Royals Re-Sign Master Chen to Two Year Deal
With compensation for Type B free agents to become a thing of the past in 2013, Dayton Moore thought it would be time to get used to the new CBA now and decided to pass on draft compensation for Type B free agent Bruce Chen by signing Chen to a two year contract worth $9 million in guaranteed money, plus $1 million in a roster bonus and another $1 million in incentives. What, no mutual option? No $25,000 bonus for winning the Cy Young? Jin Wong is dropping the ball.
Chen, originally signed by the Royals as a minor league free agent, was named Royals Pitcher of the Year in 2011, winning 12 games with a 3.77 ERA and 155 innings in 25 starts. He posted a 4.39 FIP and earned 1.9 WAR (per Fangraphs). In three years with the Royals, he has a 25-21 record with a 4.28 ERA in 357 2/3 innings pitched. He has started more games for the Royals than for any of the ten Major League clubs he has pitched for.
The Opening Day rotation is looking like: Chen/Sanchez/Paulino/Hochevar with Danny Duffy battling Aaron Crow, Everett Teaford, Vinsanity Mazzaro, Luis Mendoza and probably Kyle Davies somehow for the fifth spot.
Its all coming together. Mission 2012 is upon us. C'mon Chen.
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Is a "roster bonus" as easy to qualify for as it sounds?
Also, as nice as a 3.77 ERA looks, following it with “5.6 K/9 and 2.9 BB/9” sure reads a lot more like “due for regression.”
Royal love from the Rockies.
Right
There is that.
Royal love from the Rockies.
by AnnoyedGrunt on Nov 23, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
And "Pitcher of the Year"
case closed
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 12:47 AM EST up reply actions
It seems to me it's noramlly an NFL thing
But if the roster bonus has a date that’s far enough back, it’ll allow the team to save a whole million dollars if they end up cutting him.
Kansas City Royals: your 2006 and 2007 NL Central champions!
To repeat
:-|
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 23, 2011 5:19 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
I imagine that you would murder anyone else who tries to do the write-up at Fangraphs
At least you get to continue your unhealthy obsession with Bruce for another two whole years.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
I have already made my peace
with the (Ch)end of an Era.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 23, 2011 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
I guess we finally have our nickname
“Double Down” Dayton
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
Kansas Fuckin' City
and don’t you forget it.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
by Juancho on Nov 24, 2011 4:28 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I don't hate it
Pros:
- Chen is probably a 1-2 WAR pitcher going forward, which means we’re getting him at or below market value (assuming WAR accurately accounts for Chen’s abilities)
- Chen’s skillset plays well at the K
- C’MON CHEN
Cons:
- Pitchers get hurt
- Chen is basically assured a spot in the rotation baring injury, so we can’t upgrade that spot
- Why pay market value for Chen when you can pay below market value for someone else who’s just as good? (we got TWO such players last year in Chen and Francis, so it seems likely it can be done)
And #4 under cons
Why pay market value for TWO YEARS of Chen when you could pay market value for ONE YEAR of equivalent production from someone else (Capuano, Francis, et al.) AND get one of the last comp picks?
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
Veteran presence!
I guess when if he tanks it’s not crippling. But when that is the high point of it, its probably not good.
Edgar knows best.
Depth...
…Is it worth it to pay 4.5 million per year for #3-#5 depth? Given the market, it doesn’t seem horrible to me.
"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.
It's not terrible
Until you realize they have committed to an extra year, when equivalent production would have been available with only a one-year deal. And then there’s the whole forfeiting of an extra pick thing.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
No, but we gave him two years
when we could’ve gotten a similar pitcher for the same money for one year.
More, apparently
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
by buddyball on Nov 23, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yawn
We got a butt load of snow today. I could use some hotter news. Or an overflow girl, preferably the slim-wated dame with the yellow tank top.
Nice and sunny here in BCN
There’s a pile of cats sleeping in the sunny spot on my sofa. Rained like hell earlier in the week, though. This is a dryish climate, about 25 inches of rain a year, and the rain is seasonal in the spring and fall, so we need all we can get. Several years ago we had such a bad drought that we had to import fresh water from the Rhone on these enormous tanker ships just so the city wouldn’t run out.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
On the bright side
All the people who bought “C’mon Chen!” shirts get two more years out of them. Small victories and such.
Two more chances
For the Royals to make a “Bruce Chen Bobble-Head Night” promotion.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
Maybe this will quiet those Jurrjens rumors a bit now
And maybe Moore will focus the rest of the postseason on extending Gordon.
Our dream rotation of Hoch, Paulino, Chen, Sanchez, Duffy is now complete.
Could've been worse...but it's far from good.
I’ll give this move a D+
Killing time until time kills me
A C is average.
I’d call this move a bit below average, but certainly not awful.
Killing time until time kills me
The first year of the deal is a C+ because Chen is cool
$4.5MM for a pitcher like Chen is fine. We had to sign somebody like Chen at some point, but losing the draft pick we could’ve gotten if Chen signed elsewhere takes it back down to a C.
The second year is the killer – $4.5MM committed to an injury-prone, over-performing, old pitcher is a bad move. Especially when we have a limited budget, a handful of pitching prospects that could arrive in 2013, and there is a solid free agent starting pitcher class in 2012.
I agree that this is a D/D+ move.
Well, by signing Chen as a FA
Dayton avoiding having to trade Myers FOR Chen later on. So when you play chess instead of checkers like Dayton, it’s an awesome move.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
the 'DM is an idiot' posts were ok a few years ago
but he has mostly proved them wrong and is on a heck of a run over the last 18 monhts
That ignores the fact...
….that this signing is the work of an idiot.
Frankly, I’ve been pretty easy on DM for a while now, because he hasn’t done anything particularly dumb for a while now.
Then he did this. Criticism of bad moves is completely fair game. Trying to distract for a stupid move by saying that he didn’t do anything particularly stupid in the previous 18 months doesn’t make this signing any less stupid.
And the two-year Francoeur extension wasn't exactly smart
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly
And I think they should be looked at side by side. Dayton set the market for two categories (#4-5 SP and corner OF) and did it before the market really even materialized, especially in Francoeur’s case. The Royals can’t be in the business of setting the market for FAs, and they don’t need to be this offseason.
Even worse, Dayton didn’t upgrade his team in either case. He more doubled what he paid last year, added another year, and can’t realistically hope for anything more in production than what he got last year.
Be patient, be rational and be ruthless to a certain extent. Add Kendall, Blomquist and Gloss to this and you have a pattern of overpaying players because they’re Dayton’s kind of guy.
setting the market???
get back to me after the players sign. You don’t have to go to contract to know the market
you can be debated
this move was terrible because you say so and thus DM is an idiot.
I'm not sure what point (if any) you are making here.
This move isn’t stupid because I say so. This move is stupid for all of the reasons I have explained over and over in this thread and several others over the last month or so—ever since the rumors of a possible two-year deal started circulating. It was a bad move and I have explained why many, many times.
If you would like to address any of those reasons (something you seem to be avoiding), then maybe a debate could happen. But you don’t seem to want to do that. Chen ain’t worth $14M over two years, and that’s the real cost of this signing.
As long as you keep framing the issue in terms of whether or not the man who made this move is an “idiot” you can keep pretending that this discussion is somehow just about the GM’s level of intelligence, and that everyone (except you) is just here to call him names.
If you really wanted to have an intelligent discussion, however, you might try addressing the Chen signing: You might try explaining how giving up a compensation pick in order to sign a mediocre pitcher to a two-year deal in the middle of a seller’s market is somehow a smart move.
This signing is costing the Royals much, much more than they are getting in return. It’s a stupid move. It’s a dumb move. It’s a move that shouldn’t have been made. I don’t say any of this to denigrate Dayton Moore. I don’t say this because you’re supposed to take my word as gospel. I say this because the move, when viewed in its full context, is simply indefensible.
And you haven’t made any attempt to defend the Chen signing on its merits. Instead, you’ve spent all of your time accusing everyone else of not making substantive arguments. On the whole, that seems pretty hypocritical. On the whole, it really seems like you’re the one who won’t engage in honest debate.
there is no cencensus of any kind on the contract
many pluses and negatives in various forums. It’s obvious when the dust sets in (other FA pitchers sign) the real evaluation will take place (and the signs point to the SP FA market is way over-heated). Yet without this data this is a terrible singing per you and another example of our poor GM. If you believe a draft pick is better than what Chen can do, you must wait and see what Chen actually does and what else plays out in the trade/FA signing markets. There were 3 teams in on Chen so your comment on a sellers market doesn’t have any relevance (unless we were trading him). Considering where this team is today, a solid #4 starter within the current market conditions is more prudent than a possible draft pick that wont show up for a while (assuming we would have picked a starter with the pick).
A quick clarification
Your reference to three teams being in on Chen suggests that you misunderstood me in regard to the current “sellers’ market” for FA SP. Perhaps I was not clear, so I’ll explain.
There is a broad consensus that FA SP are scarce this year and that more such pitchers will be available on the market next year. Thus, basic rules of supply and demand suggest that such pitchers will be more expensive in 2012 than in 2013. So, the 2012 market favors pitchers who are selling their talents to MLB teams, instead of favoring those teams, who are buying that talent. That’s what I mean when I say we’re in a sellers’ market. Conversely, when the free agents hit the market a year from now, the situation will reverse, and FA SP will become a buyers’ market.
All other things being equal, it doesn’t make sense to buy in a sellers’ market when you don’t have to do so because the price will reflect the prevailing market. Dayton just bought a pitcher for two years—both 2012 and 2013. But in order to do so, he had to pay the 2012 price. In other words, he bought a 2013 pitcher at the 2012 price.
So, I don’t like that aspect of this contract. That is certainly not the biggest problem with the Chen signing, but it is worth noting. I have a much bigger problem with the fact that Dayton gave up the compensation pick for no reason…
Settling Dust and the Compensation Pick...
We don’t have to wait for any “dust to set in” before assessing this signing. In fact, if we did that, someone would eventually accuse us of unfairly using hindsight to evaluate a move that the GM had to make without the benefit of such knowledge. And all of that is unecessary anyway, because we can actually see that Dayton has made a mistake using only what we know today, and nothing else.
However the FA SP market shapes up over the next few months, we already know that Bruce Chen was willing to sign for $9M guaranteed with a chance to make $11M over the course of two years. Let’s just assume for the sake of argument that that is his actual value on the open market (and, of course, if he had gotten any better offers, it is safe to assume he would have signed somewhere else). Let’s also give Bruce the benefit of the doubt and assume that he’s going to be a decent pitcher for the next two years and actually secure those incentive payments.
