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12/18 Royals Links: More Oswalt Talk, the 1990 Royals, Bonds, Bucs, Beauty

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No bold predictions...

…from Gordon, just platitudes about trying hard everyday. Straight from Crash Davis. …I was surprised Brett never reached the 45 2B, 20+ HR, =>.300 BA category. But I looked it up and it’s true. Interesting. – TL

"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

by timlacy on Dec 18, 2011 8:27 AM EST reply actions  

still wouldnt mind seeing Oswalt signed. maybe 1 year + mutual option year.

make the salary heavily performance based. i say $5 million gauranteed + up to $5 million in performance incentives, such as K/9 level, era, innings pitched, wins, number of playoff victories, etc.

by DickHowser4ever on Dec 18, 2011 9:34 AM EST reply actions  

I would definitely agree

I would really like the mutual option just because if he pitches well and we could feasibly be in contention in 2013, he would be a good guy to have.

BFIB

by tiquanunderwear on Dec 18, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

i used to live in Houston and absolutely loved watching Oswalt pitch.

the guy always OWNED the inside corner, and it seemed he only had 1 game plan when on the mound: ATTACK!!! i think he would be a great mentor type for the young guys as well.

i would even be okay with 2 mutual option years.

by DickHowser4ever on Dec 18, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I thought incentives couldn't be performance based - at least not era, K/9, wins, etc.

I thought performance-wise they could only be tied to stuff like innings pitched or games appeared in or stuff like that.

by Gross(est) on Dec 18, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

It's absolutely true

Incentives are usually based on playing time, though they are also often given for earning awards/distinctions, such as the MVP.

by sumajestad on Dec 18, 2011 11:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

It isn't in the CBA, itself...

…except by reference to the MLB rules.

MLB Rule 3(b), however, says:

No Major League Uniform Player’s Contract or Minor League Uniform Player Contract shall be approved if it contains a bonus for playing, pitching or batting skill or if it provides for the payment of a bonus contingent on the standing of the signing Club at the end of the championship season.

That last clause is a little interesting. The team option in Mike Sweeney’s contract could vest based upon standing, but we couldn’t have paid him a bonus based upon the same event.

by kcemigre on Dec 18, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

and it SHOULD be this way...

otherwise, people could just pick whatever team and all pay would be based on stats and would ruin competitive nature for GMs and guaranteed contracts to the player

I am the one who knocks.

by PhattStairs on Dec 18, 2011 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

if KC were to go after Oswalt, how would you structure the contract incentives??

i say:
(1) season ERA < 3.75 = $1 million (minimum 100 innings pitched)
(2) total innings pitched > 125 = $1 million
(3) wins > 15 = $1 million
(4) K/9 > current career average = $1 million
(5) $250,000 for each playoff victory
(6) each start with >= 10 Ks, Royals donate $10,00 per strike out to Roys favorite charity

by DickHowser4ever on Dec 18, 2011 11:05 AM EST reply actions  

Pirates apparently now have the best system in the history of whatever

If they keep outspending everyone in the draft, the rest of the NL is in trouble.

by Gopherballs on Dec 18, 2011 1:33 PM EST reply actions  

they seem to not have done much of a job drafting

they took the obvious choices, which were good and it shows at the top, but they really lack depth.

by 9il on Dec 18, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

eh

Only Cole and Taillon can really be considered “obvious choices.” Bell and Allie were smart over-slot picks, Heredia and Marte were big international signings, and Grossman, McPherson, and Cain were late round steals.

by Gopherballs on Dec 19, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Is it just me, or are the McCovey Cove "editors" totally wrong?

To summarize: Since Bonds provided such amazing baseball for the Giants, they (or at least the writer, Grant Brisbee) are “very happy” he didn’t get jail time.

So if someone does you a solid, they should be exempt from the law (or at least exempt from lying to a grand jury)? That’s how I read it.

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 18, 2011 4:24 PM EST reply actions  

+1

A fucking Men

I am the one who knocks.

by PhattStairs on Dec 18, 2011 8:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I did swap "obstruction" for "lying" - not meant literally, just as shorthand

I’ll restate it accordingly: He was convicted of obstructing justice – should he not be punished accordingly, which would usually be jail time?

If the jury was wrong (as you say: “there was no examination of Bonds’ intent in connection with that testimony. It’s a bad precedent and should be overturned”), that’s a different argument, one not made by the author. I maintain that the author was conflating “using steroids” and “obstructing justice”, and what he said was, essentially, “I don’t care if you are convicted of obstructing justice, so long as you played really good baseball for my team”.

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 18, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

What the author said was

that he was glad Bonds got no jail time. You said that such a response implied that the author must believe, for reasons I don’t need to repeat, that Bonds is exempt from the law. I responded to the glaring flaws in that assumption; in fact, I went as far as to say, full respect for the law and a hope that Bonds’ conviction is overturned — which is going much farther than Grant Brisbee went in his posting — are not at all inconsistent with each other.

