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Royals Re-Sign Master Chen to Two Year Deal

With compensation for Type B free agents to become a thing of the past in 2013, Dayton Moore thought it would be time to get used to the new CBA now and decided to pass on draft compensation for Type B free agent Bruce Chen by signing Chen to a two year contract worth $9 million in guaranteed money, plus $1 million in a roster bonus and another $1 million in incentives. What, no mutual option? No $25,000 bonus for winning the Cy Young? Jin Wong is dropping the ball.

Chen, originally signed by the Royals as a minor league free agent, was named Royals Pitcher of the Year in 2011, winning 12 games with a 3.77 ERA and 155 innings in 25 starts. He posted a 4.39 FIP and earned 1.9 WAR (per Fangraphs). In three years with the Royals, he has a 25-21 record with a 4.28 ERA in 357 2/3 innings pitched. He has started more games for the Royals than for any of the ten Major League clubs he has pitched for. 

The Opening Day rotation is looking like: Chen/Sanchez/Paulino/Hochevar with Danny Duffy battling Aaron Crow, Everett Teaford, Vinsanity Mazzaro, Luis Mendoza and probably Kyle Davies somehow for the fifth spot.

Its all coming together. Mission 2012 is upon us. C'mon Chen.

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Is a "roster bonus" as easy to qualify for as it sounds?

Also, as nice as a 3.77 ERA looks, following it with “5.6 K/9 and 2.9 BB/9” sure reads a lot more like “due for regression.”

Royal love from the Rockies.

by AnnoyedGrunt on Nov 23, 2011 5:17 PM EST reply actions  

Yes, but "12 wins" means he knows how to win

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 23, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

There is that.

Royal love from the Rockies.

by AnnoyedGrunt on Nov 23, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

And "Pitcher of the Year"

case closed

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

It seems to me it's noramlly an NFL thing

But if the roster bonus has a date that’s far enough back, it’ll allow the team to save a whole million dollars if they end up cutting him.

Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!

by mazoboom on Nov 24, 2011 7:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I imagine that you would murder anyone else who tries to do the write-up at Fangraphs

At least you get to continue your unhealthy obsession with Bruce for another two whole years.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I have already made my peace

with the (Ch)end of an Era.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 23, 2011 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess we finally have our nickname

“Double Down” Dayton

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 23, 2011 5:20 PM EST reply actions  

I don't hate it

Pros:

- Chen is probably a 1-2 WAR pitcher going forward, which means we’re getting him at or below market value (assuming WAR accurately accounts for Chen’s abilities)
- Chen’s skillset plays well at the K
- C’MON CHEN

Cons:

- Pitchers get hurt
- Chen is basically assured a spot in the rotation baring injury, so we can’t upgrade that spot
- Why pay market value for Chen when you can pay below market value for someone else who’s just as good? (we got TWO such players last year in Chen and Francis, so it seems likely it can be done)

by CompmanJX3 on Nov 23, 2011 5:21 PM EST reply actions  

And #4 under cons

Why pay market value for TWO YEARS of Chen when you could pay market value for ONE YEAR of equivalent production from someone else (Capuano, Francis, et al.) AND get one of the last comp picks?

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Veteran presence!

I guess when if he tanks it’s not crippling. But when that is the high point of it, its probably not good.

Edgar knows best.

by kcbottom9th on Nov 23, 2011 5:23 PM EST reply actions  

Depth...

…Is it worth it to pay 4.5 million per year for #3-#5 depth? Given the market, it doesn’t seem horrible to me.

"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

by timlacy on Nov 23, 2011 5:25 PM EST reply actions  

It's not terrible

Until you realize they have committed to an extra year, when equivalent production would have been available with only a one-year deal. And then there’s the whole forfeiting of an extra pick thing.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

No, but we gave him two years

when we could’ve gotten a similar pitcher for the same money for one year.

by Loose Seal on Nov 23, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Yawn

We got a butt load of snow today. I could use some hotter news. Or an overflow girl, preferably the slim-wated dame with the yellow tank top.

by LaFLamme on Nov 23, 2011 5:27 PM EST reply actions  

It is going to be 65 here tomorrow

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Nov 23, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Nice and sunny here in BCN

There’s a pile of cats sleeping in the sunny spot on my sofa. Rained like hell earlier in the week, though. This is a dryish climate, about 25 inches of rain a year, and the rain is seasonal in the spring and fall, so we need all we can get. Several years ago we had such a bad drought that we had to import fresh water from the Rhone on these enormous tanker ships just so the city wouldn’t run out.

"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."

by Juancho on Nov 24, 2011 4:40 AM EST up reply actions  

On the bright side

All the people who bought “C’mon Chen!” shirts get two more years out of them. Small victories and such.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 5:28 PM EST reply actions  

Two more chances

For the Royals to make a “Bruce Chen Bobble-Head Night” promotion.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Nov 23, 2011 5:31 PM EST reply actions  

Maybe this will quiet those Jurrjens rumors a bit now

And maybe Moore will focus the rest of the postseason on extending Gordon.

Our dream rotation of Hoch, Paulino, Chen, Sanchez, Duffy is now complete.

by Loose Seal on Nov 23, 2011 5:35 PM EST reply actions  

Absolutely!

I’ll take two guanteed years of Chen over losing Wil.

by Royalron on Nov 23, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Could've been worse...but it's far from good.

I’ll give this move a D+

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 5:36 PM EST reply actions  

A C is average.

I’d call this move a bit below average, but certainly not awful.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

The first year of the deal is a C+ because Chen is cool

$4.5MM for a pitcher like Chen is fine. We had to sign somebody like Chen at some point, but losing the draft pick we could’ve gotten if Chen signed elsewhere takes it back down to a C.

The second year is the killer – $4.5MM committed to an injury-prone, over-performing, old pitcher is a bad move. Especially when we have a limited budget, a handful of pitching prospects that could arrive in 2013, and there is a solid free agent starting pitcher class in 2012.

I agree that this is a D/D+ move.

by Loose Seal on Nov 23, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, by signing Chen as a FA

Dayton avoiding having to trade Myers FOR Chen later on. So when you play chess instead of checkers like Dayton, it’s an awesome move.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions  

the 'DM is an idiot' posts were ok a few years ago

but he has mostly proved them wrong and is on a heck of a run over the last 18 monhts

by its coming on Nov 24, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

That ignores the fact...

….that this signing is the work of an idiot.

Frankly, I’ve been pretty easy on DM for a while now, because he hasn’t done anything particularly dumb for a while now.

Then he did this. Criticism of bad moves is completely fair game. Trying to distract for a stupid move by saying that he didn’t do anything particularly stupid in the previous 18 months doesn’t make this signing any less stupid.

by kcemigre on Nov 24, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

And I think they should be looked at side by side. Dayton set the market for two categories (#4-5 SP and corner OF) and did it before the market really even materialized, especially in Francoeur’s case. The Royals can’t be in the business of setting the market for FAs, and they don’t need to be this offseason.

Even worse, Dayton didn’t upgrade his team in either case. He more doubled what he paid last year, added another year, and can’t realistically hope for anything more in production than what he got last year.

Be patient, be rational and be ruthless to a certain extent. Add Kendall, Blomquist and Gloss to this and you have a pattern of overpaying players because they’re Dayton’s kind of guy.

by thelaundry on Nov 24, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

setting the market???

get back to me after the players sign. You don’t have to go to contract to know the market

by its coming on Nov 27, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

you can be debated

this move was terrible because you say so and thus DM is an idiot.

by its coming on Nov 27, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not sure what point (if any) you are making here.

This move isn’t stupid because I say so. This move is stupid for all of the reasons I have explained over and over in this thread and several others over the last month or so—ever since the rumors of a possible two-year deal started circulating. It was a bad move and I have explained why many, many times.

If you would like to address any of those reasons (something you seem to be avoiding), then maybe a debate could happen. But you don’t seem to want to do that. Chen ain’t worth $14M over two years, and that’s the real cost of this signing.

As long as you keep framing the issue in terms of whether or not the man who made this move is an “idiot” you can keep pretending that this discussion is somehow just about the GM’s level of intelligence, and that everyone (except you) is just here to call him names.

If you really wanted to have an intelligent discussion, however, you might try addressing the Chen signing: You might try explaining how giving up a compensation pick in order to sign a mediocre pitcher to a two-year deal in the middle of a seller’s market is somehow a smart move.

This signing is costing the Royals much, much more than they are getting in return. It’s a stupid move. It’s a dumb move. It’s a move that shouldn’t have been made. I don’t say any of this to denigrate Dayton Moore. I don’t say this because you’re supposed to take my word as gospel. I say this because the move, when viewed in its full context, is simply indefensible.

And you haven’t made any attempt to defend the Chen signing on its merits. Instead, you’ve spent all of your time accusing everyone else of not making substantive arguments. On the whole, that seems pretty hypocritical. On the whole, it really seems like you’re the one who won’t engage in honest debate.

by kcemigre on Nov 27, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

there is no cencensus of any kind on the contract

many pluses and negatives in various forums. It’s obvious when the dust sets in (other FA pitchers sign) the real evaluation will take place (and the signs point to the SP FA market is way over-heated). Yet without this data this is a terrible singing per you and another example of our poor GM. If you believe a draft pick is better than what Chen can do, you must wait and see what Chen actually does and what else plays out in the trade/FA signing markets. There were 3 teams in on Chen so your comment on a sellers market doesn’t have any relevance (unless we were trading him). Considering where this team is today, a solid #4 starter within the current market conditions is more prudent than a possible draft pick that wont show up for a while (assuming we would have picked a starter with the pick).

by its coming on Nov 27, 2011 11:37 PM EST up reply actions  

A quick clarification

Your reference to three teams being in on Chen suggests that you misunderstood me in regard to the current “sellers’ market” for FA SP. Perhaps I was not clear, so I’ll explain.

There is a broad consensus that FA SP are scarce this year and that more such pitchers will be available on the market next year. Thus, basic rules of supply and demand suggest that such pitchers will be more expensive in 2012 than in 2013. So, the 2012 market favors pitchers who are selling their talents to MLB teams, instead of favoring those teams, who are buying that talent. That’s what I mean when I say we’re in a sellers’ market. Conversely, when the free agents hit the market a year from now, the situation will reverse, and FA SP will become a buyers’ market.