Now, if the Cubs or Rockies (the other teams reported to have interest) had signed this deal with Chen, and we assume that $11M was the right price to put on his services, the Cubs or Rockies would have made a reasonable (if not particularly exciting) decision. But the Royals had to give up more than the Cubs or Rockies would have given up in that deal, because the Royals had a compensation pick riding in the balance.
We’ll never know what Dayton would have done with that pick (and no amount of waiting for the dust to settle will ever provide us with that information), but we can look at history to see how valuable type-B compensation picks usually are. Two years ago, Victor Wang did that analysis on the surplus value of draft picks, and concluded that players drafted between the 31st and 45th overall picks return, on average, a net surplus value of roughly $2.63M over their team-controlled years. (And—give credit where credit is due—Dayton has done very well in the draft lately, so I expect that he’s likely to actually beat the “average” return). I would suggest that salary inflation would put that number pretty close to $3M today. And that $3M pick is part of what Dayton gave up to sign Chen. As a result, the actual cost to the Royals of signing Bruce Chen is closer to $14M for two years than it is to $11M.
So, putting it all together, if the Cubs or Rockies had given Chen an $11M deal, that would have been reasonable (based on our prior assumptions). But Dayton just gave up $14M in actual value for a pitcher who no one else would have signed for anywhere near that cost (no assumptions necessary—you know Chen would have taken that deal elsewhere if it was on the table). Thus, even if we assume that everything else about this deal was completely reasonable (and I’ve made those assumptions solely for the sake of argument… that second year really isn’t reasonable at all because of the sellers’ market I discussed above), the type B compensation still makes this a bad deal for the Royals.
Just to fact that you think 70ish win seasons are a "heck of a run" shows how poor of a GM DM has been thus far in his tenure.
Yes, we have a lot of good prospects. That’s now the point of being a GM. A GM builds winning major league baseball teams. Until that happens, DM has done a poor job. Simple as that.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 24, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe we can flip him to the Red Sox for their wild card playoff start???
Ahh, fuck it. This move is shitty.
Well we could say this....

The Royal Pork T....between inning snack of prized Royal Designated Hitters
by kd_in_kc on Nov 23, 2011 5:47 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
The Extra Year
Of control will make him more attractive to competing teams at the deadline. That’s what this is about, right?
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
As usual, I'm perplexed not by what Dayton did, but when and how
I thought the plan was to let Chen examine his options for a few weeks, let him discover that Kansas City was the only team out there with serious interest in his services, and then sign him for a year or two at a sweetheart rate. And if another team happened to want him, we’d just let them have him, and take the draft pick rather than start a bidding war. Instead, Dayton has made yet another move when he didn’t have to do anything at all.
Remember last offseason, when he pounced on Frenchy in early December? And then signed Melky like a week or so later? Frenchy and Melky did not need to be signed so early. No team in baseball was eager to have them, or was threatening to sign him out from underneath us. And then, when we trade Greinke for Cain and others later in the offseason, Dayton acted like it was a big fucking surprise that we had all of these outfielders, as if it wasn’t 100% his own fault.
This, in a nutshell, is why smart general managers don’t go after mediocrity early in the offseason. If they do, they either limit your options to substantially improve the team, or you force yourself into situations where you have redundancies. The wonder of the Chen signing isn’t that it happened, it is that it happened before a SINGLE top-tier starter has been signed or acquired via trade.
The market is still unsettled, the world could have been Dayton’s oyster, and now he has less roster space and money with which to work. Remind me, if I ever get the chance, to play Dayton in chess.
by moregritplease on Nov 23, 2011 6:01 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
It is definitely Dayton's trademark.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
He needs a trademark that involves winning or something.
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
by setupunchtag on Nov 23, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
That's Cliche; Dayton
Wears his own kind of hat.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 23, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
If you wan't to use hindsight, then all GMs make stupid moves.
The Phillies just signed Papsmear for 60 mil when they had better in house options for a tenth the price. (Bastardo?)
Criticizing Moore for signing Melky 9 days before the Grienke trade is pure hindsight. Go look at Mr. Sabean’s World championship record of signing players.
This wasn’t a great move, but it wasn’t terrible.
by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So let me get this straight
You’re using the “Better than Sabean” measuring stick for GM performance?
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
He is a GM that runs a solid draft, but makes questionable FA moves
sound familiar?
His system has netted him a gaudy ring.
by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
In hindsight, signing Frenchy and Melky looks pretty good - it was stupid in foresight, and objectively
Because you never know what the next few weeks of an offseason will bring, it is almost never a good idea to sign reclamation projects, mediocre veterans, etc, this early in the offseason. It is a strategically bad choice.
Dayton signed not one but two outfielders in December 2010, well before he had to sign either of them. He did so when an outfield of Gordon/Maier/Lough or Gordon/Dyson/Maier would have been just fine in 2011. And let’s not forget that by December, the Greinke chum was already in the water.
As for your “hindsight,” I’d argue that Dayton looks pretty good right now. He kept Cain’s service time suppressed, got career years out of Melky and Frenchy, traded Cabrera for pitching… Sorry, this isn’t about hindsight being 20/20. This is about hindsight actually OBSCURING the fact that Moore is an idiot.
by moregritplease on Nov 23, 2011 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
So Moore was an idiot for signing Melky and Frenchy.
Because there is no way he could have predicted that they would bounce back and be two of the best value signings in all of baseball and parlay the “worthless” Cabrera directly into Sanchez?
Sorry man, but if you cant see that Moore did a great job last offseason, then you are just one of those guys that complains about everything. There isn’t a GM out there that you wouldn’t complain about. It must make you feel superior.
by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
You are seeminly not bothering to actually read my posts
Look, I probably would have been okay with signing EITHER ONE of either Jeff Francoeur or Melky Cabrera. I think Melky, particularly, would have been a great signing, even if it had happened earlier, and I think Moore deserves a modicum of credit for trading Melky to San Francisco. Kudos to him for making an obvious trade that should have happened last trade deadline.
Problem is, Cabrera wasn’t signed alone. Jeff Francoeur came before him. Let me repeat: this is why smart general managers sign better players BEFORE signing mediocre or bad players. If Moore had waited a few weeks on Francoeur, he could have avoided the signing altogether, and given the Royals an outfield of Gordon, Cain, Cabrera in 2011, saving us a few million and giving Cain some much-needed ML service time.
Then, Moore doubled down on his stupidity by extending Frenchy during the season, yet another move he made well before there was any need. It’s a pattern of behavior, really. It’s not like the world would come to an end without Jeff Francoeur in right field in 2012, and Gordon should have been the priority if anything. But this is turning into a Frenchy post, and I don’t want that because it’s not just about him.
Melky and Frenchy have just had career years, and Melky has just been traded, so in hindsight things look great right now for Moore. In reality, the signings could have turned out very differently. And even at their best, these deals netted us a year of production from Melky that didn’t help us compete, a back-end starting pitcher, and a few years of Jeff Francoeur (for whom we’re pretty much paying market value now).
Just answer me one question: why couldn’t the signing of Melky, or Frenchy, or both, waited another few weeks?
by moregritplease on Nov 24, 2011 6:21 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
what would a couple more weeks accomplished?
Moore did not know he was about to trade for Lorenzo Cain.
Let's get this straight
He jumped at signing two of the guys who ended up being in the best FA signs last year and he’s criticised for it?
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 23, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Seems counterintuitive, right?
But yes, that is the case I’m making. It was a bad move that, luckily, worked out.
by moregritplease on Nov 23, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
Just admit you hate the guy
He could trade Christian Colon for Matt Moore and you would complain that he traded a 1st round pick for an 8th rnd pick.
by Crowncola on Nov 23, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Totally Missing The
Point. Baseball is a game where bad moves pay off sometimes, thus your 2010 World Series Champion Giants.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 23, 2011 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
So,
Sabean just put a blindfold on and threw darts at his draftboard and just “luckily” hit tim lincecum, Matt Cain, Madison Bumgarner, Buster Posey, etc.
Yes, the bad moves he was talking about were clearly the drafting of all those studs.
Good lord guy, get a clue.
Killing time until time kills me
Um, if I recall correctly
At least on Lincecum…yes. No one thought Lincecum was going to be as good as he has been and even if he was successful a lot of people think(and still do) that he is an injury risk.
So yes. Lincecum was a proverbial “lucky” dart
"We don’t have guys with a long history of being effective in the seventh and eighth innings."
~Trey Hillman, master of understatements.
meant to rec this...and, accidentally flagged it.
Okay, well maybe we should tell that to Rain Man, because he practically bankrupted a casino, and he was a ri-tard.
by Clearly Ambiguous on Nov 23, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
as rick perry would say.....oops.
Okay, well maybe we should tell that to Rain Man, because he practically bankrupted a casino, and he was a ri-tard.
by Clearly Ambiguous on Nov 23, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
No, GMDM's getting criticized for not reading the free agent market well
There was no need to sign Frenchy and Melky in December last year. They could’ve been signed weeks later after the Greinke deal. Given that multiple major league ready prospects were inevitable, waiting to find out what we got out of the Greinke haul would have been smarter.
He also thought Frenchy needed to be wrapped up before the end of this season, and out-bidded nobody in a deal that puzzled everyone.
Now, with Chen, GMDM could have waited another month or two, and seen what the market looked like before paying market or above-market rate to Chen. Chen made it pretty clear that he wanted to stay in KC and was going to give the Royals a good opportunity to sign him.
We don’t have all the information, but it seems like GMDM is habitually getting out-negotiated by these players’ agents. We all want Chen to succeed and for this to look like a good deal in hindsight, but that doesn’t mean that it couldn’t have been a better deal.
boras is chen's agent...are you surprised DM got outnegotiated?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
Never surprised.....I'm glad we live in a country where Scott Boras can do his thing....
But I still don’t have to like that Scott Boras does his thing….

The Royal Pork T....between inning snack of prized Royal Designated Hitters
The timing I actually like
the deal, I don’t love it but it’s not offensive. C-. Perhaps the Royals knew that Chen would accept arbitration and they decided they’d rather have cost certainty over two years than go to arb and possibly be on the hook for $6M for one year. I can live with that.
I think that teams are better off erring on the side of aggressiveness early in the off-season because it keeps them from making desperate moves that can be much more damaging late in the process once options begin to foreclose.