Are you aware that Bonds was given the sentence recommended by the probation officer? In light of that, how can you claim that he wasn’t punished accordingly? And how can you claim that his conviction “usually” results in “jail time”? We are in new legal territory here; the judge noted that obstruction of justice “usually involves more sinister conduct – threatening a juror, for example,” per the SF Chronicle. I think we’re seeing a wholly new interpretation of that statute, and frankly, I think it’s alarming that obviously intelligent and concerned people like you can believe that what we’re seeing is “usual”.

There is ample precedent for rambling testimony to result in a stern warning from a judge and renewed questioning on the part of prosecutors — not charges of obstruction of justice and jail time. The appeals process will determine whether the judge was in error when allowing the count of the charge on which he was convicted to be tried. God help us if as a result of this case our prosecutors are given the power to harass witnesses whenever testimony is offered that is either beside the point or can be portrayed as such when witnesses do not testify to their liking. The testimony wouldn’t even need to be proven as false; just irrelevant. Prosecutors already have sufficient powers in the grand jury process; I am opposed to granting them new ones.

by 2X2L on Dec 19, 2011 12:43 AM EST up reply actions  

You're arguing the legal issue. McCovey Chronicles was not.

That’s the point. They even seem to agree that Bonds received a lesser punishment than was called for:

Bonds got off with a slap of the wrist. When I think of Bonds, I think about some of the fondest memories baseball has ever given me. Around these parts, that will give him a pass for an awful lot over the rest of his life, even if you can’t understand that.

While I’m no expert on sentencing, I am trusting the news that says the sentencing was below the Federal guidelines:

Three out of four people convicted of obstruction of justice serve time in prison, federal court records show.
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2007/07/04/PERJURE.ART_ART_07-04-07_A1_DK76Q2V.html

Legal analysts expect Illston to follow most of the probation department’s suggestions and “downward depart” from federal sentencing guidelines calling for 15 months to 21 months….

http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2011-12-16/bonds-to-be-sentenced-today-for-obstruction-of-justice#ixzz1h0MOmf00

A jury convicted Nguyen of a single count of obstruction of justice for lying to investigators. A federal judge has sentenced him to a year in jail and a day in prison. He’ll also spend six months in a residential re-entry program….
http://www.scpr.org/news/2011/02/14/24045/former-orange-county-congressional-candidate-sente/

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 19, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm arguing the legal issues

not because McCovey Chronicles is about the legal issues but because you brought them up in connection with that article:

So if someone does you a solid, they should be exempt from the law (or at least exempt from lying to a grand jury)? That’s how I read it.

Your original comment assumes that he was convicted for lying to a grand jury, even though he was not. You then said that you said “lying to a grand jury” instead of “obstruction” merely as a kind of “shorthand”, which shows that you do not understand the legal issues involved (not that I understand all of them myself).

We have now discussed why this particular conviction for obstruction of justice is unusual, and you yourself have cited a source that shows that 25% of convictions for obstruction of justice do not result in jail time. I believe you now have plenty of reason to reconsider whether an expectation of jail time was appropriate in this case. Note that no one who was following it closely expected it, in spite of invocations of the federal sentencing guidelines for obstruction of justice in many reports on the verdict and sentencing, provided by news agencies catering to folks who have hoped that the unpopular defendant would have the book thrown at him, retrieved, and thrown at him again. Guidelines are guidelines; where they don’t apply, they should not be applied. They didn’t apply in this case, for reasons cited by the judge that I’ve already referenced. That should be an end of that, but you persist.

You then cite another case in which someone was convicted of obstruction of justice for lying to investigators that has nothing whatsoever to do with Bonds’ case. Bonds was not charged with lying to investigators but with lying to a grand jury, and not convicted. He was charged with obstruction of justice and convicted, not for lying but for not immediately and directly answering a question that he ultimately answered. That you equate these two cases is another sign that you’re not really all that interested in the legal issues.

So please stop talking about the legal issues, at least until you have a closer look at them. I’m not going to argue Grant’s position for him; he does that on his own. I simply took exception to your assumption that it showed lack of respect for the law. It doesn’t.

by 2X2L on Dec 19, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

There has only been one comment that has to do with the actual MCC article (which was the point of the original comment)
What the author said was that he was glad Bonds got no jail time. You said that such a response implied that the author must believe, for reasons I don’t need to repeat, that Bonds is exempt from the law.

I eventually responded about the author’s intent:

They [MCC] even seem to agree that Bonds received a lesser punishment than was called for:
Bonds got off with a slap of the wrist. When I think of Bonds, I think about some of the fondest memories baseball has ever given me. Around these parts, that will give him a pass for an awful lot over the rest of his life, even if you can’t understand that.
In light of that comment, do you still believe that the author did not imply that he is glad/very glad/ecstatic that Bonds got a light sentence, one lighter than a non-Giants-hero would have deserved?

