Christian Colon, SS, Royals. I saw a series of unimpressive plate appearances in which he was just...

Christian Colon, SS, Royals. I saw a series of unimpressive plate appearances in which he was just flipping the bat at the ball. In the Futures Game, he did finally drive a ball for a long out to left-center, but in general, he looked like a disappointment. He also didn't seem to have a shortstop's speed or body. He didn't look 6'1" or 180 pounds, and not in a good way in either case. There's a clue at the plate; I just don't know if the Royals can count on him developing into a major-league shortstop, and if Colon has to play second base, he's not clearly better than Johnny Giovatella. Colon, by the way, is 16 months older than Tim Beckham.

Joe Sheehan sharing random thoughts from Arizona

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in which he was just flipping the bat at the ball.

Someone keep Jason Kendall away from this kid.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 10, 2011 5:05 PM EST reply actions

I was thinking something similar....

Gritty veteran catchers call this “bat control”.

Sooooo, I guess this means we can look forward to Colon as our future #2 hitter?

Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau

by aHorseWithNoName on Nov 10, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Colon blows

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 10, 2011 5:08 PM EST reply actions

TWSS

Obviously, you are not a golfer.

by Kyled85 on Nov 10, 2011 9:04 PM EST up reply actions

Super Colon Blow

by spamiam79 on Nov 10, 2011 10:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions

Yeesh

But I take some exception to the “clearly not better than Giavotella” statement.

Gia hasn’t proven he can hit or defend, but there’s reason to be optimistic about his hitting. Colon has proven he can hit or defend, but there’s reason to be optimistic about his defense.

Colon will be two months older than Gia was when he first made it to AA. I think there is a lot of reason to be concerned, but it’s not worth giving up yet.

I thought I saw that both Colon and Myers will start in AA again.

by WURoyal on Nov 10, 2011 5:38 PM EST reply actions

Can you please explain what reason there is to be optimistic about Colon's defense?

I agree, no reason to even be close to giving up on Colon (or Gia for that matter), but I don’t see much to be positive about either. Mediocre bat and reports of mediocre defense.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 10, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions

mediocre at short generally means pretty damn good at 2b

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 10, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions

He specifically said he's not clearly better than Johnny G. if playing 2nd base.

It’s just his opinion, I’m not saying it’s a fact. Just saying I don’t know why anyone just assumes he is going to be any good with the glove. Maybe he will, maybe we won’t. There are conflicting reports apparently.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 10, 2011 8:40 PM EST up reply actions

I watched the Future's Game

He looked pretty smooth to me. Only one play was rangey, but he looked pretty good. I rarely get that feeling from Johnny G., and I like him.

I agree with Sheehan on his body and his approach at the plate, though.

by dejezeus on Nov 10, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions

That's the thing about judging defense based on just your eyes.

Unbelievably unreliable, I think. That goes for both “normal” fans and scouts, I think. I mean, how do you put into words the difference between the range of Alcides Escobar and Jose Reyes. Can anyone actually do it? To me, scouting reports on defense are just so unreliable that I don’t think anything can be judged about a player’s defense until he plays in the majors for a while.

Colon’s defense might be good, but it might not. Not sure any scouting reports can confirm anything.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 10, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions

Scouting reports have some value

Certainly, you are correct about range. But as much as we make fun of “plus hands”, it is possible to observe it. It is possible to observe many other things about fielding such as throwing accuracy, throwing power, reflexes, angles to ball (even in the infield), technique, consistency, and in general, whether they are making plays easily or with hardship. These are things that may show up over a long period of time with UZR or +/-, but no chance with prospects or amateurs. So I suppose it depends on what the scouting report is talking about. But when Joe Sheehan is making comments about Christian Colon’s body and how that affects his range, I’m not even going to acknowledge that.

by hawkinscm87 on Nov 10, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah I don't mean to say scouting reports are useless...I just think so many different people can see different things and come up with different conclusions.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 10, 2011 11:40 PM EST up reply actions

Preconceived Notions Play

A big part in the evaluations of “eyes” guys, and I say this as an old eyes guy. I find the metrics often confirm what I see, but there are a lot of exceptions.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 10, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions

without getting into this particular debate about Colon

I think that it is uncontroversial that there is a difference between the evaluation of an individual fan based on what is seen and the evaluation of a professional scout based on what is seen.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
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Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 11, 2011 8:56 AM EST up reply actions

I think you mean

it should be uncontroversial. Based on reading years and years of comments, some individual fans certainly disagree that there is a difference .

by Gopherballs on Nov 11, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions

fair enough

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 11, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions

also don't want to come off as dismissing the visual reports of fans

especially groups of fans, just pointing to the obvious difference between the average fan and the average pro scout.