Does anyone really need to see a top-tier starter get signed to know that it’s going to be a ridiculous contract that will be an albatross within three years?
by billexgordler on Nov 23, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
But they can afford the $6MM this year
Salaries on guys like Butler and Soria (not that I think he’ll be here then) and arb-eligible players are set to go up even more in 2013.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
that's a good point.
Royals knew that Chen would accept arbitration and they decided they’d rather have cost certainty over two years than go to arb and possibly be on the hook for $6M for one year.
hopefully we’ll find out those kinds of details.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:13 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
From what I read on MLBTR, Chen had 2-year offers on the table
I doubt there was any risk he’d take arbitration. But I guess anything’s possible.
by moregritplease on Nov 24, 2011 6:50 AM EST up reply actions
A certainty of 2/9 (plus 2 in likely incentives) is better than the possibility of $6M with a likelihood of $5M?
I don’t think that makes sense in general and I think it really doesn’t make sense in the Royals circumstance. The Royals have a lot of payroll room for 2012. In 2013, things will be tighter, and that is when the Royals could/should actually hit the FA market to get a genuinely good player or two. Now, that just got harder.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 8:45 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm not following how 9 is better than even 6 would have been.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
And 6 is a red herring
Most who were in favor of offering him arbitration were arguing that he’d make less than $5M. Now that he’s been signed for 2/9+, he’s suddenly a $6M man.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
3 teams were chasing Chen
so youre argument is moot
kcemigre answers this logically,
I’m just wondering your source…
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Nov 24, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If true, and if he would have taken one of those deals, then that would have been great for the Royals
Because a compensatory draft pick is better than having a mid-30’s, oft-injured, below average pitcher making $9M guaranteed for the next two years.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Chen doesn't charge anything for his 'Stand Up' routines in the clubhouse.
These keep everyone in stitches and smiling when they return home after a hard days work.
NONE of you thought of that though did you?
All these "not so bad" contracts add up.
Remember this in the 2013 free agent market, with the Royals maybe looking at contending, when they need a real starting pitcher, second baseman, or outfielder, and they have $11 million going to Chen and Francoeur.
Cf. the 2008-2009 off-season.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 23, 2011 6:11 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Great point.
I guess they figured with Kendall’s money coming off they have plenty more to spend on mediocrity…for multiple years.
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
by setupunchtag on Nov 23, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
We can spend the Meche money
For the twelfth time
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 23, 2011 7:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I'll wait til I see it on CNN
before I believe it’s official
by wildthang on Nov 23, 2011 6:11 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Payroll Update = ~$52 million!
The 2012 payroll now projects to about $52 million.
$4.5 million for Chen
$23 million in other guaranteed contracts for Butler, Soria, Francoeur, Crow, and Arguelles
~$16 million in arbitration-eligible salaries for Sanchez (est. $5.2m), Gordon ($4.3m), Hochevar ($4m), Paulino ($1.6m), and Pena ($0.9m). Please note that I am just using the MLBTR projections, which I think are a little low for Sanchez and Gordon, but close enough. (Mitch would be an additional $700,000 or so).
~$7 million for the other 15 roster making the league minimum (15 x $0.480m) (assuming Arguelles in the minors)
~$1.5 million in contingency salary for players on the DL (as the Royals would have to pay the DL player his salary and pay the replacement on the active roster)
If my math is correct, that adds up to $52 million. If the 2012 budget is in line with Dayton’s prior statements (from blogger night) that the team can only sustain a payroll in the $55 to $60 million range, there does not appear to be much room in the budget for more than a few million in additional salary.
As for the Chen signing, meh.
by Gopherballs on Nov 23, 2011 6:14 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
When did he say that?
Ive seen him quoted many times saying they could (and have) spend way more than that.
a few months ago at the blogger night
check the archives for the write up
If Minn can sustain a 122 mil payroll,
Im pretty sure KC can and will extend the payroll well into the 90 mil range when its necessary. We will need some more fan support, but it will happen.
Go dig up your 55 mil quote. I would like to see it, b/c I dont think it happened.
Good grief, you are as lazy as you are misinformed
Here are Moore comments:
In addressing the bloggers during Wednesday night’s Royal’s game with Baltimore, Moore said, “We’re not gonna out-talent anybody here. We’ve got one of the smallest markets in all of sports, period. Our owner is a terrific owner, but he’s not going to go out and spend a $100 million payroll when we can only sustain a $55 million or $60 million payroll in this market.”
That just happened!
Per Forbes (click on revenue to sort by that category), the Minnesota Twins were 9th out of the 30 MLB teams with $213 million in annual revenue, while the Kansas City Royals were 26th with only $160 million.
by Gopherballs on Nov 23, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
no reason to be rude gopher,
since you made the statement, the impetus is on you to back it up.
Since he has had a payroll in excess of 72 mil as recently as 2010, these “statements” are obviously to be taken with a grain of salt.
Im not sure how official (read: reliable) a blogger discussion is to start with.
if you had been around this site for more than (checks profile) 3 days
you would have known the $55-$60 million figure has been talked about many times here, including when it was initially said (and verified by a couple of RR regulars who attended the event). For things that have been generally discussed here, the impetus is the newcomer to catch up.
And I think the key word Dayton used was “sustain.” The payroll briefly bumped above $70 million for two years, but the average payroll over the last five years has been $61 million, and the average over the last 10 years has been $53 million (per Cot’s).
by Gopherballs on Nov 23, 2011 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Maybe you should broaden your
knowledge by venturing outside your RR comfort zone every once in awhile. Just because I recently signed up, doesn’t mean I am any less informed than you on anything.
Its know-it-all assclowns like you that remind me why I usually don’t comment in SB blogs.
I get it, treat the ‘new guy’ like shit and maybe he will go away. nice.
Just because I recently signed up, doesn’t mean I am any less informed than you on anything.
You mean on topics other than Dayton Moore’s statements that the team can only sustain a payroll in the $55 to $60 million range and the chasm between the Twins’ annual revenue and the Royals’ annual revenue, right?
by Gopherballs on Nov 23, 2011 7:44 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
C'mon, be gentle with the newbies
We should aim to educate, not fight
well...
Go dig up your 55 mil quote. I would like to see it, b/c I dont think it happened.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not convinced.
Milwaukee had an owner who was willing to lose money to win a championship. Glass is not that kind of owner.
IMO
Given the payrolls of Minn, Stl, Mil and others relative to Kansas City, and assuming we can draw at least 28+ per, I don’t think its unreasonable to think that with a newly renovated park with more luxury boxes, (and other modern revenue generating sources like the Rivals Sports Bar) we can handle a payroll of 90+ on any given year.
The key here is sustain. If the payroll were to avg 90, that would mean a fluctuation of 70 to 110mil. Im not sure were there yet. Certainly we can afford 90+ mil if necessary for this team going forward for a 3 year run in say ’15-17.
If you disagree, good for you. Have your own opinion.
You're gonna have to convince Glass of that then.
His actions and GMDM’s statements show that $70-75MM is their upper limit. It’s not my opinion – it’s fact. That is the Royal’s policy.
Whether it’s a possible or better to run the team on a higher payroll is a matter of opinion. I agree that the Royals should spend more, but I’m not the one who writes the checks. So I have to evaluate the Chen signing and all other Royals’ moves under the assumption that $70-75MM is our payroll limit.
I agree that my opinion
is predicated on a large jump in attendance. 5,000 new fans per game would probably mean 16 mil ($40 per) in new revenue. I understand that is not net profit, but their are other sources. Revenue sharing, George Brett autographed lap dances…
The Brewers averaged 38k a game
And we averaged 21k and were are supposed to have a higher payroll than them?
by Royals Time on Nov 24, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Rewind yourself, Crowncola...
…Gopher didn’t seem rude at all.
It is reasonably safe to assume that pretty much everyone here knew exactly what he was talking about with that quote.
As the new guy who didn’t know what was going on, you might have tried inquiring politely.
Instead you directly challenged his credibility by saying:
Go dig up your 55 mil quote. I would like to see it, b/c I dont think it happened.
That was rude. Also, it made you look a little bit like a fool, particularly since this is the internet, and it would have taken very little time for you to just dig up the source yourself.
Agreed
Any newbie that tries to “Trey Hillman” (i.e. “don’t have time to educate”) a longstanding, well-respected poster on here deserves at least a little snark. .
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You can all gang up on me if you want,
I Just didn’t particularly being called lazy and misinformed. I how no idea where in the archives this tidbit of info would be located…
Furthermore, the “rewind yourself” assuredly refers to a Mr. Kendall in defense of a Mr. Moustakas on 610 am, and the “trey hillman” used as verb must refer to the overall disrespect his own players showed him. Maybe even specifically going back to ST ’10 when he tried to call a meeting at homeplate to chew out everyone for not hustling….something like that.
I'm not sure what is so hard about this.
I just typed “dayton moore royals payroll 55” into google. Four of the first five results are stories that include the quote Gopherballs was talking about.
by kcemigre on Nov 23, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Fine, you win
The whole discussion is petty. What Dayton told a bunch of bloggers is irrelevant imo.
I just get so sick of all the “armchair GM” type criticism. Its just such an easy thing to do.
Everyone thinks they could do a better job than Dayton Moore. I get it.
I will go on record saying I think he is doing a pretty good job, and i like the direction he is taking this team. Has he made some awful moves? Hell yes. But I truely think he is getting better and he deserves more respect than he gets.
This site is awful about that. Almost everyone here trashes him mercilessly.
Yeah totally, I mean, given the Royals history over the past 30 years, it is just a disgrace that this place isn't more cheerful
Killing time until time kills me
Yup, that's definitely what I said.
I mean, anytime a person criticizes a move a GM makes, that means they are saying they would be better at the entire job!
Disagree with the War in Iraq? Then you must be saying you would be a better President of the United States!
Disagree with universal health care? Oh, so you are saying you would lead the free world better than Obama!?!
Time to turn in for the night guy. Try again tomorrow.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 9:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
My bedtime isn't until 9. Ouch here's a napkin to wipe all that egg off your face.
Killing time until time kills me
he just called you kman...thats definitely an insult in these parts...
i wonder where that guy is these d ays
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah,
there was a troll whose handle was The K-man. He’s been suspended multiple times.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
No reason you should have.
That’s what BBB was referring to, though.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
Isn't there some other guy who keeps getting banned?
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
His name is Jack Marsh
Just kidding Jack
by moregritplease on Nov 24, 2011 6:54 AM EST up reply actions
Haven't seen Jackie Boy lately either
Probably busy lighting up the Royals’ Facebook page.