All other things being equal, it doesn’t make sense to buy in a sellers’ market when you don’t have to do so because the price will reflect the prevailing market. Dayton just bought a pitcher for two years—both 2012 and 2013. But in order to do so, he had to pay the 2012 price. In other words, he bought a 2013 pitcher at the 2012 price.

So, I don’t like that aspect of this contract. That is certainly not the biggest problem with the Chen signing, but it is worth noting. I have a much bigger problem with the fact that Dayton gave up the compensation pick for no reason…

by kcemigre on Nov 28, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Settling Dust and the Compensation Pick...

We don’t have to wait for any “dust to set in” before assessing this signing. In fact, if we did that, someone would eventually accuse us of unfairly using hindsight to evaluate a move that the GM had to make without the benefit of such knowledge. And all of that is unecessary anyway, because we can actually see that Dayton has made a mistake using only what we know today, and nothing else.

However the FA SP market shapes up over the next few months, we already know that Bruce Chen was willing to sign for $9M guaranteed with a chance to make $11M over the course of two years. Let’s just assume for the sake of argument that that is his actual value on the open market (and, of course, if he had gotten any better offers, it is safe to assume he would have signed somewhere else). Let’s also give Bruce the benefit of the doubt and assume that he’s going to be a decent pitcher for the next two years and actually secure those incentive payments.

Now, if the Cubs or Rockies (the other teams reported to have interest) had signed this deal with Chen, and we assume that $11M was the right price to put on his services, the Cubs or Rockies would have made a reasonable (if not particularly exciting) decision. But the Royals had to give up more than the Cubs or Rockies would have given up in that deal, because the Royals had a compensation pick riding in the balance.

We’ll never know what Dayton would have done with that pick (and no amount of waiting for the dust to settle will ever provide us with that information), but we can look at history to see how valuable type-B compensation picks usually are. Two years ago, Victor Wang did that analysis on the surplus value of draft picks, and concluded that players drafted between the 31st and 45th overall picks return, on average, a net surplus value of roughly $2.63M over their team-controlled years. (And—give credit where credit is due—Dayton has done very well in the draft lately, so I expect that he’s likely to actually beat the “average” return). I would suggest that salary inflation would put that number pretty close to $3M today. And that $3M pick is part of what Dayton gave up to sign Chen. As a result, the actual cost to the Royals of signing Bruce Chen is closer to $14M for two years than it is to $11M.

So, putting it all together, if the Cubs or Rockies had given Chen an $11M deal, that would have been reasonable (based on our prior assumptions). But Dayton just gave up $14M in actual value for a pitcher who no one else would have signed for anywhere near that cost (no assumptions necessary—you know Chen would have taken that deal elsewhere if it was on the table). Thus, even if we assume that everything else about this deal was completely reasonable (and I’ve made those assumptions solely for the sake of argument… that second year really isn’t reasonable at all because of the sellers’ market I discussed above), the type B compensation still makes this a bad deal for the Royals.

by kcemigre on Nov 28, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Just to fact that you think 70ish win seasons are a "heck of a run" shows how poor of a GM DM has been thus far in his tenure.

Yes, we have a lot of good prospects. That’s now the point of being a GM. A GM builds winning major league baseball teams. Until that happens, DM has done a poor job. Simple as that.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 24, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

"Heck of a job, Brownie"

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Nov 24, 2011 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

The Extra Year

Of control will make him more attractive to competing teams at the deadline. That’s what this is about, right?

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 23, 2011 5:54 PM EST reply actions  

He needs a trademark that involves winning or something.

If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.

by setupunchtag on Nov 23, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

That's Cliche; Dayton

Wears his own kind of hat.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 23, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions  

D = Dayton?

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Nov 23, 2011 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

If you wan't to use hindsight, then all GMs make stupid moves.

The Phillies just signed Papsmear for 60 mil when they had better in house options for a tenth the price. (Bastardo?)

Criticizing Moore for signing Melky 9 days before the Grienke trade is pure hindsight. Go look at Mr. Sabean’s World championship record of signing players.

This wasn’t a great move, but it wasn’t terrible.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

So let me get this straight

You’re using the “Better than Sabean” measuring stick for GM performance?

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

In hindsight, signing Frenchy and Melky looks pretty good - it was stupid in foresight, and objectively

Because you never know what the next few weeks of an offseason will bring, it is almost never a good idea to sign reclamation projects, mediocre veterans, etc, this early in the offseason. It is a strategically bad choice.

Dayton signed not one but two outfielders in December 2010, well before he had to sign either of them. He did so when an outfield of Gordon/Maier/Lough or Gordon/Dyson/Maier would have been just fine in 2011. And let’s not forget that by December, the Greinke chum was already in the water.

As for your “hindsight,” I’d argue that Dayton looks pretty good right now. He kept Cain’s service time suppressed, got career years out of Melky and Frenchy, traded Cabrera for pitching… Sorry, this isn’t about hindsight being 20/20. This is about hindsight actually OBSCURING the fact that Moore is an idiot.

by moregritplease on Nov 23, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

You are seeminly not bothering to actually read my posts

Look, I probably would have been okay with signing EITHER ONE of either Jeff Francoeur or Melky Cabrera. I think Melky, particularly, would have been a great signing, even if it had happened earlier, and I think Moore deserves a modicum of credit for trading Melky to San Francisco. Kudos to him for making an obvious trade that should have happened last trade deadline.

Problem is, Cabrera wasn’t signed alone. Jeff Francoeur came before him. Let me repeat: this is why smart general managers sign better players BEFORE signing mediocre or bad players. If Moore had waited a few weeks on Francoeur, he could have avoided the signing altogether, and given the Royals an outfield of Gordon, Cain, Cabrera in 2011, saving us a few million and giving Cain some much-needed ML service time.

Then, Moore doubled down on his stupidity by extending Frenchy during the season, yet another move he made well before there was any need. It’s a pattern of behavior, really. It’s not like the world would come to an end without Jeff Francoeur in right field in 2012, and Gordon should have been the priority if anything. But this is turning into a Frenchy post, and I don’t want that because it’s not just about him.

Melky and Frenchy have just had career years, and Melky has just been traded, so in hindsight things look great right now for Moore. In reality, the signings could have turned out very differently. And even at their best, these deals netted us a year of production from Melky that didn’t help us compete, a back-end starting pitcher, and a few years of Jeff Francoeur (for whom we’re pretty much paying market value now).

Just answer me one question: why couldn’t the signing of Melky, or Frenchy, or both, waited another few weeks?

by moregritplease on Nov 24, 2011 6:21 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Seems counterintuitive, right?

But yes, that is the case I’m making. It was a bad move that, luckily, worked out.

by moregritplease on Nov 23, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Just admit you hate the guy

He could trade Christian Colon for Matt Moore and you would complain that he traded a 1st round pick for an 8th rnd pick.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Totally Missing The

Point. Baseball is a game where bad moves pay off sometimes, thus your 2010 World Series Champion Giants.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 23, 2011 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

So,

Sabean just put a blindfold on and threw darts at his draftboard and just “luckily” hit tim lincecum, Matt Cain, Madison Bumgarner, Buster Posey, etc.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Um, if I recall correctly

At least on Lincecum…yes. No one thought Lincecum was going to be as good as he has been and even if he was successful a lot of people think(and still do) that he is an injury risk.

So yes. Lincecum was a proverbial “lucky” dart

"We don’t have guys with a long history of being effective in the seventh and eighth innings."
~Trey Hillman, master of understatements.

by RoyalPug on Nov 24, 2011 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

wow.

Sabean obviously knew something. The dude has 2 Cy’s. If he drops dead today, it was a fuckin fantastic pick. Gotta give credit where its due.

by Bronzillo on Nov 24, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions  

meant to rec this...and, accidentally flagged it.

Okay, well maybe we should tell that to Rain Man, because he practically bankrupted a casino, and he was a ri-tard.

by Clearly Ambiguous on Nov 23, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

as rick perry would say.....oops.

Okay, well maybe we should tell that to Rain Man, because he practically bankrupted a casino, and he was a ri-tard.

by Clearly Ambiguous on Nov 23, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

No, GMDM's getting criticized for not reading the free agent market well

There was no need to sign Frenchy and Melky in December last year. They could’ve been signed weeks later after the Greinke deal. Given that multiple major league ready prospects were inevitable, waiting to find out what we got out of the Greinke haul would have been smarter.

He also thought Frenchy needed to be wrapped up before the end of this season, and out-bidded nobody in a deal that puzzled everyone.

Now, with Chen, GMDM could have waited another month or two, and seen what the market looked like before paying market or above-market rate to Chen. Chen made it pretty clear that he wanted to stay in KC and was going to give the Royals a good opportunity to sign him.

We don’t have all the information, but it seems like GMDM is habitually getting out-negotiated by these players’ agents. We all want Chen to succeed and for this to look like a good deal in hindsight, but that doesn’t mean that it couldn’t have been a better deal.

by Loose Seal on Nov 23, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Never surprised.....I'm glad we live in a country where Scott Boras can do his thing....

But I still don’t have to like that Scott Boras does his thing….

The Royal Pork T....between inning snack of prized Royal Designated Hitters

by kd_in_kc on Nov 25, 2011 9:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah...

But the Phillies didn’t know they were giving up a comp pick for absolutely no reason.

Dayton knew he was doing exactly that.

Dayton’s stupid.

by kcemigre on Nov 23, 2011 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

The timing I actually like

the deal, I don’t love it but it’s not offensive. C-. Perhaps the Royals knew that Chen would accept arbitration and they decided they’d rather have cost certainty over two years than go to arb and possibly be on the hook for $6M for one year. I can live with that.

I think that teams are better off erring on the side of aggressiveness early in the off-season because it keeps them from making desperate moves that can be much more damaging late in the process once options begin to foreclose.