Nothing against Joe Sheehan, but while he’s watched a lot of baseball, I think he’s closer to the former than the latter.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 11, 2011 2:24 PM EST up reply actions

Oh no, I completely agree

I was attempting to make a point in joke form that some fans will dismiss even the professional scouting opinion if it contradicts their own stated opinion or negatively evaluates some aspect of their favorite prospect or favorite team’s prospect.

by Gopherballs on Nov 11, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions

So in this case, we're talking about a fan.

Okay, I’m glad he’s formed an opinion on Christian Colon, however, I don’t respect his opinion. Just like if Joe Posnanski gave me his opinion of a player after watching him play one game—I wouldn’t give it much weight. Although, obviously, anybody can observe certain things (like if he sailed it over the first basemen 3 times in 1 game).

by hawkinscm87 on Nov 11, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions

Reports this year say Colon looks capable of staying at SS. The reports are what we have to go on defensively.

by WURoyal on Nov 11, 2011 1:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions

Scouts have always liked his glove and general consistency, even in college

The questions have been his range and arm strength. I can’t think of any report I’ve read where they complained about his fielding ability, just his range.

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 11, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions

Yep, and the consensus is he's such a good fielder in terms of positioning, anticipation, etc.

That he makes up for that lack of speed.

by WURoyal on Nov 11, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions

I don't put much stock in Sheehan's evaluation here.

Especially because more qualified evaluators differ from him on this one.

by hawkinscm87 on Nov 10, 2011 5:46 PM EST reply actions

do they?

by Freneau on Nov 10, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions

For one-can't remember where else I read something like it.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/10/15/2490676/kansas-city-royals-top-20-prospects-for-2012

by hawkinscm87 on Nov 10, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions

people seem to think he'll be able to hit - well enough to play SS, anyways

I haven’t found any post-2011 scouting reports, though, except Pine Tar Press, where the good news was basically limited to how much heart he put into his play. (Sickels has a brief note, but it seems based on numbers, which as he says were “disappointing”.)

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 10, 2011 7:12 PM EST up reply actions

Oh, and Sickels said this:

9) Christian Colon, SS, Grade B-: Very solid glove, and I have not given up on the bat yet. High contact rate is a good marker and I think he can remain at shortstop.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/10/15/2490676/kansas-city-royals-top-20-prospects-for-2012

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 10, 2011 7:13 PM EST up reply actions

I'm no expert on who is better than who when it comes to these rankings?

What reason is there to believe Sickels’ opinion as opposed to Sheehan’s opinion? Seems to me that people are just going to accept the opinion that they already thought themselves and dismiss the opinion that they disagrees with their preformed opinion.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 10, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions

I think you're right - without a LOT of reading and finding

which scouts you think you can trust, and what about their evaluations you can trust, it’s hard to know one report from another.

The problem with Sheehan’s report above is that it was just one viewing, so we want to find some other opinions to see if they jive. And something about “just flipping the bat at the ball” sounds like an odd thing to say – was he struggling, was he not into it?

Personally, I trust Sickels with Royals prospects b/c he is closer to them (literally, living in Kansas) and he is generally a tougher grader. But at the same time, it helps with Sickels to know that a lot of his scouting info is stat-based, which isn’t a bad thing, but being able to tell when he’s seen a guy (or when someone whose opinion he trusts has seen a guy) and when he’s simply relying on numbers (out of necessity, I don’t blame him) is important to interpreting his reports.

And that’s just Sickels – Schaum or Sheehan have their own quirks, and I know less about Sheehan than either of the other two. Schaum, for instance, gets criticism for letting “heart” cloud his reports – sure, I want to know if a guy plays hard and is a hard worker, but that’s less important than if he has quick hands, or good range, or command of his changeup – but I still trust what he says in general.

