Alex Gordon Gets Three 10th Place MVP Votes
by Jeff Zimmerman on Nov 21, 2011 2:27 PM EST
in Kansas City Royals News
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PrintCongratulations.
Here is how the voting went.
| Player, Team | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | 9th | 10th | Points |
| Justin Verlander, Detroit Tigers | 13 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 280 | |||
| Jacoby Ellsbury, Boston Red Sox | 4 | 13 | 4 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 242 | |||
| Jose Bautista, Toronto Blue Jays | 5 | 7 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 231 | |
| Curtis Granderson, New York Yankees | 3 | 4 | 4 | 8 | 6 | 1 | 2 | 215 | |||
| Miguel Cabrera, Detroit Tigers | 2 | 9 | 5 | 5 | 2 | 4 | 1 | 193 | |||
| Robinson Cano, New York Yankees | 2 | 2 | 3 | 6 | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 112 | ||
| Adrian Gonzalez, Boston Red Sox | 1 | 1 | 2 | 6 | 8 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 105 | ||
| Michael Young, Texas Rangers | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 7 | 4 | 2 | 96 |
| Dustin Pedroia, Boston Red Sox | 4 | 1 | 4 | 6 | 48 | ||||||
| Evan Longoria, Tampa Bay Rays | 2 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 27 | ||||||
| Ian Kinsler, Texas Rangers | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 25 | |||||
| Alex Avila, Detroit Tigers | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 13 | ||||||
| Paul Konerko, Chicago White Sox | 5 | 1 | 11 | ||||||||
| CC Sabathia, New York Yankees | 2 | 10 | |||||||||
| Adrian Beltre, Texas Rangers | 2 | 1 | 1 | 9 | |||||||
| Ben Zobrist, Tampa Bay Rays | 1 | 1 | 7 | ||||||||
| Victor Martinez, Detroit Tigers | 1 | 1 | 2 | 7 | |||||||
| James Shields, Tampa Bay Rays | 1 | 5 | 7 | ||||||||
| Mark Teixeira, New York Yankees | 1 | 1 | 5 | ||||||||
| Asdrubal Cabrera, Cleveland Indians | 1 | 2 | 4 | ||||||||
| Alex Gordon, Kansas City Royals | 3 | 3 | |||||||||
| Josh Hamilton, Texas Rangers | 1 | 1 | |||||||||
| David Robertson, New York Yankees | 1 | 1 |
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21st!
Congratulations, Alex. You’ve won a $20 gift certificate to your third favorite KC area BBQ restaurant (to be used Mon-Thurs before 6pm).
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 21, 2011 2:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
*
*for use only on checks larger than $100 and not applicable for drinks or food or merchandise.
by billexgordler on Nov 21, 2011 4:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
DAVID ROBERTSON?!?!!?!
PAUL KONERKO?!?!?!?!?!?
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 21, 2011 2:34 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Robertson
First name that jumped out at me. Zah?
You probably don't remember me as Settles7thYearofEligibility.
by Mike Brownlee on Nov 21, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
IIRC
By many metrics he was the most valuable AL reliever. I could be wrong about that.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 21, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
hmmmmmm
I dont care how well he did, a reliever should never be mentioned as a possibility for MVP. Just ridiculous
Cap it, and watch the players association strike it. http://budtheclark.mlblogs.com/
One of the writers that voted for Alex Gordon
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/11/explaining_my_m.html
- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …
His explanation is pretty awful:
10. Alex Gordon (Royals): Once I decided I could not in good faith vote for a third Red Sox player or another Yankee or Tiger, I looked for the next best player I had not voted for and settled on Gordon, who had a 6.9 WAR.
In other words, he didn’t know off the top of his head of any decent players that didn’t play in the AL East or on a playoff-team
Cheers for using WAR
Jeers for deciding only playoff teams….and Boston should have worthy MVP candidates.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Wow
What else do these guys have to do in the offseason that leaves them so little time to do actual analysis? I can think of few other jobs where people actually brag about how lazy their work is.
Its great that Poz sits down and laboriously goes over his HOF vote and MVP votes
And its shocking that no one else seems to spend more than five minutes thinking about it.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 21, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
what a joke
I don’t know whether to be more angry the explanation or just be happy someone remembered Alex existed.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 21, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Are you angry with Chen getting no votes?
by Andrew Kane on Nov 21, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I was furious, but I burned that rage-ahol during the Cy Young announcement
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 21, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Also screw Michael Young
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 21, 2011 2:35 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Michael Young was 8th in WAR...
on the Texas Rangers!… and 8th in VOTING in the AL MVP. The writers who put Young on ANY of their ballots should have their voting privileges revoked. Morons.