Does anyone really need to see a top-tier starter get signed to know that it’s going to be a ridiculous contract that will be an albatross within three years?

by billexgordler on Nov 23, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

But they can afford the $6MM this year

Salaries on guys like Butler and Soria (not that I think he’ll be here then) and arb-eligible players are set to go up even more in 2013.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

From what I read on MLBTR, Chen had 2-year offers on the table

I doubt there was any risk he’d take arbitration. But I guess anything’s possible.

by moregritplease on Nov 24, 2011 6:50 AM EST up reply actions  

A certainty of 2/9 (plus 2 in likely incentives) is better than the possibility of $6M with a likelihood of $5M?

I don’t think that makes sense in general and I think it really doesn’t make sense in the Royals circumstance. The Royals have a lot of payroll room for 2012. In 2013, things will be tighter, and that is when the Royals could/should actually hit the FA market to get a genuinely good player or two. Now, that just got harder.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 8:45 AM EST up reply actions  

And 6 is a red herring

Most who were in favor of offering him arbitration were arguing that he’d make less than $5M. Now that he’s been signed for 2/9+, he’s suddenly a $6M man.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions  

All the more reason...

…to offer him arb and go sign someone else.

by kcemigre on Nov 24, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions  

kcemigre answers this logically,

I’m just wondering your source…

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Nov 24, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

If true, and if he would have taken one of those deals, then that would have been great for the Royals

Because a compensatory draft pick is better than having a mid-30’s, oft-injured, below average pitcher making $9M guaranteed for the next two years.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Chen doesn't charge anything for his 'Stand Up' routines in the clubhouse.

These keep everyone in stitches and smiling when they return home after a hard days work.
NONE of you thought of that though did you?

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 6:07 PM EST reply actions  

fuckin 2 years.

Do these effectively hide my thunder?

by splitty on Nov 23, 2011 6:08 PM EST reply actions  

Great point.

I guess they figured with Kendall’s money coming off they have plenty more to spend on mediocrity…for multiple years.

If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.

by setupunchtag on Nov 23, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll wait til I see it on CNN

before I believe it’s official

by wildthang on Nov 23, 2011 6:11 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Payroll Update = ~$52 million!

The 2012 payroll now projects to about $52 million.

$4.5 million for Chen

$23 million in other guaranteed contracts for Butler, Soria, Francoeur, Crow, and Arguelles

~$16 million in arbitration-eligible salaries for Sanchez (est. $5.2m), Gordon ($4.3m), Hochevar ($4m), Paulino ($1.6m), and Pena ($0.9m). Please note that I am just using the MLBTR projections, which I think are a little low for Sanchez and Gordon, but close enough. (Mitch would be an additional $700,000 or so).

~$7 million for the other 15 roster making the league minimum (15 x $0.480m) (assuming Arguelles in the minors)

~$1.5 million in contingency salary for players on the DL (as the Royals would have to pay the DL player his salary and pay the replacement on the active roster)

If my math is correct, that adds up to $52 million. If the 2012 budget is in line with Dayton’s prior statements (from blogger night) that the team can only sustain a payroll in the $55 to $60 million range, there does not appear to be much room in the budget for more than a few million in additional salary.

As for the Chen signing, meh.

by Gopherballs on Nov 23, 2011 6:14 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

When did he say that?

Ive seen him quoted many times saying they could (and have) spend way more than that.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

If Minn can sustain a 122 mil payroll,

Im pretty sure KC can and will extend the payroll well into the 90 mil range when its necessary. We will need some more fan support, but it will happen.

Go dig up your 55 mil quote. I would like to see it, b/c I dont think it happened.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

no reason to be rude gopher,

since you made the statement, the impetus is on you to back it up.

Since he has had a payroll in excess of 72 mil as recently as 2010, these “statements” are obviously to be taken with a grain of salt.

Im not sure how official (read: reliable) a blogger discussion is to start with.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe you should broaden your

knowledge by venturing outside your RR comfort zone every once in awhile. Just because I recently signed up, doesn’t mean I am any less informed than you on anything.

Its know-it-all assclowns like you that remind me why I usually don’t comment in SB blogs.

I get it, treat the ‘new guy’ like shit and maybe he will go away. nice.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions  

well...
Go dig up your 55 mil quote. I would like to see it, b/c I dont think it happened.

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:16 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm not convinced.

Milwaukee had an owner who was willing to lose money to win a championship. Glass is not that kind of owner.

by Loose Seal on Nov 23, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

IMO

Given the payrolls of Minn, Stl, Mil and others relative to Kansas City, and assuming we can draw at least 28+ per, I don’t think its unreasonable to think that with a newly renovated park with more luxury boxes, (and other modern revenue generating sources like the Rivals Sports Bar) we can handle a payroll of 90+ on any given year.

The key here is sustain. If the payroll were to avg 90, that would mean a fluctuation of 70 to 110mil. Im not sure were there yet. Certainly we can afford 90+ mil if necessary for this team going forward for a 3 year run in say ’15-17.

If you disagree, good for you. Have your own opinion.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

You're gonna have to convince Glass of that then.

His actions and GMDM’s statements show that $70-75MM is their upper limit. It’s not my opinion – it’s fact. That is the Royal’s policy.

Whether it’s a possible or better to run the team on a higher payroll is a matter of opinion. I agree that the Royals should spend more, but I’m not the one who writes the checks. So I have to evaluate the Chen signing and all other Royals’ moves under the assumption that $70-75MM is our payroll limit.

by Loose Seal on Nov 23, 2011 8:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree that my opinion

is predicated on a large jump in attendance. 5,000 new fans per game would probably mean 16 mil ($40 per) in new revenue. I understand that is not net profit, but their are other sources. Revenue sharing, George Brett autographed lap dances…

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

One season = sustain?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Nov 23, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

The Brewers averaged 38k a game

And we averaged 21k and were are supposed to have a higher payroll than them?

by Royals Time on Nov 24, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Rewind yourself, Crowncola...

…Gopher didn’t seem rude at all.

It is reasonably safe to assume that pretty much everyone here knew exactly what he was talking about with that quote.

As the new guy who didn’t know what was going on, you might have tried inquiring politely.

Instead you directly challenged his credibility by saying:

Go dig up your 55 mil quote. I would like to see it, b/c I dont think it happened.

That was rude. Also, it made you look a little bit like a fool, particularly since this is the internet, and it would have taken very little time for you to just dig up the source yourself.

by kcemigre on Nov 23, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Now, if you ask nicely, maybe someone will explain “rewind yourself.” Or maybe you can just do a quick search to figure it out on your own.

by kcemigre on Nov 23, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

You can all gang up on me if you want,

I Just didn’t particularly being called lazy and misinformed. I how no idea where in the archives this tidbit of info would be located…

Furthermore, the “rewind yourself” assuredly refers to a Mr. Kendall in defense of a Mr. Moustakas on 610 am, and the “trey hillman” used as verb must refer to the overall disrespect his own players showed him. Maybe even specifically going back to ST ’10 when he tried to call a meeting at homeplate to chew out everyone for not hustling….something like that.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 8:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Fine, you win

The whole discussion is petty. What Dayton told a bunch of bloggers is irrelevant imo.

I just get so sick of all the “armchair GM” type criticism. Its just such an easy thing to do.

Everyone thinks they could do a better job than Dayton Moore. I get it.

I will go on record saying I think he is doing a pretty good job, and i like the direction he is taking this team. Has he made some awful moves? Hell yes. But I truely think he is getting better and he deserves more respect than he gets.

This site is awful about that. Almost everyone here trashes him mercilessly.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

So, there is no doubt that you could do

better than Dayton Frickin Moore right K man?

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah,

there was a troll whose handle was The K-man. He’s been suspended multiple times.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions  

No reason you should have.

That’s what BBB was referring to, though.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Isn't there some other guy who keeps getting banned?

"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."

by Juancho on Nov 24, 2011 4:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Haven't seen Jackie Boy lately either

Probably busy lighting up the Royals’ Facebook page.

We should trade for Vance Worley.

by JKWard on Nov 24, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey now

I hope Jack is still around. I didn’t agree with many of his posts, but that’s neither here nor there. He puts a lot of thought into his posts, looks at stats, and handled disagreement and criticism a fair bit better than a lot of us “adults.”

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 25, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed on all counts.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 25, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you for the compliments.

I must say, really brightens my day.

I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.

2012 is the year we shine.

by Jack Marsh on Nov 26, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm still here.

Just been busy lately with homework and such.

I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.

2012 is the year we shine.

by Jack Marsh on Nov 26, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 26, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Why does it keep flagging whenever I try to rec?

That is pissing me off.

I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.

2012 is the year we shine.

by Jack Marsh on Nov 26, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Totally not the guy I was thinking of when they mentioned Jack Marsh

Jack is a solid contributor.

I’m thinking of a guy who gets real emotional about things and Scott rips into him constantly until he gives up out of frustration.

This is going to bug me until I figure this out…

We should trade for Vance Worley.

by JKWard on Nov 27, 2011 7:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Jim Fetterolf?

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 27, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

YES!!!!!

That is absolutely correct.

We should trade for Vance Worley.

by JKWard on Nov 28, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Daytonsucks?

But that wouldn’t be like this guy’s alter-ego, right?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Nov 24, 2011 9:07 AM EST up reply actions  

While maybe this site veers a little more into the negative than other sites,

it seems like Moore gets credit when it’s due. No one around here is saying that he can’t build a farm system. This is where the credit is due. There is cause for concern virtually everywhere else.

There is a lot of snark here, but why shouldn’t there be?

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess i just don't see any credit given to him at all.

In this thread alone, it seems his moves are all luck (Frenchy, Cabrera, Chen, Francis, Paulino) and his mistakes (Frenchy re-sign, Chen re-sign) are the glaring incompetence of a moron. It just gets on my nerves.

I will say it again. I like the guy.

How come rookie GM’s aren’t given similar slack to what rookie players get?

How come if a player is terrible when he first comes to the bigs, he is given a free pass, but a GM is fed to the wolves….I have never understood that.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

No one around here didn't like the Paulino waiver claim.

The Francis signing was met with broad approval in these parts. The Frenchy signing was not well-thought-of at the time and neither was the Cabrera one. Last year’s Chen signing was a bit more divisive. The Frenchy extension was unnecessary.

