The Brewers Did the Right Thing
Right now, the Milwaukee Brewers might look like horrible failures. Haha they just lost to the Cardinals in six games! They got blown out at home in an elimination game! This is understandable, but it is an immediate emotional response and an overreaction. They won the NL Central, won an NLDS series, and won two games in the NLCS. They were six wins from a World Series title. Their big 2011 gamble paid off. They could have gone 79-83 and gone down in flames, to be sure, but they did not.
Last night, there was an undercurrent of discussion to the effect of: the Brewers have a horrible farm system because of the Greinke-Marcum trades and Greinke-Marcum sucked in the postseason, so LOL fail. The details of the Greinke-Marcum trades are quite fascinating, but I would like to respond, primarily to the argument centered around trading away prospects. Obviously, from the Royals perspective, there are multiple layers of relevance here.
- The purpose of a farm system is to help you reach the postseason and win a championship. A good farm system, in and off itself, is completely irrelevant to a Major League team.
- Greinke & Marcum helped the Brewers reach the postseason. While the Brewers could have conceivably made the playoffs without them (and a straight WAR subtraction suggests they would) given the fact that they would have quite likely replaced Greinke & Marcum with sub-replacement level starters, which could have had a cascade effect on the bullpen, etc. at the very least we can see that the last two weeks of the season would have played out very differently for Milwaukee.
- Farm systems can contribute by producing players directly or by providing trade currency. Greinke & Marcum were, effectively, products of the Brewer farm system. If you must be a farm system fetishist, Greinke & Marcum can work for you just the same. They were generated by shiny prospects.
Look, neither trade was perfect and both Greinke and Marcum were disappointments in October. That's fair.
I love the Greinke trade for the Brewers. They got a potential 6 or 7 WAR pitcher in bulk, for a handful of prospects and bit players. It is the kind of trade people propose on message boards and blogs all the time. The worst part of the trade was that Betancourt was included, which no one has ever really understood. Was he an NBA-style inclusion, an awful player who had to be included, or did the Brewers actually think he was positive value? The weird thing is, Yuni had some huge hits in the postseason, and the same usual awful defense. He was Yuni, but over the postseason sample, he may have been a positive. Cain and Escobar are all-defense players of unclear utility. Jeffress is a live arm and Odorizzi is a lottery ticket. The only player in the trade who has a chance of being as good as Zack Greinke is Odorizzi, and that will happen, if it happens at all, in 2014. The Royals got depth and got rid of a player who (supposedly) wanted out and was a bad clubhouse guy, and that was about it.
The Marcum trade is more complicated. Last off-season, the Brewers acquired Shaun Marcum from Toronto in exchange for Brett Lawrie. Marcum had a bad postseason, while Lawrie had an absolutely insane month and a half to end 2011. Lawrie hit .293/.373/.580. Toronto is slated to enjoy six more seasons of Lawrie's services, and there are reasonable odds that he will be an extremely valuable player for them over that span. His 2011 performance was delivered in an extremely small sample, but with his top prospect pedigree and the low risk associated with position player prospects, something like, in terms of WAR, a 2-3-5-5-6-6 win progression seems plausible. Marcum was basically a 3 Win player in 2011, and that would be a decent expectation going forward. The odd thing is, the Brewers could have used a competent 3B in 2011, but they felt that the overall shape of their team needed to be refitted. They wanted to give up some offense for starting pitching.
Lastly, the Brewers got two years each of Greinke/Marcum. These were not three month rentals.
Prospects are fun to talk about, because they always have the potential. It's fun to sit here as a Royals fan and imagine how awesome Odorizzi or whomever is going to be someday. Playing in two postseason series and cashing in on the end of the Braun-Fielder era is better. The Brewers have a poor farm system. Guess what? They have a good Major League team.
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good points, Will
you have a good farm system to build a good major league team, either by promotion, trades, or both. it makes no sense to have a great farm system and hoard the prospects like magic beans.