We should trade for Vance Worley.
Hey now
I hope Jack is still around. I didn’t agree with many of his posts, but that’s neither here nor there. He puts a lot of thought into his posts, looks at stats, and handled disagreement and criticism a fair bit better than a lot of us “adults.”
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 25, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed on all counts.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 25, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you for the compliments.
I must say, really brightens my day.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
I'm still here.
Just been busy lately with homework and such.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 26, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why does it keep flagging whenever I try to rec?
That is pissing me off.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
Totally not the guy I was thinking of when they mentioned Jack Marsh
Jack is a solid contributor.
I’m thinking of a guy who gets real emotional about things and Scott rips into him constantly until he gives up out of frustration.
This is going to bug me until I figure this out…
We should trade for Vance Worley.
Jim Fetterolf?
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 27, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Daytonsucks?
But that wouldn’t be like this guy’s alter-ego, right?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
While maybe this site veers a little more into the negative than other sites,
it seems like Moore gets credit when it’s due. No one around here is saying that he can’t build a farm system. This is where the credit is due. There is cause for concern virtually everywhere else.
There is a lot of snark here, but why shouldn’t there be?
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
I guess i just don't see any credit given to him at all.
In this thread alone, it seems his moves are all luck (Frenchy, Cabrera, Chen, Francis, Paulino) and his mistakes (Frenchy re-sign, Chen re-sign) are the glaring incompetence of a moron. It just gets on my nerves.
I will say it again. I like the guy.
How come rookie GM’s aren’t given similar slack to what rookie players get?
How come if a player is terrible when he first comes to the bigs, he is given a free pass, but a GM is fed to the wolves….I have never understood that.
go back and read the sanchez for melky trade threads
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions
No one around here didn't like the Paulino waiver claim.
The Francis signing was met with broad approval in these parts. The Frenchy signing was not well-thought-of at the time and neither was the Cabrera one. Last year’s Chen signing was a bit more divisive. The Frenchy extension was unnecessary.
GMDM is not a rookie GM anymore. He’s been on the job for quite a while now.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:56 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe its just the level
of condescension, blatent disrespect, rudeness and general loathing that i find offensive.
The guy is a human being and has a family.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the children of some of the bloggers on this site throw rocks at his children.
i havent seen anyone attacking dayton personally and especially his family...
he gets attacked for his job performance…which is totally fair…i think some criticize him too much, but thats part of the job…the sweet job that he has that he gets paid a shit ton of money to do…its not like we’re attacking the greeter at wal-mart for their tone of voice or some shit.
is obama off limits to criticize b/c he has a family? GW?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
If he turns it around,
I would love it if some people gave him the props and said ‘I was wrong about him’
I do NOT think that will happen. People in general will just act as if they liked him all along. Just like they did with Gordon.
You are not insinuating that Gordon was disliked here, were you?
If so, that’s a largely baseless claim.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
This site was up in arms when he was demoted last year.
The only things people were critical of around here was the Royals’ handling of Gordon.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
People here either like or love Gordon. When he was struggling, people defended him due to his injuries or being yanked around between positions and levels.
You crazy guy.
If and when DM starts actually winning games (i.e. builds a legitimate contending team for the long run), DM will get credit for it. He will continue to be criticized if he makes dumb moves, however.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No one really ever bashed Alex
Maybe some fans who didn’t follow the Royals and only checked his statistics…
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 10:21 PM EST up reply actions
i havent done a 180 on moore...but ive turned at least 90 degrees...
i was one of the first and most vocal about hating what moore was doing
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
The one thing I've seen Dayton criticized for personally
is his very public Christianity. I tend to have more respect for low-key Christians; the years have taught me that moderation in most things is the best policy.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
by Juancho on Nov 24, 2011 4:55 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
tell me your thoughts on tebow
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 8:08 AM EST up reply actions
Annoying God-botherer
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
I haven't seen
Dayton criticized once for his Christianity on this site in the 7 or 8 months I’ve been around.
ive done it i guess....
not critical of his christianity…but the fact that i know about it…i dont give a shit what athletes/gms believe…i shouldnt have to read about it
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
That, And I
Strongly suspect it had some bearing on hiring Nedgar.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
IIRC
there was some criticism in the months after Dayton got hired, but everyone’s gotten used to it and no one bothers to complain much anymore.
I’m all in favor of praying; I just think it’s more honest when you do it on your own. Praying in public (unless it’s a very solemn occasion, or a religious service) is showing off.
And leave God alone unless it’s important. She’s busy and doesn’t care about your damn football game.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
I've mentioned it a time or two.
I try not to get too personal with that stuff because while it may not be my cup of tea, I know plenty of people for whom it is.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 25, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
You are throwing away all your credibility with every one of these type of posts that you make.
Go to RoyalsCorner where they like literally every single move DM makes. That seems like more your place. This place requires brains and the ability to deal with snark.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
It seems like both of you are making this a little too personal.
Perhaps some of us need to relax.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
X

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
Now you're learning!
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Did you miss my comment about making things personal and relaxing?
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
I don't really see my posts as being angry.
He’s clearly just making up crazy shit, so I and others are calling him on it. I don’t hate him and am not angry.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
They're approaching a line.
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by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
i bet if the new guy says he's wearing sandals with jeans right now you'll get personal as well
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
I shall try to refrain.
It will take monastic restraint.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It helps if you have a foundation of knowledge
about the Royals, like their payroll, front office moves, their prospects, and the players’ histories and tendencies. If you make errors regarding basic facts like that, your opinions will not go over well.
I know all that as well as
anybody here. do you have an example? Just because I didn’t listen to a blogger interview where Dayton said he only has 55-60 mil to spend doesnt mean I dont know my shit.
Maybe you just assume I must not be informed because i am new to this site.
I think he's making a general statement.
People have been taking to you to town because you’ve been casting largely baseless aspersions, but most of them have been about the Royals Review community.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
One could make that argument.
But you’ve been backing it up with examples that have no basis, hence “baseless aspersions.”
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, you are on a Royals blog run by a blogger...
..and you’ve done nothing but insult bloggers and make inaccurate statements.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
I think Im taking
as much of a beating as im giving out.
How am I insulting the bloggers?
You seem to be throwing out the trash yourself bro.
You have spent a large chunk of your Thanksgiving Eve
making claims that Royals Review (in the Royal we sense of the word) believes things that a) you disagree with, and b) aren’t actually true.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
what isnt true?
The evidence is everywhere. In almost every thread, Dayton Moore gets trashed. Its just my OPINION that it is unwarranted.
Your evidence for this stance
has been shoddy at best. You stated not 20 minutes ago that everyone hated the Paulino waiver claim. That’s just one example. I do not care to elucidate the others as that’s what everyone has already been doing.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
dude,
i NEVER said that. I have no idea what you are talking about.
This has become a personal gang attack on me and I don’t appreciate it.
My bad.
You said that everyone around here said the Paulino claim and Francis signing were luck. Not true.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
Incorrect,
In this thread alone, it seems his moves are all luck (Frenchy, Cabrera, Chen, Francis, Paulino)
Key: in this thread alone.
I was citing examples from this thread
Your making me out to be the bad guy here Duggan by twisting my words.
again, unfair and unappreciated.
I just want to say
Royal Crown Cola is underrated.
by OnixConcepcion on Nov 23, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And no one ever said anything like that.
In this thread alone.
Baseless. Aspersion.
Again, credit has been given when credit has been due. Paulino was a helluva grab. Everyone liked the Francis signing when it happened. No one has ever chalked that up to luck. Certainly not in this thread.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
Some people
(I’m looking at you, Beau Jackson) may think that Paulino is set to come crashing to earth, but that isn’t the same thing as thinking that the waiver claim was a bad move. He was free. Everyone likes free middle of the rotation arms.
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by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
fine
there was no specific lack of credit for the Paulino move (how could there be?) . I was remembering more of a blanket statement of ‘luck’ by moore on last years moves by moregritplease.
their couldnt really be any critism of moore for that move, as their was no cost.
IIRC,
moregritplease was attributing the Cabrera and Francoeur signings actually working out as having been lucky, which doesn’t strike me as an erroneous statement. Moore didn’t even want Cabrera after they netted Cain. He actually didn’t suck, shockingly, and they got Sanchez and Verdugo for him. Given the wealth of information that was out there at the time, there was little justification for signing Melky. It happened to work out, which is both good and bad, as it helped the team in the short term but may encourage Moore to do the same in a situation in which it can actually do harm to the team.
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by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
that would
disregard it as a shrewd move in the first place. Which imo you cant do. Maybe Dayton knew Melky would bounce back. …I know has said he wouldnt have signed him if he had made the trade 10 days earlier, but the move wasn’t lucky imo.
And this is where we can have
an open and friendly debate. There certainly wasn’t any hard data pointing towards a resurgence. We both know Moore was crossing his fingers and hoping it worked out. Ultimately, it wasn’t going to cost the Royals much, so the magnitude of its consequences were somewhat limited. The outcry was in that it was yet another example of Moore signing a player who had poor on-base skills and other deficiencies who shouldn’t be counted upon to actually produce. It worked, but that’s sort of like telling the guy who won $50 on a scratch-off to keep buying lottery tickets because they’ll keep paying out.
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by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:38 PM EST up reply actions
but it DID work out
So, it can’t be dicounted imo.
Do you give Stl cred for signing Lance Berkman? that guy looked finished after his season in NY.
Same kind of deal.
There was much more reason
to believe that Berkman could rebound. He had actually performed at a high level over the greater portion of the previous decade. Melky was one of the five worst players in baseball over the previous four seasons. Different cases entirely.
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by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
well,
there was reason to believe that Crispy would workout (besides Nick Schwartz passing his physical). Did you like that move previous to his injury?
Yes.
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by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
i dunno...i'd rather have had
melky for 1/7 the price than having berkman playing RF…i thought that then, and i dont think my reasoning was incorrect
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
And that's fair.
There was nothing on Melky’s resume to indicate that he should be worth having on a Major League roster. Berkman had age working against him, but St. Louis is also working in a different economic climate than the Royals. KC could not have afforded to take on Berkman’s bloated salary. Berkman was also brought on board to be the piece to put them over the top, which is a different scenario than what Melky’s signing meant for what KC was trying to do. The wins Berkman was brought in to add were intended to put them in the playoffs.