GMDM is not a rookie GM anymore. He’s been on the job for quite a while now.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe its just the level

of condescension, blatent disrespect, rudeness and general loathing that i find offensive.

The guy is a human being and has a family.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the children of some of the bloggers on this site throw rocks at his children.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions  

i havent seen anyone attacking dayton personally and especially his family...

he gets attacked for his job performance…which is totally fair…i think some criticize him too much, but thats part of the job…the sweet job that he has that he gets paid a shit ton of money to do…its not like we’re attacking the greeter at wal-mart for their tone of voice or some shit.

is obama off limits to criticize b/c he has a family? GW?

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 10:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Your right

and i don’t hear Dayton complaining…just me.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

If he turns it around,

I would love it if some people gave him the props and said ‘I was wrong about him’

I do NOT think that will happen. People in general will just act as if they liked him all along. Just like they did with Gordon.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

You are not insinuating that Gordon was disliked here, were you?

If so, that’s a largely baseless claim.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

there was some criticism of Gordon

I seem to remember. some of it was warrented

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

This site was up in arms when he was demoted last year.

The only things people were critical of around here was the Royals’ handling of Gordon.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

People here either like or love Gordon. When he was struggling, people defended him due to his injuries or being yanked around between positions and levels.

You crazy guy.

If and when DM starts actually winning games (i.e. builds a legitimate contending team for the long run), DM will get credit for it. He will continue to be criticized if he makes dumb moves, however.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No one really ever bashed Alex

Maybe some fans who didn’t follow the Royals and only checked his statistics…

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....

by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

i havent done a 180 on moore...but ive turned at least 90 degrees...

i was one of the first and most vocal about hating what moore was doing

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

The one thing I've seen Dayton criticized for personally

is his very public Christianity. I tend to have more respect for low-key Christians; the years have taught me that moderation in most things is the best policy.

"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."

by Juancho on Nov 24, 2011 4:55 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Annoying God-botherer

"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."

by Juancho on Nov 24, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Juancho > Tebow

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Nov 24, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I haven't seen

Dayton criticized once for his Christianity on this site in the 7 or 8 months I’ve been around.

by Loose Seal on Nov 24, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

ive done it i guess....

not critical of his christianity…but the fact that i know about it…i dont give a shit what athletes/gms believe…i shouldnt have to read about it

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

That, And I

Strongly suspect it had some bearing on hiring Nedgar.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

IIRC

there was some criticism in the months after Dayton got hired, but everyone’s gotten used to it and no one bothers to complain much anymore.

I’m all in favor of praying; I just think it’s more honest when you do it on your own. Praying in public (unless it’s a very solemn occasion, or a religious service) is showing off.

And leave God alone unless it’s important. She’s busy and doesn’t care about your damn football game.

"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."

by Juancho on Nov 25, 2011 3:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I've mentioned it a time or two.

I try not to get too personal with that stuff because while it may not be my cup of tea, I know plenty of people for whom it is.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 25, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

You are throwing away all your credibility with every one of these type of posts that you make.

Go to RoyalsCorner where they like literally every single move DM makes. That seems like more your place. This place requires brains and the ability to deal with snark.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

It seems like both of you are making this a little too personal.

Perhaps some of us need to relax.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:17 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

X

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....

by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

So,

In order to be welcome here I need to be a hypocrite and a jackass?

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't really see my posts as being angry.

He’s clearly just making up crazy shit, so I and others are calling him on it. I don’t hate him and am not angry.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

It helps if you have a foundation of knowledge

about the Royals, like their payroll, front office moves, their prospects, and the players’ histories and tendencies. If you make errors regarding basic facts like that, your opinions will not go over well.

by Loose Seal on Nov 23, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I know all that as well as

anybody here. do you have an example? Just because I didn’t listen to a blogger interview where Dayton said he only has 55-60 mil to spend doesnt mean I dont know my shit.

Maybe you just assume I must not be informed because i am new to this site.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 10:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he's making a general statement.

People have been taking to you to town because you’ve been casting largely baseless aspersions, but most of them have been about the Royals Review community.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

What aspersions?

I think Dayton is getting a raw deal on this site. Yes.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

One could make that argument.

But you’ve been backing it up with examples that have no basis, hence “baseless aspersions.”

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Well, you are on a Royals blog run by a blogger...

..and you’ve done nothing but insult bloggers and make inaccurate statements.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Im taking

as much of a beating as im giving out.

How am I insulting the bloggers?

You seem to be throwing out the trash yourself bro.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions  

You have spent a large chunk of your Thanksgiving Eve

making claims that Royals Review (in the Royal we sense of the word) believes things that a) you disagree with, and b) aren’t actually true.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions  

what isnt true?

The evidence is everywhere. In almost every thread, Dayton Moore gets trashed. Its just my OPINION that it is unwarranted.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Your evidence for this stance

has been shoddy at best. You stated not 20 minutes ago that everyone hated the Paulino waiver claim. That’s just one example. I do not care to elucidate the others as that’s what everyone has already been doing.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

dude,

i NEVER said that. I have no idea what you are talking about.

This has become a personal gang attack on me and I don’t appreciate it.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions  

My bad.

You said that everyone around here said the Paulino claim and Francis signing were luck. Not true.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Incorrect,

In this thread alone, it seems his moves are all luck (Frenchy, Cabrera, Chen, Francis, Paulino)

Key: in this thread alone.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I was citing examples from this thread

Your making me out to be the bad guy here Duggan by twisting my words.

again, unfair and unappreciated.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And no one ever said anything like that.

In this thread alone.

Baseless. Aspersion.

Again, credit has been given when credit has been due. Paulino was a helluva grab. Everyone liked the Francis signing when it happened. No one has ever chalked that up to luck. Certainly not in this thread.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Some people

(I’m looking at you, Beau Jackson) may think that Paulino is set to come crashing to earth, but that isn’t the same thing as thinking that the waiver claim was a bad move. He was free. Everyone likes free middle of the rotation arms.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

fine

there was no specific lack of credit for the Paulino move (how could there be?) . I was remembering more of a blanket statement of ‘luck’ by moore on last years moves by moregritplease.

their couldnt really be any critism of moore for that move, as their was no cost.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 11:25 PM EST up reply actions  

IIRC,

moregritplease was attributing the Cabrera and Francoeur signings actually working out as having been lucky, which doesn’t strike me as an erroneous statement. Moore didn’t even want Cabrera after they netted Cain. He actually didn’t suck, shockingly, and they got Sanchez and Verdugo for him. Given the wealth of information that was out there at the time, there was little justification for signing Melky. It happened to work out, which is both good and bad, as it helped the team in the short term but may encourage Moore to do the same in a situation in which it can actually do harm to the team.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

that would

disregard it as a shrewd move in the first place. Which imo you cant do. Maybe Dayton knew Melky would bounce back. …I know has said he wouldnt have signed him if he had made the trade 10 days earlier, but the move wasn’t lucky imo.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

And this is where we can have

an open and friendly debate. There certainly wasn’t any hard data pointing towards a resurgence. We both know Moore was crossing his fingers and hoping it worked out. Ultimately, it wasn’t going to cost the Royals much, so the magnitude of its consequences were somewhat limited. The outcry was in that it was yet another example of Moore signing a player who had poor on-base skills and other deficiencies who shouldn’t be counted upon to actually produce. It worked, but that’s sort of like telling the guy who won $50 on a scratch-off to keep buying lottery tickets because they’ll keep paying out.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions  

but it DID work out

So, it can’t be dicounted imo.

Do you give Stl cred for signing Lance Berkman? that guy looked finished after his season in NY.

Same kind of deal.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

There was much more reason

to believe that Berkman could rebound. He had actually performed at a high level over the greater portion of the previous decade. Melky was one of the five worst players in baseball over the previous four seasons. Different cases entirely.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

well,

there was reason to believe that Crispy would workout (besides Nick Schwartz passing his physical). Did you like that move previous to his injury?

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

i dunno...i'd rather have had

melky for 1/7 the price than having berkman playing RF…i thought that then, and i dont think my reasoning was incorrect

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

And that's fair.

There was nothing on Melky’s resume to indicate that he should be worth having on a Major League roster. Berkman had age working against him, but St. Louis is also working in a different economic climate than the Royals. KC could not have afforded to take on Berkman’s bloated salary. Berkman was also brought on board to be the piece to put them over the top, which is a different scenario than what Melky’s signing meant for what KC was trying to do. The wins Berkman was brought in to add were intended to put them in the playoffs.

I’m not saying I agree with bringing him in, but they were not the same situation.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

he was also old and broken down...

signed to play a position he hadnt played for like 5 years and 50 lbs

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Can I sig this?

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!

by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 24, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

If You Mean

Mine, go rigfht ahead. It’s hard to tell here, KIC.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 7:17 PM EST up reply actions  

that is my fear for paulino, yes indeed

he scares the crap out of me. that move was a good one whether it works out or not though.

by BeauJackson on Nov 23, 2011 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Absodamnlutely

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

No Sweat; We

Do that to everyone

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 12:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Partially true

I don’t know you, and you came in guns ablaze with idealistic payroll numbers and criticized a commenter who knew the correct numbers. That was my first impression.

You don’t sounds dumb, which is why I haven’t given up on having a discussion, but I don’t think your points are well-founded. If you have information we don’t have, please share. If you don’t, please listen and respect what others have to say.

by Loose Seal on Nov 23, 2011 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

A poll on whether DM was incompetent led to an overall vote of “No” last offseason. Don’t mistake volume for majority.

by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 23, 2011 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

ok,

my mistake.

Im getting tired of the prison style gang rape here, so I will agree to just about anything at this point.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

"prison style gang rape"

Come on, dude. Please don’t compare message board discussions to violent violations of your body. Ridiculous.

by OnixConcepcion on Nov 23, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

That's right

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

It was dooblay

In the Jim Wong Vol. I discussion.

by Tito42 on Nov 24, 2011 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh yeah.

What a dick.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Scissoring Is So

2008.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions  

just an expression onix

to say Im being ganged up on here is an understatement, so I embellished.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

come on,

that was obviously a joke.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

He just did.

looks down as a tear forms and trickles down his stubbled cheek

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

No, they're an assault on taste and decency.