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
But I think the point is instructive for Royals fans
In the debate over whether to go for it in 2012. The Brewers, led by 2 proven MVP caliber position players and one good SP, were really only two SPs away from being the best team in their division.
Are the Royals sitting on a trio comparable to Braun, Fielder and Gallardo? I hope they are, but hope is all it is. I don’t know, especially on the pitching side. I don’t expect 2 of Gordon/Hosmer/Butler/Moustakas to mash like Braun and Fielder in 2012. If they are at midseason and there is a real shot, reevaluate the situation.
Obviously the Royals would have more left in the cupboard than the Brewers if made the equivalent of the Greinke and Marcum trades. But that doesn’t mean you make those deals without really knowing what you have at the major league level.
by thelaundry on Oct 17, 2011 12:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Marcum wasn't a good deal.
Not terrible. Not good though.
But I’m not a Marcum fan. Stuff isn’t good enough to sustain 2010 numbers.
by WURoyal on Oct 17, 2011 12:09 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The casual Brewers fans are probably sick over the Marcum deal.
I don’t hate it either way, but having Hairsston as the 3B is a liability. It surprises me that Yuni sucks more than him actually. OUr team would probably look alot different if the Brewers did the Greinke deal first…
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Oct 17, 2011 12:20 PM EDT reply actions
It surprises me
They couldn’t find anything out on the trade market better than Hairston. I get their farm system is depleted, but there had to be someone out there.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
And it's not like the Brewers are now option-less
They still have a great team on the books for next year, and could make a couple moves to go for it again. Based on current rosters (taking Pujols and Fielder out) I think they might be the favorites in the NL central next year.
Option B : they could rebuild by moving some of their SPs through trades this offseason or next July.
Ehhh, with Wainwright back I think you have to give the nod to the Cards
Re-signing Berkman, finding a serviceable bullpen, plus the emergence of several solid options in Jay, Freese, and Allen Craig.
Definitely like the Cards if they re-sign Furcal (which is almost a certainty, IMO, if they lose Albert).
by WURoyal on Oct 17, 2011 2:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
not saying the Brewers fan base is gonna get desperate but
there is at least one guy who suggested replacing Prince Fielder with Clint Robinson
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I think, as Royals fans, our view of the farm system is skewed
We’ve suffered such bad teams for so long that Royals fans automatically assume that whoever is in the fame system is inherently better than a player at the major league level. Fans keep calling for the likes of David Lough and Clint Robinson to play when, in fact, they aren’t any improvements over what we have here. Even the Kilamonster—who the Royals misandled for sure, yes—has proven to not be at all close to the talent level that we assigned him.
So, naturally, Royals fans look at the Brewers’ farm system and scoff. Well, the Brewers have done twice within the last decade what the Royals haven’t been able to do for the last almost 30 years. Advantage Brewers.
Good points
We’ve suffered such bad teams for so long that Royals fans automatically assume that whoever is in the fame system is inherently better than a player at the major league level
This also goes for the Chiefs and quarterbacks/back up quarterbacks.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Fans of bad teams almost always seem to have that issue
with their quarterbacks. The devil you don’t know is better than the devil you do know.
I do remember seeing Rich Gannon come off the bench and totally outshine Steve Bono when I was very young, so it’s skewed for me, too.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Oct 18, 2011 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Gannon Looked Great
Until he threw the horrible interception. Every time.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 18, 2011 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Give it a look.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
Whoops, link didn't show up properly.
http://www.royalsreview.com/2011/10/17/2495862/the-brewers-did-the-right-thing-why-cant-the-royals
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
couldn't agree with this more
two wins from the World Series seems like a pretty good outcome for the Brewers. their GM has a little bit of work to do this winter, but he showed he can be creative last winter.
Also, if the FA comp picks stay more or less the same,
the Brewers will at least get a 1st round and a supplemental pick, maybe two first round picks if Marcum can sustain success.
So the Brewers actually traded “prospect Odorizzi” for “future prospect Odorizzi”
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Oct 17, 2011 12:46 PM EDT reply actions
if Marcum's price is low enough post playoffs
then go for it..
sure, as a 30 year old pitcher, the level of his performance will hold-even or go-down. But he’d be the best pitcher in the rotation and his price wouldn’t be any lower than it is now.
Provided that Marcum’s arm isn’t toast or something
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Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
The Royals got depth and got rid of a player who (supposedly) wanted out and was a bad clubhouse guy, and that was about it.
There is no supposedly about it.
the main supposedly is
the matter of how much did he want out before the Royals started shopping him. It’s a great spin to shop someone for months, then when he wants a resolution to the situation, blame him for wanting out. (Coincidentally, the two only two teams to express interest could have met in the World Series)
It’s like blaming one side entirely for a divorce, when that’s rarely ever the case.
I will note that there’s not exactly any reason for the Royals fans to trash talk any playoff team. Considering that there’s still a solid shot that Zack Greinke will have played more games in the playoffs than Alcides Escobar when their times in baseball end.
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by BHWick on Oct 17, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
how were the brewers going to play the nats in the world series?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Oct 17, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
DM told me, in the same room, that Greinke got 2 offers
Milwaukee and Texas
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a bad clubhouse guy
And the Brewers success with him shows how much that matters.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Oct 17, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
The problem with Zack and the clubhouse
was his refusal to eat fried chicken, drink beer, and play video games with Gallardo and Marcum when all three were off.
Or was the problem that they did do it?
I can’t keep it straight.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
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Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Oct 17, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 17, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Had Greinke had stayed in KC and pitched the way he did in 2010,
the Royals would have gotten nothing for him. If Greinke would have accepted the Nationals trade offer, would the Royals be in a better position moving forward?
by royal_in_cincinnati on Oct 17, 2011 1:25 PM EDT reply actions
Not quite right
We’d still have the option of trading Greinke this winter, and he’d still has significant value, although not as much as last winter. We’d also have the option of trading Greinke in July. We’d also have the option of holding onto Greinke (after all, we are looking for an ace this winter), and taking draft pick compensation when he leaves – or signing him to an extension if he was amenable.
As for the Nats deal, I believe it was Danny Espinosa (3.5 WAR this year), P Jordan Zimmerman (3.4 WAR), and P Drew Storen (0.9 WAR) with possibly OF Michael Burgess as well so yea, it was better.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Catcher Derrick Norris
Wasn’t he rumored to be the 4th piece?
There were lots of rumors
I think it was Heyman who reported Espinosa, Zimmerman, Storen and a minor leaguer, and I’m assuming it wasn’t a guy as good as Norris. Maybe it was.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Would of loved that trade.
Better than what we got from the Brewers for sure.
actually
Greinke may have pitched worse in 2011 than 2010
But you know, STRIKEOUTTTTTZZZZZ… so he’s obviously more awesome than ever
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not saying they're bad
but it’s essentially the entire Greinke defense for people who don’t blame everything bad to happen to Greinke on the Milwaukee defense.
1.6 bbrefWAR over 28 starts in 2011 after 2.3 bbrefWAR in 33 starts in 2010. Or in fWAR, 5.1 in 2010 and 3.9 in 2011.
So the Greinke that allegedly autopiloted half of 2010 was better than the Greinke on a contending team?
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Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
He quit on both the Royals and the Brewers
In fact, in every season that he didn’t win the CY award, he quit on his team. He’s a quitter. Hates baseball too. And Kansas City.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Oct 17, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
he quit every year
I hear he refused to pitch every 5 days after the season ended. Quitter.
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Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
And then by October he quit pitching altogether for like months
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Oct 17, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Well the "autopilot" crowd was always on shaky ground.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
IIRC, Lawire is supposed to be a terrible defender too
So he would have fit right in.
Great points all around. I think in part it is why I don’t mind so much cashing in some of these prospects for a SP now, provided he is here for at least three more seasons. I guess we all agree on that, its just a matter of whether we should do it this winter or next.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
I'm sure it's pretty easy, tons of team would be willing to trade a young, cheap ace
for, say, Christian Colon, Jarrod Dyson, Chris Dwyer, and Tim Collins.
I’d just be worried that’s too much to give up.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
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by Matt Klaassen on Oct 17, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Depending on who that "young, cheap ace" is, I might take that in a second.
No one has a tremendous ceiling on that list I remember Goldstein saying scouts were saying Herrera is a “55” guy, and Dwyer is a “50” with control issues. If you can sell him as a part of a good deal—awesome. Collins, even with better control, doesn’t seem dominant. Dyson’s speed is really fun to watch, but the bat will frustrate into a 4th OF. Colon is 22 and has a sub-.700 OPS in AA.
None of these guys are dead in the water, but they are all easy sells for me. 2 WAR players at their peak.
Ummm
He’s joking. Those four are not going to come close to getting a “young, cheap ace.” For anyone to give up an 1) ace, who is indeed 2) young and 3) cheap (if anyone would, which is unlikely to the point of non-existent) the Royals would have to give up at least one of the highest upside in-the-majors-or-close guys they have, like Hosmer or Moose, which defeats the entire purpose. To get an ace, you’ve got to 1) develop your own, 2) pay a ton of money, or 3) bundle high-end prospects in July for a guy with a year or so left on his contract and see if you can resign him. That’s it.
What the Royals might be able to do with the above prospects is get a solid-yet-unspectacular innings-eating relatively cost-controlled third starter. Yay.
It's all ball bearings these days!
by CentralChamps20?? on Oct 17, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Dyson provides us with the infield singles
Best Farm System EVER
by tiquanunderwear on Oct 17, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
look
it was impossible to get a Brett Lawrie for one of our guys. After all, he wasn’t a shortstop, centerfielder or a pitcher. Much like how all those good Beltran offers had to be turned down since they weren’t a 3rd baseman, catcher, and pitcher.
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Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
I Still Don't
Know who Mike Wood is, but his B-R comparables are outstanding.
1.Doug Waechter (980)
2.Gary Knotts (980)
3.Slick Coffman (978)
4.Doug Linton (978)
5.Frank Gabler (978)
6.George Grant (977)
7.Rocky Coppinger (976)
8.Sun-Woo Kim (976)
9.George Murray (975)
10.Joe Slusarski
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 17, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately
I remember the Doug Linton Era in KC all too well.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Waechter was a beast
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 17, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
The Brewers offseason moves we a complete and utter failure.
Saying that the did the right thing is absolutely incorrect.
If they had stayed pat and signed Bruce Chan and Jeff Francis, they would have been 1.7 WAR higher even if Cain did nothing for them. They now have lost Cain, Lowrie, Escobar for 15 cost controlled years, have no fiancial flexibiliy and will bleed all thier talent away due to lack of money. It was stupid when they made the deals, and its stupid now.
Go Royals!
a complete and utter failure
did the Royals go to the ALCS while the Brewers won 71 games or something?
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Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
They would have won more games without Grienke and Marcum then with them and spent
about 35 million (7 more wins) more to do it. That is an epic fail.
Go Royals!
they still went to the NLCS this year and the goal of the moves was to get the playoffs in fielder's walk year
i don’t see how making moves to build a playoff team, and reaching that goal is an epic fail. now, maybe they should’ve kept lawrie and the bag of meh they traded to the royals, and traded fielder instead. but, isn’t it nice to go for the win now when you can?
are there any guys out there who would have added those 7 wins?
or 5 wins according to BBRef
Keeping in mind that Chen/Francis is 2.6 WAR combined, with Chen giving you 2.6 of 2.6 there.
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Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
Francis has more WAR in Fangraphs model
What accounts for that?
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Each win is worth 5 million, and the Brewers wasted a lot of money.