I’m not saying I agree with bringing him in, but they were not the same situation.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
he was also old and broken down...
signed to play a position he hadnt played for like 5 years and 50 lbs
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
There Is Nothing
Shrewd about running a red light and later finding out it kept you from being hit by an asteroid.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 12:51 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Can I sig this?
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 24, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
If You Mean
Mine, go rigfht ahead. It’s hard to tell here, KIC.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
that is my fear for paulino, yes indeed
he scares the crap out of me. that move was a good one whether it works out or not though.
by BeauJackson on Nov 23, 2011 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
Absodamnlutely
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
No Sweat; We
Do that to everyone
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
Partially true
I don’t know you, and you came in guns ablaze with idealistic payroll numbers and criticized a commenter who knew the correct numbers. That was my first impression.
You don’t sounds dumb, which is why I haven’t given up on having a discussion, but I don’t think your points are well-founded. If you have information we don’t have, please share. If you don’t, please listen and respect what others have to say.
Well
A poll on whether DM was incompetent led to an overall vote of “No” last offseason. Don’t mistake volume for majority.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 23, 2011 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
ok,
my mistake.
Im getting tired of the prison style gang rape here, so I will agree to just about anything at this point.
It's just that you came in, derailed a discussion thread,
and started making blanket statements that perhaps had some basis but then sprinkled in things that simply weren’t true.
Yes, this site is harder on Moore than most other Royals sites, which may come across as negative, but you have stated that this has been unfair and no credit has been given when it is due.
You also said that our children throw rocks at Dayton’s children. For starters, none of us can have children because we spend hours on end with computers on our laps rendering us sterile. It also paints a picture of this community as an angry mob, which is laughable. This is a reserved, measured group of gentlefellows and gentleladies. None of us have been outside in the past six years, so none of us could possibly have taught our immaculately conceived children to throw anything.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
"prison style gang rape"
Come on, dude. Please don’t compare message board discussions to violent violations of your body. Ridiculous.
by OnixConcepcion on Nov 23, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
That's actually a reality show I'm hoping to get on.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
As the rapee
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
Who can we attribute that one to?
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
That's right
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah.
What a dick.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
Scissoring Is So
2008.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
Just like your face
OH NO!
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
postmodern American humor
is what that was
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 24, 2011 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
Oh it was funny.
Many laughed. MANY
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 24, 2011 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
I chortled
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:04 AM EST up reply actions
I was going for a guffaw, but I'll take the chortle
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 24, 2011 12:13 AM EST up reply actions
Try to tell that to a guy who has been gang-raped in prison
by OnixConcepcion on Nov 23, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
He just did.
looks down as a tear forms and trickles down his stubbled cheek
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
So that's why you don't like sandals?
Reminds you of shower time in the big house?
by OnixConcepcion on Nov 23, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
No, they're an assault on taste and decency.
Their place should be limited to the beach/pool. Sandals at bar = begging for me to “drop” my bottle of beer on the floor next to your naked feet.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'm able to compartmentalize these things.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
To get you up to speed...
I hate sandals. I believe that real men do not wear them. Real men can be bothered to do things like put on a pair of shoes before they go out into the world. When I see people at bars wearing sandals, I become incensed, for reasons including but not limited to hygiene, common sense, and decorum.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
Some consider me insane for this.
Others are on board. I tend to think of those who are on board with this deeply rooted belief as Men. Others likely go out to lunch wearing sandals and pajamas like godless heathens.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
what about
socks with sandals? that always cracked me up. I have purchased sandals in my life, I just never ended up wearing them much….
Can girls wear them?
Girls can wear whatever the hell they want.
I tend to think that wearing flip-flops on the street or at a bar is insane for health reasons.
Socks with sandals is just as bad. Somehow pity enters into the equation with these poor saps, though.
I do believe that sandals have their place. That place is at the beach or at the pool or in the gym shower.
Sandals being worn because one is too lazy to put on socks and shoes is simply sad and indicates to me that the offending party has given up on trying to act like an adult.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
i have yet to think about being adult...
does that make it better?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
what did you think about
Plaxico wearing sweatpants to nightclub he shot himself at?
I won’t go to my mailbox in sweatpants.
ohh....i wear one of my three pairs of
crazy comfortable puma sweatpants all over the place…with flip flops of course
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
(points to BBB in an aside)
(whispers) He’s making my case for me.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
my lack of grownupness is part of my charm
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, nothing about me screams grown-up
I’m not married (GF for 13 years). I’ve got no kids. I own no homes. I work in the service industry driving boats. I waste my life writing on the internet.
I can, however, be bothered to put on a pair of goddamn pants and socks and shoes to interact with people in public, even though my feet are not grotesque in any way (unlike most of those dirty damned sandal-wearers).
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
I'm on board with the sandals hate
I love sandals but only on the beach, in the park or at home. They are not appropriate for public outings.
stupid SBNation formatting
there were asterisks before “looks” and after “cheek”
joke ruined
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
He gets paid a nice pile of money to do his job
he better be able to handle some criticism on the internet.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Baseball operations
According to a source that I have forgotten. The Royals spent 94.3%(over 150) of that 160 million on their total baseball operations. So it’s not that they don’t have it, it’s how they spend it.
well, it's not like there are any other big moves the Royals might want to make this off-season

Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 23, 2011 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
2013 Payroll projects even higher without adding anyone outside the system
$30 million in guaranteed contracts for Butler, Frenchy, Chen, Arguelles, plus Soria’s option. I would assume Gordon, Hochevar, Paulino, Pena, and arbitration newcomer Alcides Escobar get at least $16 million with another year of arbitration raises. (Again, I think that is too low, but let’s go with it for now). I am not sure what happens with Crow — he will not be aribitration eligible, but he would have already made $1 million based on his draft deal, so while the team could cut it, I will assume he gets another $1 million. The 15 other roster spots get $7.35 million (15 x $0.490 league minimum), and there should be another $1.5 million for DL players. That gets us to — yikes — $55.85 million.
yeah, I agree
I was making a point about the possibility of extending Gordon.
They really can’t quite be “done” yet, since they are pretty obviously interested in extending Gordon, and should be. If they do, they are putting themselves into the position of having to “backload” an extension in a typical manner, which decreases payroll flexibility down the road, too.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 23, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
oh yeah, I got the point
just adding that a Gordon extension gets trickier when payroll gets even tighter in 2013 due in part to the Chen extension
"Guys just play harder when he's on the mound"
“The guy just knows how to win.”
“He’s a Lefty.”
Thoughts running through GMDM’s mind
Do these effectively hide my thunder?
Also
“This guy used to pitch for the Braves.”
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Nov 23, 2011 7:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
also
he has a good WHIP
(so let’s hope Mike Fast is right)
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:24 AM EST up reply actions
He led our team in winzzz!!!!!
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Nov 25, 2011 12:51 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
What does this do for us getting a new starter?
"Stay Classy Kansas City"
- Ricky Stanzi to the rescue!
Just a prediction, but I doubt it
Even if it ends our pursuit of Jurrjens, it won’t stop the Braves and their mouthpieces from acting like we’re still in on him in order to start an artificial bidding war.
by moregritplease on Nov 23, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Where is the thinking of Hochevar being a #4?
I can’t see Paulino being ahead of him and maybe not Sanchez. He was the opening day starter and didn’t put in too bad of a performancr especially the second half. Not to mention our love of “sticking to our guys.”
I’m thinking it as more Hooch/Chen/Sanchez/Paulino.
(Void this whole post if the original post was just listing their names and not rotation projection)
by KCTiger on Nov 23, 2011 6:50 PM EST via mobile reply actions
In short it is because Luke Hochevar sucks
In 96 starts with the Royals he has a 5.34 ERA, the exact same mark as Kyle Davies. Yes, he had a good end of the season last year, but he is not the only bad pitcher to put up 2 months of decent pitching and I need to see more.
Don’t get me wrong, we don’t have a legit #1 or #2 starter, but even comparing him to the other pitchers on this team, he falls well short in actual performance. If he had not been a high draft pick, he would have spent some of the last few years in the minors or competing for the #4 slot.
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
Dude, he's totally fixed now
[everyone including me, 2011, 2010, 2009]
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 23, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
And in fairness
The gulf between our #1 and #4 is pretty miniscule.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
FYP
The gulf between our 4 #1 and #4’s is pretty miniscule
(don’t worry, I know you know this)
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:26 AM EST up reply actions
Dude's been solid for us when healthy. I don't hate this like most.
Okay, well maybe we should tell that to Rain Man, because he practically bankrupted a casino, and he was a ri-tard.
by Clearly Ambiguous on Nov 23, 2011 7:05 PM EST reply actions
its the 2 years that gets me...and i think most here...
1 year 4.5 is a b/b- move…2/9 is a c-/d+
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
This is pretty much my thinking.
The other issue is: Let it go to arbitration or let him sign elsewhere and grab that pick.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, I don't mind having Chen on the team
but $9 million guaranteed is something we did not have to do. I don’t think he was getting that kind of offer from anyone else. Add to that the loss of the comp pick and you have a bad deal.
Only once in his career has he logged more than last year’s 155 innings so at best you are looking at 80% of a starting pitcher.
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
Better Chen than Farnsworth.
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
So I assume it's been established that Crow will work for that 5th starter spot?
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 7:51 PM EST reply actions
Just as an FYI
https://twitter.com/#!/SI_JonHeyman/statuses/136830129644113920
“bruce chen has multiyear offers. #royals, cubs among teams talking to him.”
Note—PLURAL on offers.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 23, 2011 7:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
This is what makes all this...
…bitching and moaning about how we gave him too much garbage.
"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.
Really??
The fact that a well-known shill for the Boras Corporation floats a random tweet that the Cubs have given Chen an “offer” (for how much? how many years?) automatically ends all argument that Dayton was outnegotiated/jumped the gun for Chen’s services?
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
him having other offers makes it MORE of a mistake b/c getting the Type B pick was more likely
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:28 AM EST up reply actions
Just as another FYI
Chen’s agent is Boras. And Heyman is a notorious mouthpiece for Boras.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
"Heynan is a mouthpiece for Boras?
I feel shocked and betrayed!" – Dayton Moore
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
Yep
Before everyone freaks the freak out, let’s wait to see what the final market values for pitching end up being, OK. Consider as well that next year free agency might see a run up in FA salaries if spending on the draft and international is restricted in 2013.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 23, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see anybody "freaking out."
I see a lot of people saying it is not a move they like that much b/c it seems a bit too early to make the move and might be a little bit too much money.
