden psychologist may work

Don’t let the player’s know he is one. Could be a trainer or just a consultant.

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by Jeff Zimmerman on Oct 12, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also keep in mind that one owners recently spent lots of money in astrology,

hoping to affect his team’s performance. Of course, this was Frank McCourt, but..

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!

by KeepItCopacetic on Oct 12, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do you base that on?

Maybe that’s true, but I certainly haven’t heard or read about it. About once every three years I read about some player using a sports psychologist and it is treated as an exceptional occurence, not something that is the norm that “every team” does.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 13, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just from things I've read and psych classes I've taken.

Twenty years ago, I’d be on your side. Today I just think every organization understands that there is a mental side to it all and “tough it out” isn’t always the best answer.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Oct 14, 2011 6:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just surprised I haven't heard/read more about it

I wouldn’t be surprised if most teams had a guy in their rolodex to refer a player to if he seems to be having a particular issue (depression, etc.). I would be surprised if most teams had a guy who the used frequently.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 14, 2011 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also, I was talking more in terms of someone to advise the manager

As opposed to someone to work with players on breaking slumps. I think that there’s much more actual evidence available in the case of managing people than in slump-busting.

by KSinDC on Oct 14, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I don't think they do that

But it would be something interesting for a team to explore, as long as the manager is open to it. Quite frankly, I don’t think teams use psychologists much to improve the motivaiton of their players. I think they mostly use them the same way they use doctors. If you’ve got a problem (tendonitis, depression, etc.) then they send the player to the appropriate healthcare professional.

I’ve heard of some players going to a “sports psychologist” to deal with psychological issues which are specific to being a professional athlete, but that’s about all.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 14, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Clearly these are traits that scrappy undersized white players have

while more athletically gifted players of color just get by on natural talent…

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Oct 12, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

and charisma, although not leadership skills

I believe the UNL football team employees a team psychologist…and this was BEFORE Bo Pelini….I would certainly consider employing one for a sports team. Esp baseball. Dealing with failure, rabbit punches to the kidneys, an penis envy is a Freudian nightmare of Freudian proportions.

by Nighthawk at the Diner on Oct 12, 2011 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doh!

I just posted this article as a FanShot. I didn’t scroll down far enough on the Home page.

That information is somewhat classified.

by Karte on Oct 12, 2011 4:06 PM EDT reply actions  

deleted

- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …

by Jeff Zimmerman on Oct 12, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks!

That information is somewhat classified.

by Karte on Oct 12, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Something tells me that

these old school sports “journalists” who like to talk about clubhouse chemistry are the same ones who tell the statheads that “baseball isn’t played on a spreadsheet!”

Therefore, I’d just like to tell these guys that – BASEBALL ISN'T PLAYED IN A CHEMISTRY LAB!

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Oct 12, 2011 4:34 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Baseball also isn't played in a psychologist's office

Or in a group encounter session. Or in some hippy’s drum circle.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm amazed that the real story is deflected...

At the trade deadline the Braves and the Red Sox had no depth. They both had decent farm systems where they didn’t have to replenish the MLB talent pool much and they didn’t address concerns.. Don’t want to give up a B- prospect for Bruce Chen because of 5 year WAR projections? You missed the playoffs by one game and your GM is gone and your manager. Down the stretch the Braves had no offense.. but they didn’t want Melky back because of past history.. He would have really helped.. Toast.

Flags fly forever and if you are a contending team and you don’t go for it you have no one to blame but yourselves. The teams that are still competing Texas, Detroit, Philly, and Milwaukee sacrificed future superior value for bullpen arms, Fister/D. Young, H. Pence, and Z. Greinke.

by dyehardfan on Oct 12, 2011 4:44 PM EDT reply actions  

The Braves did trade 4 guys for Bourn, its not like they sat on their hands

injuries to their starting rotation, and a manager who overworked his bullpen were the more likely culprits for the braves

by BeauJackson on Oct 12, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent point

A good story could have been written that perhaps this is evidence that prospects are being overvalued here because a deadline acquisition or two could have gotten them over the top.

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by Scott McKinney on Oct 12, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

the yankees made no moves at the deadline, and made the playoffs with ease though

it seems like the conditioning of the ptichers, and injuries to bucholz/youkilis/bedard are what doomed the red sox

by BeauJackson on Oct 12, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that with Boston or any of the large markets, they (team and more so the fans) need to sign big names.

The Sox just needed some 2 WAR pitchers to give everyone the correct time off and some stability. I don’t get how they don’t pay for 3-4 of them over the season.

- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …

by Jeff Zimmerman on Oct 12, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

how many guys would want to go to boston for that purpose though?

if we’re talking #5 starters, how much more would the red sox offer to make a guy want to come there for no guaranteed starts, when you have a team like the royals offering say a francis level contract and a season’s worth of starts?

by BeauJackson on Oct 12, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

depends on how much you pay them

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by Jeff Zimmerman on Oct 12, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think everyone is missing the real story

Something is pretty messed up with beer, fried chicken, and video games leads to BAD clubhouse chemistry. I simply refuse to believe that is possible.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Oct 12, 2011 5:19 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I know it's petty

But I’d be pretty pissed at guys that sat in the clubhouse playing video games during the games. I can’t explain it, but it just seems like such a flagrant way to slack off.

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think you might be missing my lame attempt at humor

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Oct 12, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I shouldn't have made it a reply to your comment

I appreciated your joke. It just made me think about them having their beer party in the clubhouse while the rest of the team is "working’

Failure to interrupt stream of consciousness thinking is an ongoing problem for me

by KSinDC on Oct 12, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

--Albert Einstein

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Oct 12, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

i would have laughed

but you backed out when telling us what you REALLY get called on xbox when you do that crap.

Nick Swisher is handsome. Johnny Giavatella close second.

by ChrisCEIT on Oct 13, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Or maybe Lester is

LEEEERROOOOOY JENKINS!

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 13, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

i would agree that

“chemistry”, while playing a role, is unquantifiable…to me the issue is the conditioning of the pitchers…i do believe that their lack of conditioning very well could and probably did lead to their poor performance down the stretch…take their W/L record during the end of the year and compare it to their W/L record up to that point…if you extrapolate that out (crude, i know) the sox end up with a much better record and are safely in the playoffs.

Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

--Albert Einstein

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Oct 12, 2011 11:25 PM EDT reply actions  

W/L Is A

Team counting stat. A pitcher rarely wins or loses solely on their own.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Oct 13, 2011 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

OK, but

they had a 6.45 ERA, I think you get the point I’m making.

Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

--Albert Einstein

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Oct 13, 2011 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think anyone would say ERA over a stretch that small is very conclusive

I’m not saying they didn’t pitch poorly, but their is a chance they just got quite unlucky.

by njd.aitken on Oct 13, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

sure, there is a chance

but i would say that there is a much greater chance that they let themselves go to shit and pitched poorly because of it.

Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

--Albert Einstein

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Oct 13, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's a whole string of assumptions here which are based on little or no evidence

1. Those pitchers didn’t work out enough.
2. They were in poor physical condition.
3. Their poor physical condition caused worse performance on the mound.

Do we really know that these pitchers “let themselves go to shit”? Do we really have good evidence of it? Some anonymous source said they didn’t do the extra conditioning that a coach wanted them to do. Is that true? Does “not doing extra conditioning” mean they let themselves go to shit? Was the cause of worse performance their physical condition. I see lots of jumping to conclusions.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Oct 13, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

i could see personally

that beckett was getting fat, just by looking at him….is it really different than jumping to the conclusion that conditioning does not play a factor?

i am going to assume for the sake of this discussion that what was reported was true…that these three pitchers were not taking care of themselves like they probably should have been (i will ignore the “chemistry” part of it)….when you are playing a high-level professional sport, when the difference between player #1 and player #100 is probably extremely, extremely small, you’re going to tell me that conditioning and training don’t matter?

Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

--Albert Einstein

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Oct 13, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Beckett's ERA in Sept is interesting

His ERA sucks, but his K-BB ratio seems in line with the rest of his season (26-7)

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Oct 13, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

home runs

his HR/FB rate went from about 7% from April to July, to 16.7% and 23.8% in August and September/October

by BeauJackson on Oct 13, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder what Wade Boggs has to say about all this?

I just caught the David Ortiz interview, and he gave what felt like one of the few honest sports interviews. He said that they were doing it (eating fried chicken and drinking beer) in 2004, they were doing it 2007, and while he didn’t /agree/ with it, didn’t think that was the end-all-be-all cause for their collapse. Of course, I sometimes have a tough time with the nuance of a player’s point when there’s an obvious language difference – but regardless he seemed fairly disinterested in throwing those players under the bus. Last night when I first read through this thread, I was kind of incredulous that some out there would point out that the flagrant extra-curricular activities (and I would have been mostly concerned with the pitcher’s off-day ritual) really should have no effect on the other players, and maybe have minimal effect on their own performance. But I got even more curious – do these guys only do it when all three have off-days? Maybe I don’t really care.

Nick Swisher is handsome. Johnny Giavatella close second.

by ChrisCEIT on Oct 13, 2011 9:49 AM EDT reply actions  

Thought more about this while watching baseball last night

Beckett, Lester, and Lackey just gave opposing fans a lot of material to use when they play on the road. I can see some guy dressing up like Colonel Sanders and taunting them with buckets of fried chicken. Maybe Chik-fil-A could sponser a giveaway night and get the whole crowd to to chant “Eat Mor Chikin” while one of these guys is trying to pitch. Lots of possiblities here…..

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Oct 13, 2011 4:02 PM EDT reply actions  

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