Francis and Chen were worth 4.7 fWAR, combine that with the 1.5 WAR they lost to playing Yunie, and the over two WAR they lost to playing Mcgehee., plus whatever they would have gotten from Cain and that equals…
FAIL
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Oct 17, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you seem caught up in the money aspect here, so here's what this season did for the bottom line
The Brewers averaged 3640 more fans per game this season than in 2010. That equals 294,840 new tickets sold. Their average ticket price was $22.10, the lowest in baseball, which means on tickets alone, the Brewers brought in 6,604,416 more revenue than last year. Add in six sold out playoff games, with a average ticket price of $31, and thats another 7,793,400 in new revenue that they didn’t see last year. So all together, they saw a new revenue of 14,397,816 in just tickets alone this year. This doesn’t account for all the other revenue seen from the 546,240 new ticket sales this year. Long term, the move did nothing to damage them monetarily, in fact it made them money this year, and potentially in the future with the good will of a postseason run. It was a great business move.
by BeauJackson on Oct 17, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
So your saying if they won more games but did not have Grienke or Marcum no one would have
shown up to the games. Sorry, you can’t prove that one.
Go Royals!
where is this idea that they would've won more games without greinke and marcum coming from? how can you prove that?
all i’m saying is that fan expectations and excitement was raised by the acquisitions of greinke and marcum. and with their presence on the team they went to the NLCS while also adding 14.39M in revenue just from ticket sales alone. color me skeptical that the fans would’ve been exicted about the additions of chen/francis, and that the brewers with those two guys instead of greinke/marcum would’ve gone to the NLCS.
by BeauJackson on Oct 17, 2011 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That's just what the numbers say.
They show that Chen+Francis+Escobar+Lowrie were more valuable then Grienke+Marcum+Yunie+McGehee, and much cheaper as well.
Go Royals!
by BabyBlues on Oct 18, 2011 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm the last person to get into this fight,
but isn’t including Lawrie in this a little premature? That’s a really small sample size and I seem to remember the Brewers record being something like 17-3 in home games where Zaq pitched. That’s strong. Also, didn’t they already have McGehee?
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Oct 18, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
I think it is an awesome idea to construct a team lineup for 2011 by waiting for the 2011 season to be over, then adding up a bunch of random dudes WAR and proclaiming their season a failure for not getting THAT lineup. Jeff Effing Francis? A search of BCB results in zero stories on Jeff Mondaythroughfriday Francis. But I suppose you would counter that they should’ve been looking at him, since now we know the difference in WAR between 2 cherry picked groups. Re: money and Mr. Betancourt. I think we can all agree that it would be a better move to just put a briefcase with $4 million in it out at SS. Or a $45 couch.
awww luck
the concept that all pitchers should have the same results based off of a few factors… the great booster to the hopes of pitchers who aren’t very good.
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Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
Brett Lawrie
You didn’t really take a close look at his numbers did you. Yep, he got off to a very fast start but then the pitchers caught up to him and his numbers fell like a rock. So to think he’s going to put up similar type numbers(293/373/580) next season isn’t a likely scenario.
So you're saying he's trending badly?
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by Scott McKinney on Oct 18, 2011 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Badly
Well, he hit .171 over the last 10 games before an injury put him out for the year. I don’t exactly see that as an up swing.
He'll Go As
Far as duct tape and 40s will take him. Needz moar tatz.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 18, 2011 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How meaningful is data over 10 games?
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by Scott McKinney on Oct 18, 2011 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions
VERY IMPORTANT
Yours truly,
Luke Hochevar, Chris Dwyer and Mike Montgomery
by thelaundry on Oct 18, 2011 10:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
10 games
I prefer to look at 3 years worth of numbers and lots of video myself. But since, Lawrie only played in 43 games, the last 10 do tell us “something”. He got off to a hot start which is not all that unusual. Then the adjustments began and his production fell off rather dramatically. I would be more impressed if he had hit .200 the first three weeks and .400 the next three rather than the other way around. This would have shown he was the one making the positive adjustments. 43 games does not tell me much, except I like his range, arm and speed, and I think he will hit next year, just not 293/373/580. If he plays 140+ games next year I would look more for an OPS around 800 not 950+. But I was wrong once and it could happen again someday.





