I do see some people jumping the gun with the “oh you guys just complain about everything” schtick though.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 23, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So Bruce Chen makes an extra million or two
All it means in Glass makes a little less money. Maybe DM looked at the lower range options and decided Chen was the best of a bad lot and decided not to try and squeeze a million bucks out of him.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 23, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
How do you figure that?
Let’s say DM plays hardball with Chen, makes him sweat, and gets him for 2/8. All that does is give Glass another mil.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 23, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think Glass will not sacrifice his profits for the team.
I think GMDM gets a pretty strict budget, and any $ spent/saved on Chen come’s out of Moore’s allowance.
I'm most concerned with the two years
and the loss of the comp pick.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
The comp pick, alone, makes this dumb.
Chen is not special. There are other middling starting pitchers in the world. I have no doubt that a two-year deal for $9M could have landed someone else of similar talent.
Why not sign that guy and keep the comp pick? Why?
There is no reason at all. The comp pick had real value to this team. Now it is gone… for absolutely no reason at all.
There is no justifying that. It’s stupid, stupid, stupid.
Nothing
But the point is that other pitchers of Chen’s quality/production would be available, and possibly for less than a 2-year commitment. And signing one of them would not have resulted in losing a draft pick.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 23, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
I want the comp pick.
The compensation pick for a type-B free agent returns an excess value somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 to 3 million dollars. (The average value in 2009 was $2.6M, adjusted for salary inflation, I bet it’s pretty close to $3M by now).
So, Chen just cost:
$9M on the contract;
$1M for the roster bonus;
at least $2.6 for the forgone pick;
and up to $1M in incentives.
You are looking as something very close to $7M per year there… for Bruce Chen.
Dayton could have signed Francis. Dayton could have signed Capuano. Dayton could have signed any number of other guys who are quite likely to be just as good as Chen without costing $7M per year for two years.
It is basically impossible to make a good deal if the first step in the deal is to flush $3M down the toilet. And that is exactly what Dayton just did.
by kcemigre on Nov 23, 2011 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No one is freaking out
We might not be jumping for joy, but it’s not like Chen is a CY Young guy
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
Royals Facebook just announced it
OFFICIAL
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
google jon heyman boras mouthpiece
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 23, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
OT:
Has anyone listned to the Royalman report? I refuse to, because I can’t stand the guy. But is it worth my time to give it a shot?
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
Who's Royalman?
That skinny mailman?
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
Oh Lord
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I've listened to some of them, the most interesting one was when they had a K-crew member on
and how Frenchy protected them from obnoxious fans. He is just that good of a leader.
Go Royals!
I like a lot of the Kings of Kauffman guys, generally.
It’s their podcast with Troy.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah... Not a fan of Troy.
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:14 PM EST up reply actions
I know you've gotten into it with him on Facebook.
I’ve certainly gotten into it with him on Twitter—not in an acrimonious way—but we don’t always see eye-to-eye, and I’ve certainly gotten into protracted arguments, mostly about decorum, which is funny since I am a fan of cursing and saying somewhat inflammatory things.
That said, I don’t dislike him at all. We get along well enough on Twitter and interact fairly frequently, for whatever that’s worth.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
For me...
Its a matter of him not understanding the difference of being dismissive of some of the ridiculous things he says, and him retaliating in name calling.
I’ll admit I can be an asshole about the stuff he says, but I never attack him personally, its always the argument, on many occasions he flat out just loses it and starts name calling.
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
I can see where that would be problematic.
That’s mostly where I’ve taken issue with some of the things he says. I do consider myself web-friends with Mike Engel and Jeff Herr, Kamler is generally pretty funny, and I’m on good terms with Troy most of the time.
I’m certainly not going to feed a fractious fire largely because I don’t see a point to it.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough.
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
I've missed this segment of Royal fandom.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Technically,
I don’t think they’re “friends.” Kindred spirits? Likely.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'm listening to the new one right now.
Goldstein is on for an hour.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
But are they good?
As said above, I have personal beef with one of the guys, and I’d rather not even give them the click unless its really worth my time… And I hate the way he uses that fucking podcast to prove his points.
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:15 PM EST up reply actions
I'm listening to the one largely because of Goldstein's presence.
He’s on for an hour talking about the Royals. I listen to Up and In regularly, so I just get to hear Goldstein talking about the Royals for an hour.
I don’t feel like the podcast is all Troy. This episode is pretty good so far. If I were doing a podcast, I might do some things differently, but it’s not my show.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
A friend of mine, and I are talking about doing a podcast.
Im all for it… Not really sure what the tone of it would be.
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
I've had the conversation with two of my friends.
Not a Royals podcast. Pop culture.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
Same here...
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
by averagegatsby on Nov 23, 2011 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
On the plus side, this probably means
that he goes into the Hall as a Royal.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
The Panamanian Baseball Hall of Fame ceremony is going to be special.
He’s just 15 wins behind the all-time leader in wins for a Panamanian (Mariano Rivera is the leader with 75).
Killing time until time kills me
You ain't partied
until you’ve experienced the joy of Panamanian Induction.
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
You've got that right. If Panamanian's know one thing, its how to induct.
what is your favorite induction stage? The ceviche, the hot rub from Roberto Duran, or the ceremonial cleansing in the 2nd sect of canal locks?
by Nighthawk at the Diner on Nov 24, 2011 7:59 AM EST up reply actions
Does this change with Sino-Panamanians?
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 25, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
"Dayton why did you re-sign Chen man?"

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 9:32 PM EST reply actions
Classic me photo fail
I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
The only reason for the re-sign

I was born into the Purdue and Miami family, became a Jaguars fan after moving to Jacksonville and adopted the Royals as my baseball team.....All of my teams are kinda bad....
by tiquanunderwear on Nov 23, 2011 9:39 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Retro
You seem to have left off SOS in your potential starting lineup of pitchers.
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
I love that this likely wasn't a joke, yet I laughed aloud.
FML. FOL.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
I guess I dont understand why there is a guaranteed pick?
We hadnt offered chen arbitration yet. What was the estimate on his payout? And whose to say chen doesn’t accept arb? Lots of unknowns. Don’t get me wrong bc I’d love that pick.
by 306008 on Nov 23, 2011 10:43 PM EST via mobile reply actions
If he does accept arb, he's only on the books for 2012.
This is guaranteed money in 2013, too, which is where most are taking umbrage. Either the compensatory pick or Chen on the rolls for 2012 is much better than Chen guaranteed money for the next two years since he could blow out his elbow/shoulder this season and be a payroll suck for an entire season where the Royals may well be competitive.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 23, 2011 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
Also, if Chen had accepted arb...
…that would at least mean that Dayton did it the right way. Regardless of what else happens/happened, we do know that Chen was offered a two-year deal by the Royals. That move is completely inconsistent with even trying to get the comp pick. So, we do at least know that DM spit on the comp pick. Whether it would have worked out that way or not, we can’t say.
For the record, I think he would have declined arb in an effort to get a two-year deal. But yeah, I don’t know that.
don't mind chen so much
he does a decent enough job, and the $/WAR seems reasonable for 2012 at least…don’t understand the 2nd year and don’t understand forsaking the comp pick…unnecessary move by Dayton.
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
--Albert Einstein
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Nov 23, 2011 11:43 PM EST reply actions
Chen...
You ma ma make me happy!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/kDnJdNOMgXc/SLtdw4a-fHI/AAAAAAAAAms/Vnc5Cx5zRug/s400/simplejack.jpg
I hope this works..
Cap it, and watch the players association strike it. http://budtheclark.mlblogs.com/
Well...
I wanted the actual picture to show….the link is pointless…..Ben Stiller as ‘Simple Jack’
Cap it, and watch the players association strike it. http://budtheclark.mlblogs.com/
not sure why that http address didn't work - here's a similar one, i hope:

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:38 AM EST up reply actions
Someone needs to sit down and tell Dayton
you never go full retard.
by royalrevenge on Nov 25, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
So are we still supposed to be optimistic that Dayton Moore is improving?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:06 AM EST reply actions
damn you scott mckinney
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
Were you on a plane or something?
I’ve been waiting for this all night.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
Doing some pre-cooking for Thanksgiving
…and this is the thanks I get.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
I was brining the turkey and doing some other prep while listening to Goldstein talk Royals prospects
and then got in front of the computer to see this. Grrr. Arrgh.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
It's a real kick in the nuts
This is another one of those “I’ll give Dayton the benefit of the doubt that he won’t make this mistake. Sure he makes a lot of mistakes like this, but he surely won’t punt the comp pick and give Chen two guaranteed years, will he?” Even when I think he can’t let me down, Dayton lets me down.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with all the complaints
One contingency that might explain it, mentioned by billexgordler, (I’m not trying to defend DM, just making sure we consider all the possibilities), is what if Chen said he was going to accept arb unless they gave him 2 years? Then the Type B pick was a moot point, and it’s just a matter of the committing 2 years (hard to see how that makes sense).
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:46 AM EST up reply actions
Even if Chen/Boras said they were definitely going to accept arb, this deal makes no sense
The Royals have the payroll flexibility to easily afford Chen this year (even at potentially $6M, but $5M would have been the more likely number, perhaps less). But for 2013, things are tighter given contract raises and likely arbitration awards. And if the Royals want to go out and get a good FA or two, any millions that you tie up for 2013 makes that harder.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
link to the goldstein talk?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
Royalman Report.
I was also listening to Up and In from a couple weeks back where they talked Royals system.
http://kingsofkauffman.com/2011/11/23/kevin-goldstein-of-baseball-prospectus-on-a-special-royalman-report/
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:22 AM EST up reply actions
Up and In (only a little bit is for KC)
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=15369
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
Sure looks like it, I mean he locked up Chen before he could get expensive.
great move by Dayton
Go Royals!
Plus the KC media is all on board.
Dutton was pointing out how if you only look at his 24 wins the last two years, that puts him tied for 14th in the AL, and with fewer starts then any of the others.
ACE!!!
Go Royals!
Zing!
I’m glad someone else posted that joke so I didn’t have to.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
YOU BITCH
Don’t you know DM has a family!!!
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 24, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually laughed out loud there.
Cackled even.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Hey, he's a really nice guy and bright too. How dare we criticize him?
He’ll probably never give an interview to any of us ingrates.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
Have you caught up on the comments?
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Had to skip through a bunch of them
I can’t believe there was a long discussion on the Chen signing that led to skinny comments on the right hand side and I wasn’t in it at all. I feel empty inside now.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
those skinny comments are bullshit...
cant fucking tell whats going on
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
I like it -
lets me know when i can skip ahead
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:39 AM EST up reply actions
It's the same old shit.