Their place should be limited to the beach/pool. Sandals at bar = begging for me to “drop” my bottle of beer on the floor next to your naked feet.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions  

To get you up to speed...

I hate sandals. I believe that real men do not wear them. Real men can be bothered to do things like put on a pair of shoes before they go out into the world. When I see people at bars wearing sandals, I become incensed, for reasons including but not limited to hygiene, common sense, and decorum.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Some consider me insane for this.

Others are on board. I tend to think of those who are on board with this deeply rooted belief as Men. Others likely go out to lunch wearing sandals and pajamas like godless heathens.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions  

what about

socks with sandals? that always cracked me up. I have purchased sandals in my life, I just never ended up wearing them much….

Can girls wear them?

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Girls can wear whatever the hell they want.

I tend to think that wearing flip-flops on the street or at a bar is insane for health reasons.

Socks with sandals is just as bad. Somehow pity enters into the equation with these poor saps, though.

I do believe that sandals have their place. That place is at the beach or at the pool or in the gym shower.

Sandals being worn because one is too lazy to put on socks and shoes is simply sad and indicates to me that the offending party has given up on trying to act like an adult.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions  

what did you think about

Plaxico wearing sweatpants to nightclub he shot himself at?

I won’t go to my mailbox in sweatpants.

by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

ohh....i wear one of my three pairs of

crazy comfortable puma sweatpants all over the place…with flip flops of course

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

(points to BBB in an aside)

(whispers) He’s making my case for me.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, nothing about me screams grown-up

I’m not married (GF for 13 years). I’ve got no kids. I own no homes. I work in the service industry driving boats. I waste my life writing on the internet.

I can, however, be bothered to put on a pair of goddamn pants and socks and shoes to interact with people in public, even though my feet are not grotesque in any way (unlike most of those dirty damned sandal-wearers).

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm on board with the sandals hate

I love sandals but only on the beach, in the park or at home. They are not appropriate for public outings.

by Loose Seal on Nov 23, 2011 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

stupid SBNation formatting

there were asterisks before “looks” and after “cheek”

joke ruined

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions  

He gets paid a nice pile of money to do his job

he better be able to handle some criticism on the internet.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Nov 24, 2011 9:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Baseball operations

According to a source that I have forgotten. The Royals spent 94.3%(over 150) of that 160 million on their total baseball operations. So it’s not that they don’t have it, it’s how they spend it.

by R_F on Nov 24, 2011 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

2013 Payroll projects even higher without adding anyone outside the system

$30 million in guaranteed contracts for Butler, Frenchy, Chen, Arguelles, plus Soria’s option. I would assume Gordon, Hochevar, Paulino, Pena, and arbitration newcomer Alcides Escobar get at least $16 million with another year of arbitration raises. (Again, I think that is too low, but let’s go with it for now). I am not sure what happens with Crow — he will not be aribitration eligible, but he would have already made $1 million based on his draft deal, so while the team could cut it, I will assume he gets another $1 million. The 15 other roster spots get $7.35 million (15 x $0.490 league minimum), and there should be another $1.5 million for DL players. That gets us to — yikes — $55.85 million.

by Gopherballs on Nov 23, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, I agree

I was making a point about the possibility of extending Gordon.

They really can’t quite be “done” yet, since they are pretty obviously interested in extending Gordon, and should be. If they do, they are putting themselves into the position of having to “backload” an extension in a typical manner, which decreases payroll flexibility down the road, too.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 23, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

oh yeah, I got the point

just adding that a Gordon extension gets trickier when payroll gets even tighter in 2013 due in part to the Chen extension

by Gopherballs on Nov 23, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

"Guys just play harder when he's on the mound"

“The guy just knows how to win.”

“He’s a Lefty.”

Thoughts running through GMDM’s mind

Do these effectively hide my thunder?

by splitty on Nov 23, 2011 6:18 PM EST reply actions  

Also

“This guy used to pitch for the Braves.”

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 23, 2011 7:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Also

“A 3.77 ERA is very good!”

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 23, 2011 9:37 PM EST up reply actions  

also

he has a good WHIP

(so let’s hope Mike Fast is right)

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:24 AM EST up reply actions  

He led our team in winzzz!!!!!

I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.

by mitchfreakingmaier! on Nov 25, 2011 12:51 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

What does this do for us getting a new starter?

"Stay Classy Kansas City"
- Ricky Stanzi to the rescue!

by Mas Cervezas on Nov 23, 2011 6:35 PM EST reply actions  

Just a prediction, but I doubt it

Even if it ends our pursuit of Jurrjens, it won’t stop the Braves and their mouthpieces from acting like we’re still in on him in order to start an artificial bidding war.

by moregritplease on Nov 23, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Where is the thinking of Hochevar being a #4?

I can’t see Paulino being ahead of him and maybe not Sanchez. He was the opening day starter and didn’t put in too bad of a performancr especially the second half. Not to mention our love of “sticking to our guys.”

I’m thinking it as more Hooch/Chen/Sanchez/Paulino.

(Void this whole post if the original post was just listing their names and not rotation projection)

by KCTiger on Nov 23, 2011 6:50 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

In short it is because Luke Hochevar sucks

In 96 starts with the Royals he has a 5.34 ERA, the exact same mark as Kyle Davies. Yes, he had a good end of the season last year, but he is not the only bad pitcher to put up 2 months of decent pitching and I need to see more.

Don’t get me wrong, we don’t have a legit #1 or #2 starter, but even comparing him to the other pitchers on this team, he falls well short in actual performance. If he had not been a high draft pick, he would have spent some of the last few years in the minors or competing for the #4 slot.

"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance

by KHAZAD on Nov 23, 2011 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Dude, he's totally fixed now

[everyone including me, 2011, 2010, 2009]

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 23, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

And in fairness

The gulf between our #1 and #4 is pretty miniscule.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 23, 2011 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

FYP

The gulf between our 4 #1 and #4’s is pretty miniscule

(don’t worry, I know you know this)

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Dude's been solid for us when healthy. I don't hate this like most.

Okay, well maybe we should tell that to Rain Man, because he practically bankrupted a casino, and he was a ri-tard.

by Clearly Ambiguous on Nov 23, 2011 7:05 PM EST reply actions  

This is pretty much my thinking.

The other issue is: Let it go to arbitration or let him sign elsewhere and grab that pick.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, I don't mind having Chen on the team

but $9 million guaranteed is something we did not have to do. I don’t think he was getting that kind of offer from anyone else. Add to that the loss of the comp pick and you have a bad deal.

Only once in his career has he logged more than last year’s 155 innings so at best you are looking at 80% of a starting pitcher.

"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance

by KHAZAD on Nov 23, 2011 7:19 PM EST reply actions  

Better Chen than Farnsworth.

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Nov 23, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

The BLUES CHAIN


It can never be broken.

"On the last day of your life, don't forget to die."

- David Berman

by Crooow on Nov 23, 2011 7:37 PM EST reply actions  

So I assume it's been established that Crow will work for that 5th starter spot?

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....

by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 7:51 PM EST reply actions  

Just as an FYI

https://twitter.com/#!/SI_JonHeyman/statuses/136830129644113920

“bruce chen has multiyear offers. #royals, cubs among teams talking to him.”

Note—PLURAL on offers.

by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 23, 2011 7:59 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

This is what makes all this...

…bitching and moaning about how we gave him too much garbage.

"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

by timlacy on Nov 23, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Really??

The fact that a well-known shill for the Boras Corporation floats a random tweet that the Cubs have given Chen an “offer” (for how much? how many years?) automatically ends all argument that Dayton was outnegotiated/jumped the gun for Chen’s services?

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions  

him having other offers makes it MORE of a mistake b/c getting the Type B pick was more likely

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:28 AM EST up reply actions  

"Heynan is a mouthpiece for Boras?

I feel shocked and betrayed!" – Dayton Moore

"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance

by KHAZAD on Nov 23, 2011 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

Before everyone freaks the freak out, let’s wait to see what the final market values for pitching end up being, OK. Consider as well that next year free agency might see a run up in FA salaries if spending on the draft and international is restricted in 2013.

by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 23, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't see anybody "freaking out."

I see a lot of people saying it is not a move they like that much b/c it seems a bit too early to make the move and might be a little bit too much money.

I do see some people jumping the gun with the “oh you guys just complain about everything” schtick though.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

So Bruce Chen makes an extra million or two

All it means in Glass makes a little less money. Maybe DM looked at the lower range options and decided Chen was the best of a bad lot and decided not to try and squeeze a million bucks out of him.

by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 23, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

How do you figure that?

Let’s say DM plays hardball with Chen, makes him sweat, and gets him for 2/8. All that does is give Glass another mil.

by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 23, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Glass will not sacrifice his profits for the team.

I think GMDM gets a pretty strict budget, and any $ spent/saved on Chen come’s out of Moore’s allowance.

by Loose Seal on Nov 23, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

The comp pick, alone, makes this dumb.

Chen is not special. There are other middling starting pitchers in the world. I have no doubt that a two-year deal for $9M could have landed someone else of similar talent.

Why not sign that guy and keep the comp pick? Why?

There is no reason at all. The comp pick had real value to this team. Now it is gone… for absolutely no reason at all.

There is no justifying that. It’s stupid, stupid, stupid.

by kcemigre on Nov 23, 2011 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Nothing

But the point is that other pitchers of Chen’s quality/production would be available, and possibly for less than a 2-year commitment. And signing one of them would not have resulted in losing a draft pick.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I want the comp pick.

The compensation pick for a type-B free agent returns an excess value somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 million dollars. (The average value in 2009 was $2.6M, adjusted for salary inflation, I bet it’s pretty close to $3M by now).

So, Chen just cost:

$9M on the contract;
$1M for the roster bonus;
at least $2.6 for the forgone pick;
and up to $1M in incentives.

You are looking as something very close to $7M per year there… for Bruce Chen.

Dayton could have signed Francis. Dayton could have signed Capuano. Dayton could have signed any number of other guys who are quite likely to be just as good as Chen without costing $7M per year for two years.

