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Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

If you really don't know what you think on the 120' vs long toss debate here is a fairly simple and easy to understand breakdown of the case for long toss. You may have heard me ramble about LT before but this should help you understand more about it. Make sure you catch Part 2 when he releases it.

5 months ago Bsnublcd_tiny 306008 9 comments 0 recs  | 

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This sequence cracked me up:
What they need are more structured throwing sessions (practice, not competition) and a comprehensive throwing and strength and conditioning program to prepare them for the demands they’ll face.

Followed immediately by this picture:

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Dec 15, 2011 2:13 PM EST reply actions  

This article talks a lot about the appropriate training for youth athletes

Of course it is not only about that, but it seems to me that there’s a difference between the best program for a 14-year-old pitcher and a 21-year-old pitcher. The 14-year-old doesn’t have a good base of arm strength. He really needs to build that before you focus on fine tuning his mechanics. But that’s much less true of a 21-year-old. There’s already a lot of arm strength there. Of course every pitcher is different, but with most 21-year-olds, isn’t the problem more control and pitch making (movement, location) than arm strength?

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Dec 15, 2011 4:01 PM EST reply actions  

But muscle mass helps control. Sorta.

Theoretically since you would have more muscle fibers grouped in more ways, having extra muscle mass allows you finer control over your movements.
Of course its impossible for your muscles to be that discriminating, which is why really bulky guys have a harder time with fine movement. Even a small increase in regulators trigger a lot of muscle movement then.

But I could see where adding muscle could help with control, as well as velocity.

"We don’t have guys with a long history of being effective in the seventh and eighth innings."
~Trey Hillman, master of understatements.

by RoyalPug on Dec 15, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Strength and conditioning still matter after your body is grown, though.

Movement, control, location, pitch selection, etc. are certainly more important for the 21yo than for the 14yo, but you still need velocity (and health) as a base upon which to build those things. If a training regimen allows you to maintain and improve your strength and conditioning while avoiding injuries, it isn’t hard to see how that makes you a better pitcher.

I will say that, in my efforts to understand why Jaeger is so controversial, I find that all of the writing on the topic is full of fuzziness. The talk of “over-molding” and “specificity” in this piece is a good example. Another example: “it’s our job as coaches to find the biggest window of adaptation a pitcher has and bring it up to speed – while simultaneously keeping other qualities in mind.”

What does “window of adaptation” really mean? That “other qualities” are you keeping in mind? Why don’t you just tell me what you mean, instead of leaving me to fill in the gaps like that?

The central message I take from this piece is that the author believes long toss programs can be used to build arm strength (and thus velocity) in ways that target the activity of pitching more than weight training but remain safer than endless bullpen sessions. That seems reasonable, but it’s just the author’s belief… and it is couched in all kinds of vaguery that leaves me feeling suspicious.

Maybe I just need to ignore that other stuff, but the constant proselytizing (and the imprecise language that that entails) somehow leaves me feeling skeptical.

by kcemigre on Dec 16, 2011 9:05 AM EST up reply actions  

The one thing long toss does that I like is make your arm stronger by throwing a baseball.

I’m not convinced that happens (from personal experience and through coaching) when throwing bullpen sessions or capping it at 110-120 feet. With young kids, I really like it for the simple fact that throwing motions appear more pure when throwing for distance instead of trying to hit their partner in the chest. Once that throwing motion is learned, I believe the finer points of pitching become easier to learn.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Dec 16, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

It seems like there's a lot of fuzziness on both sides of the argument

This calls for some long-term study involving a significant number of young pitchers, half following one program and the other half following the other program. Until we’ve got some data, you’ve got a lot of people arguing very vociferiously that their program works a lot better than the other.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Dec 16, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

The type of data to run a real experiment on this would probably be impossible to assemble, from what I remember of experimental design.

by WURoyal on Dec 16, 2011 8:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

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