People wanting to make grand statements about how we at Royals Review hate Dayton Moore and never give him credit, blah blah blah.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
Oh god, I'm glad I skipped it then
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
Yes,
it’s tiresome being you, Scott.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
if you like bald assertions that the royals will have a $90MM payroll, it's for you
if you like thoughtful analysis regarding how best to spend our GMDM quoted$55-$60MM-budget next year, and in 2013, then you won’t
Pretty close to it.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Nov 24, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dayton Moore really does love giving multi-year deals to mediocre players for which there isn't much of a market
Gload
Farnsworth
Bloomquist
Francoeur
Chen
Kendall
“This guy’s so mediocre, I’d better lock him down for two years!” — Dayton Moore
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:22 AM EST reply actions
Which is the worst?
I’d have to say Gload, but it might be Kendall.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
i feel like you should take bloomie off that list...clearly there is a market for him for multiyear deals
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know if there was when Moore signed him
And I think the number of teams willing to give him two years now is very, very small.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
fortunately for bloomquist and all the rest of those guys above....only one team is needed
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
Unfortunately, that team is usually the Royals...
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 24, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
even more pointless than the most pointless of DM signings
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 12:48 AM EST up reply actions
hooray for 6-10 if all goes well with orton
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
The Chiefs are still enough below cap that I suppose it's not a horrible thing,
other than that he would be blocking Stanzi from getting a few spot starts (but I kind of doubt the team would have gone that route anyway.)
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 24, 2011 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
Except Orton should bring back a 4th round compensatory pick.
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
by averagegatsby on Nov 24, 2011 1:19 AM EST up reply actions
Yes. More like when another team signs him.
He isn’t going to be unemployed, barring serious injury, and indications are he doesn’t really want to be in KC.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 24, 2011 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
Yep...
Its a win win scenario really. Either Orton plays well and the Chiefs have a replacement, or they let him walk and take the extra pick.
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
by averagegatsby on Nov 24, 2011 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
not sure how that works in the NFL...why does orton bring a pick back?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
others can explain further, but any FA signed away gets compensated by an extra pick
decided by the NFL FO, weighted by how good they decide the player is, I think. If you sign FA away from other teams, that works against the FA’s you lost.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 24, 2011 2:42 AM EST up reply actions
even with only 8 or 9 starts?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
I HATE this.
I’m also a Broncos fan (primarily a Broncos fan for most of my life…I’ve sinced switched allegiance to the Cheifs since living in KC for a while). Orton did absolutely zip for the team. He offers no upside whatsoever. I think Cassel is easily better than him. Remember, Orton got benched for Rex Bipolar Grossman for an entire season. He’s not much better now. That should speak to you about his talent level.
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise... uninspired off-season moves, that is what I am thankful for.
Last chance to take advantage of Type B status and get a draft pick for a mid-30s swing man, so instead you more than double his pay and guarantee him two years… brilliant! Of course this type of move will appease the droopy eyed, arm less children until Bruce goes under the knife in May.
Conspiracy theory:
Chen had a secret clause in his contract that would net him a sizable bonus for every first place vote he got in the FanGraphs Cy Young poll this year. To avoid it kicking in, Moore arranged to have a certain vote stricken from the record. Chen’s agent caught wind of it, and to prevent it from blowing over and costing him his job, Moore agreed to give him an overly generous contract.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 24, 2011 1:30 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Fuck yes
We love u Chen. One of my bullet points from the DVD contest comes true!
I am the one who knocks.
The real reason
Is so he can be Darvish’s translator…they both speak Asian right?
by NobodyFsWDeJesus on Nov 24, 2011 6:55 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Chen Speaks Central
American, too.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
those comment in the middle
too thin; didn’t read
I am probably the only Royals fan in Hong Kong?
by Yamfun Cheng Kamfun on Nov 24, 2011 10:11 AM EST reply actions
Very wise.
Having been around when they were going on, it was a waste of an evening.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 25, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
What about Montgomery?
Seriously. Rotation, as of now, will be
Hochevar
Paulino
Sanchez
Chen
Duffy/Crow
What happens when Montgomery’s ready? There aren’t any Kyle Davies-like people on that list. While not lighting up the world, that rotation is arguably likely to be average (an improvement over years past). Who do you pull for Montgomery? Assuming someone’s injured, what happens when the injured person comes back?
I realize that good teams face this issue all the time with prospects. But the issue I have with Chen’s 2 year deal is that it seems he will end up blocking people. Odorizzi, Montgomery, Lamb, Dwyer, and ideally Crow would all debut within the next two years in the rotation (hopefully). Assuming Sanchez is gone, that leaves a grand total of 1 spot open in the rotation.
That rotation is average if a lot goes well.
Hochevar had a good half of a season. Paulino was solid, but still just a mid-rotation guy most likely. Sanchez is a huge question mark. Chen is a back-end guy. Duffy is a question mark. Crow got fatigued and faded as a reliever last year..no reason to put any stock in his ability to be a starter next year. Montgomery struggled in AAA last year, he’s a question mark at best for the 2012 season.
Saying that rotation is “likely to be average” is a huge stretch.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 24, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That rotation is not likely to be average
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't say they were likely to be average.
I said that they are “arguably likely to be average.” There is a decent case to be made that they are average, whether you think so or not. A big reason that case can be made is that none of them have to actually be any particularly good to be an average rotation.
Will it happen? Maybe. But I’d say that its almost a lock that the Royals 2012 rotation will be better-perhaps significantly-than the 2011 rotation.
I didn’t say they were likely to be average.
I said that they are "arguably likely to be average."
You’re splitting hairs.
There is a decent case to be made that they are average, whether you think so or not
I don’t think a good statistical argument can be made that that rotation is likely to be average. And if statistics don’t support it, then I don’t know what the basis of this “decent case” is.
A big reason that case can be made is that none of them have to actually be any particularly good to be an average rotation.
I think we all know what average means. And if none of them are particularly good, in order for the rotation to be average overall, then each of those 5 pitchers (plus fill-ins) would have to be about average. That is exceedingly unlikely.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Eh...
I’m not splitting hairs, but the difference is subtle.
I didn’t get the memo as to what we all know what average means….seriously, what do you think it means? I’m taking average to mean an ERA+ of 100 and that’s it (ERA+ because it is simple and good for comparison with the rest of the league). This would mean that, by last year’s numbers, for an average rotation no one would have to pitch any better than a 4.11 ERA.
“Average” also is a somewhat loose term, I think…even a staff ERA+ of 90something would be pretty good. Do you really think that’s not possible?
Hochevar’s 2nd half was the best sustained half of his entire career. As an extreme youngster, Duffy is much, much more likely to improve than stay the same or get worse. Sanchez’s BB rate is a run over his career BB rate and looks like an outlier; even a small drop in walks would help him rebound. These developments are, to me, promising. Do you not think so?
We’re talking about average pitching performance. And I wouldn’t measure pitching performance by ERA, as that doesn’t do a good job of measuring what the pitcher actually does. It includes a lot of defense and even some relief pitching.
This would mean that, by last year’s numbers, for an average rotation no one would have to pitch any better than a 4.11 ERA.
And, equally importantly, no one would have to pitch any worse than a 4.11 ERA. And this is exceedingly unlikely.
"Average" also is a somewhat loose term, I think…even a staff ERA+ of 90something would be pretty good. Do you really think that’s not possible?
An ERA+ of 90 is considerably below average. That’s at about the level of an average #4 SP. Do I think it is possible that this rotation could be 10% below average? Sure.
Yes there is some talent in this rotation and there were some promising developments last year. But that’ doesn’t mean that it is likely that the rotation will be league average next year.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 25, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
At some point you have to actually reward your players
for performing. I know in the stathead universe, xFIP, and $/WAR, along with age curve progression are the be all end all. However at some point you need to send a message to players that if you perform you will be compensated. This was the same motivation for the Butler extension and for the ongoing negotiations with Alex Gordon.
Do I believe that Chen was going to get more than 1 yr at 4 million with a club option @ 5 for the second year? Probably not.. After all he was available for a C+ prospect at the last 2 deadlines and nobody offered. But at the same time he did his job. I don’t know how many of you work for organizations that screw you over on compensation because of your perceived market value when you are performing well above expectations but it typically leads to a poisonous environment. We basically gave a guy who produced our best ERA over the last 2 years 1 million dollars more than a Nebraska dual threat QB who hasn’t been tested against real HS baseball competition.
This team has enough raw talent in the pipeline to win the next 3-4 years; now the intangibles matter; clubhouse chemistry; morale; player ego management take a role.. A bad clubhouse on a 70 win team means you win 65 games(who cares?); A bad clubhouse on a 90 win team means you miss the playoffs.
by dyehardfan on Nov 24, 2011 11:20 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
We need to send a message that if you perform well you will be compensated afterwards?
Horseshit. Once players start giving the team back some of their salary when they suck, then we can start paying players based on past performance. This “we need to pay players who did well for us in the past” argument is just wrong.
Butler was extended b/c they think he’s going to be good during the duration of his new contract. Same with Gordon if he’s extended. You NEVER pay for past performance. You pay for future performance.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 24, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Couldn't agree with this more
And I really wish the “give money back when you start sucking” would apply specifically to the Francoeur extension.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 24, 2011 3:20 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions 1 recs
I mean, it's nice that Meche did it. It really is.
But it resulted in a New York Times feature for a reason.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 24, 2011 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
Jeff King too.
Guys will walk away from millions to avoid being Royals.
Chris And Larry
Johnson beg to differ.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 24, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
So the Royals should ignore market value and reward....what? ERA? Pitcher Wins?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
When you pay
3 million to some 16YO kid in the DR, 9 million over 2 years for a proven ML pitcher isn’t so bad
Jamie Moyer is a proven ML pitcher too. So let's give him 9 million over 2 years too.
Logic.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
In case you didn’t figure it out, I was pointing out that R_F’s “logic” was that “9 million over 2 years for a proven ML pitcher isn’t bad.” If “proven ML pitcher” is his only criteria, then there are many crappy pitchers that fit that. You need to look deeper. You need to look at meaningful stats, not just ERA and pitcher wins. You need to take age into account. You need to account for injury history. And for Chen, that certainly doesn’t add up to $9M over 2 years. That is, unless you’re Dayton Moore.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 24, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
You're assuming that "Proven ML pitcher" is the only criteria
by which R_F was judging him. Obviously there are other factors, and obviously Moyer for that money would not be good (unless Moyer is in fact immortal, which is possible). I think he knew that, as do you and I.
I'm not assuming anything. I'm going only by the words he posted.
Yes, there are other factors. And it is those other factors where Bruce Chen falls short.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 25, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
and has been just about as good over the past 5 years
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 24, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
but could break a hip falling out of bed
Come on, he is one of the oldest pitchers in the 150 year history of baseball and he missed all of last season with major arm surgery.
Im guessing he doesn’t get more than a minorleague deal with a ST invite.
Out of curiousity...
…how do you know what a “proven ML pitcher” is worth this year?
And, frankly, I don’t see a whole lot of people in here complaining about the price of the Chen contract. Maybe there’s just so many other things wrong with this deal that no one has gotten around to addressing the price, but I doubt it.
I wouldn’t have a problem with paying a pitcher $9M over two years… even a pitcher of roughly Chen’s abilities. If that were the real cost of this signing, I’d be perfectly happy. That isn’t the real cost, though, and the signing was dumb.
you'll see the point of this all when the Royals win 79 instead of 78 next year.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 24, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
mrs. cogan says
she likes the chen signing….he’s a nice guy. “now we have two nice guys on the team”.
$50 schrute bucks for the first person on here who can guess who the other “nice guy” is.
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
--Albert Einstein
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Nov 24, 2011 5:17 PM EST reply actions
There's no reason to give mediocre talent multiple guaranteed years
Because mediocre talent can be found on cheap one-year deals every year. They are easily replaceable. But when Dayton falls in love with a chunk of grit, he wants to lock it down for as long as possible.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
Ne he doesn't.
It is not an infinate contract, it is not even a lifetime contract.
Go Royals!
Just based on xFIP...
How do the Royals compete in the AL Central?
Tigers xFIP
Verlander 3.12
Scherzer 3.70
Porcello 4.02
Penny 4.77
Fister 2.75
Total: 18.36
Indians xFIP
Masterson 3.64
Tomlin 4.03
Carmona 4.17
Ubaldo 3.81
Carrasco 4.07
Total: 19.72
White Sox xFIP
Buehrle 3.98
Floyd 3.81
Danks 3.82
Peavy 3.52
Sale 3.00
Total: 18.13
Royals xFIP
Hochevar 4.05
Chen 4.68
Paulino 3.74
Sanchez 4.36
Crow 3.34
Total: 20.17
Twins xFIP
Pavano 4.14
Duensing 4.05
Blackburn 4.32
Baker 3.61
Liriano 4.52
Total: 20.64
Switch Duffy for Crow, and it gets even worse for the Royals. Of course, this is using 2011 xFIPs and thus is a very crude estimation. But it puts the Royals in 4th in the AL Central.
What this says is that the Royals did not improve the starting rotation, which was priority #1 this offseason. Adding Jonathan Sanchez is not enough…in fact, it made our rotation worse from a xFIP perspective (switching Sanchez for Francis).
These Royals starters do not strike fear into the heart of opponents like the starters on other teams. How many of them would you draft in a fantasy baseball draft? Maybe a late round flyer on Paulino? Maybe Sanchez for some K’s? That’s about it. We still need a big impact starter. You have to go through 34 AL starters ranking in WAR before you get to the first Royals starter:
Sabathia 7.1 WAR
Verlander
Haren
Wilson
Weaver
Fister
Hernandez
Masterson
Shields
McCarthy
Price
Beckett
Harrison
Lester
Holland
Floyd
Ogando
Gonzalez
Humber
Morrow
Buehrle
Pineda
Santana
Danks
Jackson
Peavy
Colon
Romero
Pavano
Scherzer
Porcello
Baker
Nova
Paulino 2.6 WAR
This must change. Back when the Royals were in the playoffs, we had great starting pitching (Splitt, Leonard, Busby, Gura, Saberhagen, Gubicza, Liebrandt, Gordon, Black, etc.)
I just don’t see how we can compete with what we have now…nothing is going to change, even if we have a great hitting team, we won’t have the starting pitching to compete in 2012.
Thoughts?
David
First off, you can't add Crow's xFIP in because he was a reliver, so basically add 1.00 to his xFIP.
So the Royals are actually dead last. But you can’t just look at last year’s xFIP, you have to average more years into that to get an accurate picture. Still, it doesn’t look too good for the Royals. If you don’t do that, the task looks pretty daunting, as the difference between the Royals and the White Sox is about 300 runs. This would have to be made up with the offense, defense, relief core, base running, and luck combined over our divisional foes. One piece of good news is that luck is on our side. It is more likely that injuries do more damage to our foes then to us. Our starters are closer to replacement level, and our position players are younger. The other is that starters pitch in less high leverage situations, so that 300 runs is actully not really worth 30 wins of difference, it is more like 25 wins.
Go Royals!
yes, but you can subtract 1.5 to Chen's xFIP
now that he doesn’t have to worry about his financial security and whether he’ll have to subsist on a diet of Alpo and ramen noodles
batter nine you sucky
Right, that’s why I stated using last year’s xFIP is a “very crude estimation” for 2012.
Good point about our starters being closer to replacement level, and thus if our opponents have a starter or two go down with injury it is much more damaging to them that it is to the Royals to lose one to injury.
That's just good strategery
If you have lots of guys who suck, then when one of the starting sucky guys goes down, you’re covered.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 25, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Suckage Is Suckage
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 25, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
I've always thought that the best move would be to develop the in-house guys.
Give Crow/Montgomery this year enough time to make starts and find out about them/develop them. Two possible good pitchers for free—THEN make a move.
Everyone has such a short memory. We did have a fantastic starting pitcher—his name is Zack Greinke. What if the Royals refused to trade him? That’s likely 5 WAR right there. Can you imagine how awesome would it be to have this September’s lineup with Greinke pitching?
The Royals had an ace. To trade for a ‘top starting pitcher’ a year after trading Greinke is extremely shortsided. So I don’t think the Royals should go get someone.
I like this strategy, Yoda
But if this is the strategy, then I don’t believe 2012 is the year for contention.
Guys like Chen, Sanchez, Hochevar, and the 2011 version of Duffy aren’t going to get it done, even in this weak division.
I think about the Hudson, Mulder, Zito era of the A’s. It took them about 3 years to begin dominating, if I recall correctly. Our version of Hudson, Mulder, Zito could be Montgomery, Duffy, Crow…maybe a Lamb or Dwyer thrown once they’re ready.
It'll take time, yes
Next year’s free agent market should be better for starters, even considering some of them signing extensions. Then the Royals should make a move.
I keep hoping and praying the return of Greinke will occur in 2013…it could happen if the Brewers lose Fielder and begin a downward trend. It would be so fitting for him to return to the Royals.
This is a reasonable move
Critics and stat heads will always have something bad to say. It is the safe play. If the guy fumbles, you made the call already. If he works out, oh well, Dayton was lucky, good for the Royals, he is still an idiot. Dayton has to sign folks that are willing to play here and for a low price to boot. This being the case, you have to deal early. Waiting restricts your pool even further, and in the Royals case, drives up the price of the available talent. This is basic supply and demand, the Royals have the demand, but very limited supply.
So, what does this signing really say? The free agent pool the Royals can draw on is very shallow. Chen, in all likelihood, is the highest quality FA pitcher willing to don Royal Blue. In a case like this, 9M over 2 years for a guy that can be useful to the team is a good deal.
1/5 would have been better
Chen declining the arbitration offer and getting a compensatory draft pick would have been even better. There was no good reason to give him two guaranteed years.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 25, 2011 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
It is not a reasonable move.
Chen isn’t special. He’s a decent pitcher, but there’s plenty of decent pitchers in the world. What makes Chen different from all of those other guys this year is that we had to give up a compensation pick to sign him. If you add the value of that compensation pick to the contract that Chen just signed, the real cost of this deal is somewhere in the neighborhood of $14M.
In an earlier thread, we discussed other guys who could take “Chen’s spot” in our rotation. Most of them are likely to have similar value (some higher, some lower) to Chen in 2012, and a few of them are long-shots with higher upside that Chen (e.g. Bedard), but none of them would have cost a compensation pick:
Erik Bedard
Chris Capuano
Jeff Francis
Freddy Garcia
Aaron Harang
Livan Hernandez
Paul Maholm
Jason Marquis
Joel Pineiro
From that list, I think my first choice would be either Capuano or Francis on a one-year deal. But the details aren’t particularly important. What matters is this: I have no doubt—no doubt at all—that there are better ways to spend $14M somewhere on that (non-exhaustive) list. You could probably get two or three of the guys on that list for $14M if you were willing to spend the money in 2012 instead of over two years and/or if you are willing to take a risk on someone like Bedard. Even if you can’t spend the whole thing this year, I expect you could still have landed any of those guys for less than $7M.
And that brings up another reason this deal was dumb. Why are we signing a pitcher of average talent to a two-year deal in a thin pitching market? The supply of starting pitching is near-universally expected to be stronger next year. By signing a two-year deal now, Dayton has just bought a commodity at the current “seller’s market” price that he won’t be using until next year, after the advent of the next “buyer’s market.”
There really is no way to call this signing a reasonable move unless you completely ignore the context in which it happened.
The only reasonable context you can look at for this move is that
it will be considered a good publicity move. Chen is popular with the fans and the KC media. Is the media really having that much of an influence on the Royals personnel decisions?
Go Royals!
So, what does this signing really say?
It says that Dayton Moore still doesn’t get it when it comes to MLB free agency moves.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 25, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
If Chen and Francoeur are still starting for this team by the 2013 in-season trading deadline
I will be quite put out.
We should trade for Vance Worley.
Can someone explain to me how a crappy pitcher like Chen wins 24 gms for the crappiest team in the league?
If Chen is so bad, how did he manage to win 24 games in 2 yrs? And, this is a guess, but his run support was nothing but average, correct?
If Chen delivers another ~12 wins, is it not a huge success?
Winzzzz!
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 27, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
'nuff said
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 28, 2011 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
you cannot be debated
you say it was a stupid move thusis must be and thus DM is an idiot. Next
Your handle disturbs me.
It evokes the moment of climax specifically in an extremely awkward way.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 27, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
And that moment is of a nondescript entity.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 27, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
Can we make one assumption?
Assuming Davies, Mazzaro, and SOS combine for 0 starts in 2012, the Royals have improved their rotation. If nothing else, addition by subtraction.

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