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 11, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions

As for the "throwing the bat", DickHowser4ever does a better job explaining it below

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 11, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions

Baseball America has to be considered the gold standard

BA has been around forever, has resources beyond just one guy watching games and talking to his contacts, has writers following every minor league in every part of the country, has editors, has writers with contacts with each organization and likely multiple levels within most organizations (not just scouts, but their supervisors, minor league personnel, and front office personnel), has its writers pool their information as a way to cross-check scouting reports, and is not tied to just following one organization, so there is greater perspective and less of a potential issue with their access to information suddenly drying up if they make an organization unhappy.

BA is certainly not going to be perfect (especially in an industry based on subjective opinions), but the infromation in the scouting reports will be discussed and vetted before they are published.

by Gopherballs on Nov 11, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions

this is very important, and something hard for individual scouts to do

pool their information as a way to cross-check scouting reports

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 11, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions

true

although every MLB organization employs cross-checkers to provide second and third opinions

by Gopherballs on Nov 11, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions

Not asking as a leading question... Don't know

But does anyone like Colon at this point? All I can recall is that initially he was praised as the ultimate gamer and leader and a miaster of positioning. I think Goldstein said that the one time I tried to listen to his podcast

by Freneau on Nov 10, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions

i do....

as a slightly above average 2b and im not going to jump off the bandwagon after his first full season like many did here with hosmer…another season like this and we’ll talk

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 10, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions

^^^ This ^^^

by BeauJackson on Nov 10, 2011 8:35 PM EST up reply actions

Wasn't Hosmer's poor season easily explained by the fact that he couldn't see the ball b/c of his vision problems?

Does Colon have an excuse like that one? No, we shouldn’t jump off the bandwagon, but we shouldn’t just dismiss all the negative signs right now. I don’t see any positive signs. Poor offensive numbers for 2nd season in a row and conflicting reports on his defense, and he’s not THAT young. Age 23 season next year…he really needs a good year next year.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 10, 2011 8:44 PM EST up reply actions

and his wrist was effed up

by dooblay on Nov 10, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions

?

when?

Scouting the Royals
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by 306008 on Nov 11, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions

I think it was Hosmer's Thumb, if that's what you are talking about.

I don’t remember Colon having an injury problem this season.

by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 11, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions

Hosmer fought Thomas Jones in the locker room, right?

by WURoyal on Nov 11, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions

Hosmer vs TJ would be a good fight.

Apparantly Tj vs Baldwin was not. How the heck do you miss like 8 weeks of practice/games after a lockerroom fight?

by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 11, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions

No offense to Jesus,

but Hosmer vs TJ would probably turn out ugly for The Hos. TJ has what we refer to in the medical community as Grown Man Strength.

Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so.-Bertrand Russell

by Dr. van Strijcker on Nov 11, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions

Hosmer has the reach though. TJ and his stumpy tree trunk arms might have an issue if he can't get inside.

HAHA.

by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 11, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions

Delaware has no contact lense or glasses places

by Freneau on Nov 10, 2011 10:20 PM EST up reply actions

I'm pretty sure this has been corroborated.

by hawkinscm87 on Nov 10, 2011 10:24 PM EST up reply actions

Corrugated, Too

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 10, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions

Does that have to do with cardboard?

by hawkinscm87 on Nov 10, 2011 11:33 PM EST up reply actions

And Roofing

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 10, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions

Colon is a little older, but are they being too aggressive with his assignments?

Starting him in High A for a short season, then moving him directly to AA. Seems a little quick, doesn’t it? College prospects seem to have different promotion curves, don’t they?

by royal_in_cincinnati on Nov 11, 2011 9:30 AM EST up reply actions

I thought that.

Scouting the Royals
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by 306008 on Nov 11, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions

This

I don’t love the guy and I’d certainly dangle him as trade bait but I’ve seen prospects turn it around.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 11, 2011 8:47 AM EST up reply actions

People seem to like him even though he has not shown the ability to hit as a pro, statistically

But for whatever reason, no one has written him off (that I can think of). As Retro said – and I think many others agree – I am not sold at all, and would be perfectly happy trading him off for a more relevant piece.

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 11, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions

i feel like i just read something positive about colon at project prospect...no time to look right now though...

must get drunk while tolbert rushes for 4 tds

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 10, 2011 8:25 PM EST reply actions

Possibly...