It is basically impossible to make a good deal if the first step in the deal is to flush $3M down the toilet. And that is exactly what Dayton just did.

by kcemigre on Nov 23, 2011 8:48 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

No one is freaking out

We might not be jumping for joy, but it’s not like Chen is a CY Young guy

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....

by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Royals Facebook just announced it

OFFICIAL

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....

by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Goddammit.

This news just made me burn my dinner.

I’m getting more pissed at Dayton by the minute.

by kcemigre on Nov 23, 2011 8:35 PM EST reply actions  

OT:

Has anyone listned to the Royalman report? I refuse to, because I can’t stand the guy. But is it worth my time to give it a shot?

Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095

by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 8:45 PM EST reply actions  

Who's Royalman?

That skinny mailman?

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....

by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

You're thinking of Chris Superfan...

…Royalman is his buddy… the guy in the cape.

by kcemigre on Nov 23, 2011 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh Lord

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....

by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 9:03 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I've listened to some of them, the most interesting one was when they had a K-crew member on

and how Frenchy protected them from obnoxious fans. He is just that good of a leader.

Go Royals!

by BabyBlues on Nov 23, 2011 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I like a lot of the Kings of Kauffman guys, generally.

It’s their podcast with Troy.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah... Not a fan of Troy.

Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095

by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I know you've gotten into it with him on Facebook.

I’ve certainly gotten into it with him on Twitter—not in an acrimonious way—but we don’t always see eye-to-eye, and I’ve certainly gotten into protracted arguments, mostly about decorum, which is funny since I am a fan of cursing and saying somewhat inflammatory things.

That said, I don’t dislike him at all. We get along well enough on Twitter and interact fairly frequently, for whatever that’s worth.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:19 PM EST up reply actions  

For me...

Its a matter of him not understanding the difference of being dismissive of some of the ridiculous things he says, and him retaliating in name calling.

I’ll admit I can be an asshole about the stuff he says, but I never attack him personally, its always the argument, on many occasions he flat out just loses it and starts name calling.

Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095

by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I can see where that would be problematic.

That’s mostly where I’ve taken issue with some of the things he says. I do consider myself web-friends with Mike Engel and Jeff Herr, Kamler is generally pretty funny, and I’m on good terms with Troy most of the time.

I’m certainly not going to feed a fractious fire largely because I don’t see a point to it.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095

by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Nude or clothed?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Nov 23, 2011 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Technically,

I don’t think they’re “friends.” Kindred spirits? Likely.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:12 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm listening to the new one right now.

Goldstein is on for an hour.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

But are they good?

As said above, I have personal beef with one of the guys, and I’d rather not even give them the click unless its really worth my time… And I hate the way he uses that fucking podcast to prove his points.

Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095

by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm listening to the one largely because of Goldstein's presence.

He’s on for an hour talking about the Royals. I listen to Up and In regularly, so I just get to hear Goldstein talking about the Royals for an hour.

I don’t feel like the podcast is all Troy. This episode is pretty good so far. If I were doing a podcast, I might do some things differently, but it’s not my show.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

A friend of mine, and I are talking about doing a podcast.

Im all for it… Not really sure what the tone of it would be.

Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095

by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I've had the conversation with two of my friends.

Not a Royals podcast. Pop culture.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Same here...

Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095

by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:39 PM EST up reply actions  

$11 Taco Bell choices?

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Nov 23, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

booooooooo!

this move stinks. i have nothing more to offer.

by BeauJackson on Nov 23, 2011 9:00 PM EST reply actions  

We could do worse!

We always do!

"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"

by NHZ on Nov 23, 2011 9:10 PM EST reply actions  

On the plus side, this probably means

that he goes into the Hall as a Royal.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 23, 2011 9:26 PM EST reply actions  

The Panamanian Baseball Hall of Fame ceremony is going to be special.

He’s just 15 wins behind the all-time leader in wins for a Panamanian (Mariano Rivera is the leader with 75).

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

You ain't partied

until you’ve experienced the joy of Panamanian Induction.

"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance

by KHAZAD on Nov 23, 2011 9:33 PM EST up reply actions  

You've got that right. If Panamanian's know one thing, its how to induct.

what is your favorite induction stage? The ceviche, the hot rub from Roberto Duran, or the ceremonial cleansing in the 2nd sect of canal locks?

by Nighthawk at the Diner on Nov 24, 2011 7:59 AM EST up reply actions  

"Dayton why did you re-sign Chen man?"

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....

by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 9:32 PM EST reply actions  

Classic me photo fail

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....

by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 9:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Retro

You seem to have left off SOS in your potential starting lineup of pitchers.

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Nov 23, 2011 10:42 PM EST reply actions  

I guess I dont understand why there is a guaranteed pick?

We hadnt offered chen arbitration yet. What was the estimate on his payout? And whose to say chen doesn’t accept arb? Lots of unknowns. Don’t get me wrong bc I’d love that pick.

by 306008 on Nov 23, 2011 10:43 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

If he does accept arb, he's only on the books for 2012.

This is guaranteed money in 2013, too, which is where most are taking umbrage. Either the compensatory pick or Chen on the rolls for 2012 is much better than Chen guaranteed money for the next two years since he could blow out his elbow/shoulder this season and be a payroll suck for an entire season where the Royals may well be competitive.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, if Chen had accepted arb...

…that would at least mean that Dayton did it the right way. Regardless of what else happens/happened, we do know that Chen was offered a two-year deal by the Royals. That move is completely inconsistent with even trying to get the comp pick. So, we do at least know that DM spit on the comp pick. Whether it would have worked out that way or not, we can’t say.

For the record, I think he would have declined arb in an effort to get a two-year deal. But yeah, I don’t know that.

by kcemigre on Nov 23, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

don't mind chen so much

he does a decent enough job, and the $/WAR seems reasonable for 2012 at least…don’t understand the 2nd year and don’t understand forsaking the comp pick…unnecessary move by Dayton.

Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

--Albert Einstein

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Nov 23, 2011 11:43 PM EST reply actions  

Chen...

You ma ma make me happy!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/kDnJdNOMgXc/SLtdw4a-fHI/AAAAAAAAAms/Vnc5Cx5zRug/s400/simplejack.jpg

I hope this works..

Cap it, and watch the players association strike it. http://budtheclark.mlblogs.com/

by ChosenOneK on Nov 23, 2011 11:49 PM EST reply actions  

Well...

I wanted the actual picture to show….the link is pointless…..Ben Stiller as ‘Simple Jack’

Cap it, and watch the players association strike it. http://budtheclark.mlblogs.com/

by ChosenOneK on Nov 23, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Were you on a plane or something?

I’ve been waiting for this all night.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Doing some pre-cooking for Thanksgiving

…and this is the thanks I get.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

I was brining the turkey and doing some other prep while listening to Goldstein talk Royals prospects

and then got in front of the computer to see this. Grrr. Arrgh.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

It's a real kick in the nuts

This is another one of those “I’ll give Dayton the benefit of the doubt that he won’t make this mistake. Sure he makes a lot of mistakes like this, but he surely won’t punt the comp pick and give Chen two guaranteed years, will he?” Even when I think he can’t let me down, Dayton lets me down.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with all the complaints

One contingency that might explain it, mentioned by billexgordler, (I’m not trying to defend DM, just making sure we consider all the possibilities), is what if Chen said he was going to accept arb unless they gave him 2 years? Then the Type B pick was a moot point, and it’s just a matter of the committing 2 years (hard to see how that makes sense).

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Even if Chen/Boras said they were definitely going to accept arb, this deal makes no sense

The Royals have the payroll flexibility to easily afford Chen this year (even at potentially $6M, but $5M would have been the more likely number, perhaps less). But for 2013, things are tighter given contract raises and likely arbitration awards. And if the Royals want to go out and get a good FA or two, any millions that you tie up for 2013 makes that harder.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 8:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Plus the KC media is all on board.

Dutton was pointing out how if you only look at his 24 wins the last two years, that puts him tied for 14th in the AL, and with fewer starts then any of the others.

ACE!!!

Go Royals!

by BabyBlues on Nov 24, 2011 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Zing!

I’m glad someone else posted that joke so I didn’t have to.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions  

YOU BITCH

Don’t you know DM has a family!!!

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 24, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Actually laughed out loud there.

Cackled even.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Hey, he's a really nice guy and bright too. How dare we criticize him?

He’ll probably never give an interview to any of us ingrates.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Had to skip through a bunch of them

I can’t believe there was a long discussion on the Chen signing that led to skinny comments on the right hand side and I wasn’t in it at all. I feel empty inside now.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I like it -

lets me know when i can skip ahead

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:39 AM EST up reply actions  

It's the same old shit.

People wanting to make grand statements about how we at Royals Review hate Dayton Moore and never give him credit, blah blah blah.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes,

it’s tiresome being you, Scott.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions  

if you like bald assertions that the royals will have a $90MM payroll, it's for you

if you like thoughtful analysis regarding how best to spend our GMDM quoted$55-$60MM-budget next year, and in 2013, then you won’t

by Loose Seal on Nov 24, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions  

oops

not meant to be striked-out

by Loose Seal on Nov 24, 2011 12:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Lame

Not exactly what i said.

by Crowncola on Nov 24, 2011 12:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Pretty close to it.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Nov 24, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

In the words of Crowncola:

Go dig up your 55 mil quote. I would like to see it, b/c I don’t think it happened.

by Loose Seal on Nov 24, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Dayton Moore really does love giving multi-year deals to mediocre players for which there isn't much of a market

Gload
Farnsworth
Bloomquist
Francoeur
Chen
Kendall

“This guy’s so mediocre, I’d better lock him down for two years!” — Dayton Moore

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:22 AM EST reply actions  

Which is the worst?

I’d have to say Gload, but it might be Kendall.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Kendall.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Nov 24, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

The Chiefs are still enough below cap that I suppose it's not a horrible thing,

other than that he would be blocking Stanzi from getting a few spot starts (but I kind of doubt the team would have gone that route anyway.)

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!

by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 24, 2011 1:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Except Orton should bring back a 4th round compensatory pick.

Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095

by averagegatsby on Nov 24, 2011 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

how?

you mean if some other team signs him in the offseason?

by Bronzillo on Nov 24, 2011 1:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes. More like when another team signs him.

He isn’t going to be unemployed, barring serious injury, and indications are he doesn’t really want to be in KC.

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!

by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 24, 2011 1:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Yep...

Its a win win scenario really. Either Orton plays well and the Chiefs have a replacement, or they let him walk and take the extra pick.

Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095

by averagegatsby on Nov 24, 2011 1:31 AM EST up reply actions  

others can explain further, but any FA signed away gets compensated by an extra pick

decided by the NFL FO, weighted by how good they decide the player is, I think. If you sign FA away from other teams, that works against the FA’s you lost.

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I HATE this.

I’m also a Broncos fan (primarily a Broncos fan for most of my life…I’ve sinced switched allegiance to the Cheifs since living in KC for a while). Orton did absolutely zip for the team. He offers no upside whatsoever. I think Cassel is easily better than him. Remember, Orton got benched for Rex Bipolar Grossman for an entire season. He’s not much better now. That should speak to you about his talent level.

by Yodazilla on Nov 24, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions  

his career #s aren't terrible

and despite his win/loss, it looked like he was still playing decent.

by Bronzillo on Nov 24, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise... uninspired off-season moves, that is what I am thankful for.

Last chance to take advantage of Type B status and get a draft pick for a mid-30s swing man, so instead you more than double his pay and guarantee him two years… brilliant! Of course this type of move will appease the droopy eyed, arm less children until Bruce goes under the knife in May.

by wcg1380 on Nov 24, 2011 1:23 AM EST reply actions  

Fuck yes

We love u Chen. One of my bullet points from the DVD contest comes true!

I am the one who knocks.

by PhattStairs on Nov 24, 2011 1:52 AM EST reply actions  

The real reason

Is so he can be Darvish’s translator…they both speak Asian right?

by NobodyFsWDeJesus on Nov 24, 2011 6:55 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

Chen Speaks Central

American, too.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

those comment in the middle

too thin; didn’t read

I am probably the only Royals fan in Hong Kong?

by Yamfun Cheng Kamfun on Nov 24, 2011 10:11 AM EST reply actions  

Very wise.

Having been around when they were going on, it was a waste of an evening.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 25, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

What about Montgomery?

Seriously. Rotation, as of now, will be

Hochevar
Paulino
Sanchez
Chen
Duffy/Crow

What happens when Montgomery’s ready? There aren’t any Kyle Davies-like people on that list. While not lighting up the world, that rotation is arguably likely to be average (an improvement over years past). Who do you pull for Montgomery? Assuming someone’s injured, what happens when the injured person comes back?

I realize that good teams face this issue all the time with prospects. But the issue I have with Chen’s 2 year deal is that it seems he will end up blocking people. Odorizzi, Montgomery, Lamb, Dwyer, and ideally Crow would all debut within the next two years in the rotation (hopefully). Assuming Sanchez is gone, that leaves a grand total of 1 spot open in the rotation.

by Yodazilla on Nov 24, 2011 11:07 AM EST reply actions  

That rotation is average if a lot goes well.

 Hochevar had a good half of a season. Paulino was solid, but still just a mid-rotation guy most likely. Sanchez is a huge question mark. Chen is a back-end guy. Duffy is a question mark. Crow got fatigued and faded as a reliever last year..no reason to put any stock in his ability to be a starter next year. Montgomery struggled in AAA last year, he’s a question mark at best for the 2012 season.

Saying that rotation is “likely to be average” is a huge stretch.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 24, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I didn't say they were likely to be average.

I said that they are “arguably likely to be average.” There is a decent case to be made that they are average, whether you think so or not. A big reason that case can be made is that none of them have to actually be any particularly good to be an average rotation.

Will it happen? Maybe. But I’d say that its almost a lock that the Royals 2012 rotation will be better-perhaps significantly-than the 2011 rotation.

by Yodazilla on Nov 24, 2011 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t say they were likely to be average.
I said that they are "arguably likely to be average."

You’re splitting hairs.

There is a decent case to be made that they are average, whether you think so or not

I don’t think a good statistical argument can be made that that rotation is likely to be average. And if statistics don’t support it, then I don’t know what the basis of this “decent case” is.
A big reason that case can be made is that none of them have to actually be any particularly good to be an average rotation.

I think we all know what average means. And if none of them are particularly good, in order for the rotation to be average overall, then each of those 5 pitchers (plus fill-ins) would have to be about average. That is exceedingly unlikely.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh...

I’m not splitting hairs, but the difference is subtle.

I didn’t get the memo as to what we all know what average means….seriously, what do you think it means? I’m taking average to mean an ERA+ of 100 and that’s it (ERA+ because it is simple and good for comparison with the rest of the league). This would mean that, by last year’s numbers, for an average rotation no one would have to pitch any better than a 4.11 ERA.

“Average” also is a somewhat loose term, I think…even a staff ERA+ of 90something would be pretty good. Do you really think that’s not possible?

Hochevar’s 2nd half was the best sustained half of his entire career. As an extreme youngster, Duffy is much, much more likely to improve than stay the same or get worse. Sanchez’s BB rate is a run over his career BB rate and looks like an outlier; even a small drop in walks would help him rebound. These developments are, to me, promising. Do you not think so?

by Yodazilla on Nov 25, 2011 5:21 AM EST up reply actions  

We’re talking about average pitching performance. And I wouldn’t measure pitching performance by ERA, as that doesn’t do a good job of measuring what the pitcher actually does. It includes a lot of defense and even some relief pitching.

This would mean that, by last year’s numbers, for an average rotation no one would have to pitch any better than a 4.11 ERA.

And, equally importantly, no one would have to pitch any worse than a 4.11 ERA. And this is exceedingly unlikely.
"Average" also is a somewhat loose term, I think…even a staff ERA+ of 90something would be pretty good. Do you really think that’s not possible?

An ERA+ of 90 is considerably below average. That’s at about the level of an average #4 SP. Do I think it is possible that this rotation could be 10% below average? Sure.

Yes there is some talent in this rotation and there were some promising developments last year. But that’ doesn’t mean that it is likely that the rotation will be league average next year.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 25, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

At some point you have to actually reward your players

for performing. I know in the stathead universe, xFIP, and $/WAR, along with age curve progression are the be all end all. However at some point you need to send a message to players that if you perform you will be compensated. This was the same motivation for the Butler extension and for the ongoing negotiations with Alex Gordon.

Do I believe that Chen was going to get more than 1 yr at 4 million with a club option @ 5 for the second year? Probably not.. After all he was available for a C+ prospect at the last 2 deadlines and nobody offered. But at the same time he did his job. I don’t know how many of you work for organizations that screw you over on compensation because of your perceived market value when you are performing well above expectations but it typically leads to a poisonous environment. We basically gave a guy who produced our best ERA over the last 2 years 1 million dollars more than a Nebraska dual threat QB who hasn’t been tested against real HS baseball competition.

This team has enough raw talent in the pipeline to win the next 3-4 years; now the intangibles matter; clubhouse chemistry; morale; player ego management take a role.. A bad clubhouse on a 70 win team means you win 65 games(who cares?); A bad clubhouse on a 90 win team means you miss the playoffs.

by dyehardfan on Nov 24, 2011 11:20 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

We need to send a message that if you perform well you will be compensated afterwards?

Horseshit. Once players start giving the team back some of their salary when they suck, then we can start paying players based on past performance. This “we need to pay players who did well for us in the past” argument is just wrong.

Butler was extended b/c they think he’s going to be good during the duration of his new contract. Same with Gordon if he’s extended. You NEVER pay for past performance. You pay for future performance.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Nov 24, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Couldn't agree with this more

And I really wish the “give money back when you start sucking” would apply specifically to the Francoeur extension.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 24, 2011 3:20 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions   1 recs

I mean, it's nice that Meche did it. It really is.

But it resulted in a New York Times feature for a reason.

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!

by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 24, 2011 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Jeff King too.

Guys will walk away from millions to avoid being Royals.

by Dadunca on Nov 26, 2011 1:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Chris And Larry

Johnson beg to differ.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Any team who signs Pujols not named STL

Will be doing exactly that. Paying for past performance.

by Bronzillo on Nov 24, 2011 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

When you pay

3 million to some 16YO kid in the DR, 9 million over 2 years for a proven ML pitcher isn’t so bad

by R_F on Nov 24, 2011 3:32 PM EST reply actions  

In case you didn’t figure it out, I was pointing out that R_F’s “logic” was that “9 million over 2 years for a proven ML pitcher isn’t bad.” If “proven ML pitcher” is his only criteria, then there are many crappy pitchers that fit that. You need to look deeper. You need to look at meaningful stats, not just ERA and pitcher wins. You need to take age into account. You need to account for injury history. And for Chen, that certainly doesn’t add up to $9M over 2 years. That is, unless you’re Dayton Moore.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

You're assuming that "Proven ML pitcher" is the only criteria

by which R_F was judging him. Obviously there are other factors, and obviously Moyer for that money would not be good (unless Moyer is in fact immortal, which is possible). I think he knew that, as do you and I.

by Yodazilla on Nov 25, 2011 5:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not assuming anything. I'm going only by the words he posted.

Yes, there are other factors. And it is those other factors where Bruce Chen falls short.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 25, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions  

but could break a hip falling out of bed

Come on, he is one of the oldest pitchers in the 150 year history of baseball and he missed all of last season with major arm surgery.

Im guessing he doesn’t get more than a minorleague deal with a ST invite.

by Bronzillo on Nov 24, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Out of curiousity...

…how do you know what a “proven ML pitcher” is worth this year?

And, frankly, I don’t see a whole lot of people in here complaining about the price of the Chen contract. Maybe there’s just so many other things wrong with this deal that no one has gotten around to addressing the price, but I doubt it.

I wouldn’t have a problem with paying a pitcher $9M over two years… even a pitcher of roughly Chen’s abilities. If that were the real cost of this signing, I’d be perfectly happy. That isn’t the real cost, though, and the signing was dumb.

by kcemigre on Nov 24, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

you'll see the point of this all when the Royals win 79 instead of 78 next year.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 24, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

mrs. cogan says

she likes the chen signing….he’s a nice guy. “now we have two nice guys on the team”.

$50 schrute bucks for the first person on here who can guess who the other “nice guy” is.

Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."

--Albert Einstein

by Home Run Tony Cogan on Nov 24, 2011 5:17 PM EST reply actions  

There's no reason to give mediocre talent multiple guaranteed years

Because mediocre talent can be found on cheap one-year deals every year. They are easily replaceable. But when Dayton falls in love with a chunk of grit, he wants to lock it down for as long as possible.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 7:47 PM EST reply actions  

Ne he doesn't.

It is not an infinate contract, it is not even a lifetime contract.

Go Royals!

by BabyBlues on Nov 25, 2011 1:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Just based on xFIP...

How do the Royals compete in the AL Central?

Tigers xFIP
Verlander 3.12
Scherzer 3.70
Porcello 4.02
Penny 4.77
Fister 2.75
Total: 18.36

Indians xFIP
Masterson 3.64
Tomlin 4.03
Carmona 4.17
Ubaldo 3.81
Carrasco 4.07
Total: 19.72

White Sox xFIP
Buehrle 3.98
Floyd 3.81
Danks 3.82
Peavy 3.52
Sale 3.00
Total: 18.13

Royals xFIP
Hochevar 4.05
Chen 4.68
Paulino 3.74
Sanchez 4.36
Crow 3.34
Total: 20.17

Twins xFIP
Pavano 4.14
Duensing 4.05
Blackburn 4.32
Baker 3.61
Liriano 4.52
Total: 20.64

Switch Duffy for Crow, and it gets even worse for the Royals. Of course, this is using 2011 xFIPs and thus is a very crude estimation. But it puts the Royals in 4th in the AL Central.

What this says is that the Royals did not improve the starting rotation, which was priority #1 this offseason. Adding Jonathan Sanchez is not enough…in fact, it made our rotation worse from a xFIP perspective (switching Sanchez for Francis).

These Royals starters do not strike fear into the heart of opponents like the starters on other teams. How many of them would you draft in a fantasy baseball draft? Maybe a late round flyer on Paulino? Maybe Sanchez for some K’s? That’s about it. We still need a big impact starter. You have to go through 34 AL starters ranking in WAR before you get to the first Royals starter:

Sabathia 7.1 WAR
Verlander
Haren
Wilson
Weaver
Fister
Hernandez
Masterson
Shields
McCarthy
Price
Beckett
Harrison
Lester
Holland
Floyd
Ogando
Gonzalez
Humber
Morrow
Buehrle
Pineda
Santana
Danks
Jackson
Peavy
Colon
Romero
Pavano
Scherzer
Porcello
Baker
Nova
Paulino 2.6 WAR

This must change. Back when the Royals were in the playoffs, we had great starting pitching (Splitt, Leonard, Busby, Gura, Saberhagen, Gubicza, Liebrandt, Gordon, Black, etc.)

I just don’t see how we can compete with what we have now…nothing is going to change, even if we have a great hitting team, we won’t have the starting pitching to compete in 2012.

Thoughts?
David

by david.lowe on Nov 25, 2011 1:41 AM EST reply actions  

First off, you can't add Crow's xFIP in because he was a reliver, so basically add 1.00 to his xFIP.

     So the Royals are actually dead last. But you can’t just look at last year’s xFIP, you have to average more years into that to get an accurate picture. Still, it doesn’t look too good for the Royals. If you don’t do that, the task looks pretty daunting, as the difference between the Royals and the White Sox is about 300 runs. This would have to be made up with the offense, defense, relief core, base running, and luck combined over our divisional foes. One piece of good news is that luck is on our side. It is more likely that injuries do more damage to our foes then to us. Our starters are closer to replacement level, and our position players are younger. The other is that starters pitch in less high leverage situations, so that 300 runs is actully not really worth 30 wins of difference, it is more like 25 wins.

Go Royals!

by BabyBlues on Nov 25, 2011 2:39 AM EST up reply actions  

yes, but you can subtract 1.5 to Chen's xFIP

now that he doesn’t have to worry about his financial security and whether he’ll have to subsist on a diet of Alpo and ramen noodles

batter nine you sucky

by marbotty on Nov 25, 2011 7:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Right, that’s why I stated using last year’s xFIP is a “very crude estimation” for 2012.

Good point about our starters being closer to replacement level, and thus if our opponents have a starter or two go down with injury it is much more damaging to them that it is to the Royals to lose one to injury.

by david.lowe on Nov 25, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

That's just good strategery

If you have lots of guys who suck, then when one of the starting sucky guys goes down, you’re covered.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 25, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Suckage Is Suckage

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Nov 25, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I've always thought that the best move would be to develop the in-house guys.

Give Crow/Montgomery this year enough time to make starts and find out about them/develop them. Two possible good pitchers for free—THEN make a move.

Everyone has such a short memory. We did have a fantastic starting pitcher—his name is Zack Greinke. What if the Royals refused to trade him? That’s likely 5 WAR right there. Can you imagine how awesome would it be to have this September’s lineup with Greinke pitching?

The Royals had an ace. To trade for a ‘top starting pitcher’ a year after trading Greinke is extremely shortsided. So I don’t think the Royals should go get someone.

by Yodazilla on Nov 25, 2011 5:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I like this strategy, Yoda

But if this is the strategy, then I don’t believe 2012 is the year for contention.

Guys like Chen, Sanchez, Hochevar, and the 2011 version of Duffy aren’t going to get it done, even in this weak division.

I think about the Hudson, Mulder, Zito era of the A’s. It took them about 3 years to begin dominating, if I recall correctly. Our version of Hudson, Mulder, Zito could be Montgomery, Duffy, Crow…maybe a Lamb or Dwyer thrown once they’re ready.

by david.lowe on Nov 25, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions  

It'll take time, yes

Next year’s free agent market should be better for starters, even considering some of them signing extensions. Then the Royals should make a move.

I keep hoping and praying the return of Greinke will occur in 2013…it could happen if the Brewers lose Fielder and begin a downward trend. It would be so fitting for him to return to the Royals.

by Yodazilla on Nov 25, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

This is a reasonable move

Critics and stat heads will always have something bad to say. It is the safe play. If the guy fumbles, you made the call already. If he works out, oh well, Dayton was lucky, good for the Royals, he is still an idiot. Dayton has to sign folks that are willing to play here and for a low price to boot. This being the case, you have to deal early. Waiting restricts your pool even further, and in the Royals case, drives up the price of the available talent. This is basic supply and demand, the Royals have the demand, but very limited supply.

So, what does this signing really say? The free agent pool the Royals can draw on is very shallow. Chen, in all likelihood, is the highest quality FA pitcher willing to don Royal Blue. In a case like this, 9M over 2 years for a guy that can be useful to the team is a good deal.

by PeteThecow on Nov 25, 2011 11:10 AM EST reply actions  

1/5 would have been better

Chen declining the arbitration offer and getting a compensatory draft pick would have been even better. There was no good reason to give him two guaranteed years.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Nov 25, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions  

It is not a reasonable move.

Chen isn’t special. He’s a decent pitcher, but there’s plenty of decent pitchers in the world. What makes Chen different from all of those other guys this year is that we had to give up a compensation pick to sign him. If you add the value of that compensation pick to the contract that Chen just signed, the real cost of this deal is somewhere in the neighborhood of $14M.

In an earlier thread, we discussed other guys who could take “Chen’s spot” in our rotation. Most of them are likely to have similar value (some higher, some lower) to Chen in 2012, and a few of them are long-shots with higher upside that Chen (e.g. Bedard), but none of them would have cost a compensation pick:

Erik Bedard
Chris Capuano
Jeff Francis
Freddy Garcia
Aaron Harang
Livan Hernandez
Paul Maholm
Jason Marquis
Joel Pineiro

From that list, I think my first choice would be either Capuano or Francis on a one-year deal. But the details aren’t particularly important. What matters is this: I have no doubt—no doubt at all—that there are better ways to spend $14M somewhere on that (non-exhaustive) list. You could probably get two or three of the guys on that list for $14M if you were willing to spend the money in 2012 instead of over two years and/or if you are willing to take a risk on someone like Bedard. Even if you can’t spend the whole thing this year, I expect you could still have landed any of those guys for less than $7M.

And that brings up another reason this deal was dumb. Why are we signing a pitcher of average talent to a two-year deal in a thin pitching market? The supply of starting pitching is near-universally expected to be stronger next year. By signing a two-year deal now, Dayton has just bought a commodity at the current “seller’s market” price that he won’t be using until next year, after the advent of the next “buyer’s market.”

There really is no way to call this signing a reasonable move unless you completely ignore the context in which it happened.

by kcemigre on Nov 25, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

The only reasonable context you can look at for this move is that

it will be considered a good publicity move. Chen is popular with the fans and the KC media. Is the media really having that much of an influence on the Royals personnel decisions?

Go Royals!

by BabyBlues on Nov 26, 2011 1:48 AM EST up reply actions  

So, what does this signing really say?

It says that Dayton Moore still doesn’t get it when it comes to MLB free agency moves.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 25, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Can someone explain to me how a crappy pitcher like Chen wins 24 gms for the crappiest team in the league?

If Chen is so bad, how did he manage to win 24 games in 2 yrs? And, this is a guess, but his run support was nothing but average, correct?

If Chen delivers another ~12 wins, is it not a huge success?

by Kcto on Nov 27, 2011 12:06 PM EST reply actions  

Winzzzz!

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 27, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

'nuff said

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.

by Matt Klaassen on Nov 28, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions  

you cannot be debated

you say it was a stupid move thusis must be and thus DM is an idiot. Next

by its coming on Nov 27, 2011 12:40 PM EST reply actions  

Your handle disturbs me.

It evokes the moment of climax specifically in an extremely awkward way.

Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan

by Old Man Duggan on Nov 27, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Can we make one assumption?

Assuming Davies, Mazzaro, and SOS combine for 0 starts in 2012, the Royals have improved their rotation. If nothing else, addition by subtraction.

by jbrocato on Nov 27, 2011 3:22 PM EST reply actions  

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