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
by setupunchtag on Nov 21, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
LOL
In September, some Detroit fan had a “Martinez for MVP” sign. I couldn’t believe it. He was no better than 4th on his own team, by most metrics!
Some things are not worth getting worked up about – unenlightened people (including many sportscasters and sports writers) tend to STAY unenlightened. Unfortunate part is they tend to influence the lazy portion of the fan base – those unable or unwilling to think for themselves…
If strikeouts are indeed fascist - then find me some starters that believe in fascism
A discussion by the members of Fangraphs came up with:
drop if AVG<.300
drop if RBI<100
drop if team_made_playoffs=0
drop if name=“Robinson Cano”
drop if name=“Miguel Cabrera”
=>
MVP=Michael Young
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by Jeff Zimmerman on Nov 21, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
and we will see you tomorrow night
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 21, 2011 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
Michael Young finally getting his due
by BeauJackson on Nov 21, 2011 2:37 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I don't get the 1st place vote
Pick the player with the highest BA and then see who has the most SBs
There is no way to justify Young being better than Gonzalez or Cabrera.
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by Jeff Zimmerman on Nov 21, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Also, the only player to get a vote for each place.
At least most were clustered around 8th place
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by Jeff Zimmerman on Nov 21, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Funny how the white, media-accessible singles hitter
Gets MVP cred despite whining last winter that he wanted to be traded.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 21, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
The only things Alex Gordon did better than Robinson Cano this season
where hit, play defense, and run the bases.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 21, 2011 2:40 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
RBIzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Baby
-Harold Reynolds
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by Jeff Zimmerman on Nov 21, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
the other better thing Cano did was
play for the Yankees
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
or even "were"
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 21, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
It Was Joycean
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 21, 2011 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
looks like pretty severe West coast bias
there weren't any Mariners on that list!
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
CHONE FIGGINS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 21, 2011 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
God damn hippies, cut your hair
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 21, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Of the top five that received MVP votes, who would you rather have on your team?
I’d take Miguel Cabrera over Verlander.
HOMER
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 21, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
fangraphs...
actually ranks Sabathia and five position players ahead of Verlander. I like Verlander, but he shouldn’t have won the MVP.
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
This MVP award
Should really be given retroactively to Pedro Martinez for 1999 because that seems to be what voters are apologizing for.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Ryan is outraged that Alex Gordon go more votes than Jeff Francoeur.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
Well deserved by Verlander.
Honestly it’s irrelevant to me whether or not Gordon got MVP votes. He wasn’t an MVP canidate. He had a damn good year, but not MVP calliber. He’s entering the prime of his career, so he could win one before all is said and done.
I can now say this with a straight face, and it will be accurate: Tim Tebow is a better QB than Matt Cassel.
by ProbablyYoungerThanAllOfYou on Nov 21, 2011 3:26 PM EST reply actions
Gordon was as good or better than Verlander according to both FanGraphs' WAR and Baseball Prospectus WARP
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 21, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
more precisely
FanGraphs had them as virtually the same (Verlander at 7.0 WAR, Gordon at 6.9), Baseball Prospectus has Gordon as about a win better (7.5 to 6.7).
There are other ways to skin the cat, but while I don’t think Gordon was the MVP this season, his case was pretty close to as good as Verlander’s, and it would be nice if more people would have noticed. I think he’s a good player, but it is really unlikely that Alex will ever have a season this good again.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 21, 2011 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
It doesn't seem to matter
Whether he has a season as good again. What letters is that his season looks better to the voters. More HR on a better team and he’ll get more votes. Of course that doesn’t prove anything other than this award is um rewarding something really difficult to define.
by billexgordler on Nov 21, 2011 4:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Or even not at all deserved
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
by averagegatsby on Nov 21, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I want Gordon to address the press and tell us all how he's gonna super-dominate in 2012.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Nov 21, 2011 3:29 PM EST reply actions
Not sure what to be most upset about in the voting.
Who was the last Royal to get MVP votes. Beltran in 2003? Sweeney in 2000?
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 21, 2011 3:49 PM EST reply actions
Soria has gotten votes
Usually from Bob Dutton IIRC.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Soria had one last year.
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by Jeff Zimmerman on Nov 21, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
I stand corrected.
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 21, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
MVP Votes for Royals post-1994:
2010 Joakim Soria (1)
2009 Zack Greinke (12)
2003 Carlos Beltran (77) – ninth place
2002 Mike Sweeney (1)
2001 Mike Sweeney (2)
2000 Mike Sweeney (33) – eleventh place
2000 Johnny Damon (1)
1995 Gary Gaetti (45) – tenth place
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
I stand really corrected.
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 21, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
I must have been thinking last royal top ten finish – that’s why Beltran 2003 came to mind.
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 21, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Indeed
That’s pretty awesome.
Royal love from the Rockies.
by AnnoyedGrunt on Nov 21, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Ross is still sad that he never got any votes
Not even after his explosion!
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 21, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder what poz’s ballot looked like? He probably put Paterno first, but other than that….
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 21, 2011 3:55 PM EST reply actions
Also true.
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 21, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder if the picture atop this post had anything to do with it
He looks terrible — like a band nerd, not a baseball player, in that post. Of course, in the up-is-down world of BBWA, that may help him: extra gritty, donchaknow.
90% of this blog resents that band nerd comment...
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Nov 21, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
(Ed McMahon voice) You are correct sir
C. Montgomery Hunt: One of the greatest heroes in American history.
I went to junior high in Texas
and they were “band queers.” Went to high school at SM South and they were “band fags.” I have never heard “band nerds,” and suspect that it is a euphemism.
We had an intramural basketball league at South during the winter. I was on the cross-country squad’s team. We were terrible—had only one guy who knew how to play. We only managed to beat the yearbook and the band.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
Hosmer didn't receive the MVP - that's unfortunate.
But it’s OK. People weren’t always accepting of him the first time he came to Earth. They’ll come around.
by KyleM on Nov 21, 2011 4:40 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
He hasn't even gotten his crown of thorns yet
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
by averagegatsby on Nov 21, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Game 162
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 21, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
There is no way
Verlander should have been anything higher than 4th.
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
Quote of the day...
This quote is from Jerry Crasnick’s article for ESPN about why Verlander should have won the award:
Wins above replacement is a nice, handy tool to define each player’s contribution over a full season, but when you’re factoring in different roles and judgments based on defense and baserunning, is it really possible to compare Jacoby Ellsbury’s 9.4 WAR with Jose Bautista’s 8.3 and Verlander’s 7.0 and say you’re comparing apples to apples?
The run on sentence is a nice addition to the overall statement, I think. Seriously? It’s your job to write well!
MAJOR LEAGUE (The Royals)
Rachel Phelps (Royals Management): I think he'll fit right in with our team concept.
Charlie Donovan (Royals Fans): That reminds me, I was going to ask you. What exactly *is* our team concept?
What different roles?
They’re all there to help their team win, by hitting the baseball, running the bases and fielding the ball. Its not like Bautista was a middle reliever while Ellsbury was a centerfielder.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 21, 2011 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
Why not use...
…Bill James’s Win Shares formula to determine votes? – TL
"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.
Because it starts with "Bill James"
If it was “Tony LaRussa’s”, they’d already be using it.
MAJOR LEAGUE (The Royals)
Rachel Phelps (Royals Management): I think he'll fit right in with our team concept.
Charlie Donovan (Royals Fans): That reminds me, I was going to ask you. What exactly *is* our team concept?
by Royals Medic on Nov 22, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
A couple of points
1) The first one’s easy and pretty open ended: How should the playoff team/not playoff team factor into the argument? I should think it is of some importance. A premium should be placed on being important on a team that made the playoffs over a team that did not, right? What should that value be?
2) If we’re going to slam Hellickson for his BABIP in the ROY thread and Verlander for his, do we also get to subtract that from Ellsbury, Bautista, et al? On the Royals front, how about Gordon? That .358 BABIP is sustainable. So, same question as we have been talking about with the other awards: do you reward the season the player, luck and all or do you strip out the luck? I tend to lead towards giving a decent amount of weight to the season the player had with luck included. But then one could rightly argue “isn’t that just like giving an award to the luckiest good player”.
3) By the same token, Ellsbury and, to a lesser extent, Gordon get huge swings from their fielding WAR. In Ellsbury’s 3 full seasons (I’m taking out 2010), he has fielding values of 21.2, -9.7, and 15.6. So if it takes looking at 3 seasons of data for UZR data to normalize, what the heck do we do with Ellsbury? Should we just say he’s a 9 run talent in the outfield? If so, why the wild fluctations? Is that the fielding equivalent of BABIP?
It was only one Jin Wong Interview thread ago where the Royals were taken to task for their lack of defensive metrics, on one hand, but then when asked to defend UZR, everyone is reminded that it takes 3+ years of UZR data so that’s why the stats aren’t at all consistent. That means we’re making huge judgements on the value of a player using incomplete data.
So, once again, I see a lot of using WAR as shorthand for value when we all know it’s a lot more complicated than that. If you know and understand WAR to the extent where you will put on an elitist air, spend energies decrying those who foolishly ignore it, then I expect a more robust in the thought process than “Player1(WAR) > Player2(WAR), thus Player1 > Player2”
just a short note on 2)
it is a mistake to equate pitcher and hitter BABIP
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 21, 2011 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
I imagine that a .010 deviation for a pitcher and .010 for a batter are not equal
But if a pitcher and batter are each .010 above league average (well, one above and one below, but you get the idea), aren’t they both lucky? It may not be equivalent luck, but both are lucky, right?
I'm not sure exactly how I'd put it if I were being precise
Both pitchers and hitters have some control over their BABIP, but the general idea as I understand it (a potentially dubious assumption)is that generally speaking, even aside from determining true talent, it is generally going to be closer to correct (when are using a DIPS-type stat for pitchers, like FIP or FRA or whatever) for the whole population to assume that individual pitchers are not controlling their BABIP in the same when hitters do. That is not just a true talent consideration. There are a lot of things behind all that (and not everyone will agree, I know that) that I am telescoping. Sorry to “self-promote,” as some might say, but I discussed about some of this stuff in relation to pitchers (and to a lesser extent, fieldling) in my FanGraphs post on the AL MVP from earlier today. I found this post by Phil Birnbaum about the NL Cy Young helpful when thinking about pitchers (and by applying it to some other stuff).
As for Gordon’s fielding, I haven’t done it for all the stats, but I cut it up a couple of different ways with fWAR with weighting fielding by half or even removing it entirely (I also did this to a lesser extent with BP’s leaderboards). Even in those cases, Gordon was one of the top nine players in the AL.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 21, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
he first one’s easy and pretty open ended: How should the playoff team/not playoff team factor into the argument? I should think it is of some importance. A premium should be placed on being important on a team that made the playoffs over a team that did not, right? What should that value be?
Why should it matter? Nothing in the description of the award says anything about the competitiveness of the team, only about the value of the players. If their WAR was equal, Bautista was arguably more valuable to his team than Ellsbury because his Jays teammates were worse – thus Bautista constituted a greater portion of their offense. I don’t see why Bautista should be penalized for having crappier teammates.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 21, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Ellsbury bought the wings and beer.
Where would have the the team been without him?
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by Jeff Zimmerman on Nov 21, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
The Definition Of
Value has plagued this award since I can remember. It is so subjective as to be meaningless. A good to great player always wins it.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 22, 2011 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
1. MVP in my book means most valuable player to his team in a given season. Period. Doesn’t matter how that team performed overall. The history of the MVP bears this out, as there are plenty of examples of MVPs who played on non-playoff or even losing teams. This is a highly debated issue, however.
2. For me, statistics that portend luck are vital for analysis of players, in order to determine their future performance. For MVP voting, however, I don’t really care. No matter how unsustainable a certain aspect of a player’s performance is over a larger sample size, I think the MVP voting is one thing that should be based on what the player accomplished within that season, even if it were through “smoke and mirrors.”
3. Outfield assists, morans.
Discussing his NL MVP ballot on SportsCenter last night
Kurkjian said that Kemp was the best player in the NL and Braun was the most valuable because he was the best player on a playoff team that had no chance of being a playoff team without him.
I don’t necessarily agree with him, but I thought it was interesting how he laid it out.
So he's still measuring the player's relative worth to their team
I can live with that. I just don’t think not playing on a playoff team is an automatic disqualifier. I would have voted Kemp.
I think I'd have voted for Joey Bats
Alex was clearly one of the top ten players in the AL in 2011.
Maybe the MVP should be for field players only and the Cy Young should be the equivalent for pitchers, since it’s so difficult to compare the relative value of the two types of player.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
Maybe the MVP should be for field players only and the Cy Young should be the equivalent for pitchers, since it’s so difficult to compare the relative value of the two types of player.
The hitters have the Silver Slugger and Gold Gloves [yes, I said hitters for GG because that’s usually what it is… (there shouldn’t be one for pitchers)]. That makes the MVP award equal grounds for both position players and hitters… but MVP has to include all the other essentials of the game, right? Pitching, hitting, baserunning, defense….
Dirt And Grass
Stains rampant on a field of translucent white.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 23, 2011 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
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