I think he wrote e has elite contact skills… Or something like that

by Freneau on Nov 10, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions

that partnered with good defense makes a good player

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 10, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions

Just saying he has good defense doesn't mean he actually plays good defense.

He’s got 1 1/2 seasons worth of pretty shitty hitting. You have to admit that there’s a lot more to dislike than like right now. Hopefully he rebounds next year.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 10, 2011 8:42 PM EST up reply actions

Elite Contact Skills With Good Defense

Equals Chris Getz.

by WestCoastRoyal on Nov 10, 2011 9:36 PM EST up reply actions

Check the Age 22 AA Numbers

I know Colon may be a better defender than Getz, and probably has a bit more power, but those numbers are pretty darn close.

by WestCoastRoyal on Nov 10, 2011 9:39 PM EST up reply actions

the horror

by BeauJackson on Nov 10, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions

and then Getz busted out in AAA

by dooblay on Nov 10, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions

Didn't we already know this?

He’s been an afterthought of a shortstop, or even an MLB-ready 2b from the get-go.

I was always under the assumption that he was a “safe”/ineffectual draft pick.

I didn’t like that pick from the start….for this reason.

Am I alone?

"On the last day of your life, don't forget to die."

- David Berman

by Crooow on Nov 11, 2011 12:11 AM EST reply actions

no

but after being picked the Royals started getting lauded for having the best system ever, so a) it wasnt a big deal and b) Moore et al got the benfit of the doubt

by Freneau on Nov 11, 2011 12:12 AM EST up reply actions

We weren't in a great situation that draft

As I recall, that was the year of Bryce Harper. But there wasn’t much talent behind him in the draft. We were expected to take Yasmani Grandal, or perhaps Chris Sale if not. The Colon pick came out of the blue.

Sale might have been a better pick, Grandal probably wasn’t, but either way I can’t fault Moore for drafting Colon. Our system has pretty much nothing in the way of SS prospects.

by moregritplease on Nov 11, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions

wrong

grandal would have been a better pick

by 9il on Nov 11, 2011 2:23 AM EST up reply actions

Grandal was seen as a pretty big reach

And IIRC, a lot of people here were upset with the rumor that the Royals were targeting him.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 11, 2011 8:48 AM EST up reply actions

I don't remember that at all.

I remember people being pretty excited about picking him because he was a switch hitting catcher and we had no compelling reason to believe Sal Perez would hit.

by hawkinscm87 on Nov 11, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah everyone was a reach at 4

It’s just a travesty we weren’t a little worse that year because the talent after Machado just wasn’t there.

I do think we might have taken Zach Lee if we knew he’d sign for 5 Million though.

by WURoyal on Nov 11, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions

This is a guy who BA had as their number 51 (I think) prospect before the season

And everything I’ve heard recently has been positive in the field. The average and power aren’t there. Some of that could be his BABIP. Some of the reason for his low BABIP could be that he’s not hitting the ball very hard.

Increased his walk rate and decreased his SO rate at AA. Not completely terrible in the AFL. He needs to hit much better this year, but the elite contact hitter report is definitely out there. And as far as the throwing the bat at the ball criticism, I’ve seen Damon have a lot of success with that approach. I’m not saying its the best approach, but there is a place for bloop hitters, especially bloop hitters who are good second basemen (a position where any good hitter is an all star).

by WURoyal on Nov 11, 2011 1:35 AM EST via mobile reply actions

saw Colon play this year for NW Ark a few times....

i would confirm Sheehans assesment on his batting. when i saw him he didn’t look comfortable in the batteres box and was not driving the bathead to the ball. more like just throwing his hands at it. his batting was very much subpar. his defense was fine, although his throws to 1B weren’t particularly strong, and he seemed to throw off balance more than he needed too. of course, this is my report based on 3-4 games, so its too small a sample to make any decisions from.

anyway….thats just my opinion….i could be wrong.

by DickHowser4ever on Nov 11, 2011 8:45 AM EST reply actions

3-4 games is better than 1.

by hawkinscm87 on Nov 11, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions

i'd agree

Colon’s bat looked different from Wilmington when I saw him 2 years ago and last year. I think as the year progressed he got into some bad habits and had some mental issues with confidence. His bat early looked better than his bat late. I saw him a few times through out the season as well….

Scouting the Royals
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by 306008 on Nov 11, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions