Melky Cabrera - Jonathan Sanchez Trade Overflow Thread
by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 3:41 PM EST
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PrintTwo out of three people who think Dayton Moore is incompetent think this trade is at least decent for the Royals. Take that for whatever it's worth.
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Nice job on the overflow thread...
but couldn’t you at least give credit to Will?
by halfmanhalfshark on Nov 7, 2011 3:43 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Will gets credit for everything!!!!!
Why doesn’t anyone talk about me?
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
if it makes you feel better...
i was nearly on my knees begging to hear what you’d have to say about it
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
I was also very interested in my opinion
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
His negativity reached critical mass and he imploded
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
clearly the happy face boxers were a cry for help
not to mention the suspender snapping
by Nighthawk at the Diner on Nov 7, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
I'm at work.
I’m limited.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Someone needs to give SBNation KC a dose of reality
It was a smart trade, but this sort of blind knee-jerk complete praise is what needs to be avoided
They aren't good at writing about baseball
In fact, they are pretty awful.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Matt Connor is a complete fucking idiot... He isn't good at writing football either.
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2006: Royals win% = .420, Chiefs win% = .354
by averagegatsby on Nov 7, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
yeah that guy is crazy bad
I’ve always just assumed he was friends with someone at the corporate office, or something. I really can’t think of anything else.
C. Montgomery Hunt: One of the greatest heroes in American history.
yeah...i already gave the trade a grade of an A
and i think that is over the top
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
sbnation kansas city is pretty wothless. The quality of writing at the ‘city’ site isn’t nearly as good as what’s at the team-specific sites. Anything written on sbnation kansas city will get linked to the team sites and vice-versa anyway. I don’t understand the point. It just creates redundancy and lower-quality analysis.
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 7, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
I don’t understand the point of having the city site either.
by Connor Moylan on Nov 7, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
If I want Royals news, I’ll go to a Royals site. I’m never thinking to myself, “I wonder what sports-related is happening in the city at-large….”
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 7, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
but how else could you possibly find out that both sporting AND the chiefs lost yesterday
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
you'd never know it around here recently...
i cant even count how many people were talking nonsense about how sporting had overtaken the royals as the #2 team in KC…yet, an hour and a half before a home playoff game the owner came on the radio saying ‘there are still tickets available’ in their 20,000 seat stadium….i’ll be camped out for a week when royals tickets go on sale
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Those had to be SRO tickets
The stadium looked jam packed last night. Even the standing room areas looked a couple people deep
nope...real tickets available at 430 according to rob heineman
for last tues or wed game
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, the game last week in the monsoon
Yeah, I can believe that. I think SKC had the best attendance for any of the games that round except Seatlle, but there were definitely empty seats, especially when the rain was coming down in sheets at kickoff.
I was at both games
and for both of them, there were people standing in the aisles because all the bleachers were full. I was in the supporters’ section, though, and can only speak for that.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
i have no doubt that they eventually sold out and sold standing room tickets...
just the absurdity of people claiming that they’ve surpassed the royals when they have tickets available 90 minutes before a home playoff game in a new 20k seat stadium that bothered me
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
I'm with you
I can watch Sporting live, but the product on TV is terrible. Way too much “dump and chase,” not nearly enough skill
by Connor Moylan on Nov 7, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
clearly you're just too simple minded to understand soccer
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Eh
MLS is a very different beast to European soccer.
About 3 years ago Colorado went to England a played a few games, they got spanked 3-0 by a third tier (AA) side.
It’s not a good league.
Edgar knows best.
Seriously? That’s about as relevant as pointing out that KC beat Manchester United last summer and tied Newcastle this summer. Those are meaningless games.
It's not a good league
compared to the big European leagues. Barça would absolutely stomp any MLS team, and the difference in quality of play is abysmal. Many of the better US players are playing abroad anyway.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
Tied this weekend at Athletic Bilbao
Madrid’s leading the league and Levante is the lousy team off to a quick start.
Note to Argentine fans: Leo Messi does not play as well for the national team as he does for Barcelona. However, with Barcelona, he has Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Fàbregas, Villa, and Pedro feeding him the ball. Therefore, he scores goals out the ass. With Argentina he has a lot of teammates who are much worse players than he is, and who couldn’t feed him the ball in a baby spoon.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
Levante's performance this season has been amazing
But I think Levante is probably are more reasonable comparison for MLS teams than Barca.
When is the last time Barca lost? They’re undefeated in La Liga and Champions League this year. I know that they won the Champions League Final last year and I’m don’t think they lost either match in their Semi Final against Madrid. It seemed like they held off Madrid down the stretch in La Liga — I don’t remember any late losses then. How long has it been?
They lost last year's final of the Copa del Rey
to Real Madrid. That’s the last loss I remember.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
its like watching AA baseball, no thanks
and with AA baseball at least you’d get a chance to see future MLB guys. with MLS, youre watching guys stuck in AA forever.
GOING TO TWO SEPARATE BLOGS IS NOT AN OPTION!
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 7, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
You can't even comment there
Without doing via Facebook, which i have zero intention of ever doing.
Edgar knows best.
you gotta think they'll offer arb and hope he says no...
i didnt hear moore talk about bringing chen back when asked if they were done acquiring pitching but who knows
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
right now we got hochevar-duffy-paulino-sanchez
chen still isn’t a terrible option. i think the best part about this trade and his rejection of myers/cain for jurrjens/prado, is that it may show DM isn’t going to go crazy this offseason.
by BeauJackson on Nov 7, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yep...seems like it might be like last offseason where he made somewhat minor, short term moves
to keep us at a respectable mlb team without mortgaging the future
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
which i have no problem with
the young guys are still unproven as a whole, no reason to sell the farm yet.
All of the sudden we’d get pretty left-handed. Sanchez, Duffy, Chen, Montgomery
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 7, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
I think the whole RH SP and LH SP thing is irrelevant
Moore often said how important a having LH SP was. I don’t think it matters a damn. You need good pitchers. It doesn’t really matter if they are RH, LH, or shoot the ball out of their arses.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
shoot the ball out of their arses
find me this guy and im all on board with the wil myers trade
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
I don't know about Wil Myers, but I heard William Wallace
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 7, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
How did he do in the Arizona Fall League?
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
His stuff looked good
But he fried the radar gun with his first arse-bolt, so we don’t know much about his velocity.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 7, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But he keeps yelling FREEEEDOMMMM every time Francoeur hits a HR
Nick Swisher and Johnny Giavatella deserve treats in the Kaufmann parking lot.
by ChrisCEIT on Nov 7, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Perhaps a Dirty Jonathan Sanchez?
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
the dreaded inverted colon
didn’t they almost have to put Bart Simpson’s dog down for the very same malady many years ago?
by Nighthawk at the Diner on Nov 7, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
The only time I could imagine it mattering is in a playoff series
Where if your rotation is stacked to one side, you could get lucky or unlucky depending on your opponent. With a balanced rotation, you can’t get lucky or screwed.
I agree that its importance is typically overblown, but it would be odd. And I could see Moore freaking out over it.
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 7, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
The Royals had a great all lefty rotation once
Affeldt, Gobble, Anders,….who were the rest? God that rotation sucked.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, I didn't like Myers for Jurrjens when I first heard about it
but it would totally make sense now to balance out the rotation.
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by Matt Klaassen on Nov 7, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
If it comes out of their asses it probably has good movement
…I knew that was bad, but I hit POST anyway.
Good question
In no particular order
1. Hochevar
2. Sanchez
3. Paulino
4. Duffy
5. Chen
Probably. But I don’t think Moore is done dealing. I wonder if he’d pay $5M for a 6th starter.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
The fun part of that list is that any one of those 5 could easily be either the best or the worst of the bunch.
I hope it works out in a fun way
Could be a race to the top, or the bottom.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Also, Sanchez as the best would be pretty bittersweet
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
What about bringing back Francis?
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Nov 7, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
That's fine
I’d rather offer Chen arbitration though and see if he’ll decline.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Do you think the Sanchez acquisition makes it more likely that Melky says no? Maybe Chen realizes he’d be the 5/6 starter/long man in that scenario or something. I’m banking on him wanting a multiple year offer.
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 7, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe it does
Don’t know. I think he knows he’d have a pretty much guaranteed rotation space now. But there’s a risk that if he doesn’t pitch well, someone like Monty could replace him.
I still think his decision to accept or not is all about the money. If he’s getting better offers than 1/5, I think he’d decline. If he isn’t, then he’d accept.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
I'd like to bring back Bruce
And make a bid on Edwin Jackson. Right now Sanchez is either deadline trade material or a candidate for an extension, depending on how he pitches, since he’s only got one year before free agency.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
Because
Bruce has been pretty good the last two years, and he’ll be cheap; Edwin Jackson is a solid, consistent pitcher who does not get hurt and could be had for Gil Meche money; and Sanchez was hurt part of last year and may disappoint next year.
If we’re mired in fourth place at the deadline, trade Sanchez for what you can get for him before he goes free-agent. If we’re actually competing, then keep him, especially if he’s pitching well. And if we’re going to keep him it might make sense to offer him an extension.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
the part that i dont get is jackson...
you’ll likely be able to get a better pitcher for the same/less money next offseason…and you wont be wasting 15 million on a likely non competitive season
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 9, 2011 8:28 AM EST up reply actions
Point taken
You sure he’ll get $15m a year? I was figuring on more like $10-$12m, maybe with heavy incentives. But I’m bearish on the economy and see wages dropping across the board, from K-mart cashier to CEO to starting pitcher.
But if Dayton isn’t going for it in 2012, why did he trade Melky for Sanchez, whom we’ll only have for one year unless he extends? I’m all for trading Melky and selling high, but Dayton could have gotten a couple of C prospects for him. Verdugo’s a nice throw-in who might be a decent reliever someday.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
bringing back terry ryan...glory days
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
You better get over to TwinkieTown.com
and make sure none of those shady bastards steal your thunder.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 7, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
did dayton go on nick wright already?
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from royals.com
Which team got the best of this trade?
Giants53%
Royals46%
Results delayed up to 5 minutes.
Fans are the worst
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
I don't even get what people are objecting to
Sanchez is kind of a ‘name’ pitcher and he won a fricking World Series two years ago. It seems like the casual fan would be all over that.
"What have you done for me lately" syndrome
For lots of fans, what the player did in the prior year is everythying. Melky was good, Sanchez not so much. And Melky had a good year in Royal Blue. That counts double.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
I would have thought that the casual fan would have loved this trade
Because we need pitching. I guess I also expected that the casual fan had heard of Cain (from the Greinke trade, if nothing else), but maybe not.
The world’s a twisted place.
Because we need pitching.
But you shouldn’t get pitching by giving up one of our very best players!
I guess I also expected that the casual fan had heard of Cain (from the Greinke trade, if nothing else), but maybe not.
Just some guy in the minors. Also, I think most casual fans have barely ever heard of Jonathan Sanchez.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
melky had some good catches and hit some homers and stole some bases....casual fans love that shit
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
oh well hell, if what they want is the past..
i guess no-hitters thrown must register up around getting kicked in the balls.
by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Nov 7, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
i'm not a huge sanchez fan because i'm not sure the K's will hold up in the AL
but DM showing he has a clue by keeping Cain’s six years around is pretty much enough
Cain has a pretty good chance to be worth keeping around for three, maybe four of those
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
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by Matt Klaassen on Nov 7, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Then the Royals will have the almost impossible task of choosing between Eibner and Starling
I’m already confused. Can you imagine what it will be like in the clubhouse?
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
what's actually interesting
is that there seem to be some rumblings that the Royals don’t really believe Cain’s bat is good enough to play full-time in the majors. I guess we’ll see how much there was to that.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 7, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
I don't believe that the Royals believe that
I think the Royals FO sees CF, SS, and C as defensive positions. Any hitting is just icing on the cake.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
thats a lot of icing from sal perez then! he is what we saw this year, without a doubt.
cream cheese icing too!
C I agree with you on
Those positions are regularly going to be your bottom of the order guys. I think hitting matters, but do does defense, and at those positions if you can do both with any consistency you’re an All-Star and a highly, highly paid player.
We can’t say the Royals don’t care about defense in CF when Melky and Ankiel are there and then say they only care about defense when Maier or Cain are out there.
On the other two positions, the big questions are letting Aviles and Buck go. Both arose out of injury situations too.
by WURoyal on Nov 7, 2011 5:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Apparently Ankiel and Melky were just short-term place holders
They don’t see hitting first, defense second guys to be real long-term solutions for positions up the middle.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
To be fair
Ankiel wasn’t good and Melky was traded because we have a cost-controlled back-up.
We didn’t sign Melky to a long-term deal, but I think the evidence supporting your point is anecdotal at best.
But I think Cain was acquired because they thought his bat could probably play but his glove definitely would in CF
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by Old Man Duggan on Nov 9, 2011 1:29 AM EST up reply actions
i missed it...but apparently dayton was on 610 and said the royals are still interested in zambrano and chen
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Zambrano?
Cheap one-year deal?
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Holy crap
It that’s true, his contract contains a poison pill.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
not true how im reading it....
Zambrano receives 2013 player option if 1) he is first or second in 2011 Cy Young vote or if he finishes in top 4 in 2012 Cy Young vote and 2) he is healthy at end of 2012
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
good thing will didnt steal that shitty scoop from you
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
good thing that one is there for your portfolio for SI
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
I'd trade Paulo Orlando for Zambrano and $14M
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
It’s hard to give up all that speed and Brazlianness, but you have to give up talent to acquire talent.
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions
How awesome would it be if the wording actually limited it to the NL Cy Young voting?
Nick Swisher and Johnny Giavatella deserve treats in the Kaufmann parking lot.
by ChrisCEIT on Nov 7, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It could happen!
especially if he moves to the AL
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by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
If that happens
At the end of September David Glass will fly up from Bentonville, walk out to the mound at Arvest Field at Kauffman Stadium before Zambrano’s last start and cut off his right arm with a chainsaw.
by thelaundry on Nov 7, 2011 4:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Interesting
I can see Z being kinda undervalued right now, in terms of trade value. Depends on what the financials are, but its not my money.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Kinda ...
He alluded that Chen and his agent’s demands were a bit high at the moment (though he acknowledged that they have every right to get the most they can), but that the Royals would love to have Chen back if things level out and the price is right.
As for Zambrano, it was a specific question from Nick Wright’s producer: “Would you take Carlos Zambrano if the Cubs were just going to give him to you?” Moore’s answer was, basically, ‘yeah, that’s a great question, I think Zambrano’s a really good guy off the field. He’s had his problems with controlling his emotions in the heat of competition, but based on his talent, I think you’d have to consider taking him.’
by OFP on Nov 8, 2011 12:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Other topics broached ...
1) Moore said Cain’s the guy in CF and said that they definitely preferred NOT to trade Cain, although they had to weigh every offer they were given.
2) He said the current price tags on free agent starting pitchers are much too high for the Royals’ current situation, but that hopefully at some point things with come back down and they might be able to go after someone else.
3) He was asked about a possible extension for Gordon, and he said there was no urgency by either side to get anything done right now with 2 more years left on Gordon’s current contract, but he really likes Gordon and hopes that those conversations will occur this offseason.
by OFP on Nov 8, 2011 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
cool, thanks for summarizing
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 8, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
i hope one of lebron's guys beats the shit out of this guy...he's like a fucking 10 year old
http://www.scottraab.com/lebrons-house-whore-of-akron/
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 4:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
fucking a ten year old?
How topical.
Nick Swisher and Johnny Giavatella deserve treats in the Kaufmann parking lot.
So does Posnanski abandon is Joe Paterno book? Write a completely different Joe Paterno book? Write the same book as if nothing happened?
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 7, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Who knows...
but I have a hard time seeing Paterno not retire after this season with the way this is already playing out. Retire now, dude.
Nick Swisher and Johnny Giavatella deserve treats in the Kaufmann parking lot.
He should be fired
Which won’t happen, but I agree, he should at least do the right thing now and leave. It’s already a black mark on his legacy as a human being.
Twitter: awolfson0
Says a lot about JoePa's character, or lack thereof
that he hasn’t stepped down by now.
He HAS to mention it if he wants to write
A definitive JoePa book, even if Paterno was not involved in a coverup. I don’t know if Paterno would deny Posnanski further access if JoePo insists on at least acknowledging it in the book, or whether there would even be such an insistence. Maybe a warts-and-all biography wasn’t the plan in the first place.
by thelaundry on Nov 7, 2011 4:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm not going to criticize a book that hasn't
Been written or published yet. But Poz decided to write about Paterno, not Bob Knight. I have enjoyed a lot of his writing, but I don’t expect hard journalism.
by thelaundry on Nov 7, 2011 4:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If he had started the project even a week ago,
it would have been generally understood that he was probably venturing into “softball” territory. This is now a hopelessly awkward situation.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree
thelaundry is right, Poz isn’t exactly a hard journalist. But he IS a journalist, and a respected one, and I’d expect him to take the high road in this situation. But sheesh, I’d not want to be him today.
Twitter: awolfson0
What does taking the high road involve?
I expect he eventually abandons the book.
Either abandoning the book, or if he writes it, a no-holds-barred treatment of this incident
What he wrote today affirmed my faith in him, see the post below.
Twitter: awolfson0
He realizes he can't ignore this
But if he walks away, I expect some would say he is a hagiographer, which is unfair. I have no issue with someone who wanted to write a sports book but not if it means delving into a sexual molestation case. That said, I hope he does write something about it given his proximity to the program and coach at the moment it broke.
I think a blog post would suffice
Though yes, some people would take his abandonment of the book as a cop out.
Twitter: awolfson0
I assume he'll write something about it, but not a book
I think Pos is pretty clear about wanting to write about uplifting stories. He’s not a true crime writer. He’s never been an investigative journalist. I think people would give him a pass if he said “this is not what I signed up for.”
There’s also the potential problem that if Paterno gets named as a witness, he can’t talk to Joe about the case because the transcripts could be subpoenaed.
paterno already was a witness to a grand jury about the case
and Posnanski wrote about it yesterday at si.com
But he didn't write about what Paterno told him about it
I’m saying that Poz might have a hard time turning the book in that direction because nobody would be able to talk to him about it until the case is over, which seems like it might be awhile.
He also knows that part of the book will be the only thing discussed
And he’ll be discussing it for the rest of his career.
Twitter: awolfson0
One more reason to abandon the project
He can even use people’s inability to speak to him about the case as a reason to abandon it.
What JoePa did is worse than anything Knight ever did?
Sandusky’s stuff is worse for sure, and I think the people who decided to cover it up are also certainly worse, but between JoePa’s actions (or failures to act) and Knight’s physically attacking people, I’m not sure which I’d say is worse.
there's still the question of what did paterno even know.
most seem to be jumping to the conclusion that he knew everything.
He had to know enough
You find a 58-year-old man in the shower with a 10-year-old. Even knowing that, that’s enough to obligated Paterno to notify the authorities once he knew it, not try to protect his friend by ignorning the situation.
Twitter: awolfson0
by awolfson on Nov 7, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
paterno wasn't the one who saw that
and we don’t know if the guy who did told paterno the whole story. lets let the dust settle a little before saying paterno is somewhat culpable here.
Again, though
From what I’ve read, he heard enough. I held that same opinion either this morning, but with everything that’s come to light, I just don’t see how he could have heard what heard and not thought it was worth following up on.
Twitter: awolfson0
And he did report it to authorities
One of the guys under indictment for obstruction and perjury is the head of Penn State University Police. He’s involved because Paterno reported it to the University Police.
JoePa isn't dumb
He knows that the University Police isn’t the appropriate place to report an allegation like this. All of this, for me, comes back to the fact that JoePa runs that campus, he was very close to Sandusky, and he isn’t dumb.
Twitter: awolfson0
If it's anything like KU, the University Police are the primary jurisdiction for these matters
If somebody was raped at KU, I would definitely have reported it to Campus Safety. It might not even occur to me that the State Troopers would also have jurisdiction.
It's child abuse, it goes beyond university jurisdiction
IANAL, but I’m 99% sure of that.
Twitter: awolfson0
At KU, campus safety has primary jurisdiction on all state crimes
which includes child abuse.
I’d expect it’s this way at almost all state schools, but I don’t know for sure.
Oh please
I don’t care what the university bylaws or what not say; college campus rent-a-cops are not the ones that should be leading a child molestation case. Use some common sense.
JoePa’s reputation is tarnished by this, and rightfully so.
to act like joepa doesnt run that campus is absurd...
even if joe pa did what he shouldve done with regards to reporting it…there’s no way that the guy shoudlve been allowed to use the facilities…lifting at PSU last week? After all the grand jury stuff?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
My understanding is that they can't act on what they learned in the grand jury
Because the proceedings are sworn to confidentiality.
he can do whatever he wants with his knowledge...
and like i said before…he runs that university…if he doesnt want sandusky there…he’s not there
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
This is nuts
He has a moral obligation to violate his oath in order to stop this guy from using the weight room for a few weeks? What purpose does that serve except chest beating and venting emotion?
Especially since he wasn't bringing any kids with him into the weight room.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
His reputation is certainly tarnished
And universities don’t have a lot of crime, but University POs are real cops. You saying you would bypass the Mission Hills PD because it’s a rich neighborhood with no crime if you had a serious crime to report?
You think KU university cops = KCPD?
Does KCPD ever bring in Washburn CSI for a rape case?
I don't know what this means
But if there’s some question as to which has more violent crime, I’d put my money on KU over Mission Hills.
No.. but if you see a crime at KU,
you can call the KUPD and if it’s serious enough, they will go further up the ladder. They’re located on campus and can show up faster.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
If I saw a serious crime
I would call the real cops, not campus rent a cops. I guess that is where we differ.
Real cops would be KCPD, MO Hwy Patrol, etc
They are much more prepared to handle serious crimes than a university police department, and I doubt you could find anyone in law enforcement that would say otherwise.
What about a low-crime suburb or small town
Would you automatically bypass them if you had a serious crime to report?
You're overgeneralizing, I think
The specifics are key to this case. We can think about what we’d do, but we don’t have the responsibilities that JoePa has taken on for himself.
Twitter: awolfson0
I think it's helpful to avoid the cartoon portrait of university cops
I guess the implication is that these guys would be so incompetent that they could neither conduct an investigation into sexual molestation not recognize their own inability and call in other agencies for help? It’s a ridiculous assertion completely unsupported by facts.
Comparing to situations we all experience is useful in drawing that out.
It's not that they're incompetent, more that they're potentially biased
I’m not the one making the rent-a-cop argument, and I’m not looking bash campus police.
Twitter: awolfson0
Right
I was responding to someone who was when I made my comparison.
I don’t understand the PSU PD’s motive for covering this up. It seems to me that the person with the motive for cover up was JoePa. When he instead went to the authorities, I don’t think he should have been on guard that the authorities would then decide to cover it up.
They could have had any number of motivations
People like JoePa and Sandusky control what happens on campus. Without bashing police(!), it must be noted that there’s potential conflict of interest there.
Twitter: awolfson0
I think you're exaggerating Sandusky's role
At that point, he’s a former asst coach with an office on campus. He’s certainly famous, but I think it’s unfair to say he controls what happens on campus.
And I think you're underestimating the Good Ole Boy network
Control was the wrong word. Influence, let’s go with.
Twitter: awolfson0
So you believe these sorts of crimes are covered up at schools all around the country?
I don’t. But if you do, that would explain more of why you feel the way you feel.
Not "these sorts"
Leave it at “crimes,” or “violations,” and no, I would not be shocked.
Twitter: awolfson0
But very serious major crimes
The kind that people would be outraged about?
I don't believe serious major crimes happen in these circumstances very often
And I couldn’t speculate on how different people would react in different situations. But I think, after following college football over the years, it’s clear that many of these administrators have no qualms about covering things up.
Twitter: awolfson0
I tend to think that there's no completely clean program.
Believing otherwise would be naive.
Of course, this is one of the two worst scandals ever in NCAA history (only the Baylor basketball scandal comes close) so I don’t think major crimes are being covered up frequently. NCAA violations? Yes.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
And I think you're underestimating the Good Ole Boy network
Control was the wrong word. Influence, let’s go with.
Twitter: awolfson0
I don't think there's any reason to think that a campus police force was more likely to engage in a coverup than any other local police force.
Bad cops happen, but they aren’t the norm.
When I worked dorm security at KU,
if we witnessed a crime, we were to call campus security, not the Lawrence PD.
Of course, they never said anything about child abuse because it was unthinkable that that issue would have come up.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
For me it's a morality thing
Child abuse is the lowest of the low. If you see that, how can you not do anything in your power to make sure the situation is ended? Contacting state police seems like a no-brainer in that mindset.
But as you say, this doesn’t come up much.
Twitter: awolfson0
Based on my experiences with campus police then,
I had a full expectation that they would completely follow anything up and not sweep it under the rug (though I didn’t really deal with anything more serious than fake IDs, passed out students, and marijuana). From there, it was out of my hands and officially none of my business.
It’s more complicated in this case because it would have been clear that Sandusky was still heavily involved with kids.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
You're right
I guess I’m not saying he shouldn’t have told the Campus Police. What I’m saying is he should have kept going up the ladder.
Twitter: awolfson0
again, you're assuming paterno knew all the details here
if he turned it over to police, and the police said they found nothing, what was paterno to do? if he didn’t know anything, why would he have not accepted the police findings as accurate?
I just think one would have to be extremely sheltered to not think something was fishy here
Not much more than what I’ve already posted that I can say to explain it.
Twitter: awolfson0
That's certainly a fair assessment.
As I said earlier, whatever comes out, there’s no way for it to make anyone look good (other than the high school coach who finally reported it).
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
if the police say nothing was found, i dont see what is expected of paterno here
was he supposed to wage a personal crusade for justice against sandusky? if he knew all the details, that is plausible. if he didn’t, thats a pretty ridiculous expectation.
when all the details come out, a verdict on paterno’s actions can be formed. right now, this is all nancy grace-esque hyperbole.
Interesting, a breaking headline just showed up on my Twitter
that the state police are now blaming him for not doing enough.
To be clear, I don’t think that Paterno is even close to complicit as Kerley, et al. If he were, the grand jury would have charged him.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
Noonan's a political figure.
You’ve got to appear tough on crime.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Campus police
Makes all the difference. Legally he may have been fine to stop there, but morally that is absurdly wrong.
Twitter: awolfson0
I don't know why this guy is singling out Paterno and not the grad assistant
I also don’t get the distinction that is being drawn between state and local police. Why are people supposed to know the difference?
The GA told Paterno
and was a former QB for Paterno at PSU.
You would have to suspend reality to think that the GA did not go into details with Paterno on what he witnessed.
Yep
He should have immediately intervened.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 7, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
It will be very important to learn what the PSU AD told Paterno
about the results of the investigation.
If he was told that the kid that appeared to be young turned out to be out age and that Sandusky had been barred from bringing anyone else on campus, Paterno might have though that he didn’t want to get involved in the man’s sexuality and that the grad assistant must have misjudged the kid’s age through the steam in the shower.
Correction
“If he was told that the kid that appeared to be young turned out to be of age”
Or instead of directly going up,
at least staying in touch with the Athletic Director to ensure it was being properly reported. Which maybe he did, for all we know. The truth will eventually come to light.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
If it wasn't a university, would you contact state police or just your local police?
Is this something about university police not being up to snuff or just thinking that child abuse is so serious that it ought to go to the highest law enforcement in the state? (I guess that’s the KBI in Kansas).
Part of this is the environment
I guess you can’t “expect” a cover-up, but when the alleged criminal in question is a highly-known community figure, I think it’s appropriate to involve higher authorities.
Twitter: awolfson0
The latter makes sense to me
Here in Canada, the University of Saskatchewan security pass anything felonious to the city police, who call in the feds (RCMP) if it’s really huge (multiple murder for example).
I’m sure the campus police are fine folks in most places, but it makes sense to call in better resourced people for serious crime doesn’t it?
Edgar knows best.
Well, jurisdiction splits a little differently here, but yes
However, the question here is not what campus PD should have done, it’s whether JoePa should have bypassed them to contact higher law enforcement directly.
I amend my argument
If it was unclear, I don’t think he should have bypassed them, but rather escalated the issue regardless of the response he received from campus.
Twitter: awolfson0
So if campus PD investigated and said "there's no crime here"
If they say the eyewitness was mistaken. Joe Pa is morally obligated to go find another law enforcement agency that shares jurisdiction to reinvestigate?
That seems a bit much. I need to reserve judgment until I know what Campus PD told him.
No, I think as others said, Campus PD isn't qualified to investigate something of this nature
Regardless of where jurisdiction lies. Maybe my problem is as much with the system as JoePa, but again, he’s not stupid, he knows Campus PD is not adept at handling child abuse cases, especially when the suspect is a well-known figure at the university.
Twitter: awolfson0
they sure as shit are good at busting up parties though...
assholes
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think this is a deeply flawed line of argument
You can’t say that a civilian should use their judgment to bypass any law enforcement agency that doesn’t deal with enough hard crime if they have a serious crime to report.
Should every murder or rape in a wealthy suburb be reported immediately to the state troopers?
I think in this case
JoePa has more than a civilian’s judgement of the situation. I guess I’m either arguing that 1) these are special, exceptional cirumstances, or b) the system is wrong. Or both.
Twitter: awolfson0
One could argue either way
Let’s just say that Knight is what he is, and that JoePa is not what we thought he was. They both have done reprehensible things. My point above was that what JoePa did(n’t do) is so much more harmful to kids than anything Knight ever did to a kid, who by the way were 18-21, not freaking 10!!
Twitter: awolfson0
By didn't do, you mean failure to follow up to ensure that the incident was fully investigated or what?
I hear a lot of people saying that Paterno should have known that he had to report this to police, but my understanding is that he did report it to Penn State University Police and they were part of the decision to sweep it under the rug.
All of the above
1) Report it to the state police, 2) follow up on it, 3) seek out and confront Sandusky, and 4) seek out and help the kids involved.
I see those all as his obligation, and the first one is his LEGAL obligation.
Twitter: awolfson0
I think that's a fair summary
It’ll be interesting to see what he viewed as his obligation as the story unfolds.
I wouldn't expect anyone to do 3 and 4
That’s a job for skilled professionals.
1 is an absolute necessity. And you keep doing 1 until they do something.
Edgar knows best.
You seem to be suggesting (or assuming) that campus police and “state police” are two different things. Do you know that?
Many state universities have a police force composed of actual state police officers. Are the campus police at Penn State actually just security guards or something?
And, either way, do you know what other law enforcement agency would have had jurisdiction? I’m just curious, here, I don’t know the answers myself…
Yes, I do know that
And I would imagine that state police has jurisdiction over any crimes in the state, by default (excluding DA deals and the like).
Twitter: awolfson0
State police should have plenary jurisdiction over any state crimes in the state
I’d imagine that in most big states, state police focus on unincorporated areas and local police handle state crimes in the rest of the state.
Who are these "state police" that you keep talking about?
Seriously. Do you actually know that there’s some difference between the campus police and these “state police” that you’re talking about? In Kansas City, we have KCPD. Those guys are the only “state police” around here, unless you want to talk to a state trooper… but you’re not generally gonna call in a state trooper to investigate a crime in Kansas City, are you? Do they have state troopers in Pennsylvania? Or, do they have some other law enforcement agency that made more sense than calling the campus police force?
My problem is that you keep talking about the “state police” as if that’s something different from the campus police. It probably isn’t. They probably are one and the same. Most places, if you report a crime to the campus police, you have already reported it to the “state police.”
I honestly don't understand what you're on about
Of course there is a state law enforcement agency and a campus law enforcement agency. Whether or not the agents are trained in the same fashion, the agencies, while they work together, are distinct. How could a state (OK, commonwealth) not have a state police department?
Twitter: awolfson0
From the KU PD website:
Police Officers in the Public Safety Office are fully commissioned and state certified as established under Kansas Statutes Annotated, 76-726. To become a certified as a Police Officer, a Police Officer-trainee must undergo 560 hours of basic training at the Kansas Law Enforcement Training Center. Following graduation, they must complete 240 hours of in-house training before moving on to patrol. In patrol, the Police Officer-trainee must satisfactorily complete 400 hours of ride-a-long training with a Field Training Officer. Only then will the new Officer become available for general police assignments.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
KU's cops are full cops
“Police Officers in the Public Safety Office are fully commissioned and state certified as established under Kansas Statutes Annotated, 76-726. To become a certified as a Police Officer, a Police Officer-trainee must undergo 560 hours of basic training at the Kansas Law Enforcement Training Center. Following graduation, they must complete 240 hours of in-house training before moving on to patrol. In patrol, the Police Officer-trainee must satisfactorily complete 400 hours of ride-a-long training with a Field Training Officer. Only then will the new Officer become available for general police assignments.”
What confuses me somewhat is they said that Sandusky
was then barred from Penn St. facilities after that, yet the incidents continued after that particular one. Was that simply the last one alleged to have occurred on PSU property? If he was continuing to use PSU property for this, that makes things a lot worse.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
Since, as Beau said, it's not clear precisely what Paterno knew..
for now, I’m going to maintain restraint. However, there’s no way around the fact that there’s no real way to make it look good for him.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
He was barred from bringing kids on to PSU facilties
Many of the later facilities take place at a high school that eventually banned him and turned the matter over to the police, which led to this investigation.
Right
Penn State brass essentially told him, “whatever you’re doing, just take it off campus.”
He was seen working out in the PSU weight room as recently as last week.
Twitter: awolfson0
by awolfson on Nov 7, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The argument basically comes down to whether Paterno
heard the words “a*** s***” (don’t want to make this site become NSFW). I have a hard time believing that Paterno would have heard those and not followed up. Yet based on the grand jury report, others in the department did. Perhaps the assistant was not as specific with Paterno. We just don’t know.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
What else would have been going on in that shower?
Even if it didn’t reach what is alleged, what is happening in that shower is clearly inappopriate.
Twitter: awolfson0
I think Paterno said he thought it was referred to as
“horsing around”. Which still doesn’t sound good.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
No, it doesn't.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
It does, just realized that
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Enabling a child rapist.
Yes, that’s worse than anything that Knight has ever done, or has been alleged to have done.
Nick Swisher and Johnny Giavatella deserve treats in the Kaufmann parking lot.
Not really.
The news that Sandusky is still using Penn State facilities as of a week ago tells me enough. Paterno knew PLENTY by that point.
Nick Swisher and Johnny Giavatella deserve treats in the Kaufmann parking lot.
Except the grand jury was not clear what Paterno knew.
Since that’s where all our facts are coming from, it’s difficult for us to go beyond the stipulated facts.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
And the GA was recruited by Paterno to PSU
and was a QB under Paterno for years. This is not just some random dude that worked on the football team.
The GA
Is a disgusting human being for not STOPPING the abuse when it was happening.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 7, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Apparently his first action was to call his father
Whose advice was to leave the building. That’s borderline criminal itself.
Twitter: awolfson0
His first action
Should have been to enter the shower, confront the adult and remove the child from the situation.
Had he done that, it could never have been covered up.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 7, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Incidently, I can imagine the graduate assistant
having a problem with dealing with a catastrophe of the highest magnitude in this kind of instance.
I concur that should he have done differently is up for much debate, but he probably wasn’t in any position of power and was certainly working to alert those with power.
Nick Swisher and Johnny Giavatella deserve treats in the Kaufmann parking lot.
He had the power to attempt to make Sandusky to stop molesting the child
With force, if need be.
Twitter: awolfson0
Exactly
You don’t have to be in a position of power to stop child rape in the act.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Nov 7, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
It is sickening that this is not what he did
Almost unbelievable.
Why did Paterno know any more by a week ago?
Plus, unless I’m mistaken, grand jury proceedings are sworn to secrecy and participants including JoePa would be barred from disclosing information learned in them.
What's not sworn to secrecy is, again,
Old man with child in shower! How is that not worthy of investigation by that man’s former boss and the man in charge of the program?
Twitter: awolfson0
I hate hearing this kind of analogy, so I'm going to temper myself a bit...
but imagine someone says that a 58 year old man was participating in horseplay with your 10 year old son in the shower at the school at which you work. Do you A, refer to the matter to your boss so that they can look after it, or B, find out and ask pointed questions to those potentially involved and then notify law enforcement?
Perhaps there’s no legal quandary (I don’t know the law) but there is absolutely a moral question. No doubt about it. Oh, and then it continued for another 9 years. That’s enabling.
Nick Swisher and Johnny Giavatella deserve treats in the Kaufmann parking lot.
I'd report it to law enforcment
That’s what Paterno did.
The son part of the analogy is inapt
I’m ignoring it.
Truthfully, I don’t know how I’d respond, but, at a certain point, you have to trust the people who are trained to investigate that. There’s no moral wrong in being duped by people you thought were skilled and trustworthy.
I don't know for sure about PSU, but at KU they are
http://www2.ku.edu/~kucops/policeservices/
This distinction between local and state police seems badly flawed, except in retrospect
I guess that's the point isn't it?
Would you expect a campus PD to be trained and skilled in major sexual crime?
I wouldn’t, personally.
Edgar knows best.
In my own locality
I’d expect the Sakatoon city police to be trained it. And i’d expect a dedicated officer from the sexual crimes unit to investigate.
I wouldn’t expect U of S campus security to be useful, even if they were (and most are) sworn constables just like the municiapal and federal police.
Edgar knows best.
I don't have any idea how much crime is in Saskatoon
But I figure that officers that are trained at the state law enforcement academy are probably better suited than me for figuring out when the state troopers need to be called in. So I would call local police and if they thought that they couldn’t handle it, I’d trust them to make the decision to call in additional authorities.
You're not dumb, and neither is JoePa
Would it really not cross your mind that campus police are not the proper role for investigating allegations of child abuse by a university figure?
Twitter: awolfson0
You're not helping yourself by calling those who disagree "dumb
I don’t think I’m smarter than the cops at figuring out who is best to investigate. If I have a crime to report, I call 911, I don’t get out the phone book and try to choose among the agencies that have jurisdiction. I don’t even now how to go about reporting a crime to the highway patrol.
We live in a society full of specialization, and, for the most part, I trust the specialists. If I have a crime, I take it to the police and trust them to sort it out. If I have a pain, I go to the doctor. If my car makes a noise, I take it to a mechanic.
I don’t presume I know more than everyone else about everything. He went to the cops. Their job is to figure this out. I still don’t understand why they decided to cover it up. I don’t think Paterno should be expected to act as though he’s surrounded by criminals whom he has to outwit by going over their heads.
I wish I could remember whether it does.
I don’t think it did, but I don’t remember for sure. I know that when I needed to report something that was low in urgency, I was to call a non-911 number.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
That explains a lot
Campus Police is the primary law enforcement agency. They are 911. They’re just like the municipal police department in any city or the county sheriff in any unincorporated area.
In this case though, I’d imagine he called the line for non-emergencies: 311 or something like that.
See, the idea that this could be a "non-emergency" is part of my whole reaction
I don’t comprehend how this isn’t the most serious of serious crimes, that should be dealt with by the highest of criminal authorities.
Twitter: awolfson0
Also, I appreciate the insight into how campus PD works
I realize my argument is shifting a bit, I’m as much trying to explain my own feelings toward it as anything.
Twitter: awolfson0
I agree the emergency number should have been called
immediately when the boy was in the shower.
By the next morning, it’s urgent, but not a matter of minutes/seconds. It was too late to do the best thing by that point, though, I’d agree.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
There was no crime in progress
If you call 911, and they say “what’s your emergency” and you say “my car was stolen last night” they often tell you to call back on the non-emergency number. In DC and many cities, that’s 311.
Since there was no crime in progress the next day when the grad asst went to Joe Paterno, I assume it was reported not to 911 dispatch but to wherever 311 goes to in the campus PD office.
You should read page 12 of the grand jury report.
You wouldn’t have to assume where it was reported.
Nick Swisher and Johnny Giavatella deserve treats in the Kaufmann parking lot.
That's a interesting take...
There’s no moral wrong in being duped by people you thought were skilled and trustworthy.
That’s exactly why I would reason the graduate assistant was only partially responsible for this to continue going on. JoePa had a LOT more.
Nick Swisher and Johnny Giavatella deserve treats in the Kaufmann parking lot.
It's an uncomfortable analogy
But it’s precisely apt. The kid doesn’t even need to be your son.
Twitter: awolfson0
No, not really
Given information that has surfaced in the last 48 hours.
It's not that simple
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
JoePo speaks
He will write about it someday:
There will be a lot written about Penn State and Paterno and this stomach-churning story over the next while. I’ll read, but I won’t write. Not yet. In time, I will. My old friend Buck O’Neil always used to say that what you do in the dark will come to light. As a writer, it’s dark outside.
by Royals-Gooner on Nov 7, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Posnanski's article originally said that Paterno had been "savaged".
He removed this statement after somebody on Twitter rightly pointed out that the word should be reserved for the real victims.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
My expectation is that Pos eventually abandons the book
He wanted to write a positive uplifting book and that’s just not going to be possible now. I’m sure he’s just gobsmacked right now, so his first blog post basically said he’d reserve judgment, but I just don’t see any way he can continue on this project.
I also think that Penn State’s President is on the way out after the unconditional backing he gave the AD, and once the President and AD are replaced, Joe Pa is not going to want to stick around any more, even if he’s lasted that long.
I agree with all this
The end (at Penn State) is nigh for everyone involved in this.
Twitter: awolfson0
oh..its for real
i read an excerpt of it somewhere…what a joke
i will definitely steal it from somewhere online to read it though
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Eiland is a proponent of heal-landing
The days of Royals pitchers landing on the ball of their feet left with McClure. Good times…
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
We’ll just get Sanchez long-tossing and the walks will be but a memory.
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 7, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Good point
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
i have changed my mind on this trade...
teachmetodugi11 is verdugo’s twitter handle
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 4:22 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
BREAKING NEWS:
Michael Jackson is still dead.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
Edgar knows best.
WHO REPORTED IT FIRST?
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 7, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
It won't believe it
until Will puts up a story.
by Black and Gold on Nov 7, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
I can't believe...
The talent difference between DeJesus and Melky is the same as that between Marks/Mazzaro and Sanchez.
Granted, it’s multiple years of control for M&M and only one year for Sanchez, but we’ll be lucky to get more than 100 innings out of M&M combined.
Granted, it’s multiple years of control for M&M and only one year for Sanchez, but we’ll be lucky to get more than 100 innings out of M&M combined.
I think the best luck for the Royals would be getting fewer than 100 innings out of them.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Hopefully Marks isn't that bad
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
Bit late to the party I guess.
I like the trade. It’s not a steal by any means, Sanchez could turn out to be crap, but I’d take the odds of Sanchez being a decent pitcher next year over the chances of Melky maintaining his level of play form ’11 into next season. Given that we have Cain (supposedly) ready to fill in, I think this is a solid risk to take.
Killing time until time kills me
But what about FanFest?
THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Nov 7, 2011 4:42 PM EST reply actions
Sanchez was Non-Tender Candidtate?
MLB Trader Rumors is reporting that Sanchez was a non-tender candidate. Hard to believe. Ciants had been said they were going to give him a shot at the 5th starter in competition with Barry Zito.
If he was a potential non-tender, should Moore have waited?
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/11/trade-and-free-agent-market-for-starting-pitchers.html
by Kansas City Oracle on Nov 7, 2011 4:45 PM EST reply actions
i dont believe that he wouldve made it that far...
someone wouldve given something up for him…and i think he’d also make more than $5 million on the open market
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds like good points
He likely would not have been a non-tender, because the Gians would have got something and, if not, he would have cost more as a free agent (although perhaps we could have tited him up for three years.
by Kansas City Oracle on Nov 7, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
(cough)(cough)BULLSHIT!!(cough)
From Jim Bowden
Cain is faster and more athletic than Cabrera, but Cabrera gets better jumps and takes better angles on fly balls,
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2006: Royals win% = .420, Chiefs win% = .354
Can this Possibly be True?
I assumed Cain would be a significant upgrade.
by Kansas City Oracle on Nov 7, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
Everybody's missing the point.
By getting rid of Melky, GMDM now has a clear path to 2/3 of his dream outfield. Next step: include Cain in the Jurrjens deal, and then acquire Colorodo Springs Sky Sox CF Willy Taveras for cash!
It's all ball bearings these days!
by CentralChamps20?? on Nov 7, 2011 4:48 PM EST reply actions
Did Rany really write 100,000 listing potential Royals SP targets and not even identify Jonathan Sanchez?
I looked through them again and couldn’t find anything. Did Rany really miss Sanchez? So much for a comprehensive list. Oh well, he’s busy.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
The whole five part, definitive guide to acquiring starting pitching thing was a little underwhelming – mostly because he tried to bill it as a definitive guide to acquiring starting pitching. If instead it have been a series of articles profiling five random SP targets where he’d post five little blurbs every few days it would have been more meaningful. Lots of words, not a lot said.
On Rany’s podcast, he doesn’t talk about the Royals much. And he writes about non-Royals teams on Grantland, and he recently did that draft study for BP. Rany’s still got it….but not when it comes to the Royals.
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Nov 7, 2011 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
I love Rany, but...
Lots of words, not a lot said.
This is so true. Dude overwrites everything. I only go to him for reactions on major news these days.
Twitter: awolfson0
He's level-headed and extremely knowleadgable
He’s probably the best Royals blogger, and I think he says quite a bit.
by Yodazilla on Nov 7, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He went through a really weird
180 about a year ago. Was strange, and I kind of drifted off him then.
Edgar knows best.
Jon Morosi
likes this deal…for the Giants. Of course he does.
It's all ball bearings these days!
by CentralChamps20?? on Nov 7, 2011 4:51 PM EST reply actions
Just think, if the Giants would have been as smart as DM,
they could have gotten Melky last fall and would have had Sanchez to trade for other needs. Might have made it to the playoffs as well.
and would probably still have wheeler b/c beltran wouldnt have been necessary
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
GMs possibly worse than Dayton Moore
Dave Littlefield
Jim Bowden
Omar Minaya
Brian Sabean
Twitter: awolfson0
I think it's a non-issue since no one will keep Verdugo on a ML roster all season
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 7, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
If the Royals could keep Nate Adcock on the 25-man all year
I’m guessing there will be at least one team who can sacrifice a bullpen spot for a 24-year-old with a 11.1 K/9 rate in the minors.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 7, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
I am lazy. Anyone want to compile the info on him at minor league splits to see if he might profile as a LOOGY?
DM said “one or two inning” guy and that he’d report to AAA in relief.
by WURoyal on Nov 7, 2011 6:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=489400
There is the lazy version. Liable to be different in relief due to pitch selection and pitch speed, but a better SO/BB ratio vs lefties as a starter.
by WURoyal on Nov 7, 2011 6:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's a good point
I guess I felt that if he was a “throw-in” for this trade, he wasn’t that good — not good enough that anyone would be willing to claim him, but I suppose hiding a reliever (or swingman, if he is one) is doable.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 7, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
gia's a loooooooooooooong ways from batting anywhere above 8th in the lineup
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
He and Cain are going to have a real 7-8 battle
That’s going to be a Spring Training Storyline to Watch!
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 7, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
So, what do you guys think about this lineup?
1 Cain
2 Gordon
3 Butler
4 Hosmer
5 Frenchy
6 Moose
7 Gio
8 Perez
9 Escobar
Cain’s certainly fast enough to lead off. The real interesting thing is that it would mean facing Gordon, Butler, and Hosmer in a row, which would be hell for pitchers.
agreed.
and since this does sound formidable
Gordon, Butler, and Hosmerwhy not make every starter have to face all of them in the first inning by batting them 1-2-3?
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 7, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
he just wont get on base enough to be a viable option more than likely
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
if i thought he could do that at the major league level...probably...
but gordon is pretty ideal as a leadoff hitter
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Personally, I'd still rather have Gordon first
Because he’ll get on base at a better clip than that, isn’t bad on the basepaths, and won’t be a rookie.
by moregritplease on Nov 7, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
Cain's got 169 Pro PA's
Not really a rookie…besides, Hosmer had the number 4 spot most of the year (pretty important spot) and he was a rookie. That’s a weak argument.
I think Gordon’s fine leading off, but if he were closer to the middle of the order, I think the Royals would have a bit more production overall. The guy was hitting after Alcides freaking Escobar, for crying out loud.
hitting after someone really doesn't matter
If you move Gordon out of the #1 spot, you’re giving him less PAs for the season.
Oh, wait, what spot do you want to move him to?
Assume 17 fewer trips to the plate for every spot you move him down in the order. So, moving leadoff to 2 will cost him 17 PAs. Moving leadoff to 3 costs 34… putting him cleanup costs 51, etc…
So who hits in Melky's old spot at #2?
Is that where you put Cain?
by moregritplease on Nov 7, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
these are the sorts of problems you have when you only have three guys likely to be above average hitters
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 7, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
best hitters are supposed to be at 1, 2, 4, right?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, in theory
I bet Jeff Francoeur would actually hit pretty well in the 3 hole, if Hosmer was making sure he saw plenty of fastballs.
by moregritplease on Nov 7, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
the problem is billy and his DPs batting 2 hole...
although, that is slightly less of a problem b/c gordon will get more XBH than the average leadoff guy
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
It is a problem
Especially since Gordon also gets his fair share of walks. And Billy/Frenchy will face lots of righty specialists in late innings, which is not good.
by moregritplease on Nov 7, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
well, that's just a general rule
for if you don’t have some kind of good simulation.
yeah, you want them in the top 4, and #2 usually needs to be better than #3, but it depends on tons of variables. I spend way too much time thinking about this stuff. On second thought, I hate this trade because now I can’t figure out any batting order where there isn’t an “ugh” player.
Not that it’s a huge deal. They might be able to figure out something not-as-bad by moving guys around vs. RH and LH starters, like with Frenchy and Moose or something like that.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 7, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you about the lineup
Melky was lots of things, not all of them good, but he was sure nice to have at the top of the order.
Still, the big plus for us on this trade is pitching and defense. And Cain did hit pretty well for the Brewers for a couple of months.
by moregritplease on Nov 7, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
I'd add Moose to that category
I’m assuming the first three were Gordon, Butler and Hosmer
by moregritplease on Nov 7, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
Well...no.
Butler, Hosmer, and Gordon you can count on to be significantly above average (OPS+ of at least 120).
I fully expect Francoeur to put up an OPS+ of 110-115…Moose should be north of 100 as well.
That’s 5 above average hitters, without considering Cain/Gio.
Based on what?
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Nov 7, 2011 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
When I asked my magic 8-ball if Francoeur would be an above average hitter this year, it said “It is decidedly so.” When I asked about Moustakas, it said “most likely.” When I asked about Cain, it said “ask again later.” So I’m pretty optimistic.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
I might go...
1. Butler
2. Gordon
3. Frechy
4. Hosmer
5. Perez
6. Moose
7. Gio
8. Cain
9. Escobar
Go Royals!
Well
Butler’s Butler. Gordon will regress, but not to the tune of 30 or so OPS+. Francoeur was very good this year despite what people want to think—replicating that with some regression seems reasonably likely. Moose got a lot better as the season ended.
Too early to tell for Gio/Cain.
Francoeur was very good this year despite what people want to think—replicating that with some regression seems reasonably likely.
Why is it reasonably likely? Here are his wOBA by year:
2006 .308
2007 .337
2008 .286
2009 .313
2010 .295
2011 .346
Which one of these is not like the others? Why is something like 2011 reasonably likely to happen again? When a player has a big spike which is very much unlike his recent seasons of performance, you shouldn’t expect that he has achieved a “new normal.” Before 2011, he hasn’t been an above average hitter since his rookie year (2005). But we should expect him to be 10-15% above average in 2012? I’m sorry but there’s really no reason to expect that. It could happen but I think that’s about as likely as him being 10-15% below average.
Moose got a lot better as the season ended
I wish we could rely on performance in the last couple months of a season as a meaningful predictor of the next season’s performance.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 8, 2011 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
Hate to break it to you
But sometimes statistics aren’t good predictors of future success.
You think there was a possibility Frenchy would have produced this much this year? I guarantee you didn’t. No one predicted he would be anywhere close to this good. No one predicted Melky would produce 4 WAR. On a larger scale, no one predicted St. Louis’s WS win (perhaps bad comp, but still somewhat relevant).
Sure, you can take Moose’s performance with a grain of salt, and I do to. But it was undeniable improvement. His final numbers are surprising considering how bad he was.
I know I’m going to get roasted for saying statistics aren’t the absolute measuring tool. But I do say that. waits for the rocks to be thrown at my face
But sometimes statistics aren’t good predictors of future success.
That’s certainly true. Sometimes stats point in one direction and then performance ends up going in a completely different direction. Stats don’t tell the whole story. But it is good, solid, objective data. And predictions based on a player’s performance record (especially if you have several years of MLB data) are much better (and more accurate) than ones based on gut feelings or performance in a small sample (like a good second half or couple of months).
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 8, 2011 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
fast enough to lead off, sounds like enough.
cain didn’t lead off in AAA, why in the majors? with his likely high K rate and average OBP, why would he lead off?
Why mess with sucess?
Leave Gordon where he was.
That said, that 2-3-4-5-6 looks oddly good for a Royals team. I could get used to that.
Edgar knows best.
I could go with this lineup.
Gordon had a great year leading off, but going forward, he needs to be in more of a rbi spot in the lineup.
I'm thinking right now
Gordon LF L
Cain CF R
Butler DH R
Hosmer 1B L
Francoeur RF R
Moustakas 3B L
Pérez C R
Giovatella 2B R
Escobar SS R
That is sure one right-handed lineup. In the circa 30-40 games that Brayan substitutes for Pérez and you can get a lefty in there, you put Giovatelli in the 7-spot and LH switch-hitter Peña in the eight-hole.
Seems to me the Royals should be looking for another lefty bat on the bench, if one is available cheap. Or maybe that’s going to be Peña’s job.
You know one thing: Dayton has finally given us the lineup we wanted. The young guys are out there. We are the youngest team in MLB. While I still doubt his trading/signing ability, this trade was better than OK, especially if Sánchez can come back and we can resign him.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
Yet it has 3 lefties in the top 6
I think it’s balanced enough to the extent that matters. So, nice job! I just wouldn’t put Cain #2 to start. I like Pérez there.
Twitter: awolfson0
So far, most of this story's comments are about Joe Paterno
by OnixConcepcion on Nov 7, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
Worst thread hijack ever
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Nov 7, 2011 9:07 PM EST up reply actions
yet the statement is entirely true, and I was forced to skip roughly 800 comments about shit I didn't care about
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 7, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
worth it though?
some good baseball conversation was had today
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
good convo yes
I was employing hyperbole and saying there were 800 Joe Paterno comments
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 7, 2011 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
rewind yourself
i need to know the exact number
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 8, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
789
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Nov 9, 2011 1:35 AM EST up reply actions
Worse than the thread hijack on giving credit for the fanshot?
I honestly forgot we were on the trade thread. The perils of having multiple tabs open. Anyway, for what it’s worth, I feel bad for participating in the threadjack.
So do I.. it's just one of those threads that took on a life of its own.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
Stop worrying about getting the scoop...
some guy named “Unknown” posted this on Rany’s blog on OCTOBER 7TH:
“I think Edwin Jackson makes a ton of sense, and if the Royals could trade Melky to the Giants for Jonathan Sanchez, it could set up to be a good rotation.”
Say, Mr. Unknown, got any stock picks?
That information is somewhat classified.
I'm a little late on this (I was in school, didn't have time to write anything), but...
I liked the move. Melky had a really fluky season, and I’m Glad DM is taking advantage of that (Even though he probably doesn’t know he’s taking advantage of it).
I like Sanchez. It looks like he really only needs a couple of mechanical tweaks in order for him to keep his walks down.
The “throw-in” Prospect we got, Ryan Verdugo, seems to be a bit better than you guys are making him out to be. He has been in the minors for a while. His ceiling is probably a #3 or #4 starter in the majors, and considering that we got him for Melky Cabrera on top of Jonathan Sanchez makes this look like a pretty good deal.
All in all, I liked this move.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
it's tough not to like this move
Less Melky, no more Cain in Omaha, and we finally have a legit pitcher on the staff. Sure, Sanchez can have games where he can’t find the strike zone, but he can also dominate any lineup in the league. I think he’s easily our best pitcher now.
by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Nov 7, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
I dare you to say that to Bruce Chen's face
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 7, 2011 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Late to the party missed this deal til just now.
Seems ok to me. KC upgraded defense and pitching with a chance of getting neutral offense
Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com
Ya I don't hate it either
We traded a position of strength for a position that we needed, that’s what you’re supposed to do. Hopefully we get the 2010 Sanchez and not the 2011 one.
by Lil'Sparky on Nov 7, 2011 5:47 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Now go get Edwin Jackson and re-sign Chen
Then you’ll have:
Hochever
Paulino
Chen
Sanchez
E. Jackson
Duffy
Montgomery when he’s ready
Everyone knows you need 6 to 7 reliable starters since someone is bound to get injured. Every one of these guys can go out and give you a chance to win, unlike running out there with O’Sullivan, Davies, or Mazarro starting. Just with this trade and signing Jackson we’ve significantly improved our starting rotation over last year, and clearly our lineup is better than starting day last year (umm Chris Getz anyone?). With the offense our lineup could put up, I would right us down for 82-84 wins without batting an eye, barring any major injuries or setbacks.
I would right us down for 82-84 wins without batting an eye, barring any major injuries or setbacks.
Which then begs the question: Why would you sign Edwin Jackson to a 4/60 deal so you can win 82-84 games? Why not wait a year and spend the money on a better FA SP, starting in a year where the Royals are closer to contention?
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 7, 2011 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
I think the Royals might have a surprising season in 2012.
Now, I don’t think they’ll end up getting E-Jax, but I think it would make sense for the Royals to get a couple of non-tender candidates and starters that are undervalued by their teams.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
Also, I could see them offering Chen arb, and him declining in favor of a 2 or 3 year deal.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
This trade smells like "we're going to try to win this year as hard as we can, but we're really still shooting for 2013 to be serious contenders."
Which is fine by me. As long as the young players keep developing. I’ve waited forever to see a competitive baseball team, I don’t see how 1 more year will hurt.
by ProbablyYoungerThanAllOfYou on Nov 7, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed, if we're gonna spend $15MM/year to get to 83 wins in 2011, how are we gonna get to 90 with no money left?
For instance, if we’d hypothetically somehow gotten Matt Cain, instead of Sanchez, and we looked like a 82-84 win team, then another $15MM/year on EJax and maybe $10MM/year on Kelly Johnson might make sense in order to get to 88-90 wins. But for now, we have Sanchez, and the extra one or two wins we get from Sanchez + Cain instead of Melky, shouldn’t change anything.
In other words, good trades and FA signings will get us a few extra wins, but we (aka The Process) are still relying on the development of our young players, which has yet to happen.
I think the better question to ask then is
“Can Edwin Jackson at 4/60 be part of a 90 win team in 2013-2016?” Or are there a couple of better fits in the 2012 free agent class?
Do you guys think the Royals are going to go the route of piling up 7 or 8 Middle-of-the-rotation starters and seeing who does the best?
We already have five (Hochevar, Paulino, Sanchez, Duffy, Montgomery [maybe]), so it wouldn’t surprise me if we trade for a couple more under-the-radar pitchers who are either non-tender candidates or are extremely undervalued by their respective teams.
I think I’m going to write an article on all of the pitchers like this tonight, but I’ll get started by naming a couple.
1: Carlos Zambrano
A good example of a player who is extremely undervalued by his team. Really good pitcher. The only way his player option activates is if he gets in the top 4 in CY voting next season, so even if he does get the player option, it is still a win for the Royals considering that they got a cheap, awesome pitcher for 2012. I mean cheap because the Cubs are willing to eat most of his salary, and he wouldn’t cost much considering that, well, he is extremely undervalued by his team. I think, now that DM is supposedly talking to the Cubs about this, that he will end up getting him for fairly cheap.
2: Mike Pelfrey
Mike Pelfrey is a really cheap pitcher, and he is from here. He has been a 15-game winner. However, he does walk a lot of guys, and he doesn’t strike out that many.
I’ll have more later.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
if the option does vest...he wont be cheap...he'll be $20 million
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
I suppose you're right.
If it does, though (Once again, he’ll have to finish in the top 4 in Cy Young voting), we would have a great pitcher on our hands, who could very well be worth that $20 Million.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
Also, the Cubs are supposedly willing to eat some of his salary for 2012.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
Do you really think that Zambrano would stay happy in KC?
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
who knows...alot of guys would shape up in order to get another big money deal...
but the guy was ready to walk away from like $23 million so maybe he figures the 70 million he’s already made will be enough to live off of in venezuela for life
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
Pelfrey would be the only one I'd want to seriously look at.
Zambrano can be damn good at times, and can be god awful at other times. Plus he’s a cancer in the clubhouse. Not to mention the fact that he’s insanely expensive. No thanks.
Pelfrey, on the other hand, could be a solid pick up. He has great stuff, and could really use a change of scenery. People in NY have been on his case since the minute he was called up. He does walk a lot, but I think he could be a decent 4 or 5 starter on a contending team.
by ProbablyYoungerThanAllOfYou on Nov 7, 2011 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
Option #3: Scott Baker.
Scott Baker is a heck of a pitcher. He has had a 3.5 K/BB or above in the last 4 seasons of his career, and he isn’t exactly old (He will be 30 next season). He also has a $9.5 Million team option, which we could decline if he doesn’t perform up to par, or if we need payroll space to sign a #1 starter like Grienke or Hamels.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
Now, he might cost a little more in a trade than Pelfrey, (Like probably a couple of B prospects)
But he is still a great pitcher who is really undervalued.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
no offense..
but you could always just copy and paste part of Rany’s article, since he basically did the exact same thing?
by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Nov 7, 2011 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
None taken.
Rany’s article didn’t mention everyone.
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
I don't want Zambrano,
Too much drama and negativity with the big Z.
I like the idea of getting 8 starting pitchers, and then keeping the best 4 or 5 for next year. In practice I don’t think we could do more than 7, unless we get a guy who’d pitch at AAA, and both Monty and Duffy would have to start at AAA next year too. The other issue is that we’d have to get guys on one-year deals and then hope they re-signed with us, unless we’d be willing to risk signing them to mid-season extension on a half-season sample size.
The more I think about this trade, the more I like it.
We have a lot of redundancy at centerfield in the majors and high minors, even after this trade, with Maier, Dyson, and Cain. Meanwhile, Sanchez certainly should improve our rotation. A coworker who watches a lot of NL games (he’s a … St. Louisian? St. Louisan? St. Louisite? and a Cardinals fan) said he thinks it is a great trade for the Royals. Said Sanchez has great “stuff.” We weren’t going to get an established “ace” or realistically even a great second starter, not without giving up a lot more than we did.
It will be really hard for the Royals to definitively “lose” this trade. And if Sanchez pitches well and maybe even improves his control issues, we win, hands down.
I started off with a really lame joke
centered around the word ‘redundancy’ and then got rid of it cause it was so bad.
We at Royals Corner..
would like to be credited with this newstory breaking, since we apparently have Extra Sensory Perception there, and had this prediction pegged on Sept. 23rd (nearly 6 weeks before the ensuing trade)..
GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE MAN!
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=281&f=2054&t=7978283
by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Nov 7, 2011 6:44 PM EST reply actions
Shouldn't have included the term "straight up".
Nice prediction.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
Yup, RoyalsCorner made an accurate prediction.
Pretty much proves the “give monkeys a typewriter and enough time and they will eventually write reproduce Shakespeare” theory true.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on Nov 7, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
How much do you expect Jamie Moyer would go for w/ a 1 year contract?
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
whatever seatlle or sd will pay him
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 6:46 PM EST up reply actions
You know, if you paid me $1M or more to work in San Diego for 6 months
I'd struggle through it
pay for my food/lodging/liquor/cigarette expenses and im there...
and i can throw harder than moyer as well
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
We try very hard to
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
by cmkeller on Nov 7, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Two Sanchez Negatives
1. The Royals were the worst team in the AL in issuing walks. Therefore, a TOP priority should have been to acquire a starting pitcher with a low WHIP. Sanchez is the exact opposite of what we needed. How about a Kyle Loshe type instead?
2. Sanchez was injured to end the season, with bicep tendinitis. This, from what I’ve heard, if a tough injury to heal. So there’s no guarantee that Sanchez will be able to pitch anywhere close to what he did in 2010. Let’s hope Dayton did his homework with respect to the injury healing.
I like the trade for opening up a position for Cain and getting another arm to boot. However, I believe we could have done much better with respect to a low WHIP arm.
David
you know what kyle lohse costs? salary and prospects? that he has a full no trade clause?
that he has a HIGHER career WHIP? ERA? FIP? xFIP? try again
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
except your low WHIP guy has a higher career whip than sanchez and his awful WHIP
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
why would you completely disregard the other 10?
and why would you assume that he’d be the same without duncan?
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions
That depends.
Did he also record over 200 strikeouts?
Also is it gonna cost me any more than Melky Cabrera to get this pitcher?
by kcemigre on Nov 7, 2011 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Move from the NL - quick and dirty stats
Just to see what happened, I removed all of Sanchez’s AB vs #9 spot (I realize, not all of those are pitchers, and it doesn’t add in a DH, but anyway) his K% drops by about 1.5%, his BB% goes up by 0.5% (K/BB 1.8) , and his OPS against is .735. League average was .727.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 7, 2011 8:13 PM EST reply actions
i dont know how difficult this will be to go back and look up...but how much higher is his BB% vs the 8 spot than you'd expect?
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure exactly what number you're asking for, but I figure you mean how often does he walk/pitch around the #8 guy to get to the pitcher?
He K’s the 3 through 7 at about the same rate, shy of 2 K/BB, but there’s a big drop at #8. Interesting, but I’m not sure if it means anything.
Batting 1st - 1.46 K/BB
Batting 2nd – 1.5
Batting 3rd - 1.98
Batting 4th - 1.81
Batting 5th - 1.78
Batting 6th - 2.3
Batting 7th - 1.89
Batting 8th - 1.5
Batting 9th - 5.09
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 8, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
i think it means that there are probably quite a few intentional/semi-intentional walks to the 8 hitter...
which probably isnt insignificant in his total…making up for some of the difference in not seeing the pitcher 2-3 times/game
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 8, 2011 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
so what does anyone actually expect from sanchez next season?
and do we just call him sanchez? do we go johnny? johnny cakes?
I think they call him Dirty in SF.
I’m not a fan of that one.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!
by KeepItCopacetic on Nov 7, 2011 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
put me on the record for 2 WAR if he makes 30+ starts
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by billybeingbilly on Nov 7, 2011 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
i would gladly accept that
we’re getting closer and closer to twins territory, a bunch of 2-2.5 WAR pitchers.
If the starting pitchers could provide 10-12 WAR
and the position players can repeat the 25.9 WAR from 2011, plus 3 or so WAR from the bullpen…then the 2012 Royals would be an 83-86 win team.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 7, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
i wish the season would just start now
DM did something good, lets just close up shop and skip to Arizona
We finally get a guy who can miss bats but has major flaws
And there is no McClure to fix him. I wonder if all the walks are because he doesn’t pitch inside often enough. Who will inform him of this problem?
I have no idea how this will end.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
To continue our previous discussion of Apple products and Jonathan Sanchez
several of of his best games to date are available for purchase and download from the iTunes store.
His no-hitter against the Padres in 2009. Box score.
The NL West clincher against the Padres on the last day of the regular season in 2010. (Best moment: Sanchez’s triple.) Box score.
His next start, an excellent effort against the Braves in the NLDS. Box score.
His other 3 postseason starts from 2010 are also available, of course, and although he was pretty good in his first outing against the Phillies in the NLDS he apparently didn’t have much left in the tank that late in the year. I can dig up the iTunes links for those if anyone’s interested in seeing him flail. Or jaw.
There’s also a 2011 start of his available, in an interleague game against the A’s. This time, Sanchez needed 100 pitches to get through 6 innings, and the game is decided long after his departure. Box score. This may be the shape of things to come.
So, if you’re not caught up in other forms of excitement, such as NCAA football, Manchester City FC, or paternity allegations against celebrities, and you have a couple of disposable dollars, you can spend a little time enjoying Jonathan Sanchez’s greatest hits.
A few more from 2009
as Sanchez was randomly involved in two walk-off losses and a 1-0 loss all between August 16 and September 6 that year, and iTunes has all three:
A nice start but a no-decision against the Mets. Box score.
A 1-0 loss in Philadelphia. Box score.
A no-decision in Milwaukee. Box score.
Relief appearances from 2007!
These are the games you absolutely must buy if you are completely nuts about the Sanchez trade.
Middle relief against the Yankees. (Features Matt Morris, who has nothing, Barry Bonds, who has two hits and two RBI.) Box score.
A scoreless inning in Chicago after Morris struggles again. Box score.
There are also a couple of lousy outings, including this one in a very historic game. Bonds hits #756, Sanchez sets the stage for Correia’s blown save. Box score.
I immediately like this trade.
I heard the particulars this morning on my way to work. This is the first non-deadline trade that Dayton Moore has made in a few years that I have liked. Just a clear thumbs up from me.
www.rockchalktalk.com for pretty good KU baseball coverage
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