Like I was trying to say, I’m interested in what people thought of MCC’s reaction, which has not been discussed. It is clear you believe the sentence was appropriate (and/or the verdict was wrong entirely). What if it weren’t (the belief that I claim MCC has)? – is it right to root for your baseball stars to get a lesser sentence?

.

BTW, there are at least three times, just in your last comment, where I thought “why does this guy (gal) have to use such condescending, language-twisting, misrepresentative responses?” Let me list the one that I found most offensive, and here’s a little rant:

That you equate these two cases is another sign that you’re not really all that interested in the legal issues. So please stop talking about the legal issues, at least until you have a closer look at them.
Did I use the word “equate” or any word like it? Did I do anything other than present it as an example of sentencing to juxtapose with Bonds’s case? First, you put a false statement in my mouth. Then this false statement leads you (somehow) to me not being interested in the legal issues, which is clearly not the case, evidenced by the existence of this long discussion.
And that second sentence makes even less sense than the previous one. According to you, I don’t know enough about the legal situation to even talk about it. Nor have I taken a close enough look, so apparently—other than to ask if I may touch the hem of your garment—I must remain silent.

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 19, 2011 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

We certainly agree that I haven’t discussed my reaction to the original article.

About the rest, I think we are talking at cross purposes. I apologize for not failing to find any common ground between us.

I still take exception to the presumption you’re making here:

In light of that comment, do you still believe that the author did not imply that he is glad/very glad/ecstatic that Bonds got a light sentence, one lighter than a non-Giants-hero would have deserved?

that his sentence actually is lighter than he deserved, given the jury’s decisions and the facts of the case. I keep trying to discuss the facts of the case with you in order to shed more light on that presumption, but you keep fending me off. And now you’re offended. So I guess it’s just not going to happen.

by 2X2L on Dec 19, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

How about an analogy

Suppose the Royals pitching is miraculously effective this year and they find themselves in contention with the Tigers late in the season for 1st place in the AL Central. Their lineup features a bunch of guys with shiny batting averages, so the common assumption is that the offense is great. However, in spite of averaging about 12 hits a night they play a stretch of games in late August and early September in which they often fall short by one or two runs (with the pitching holding up all the while, so clearly this analogy is nothing but a fantasy), and they ultimately fall out of the race with about 10 days to go.

Almost everywhere people are talking about the Royals, on the TV broadcasts, in print, and on Facebook, you hear or read that the reason the team has fallen out of the race is that the young hitters haven’t yet learned to be unselfish and to make productive outs. They didn’t score enough runs because they didn’t move enough runners up. “The selfish young Royals” becomes an Internet meme. On Facebook there is a groundswell of support to name Chris Getz the team captain for 2013.

At the very height of this tide, Rany posts a long piece (long even for him) about how great it was to root for a Royals team that was in the thick of the race until the very end of summer. Just to follow a team playing meaningful baseball through the back end of the schedule was marvelous, even redemptive. He says is in love with the Royals and can’t wait until spring.

In response to a link to Rany’s article posted on Facebook, a poster invites others into a discussion of Rany’s article with the following question: “Has Rany failed to condemn the team for its lack of productive outs because he is blinded by enthusiasm?”

Instead of responding by talking about Rany’s article, I attempt to rebut the question by offering the view that the Royals’ offense, in spite of the shiny batting average, was insufficient because of its merely pedestrian on-base percentage. This is not the discussion the original poster wanted to have, and the exchange, frustrating for both parties, goes nowhere.

In the offseason the Royals reacquire Willie Bloomquist.

by 2X2L on Dec 20, 2011 8:51 AM EST up reply actions  

I can't tell if you disagree with

what I say the author’s intent was
or
what I think the correct/fair sentence was
(or both)

So here’s a summary in a concise but not-all-that-concise couple paragraphs:

I think that the author feels that Bonds got a lesser sentence than was probably deserved for the conviction. This is based on only a few remarks, in particular the “slap on the wrist” line, so I could be totally misreading it. What took us off track is that if the author did feel this way (big IF), then it doesn’t matter whether he (or I or you or the 100 commenters who agreed with him) was right or wrong about the correctness of the conviction/sentence: his opinion (or yours or mine or anyone else’s) on the events as he saw them is what’s at issue.

As for the real life matter of whether the conviction or the sentence were justified and correct, it seems we’re making no headway. My stance right now is that I have yet to see an example of an obstruction of justice conviction where the sentence was as low as (or less than) Bonds’s, which makes me extremely skeptical. My knowledge of precedent is very thin, and I’d be glad to learn that there is precedent that supports the sentence (and I’d be glad to learn that it wasn’t as whimsical as it seemed).

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 20, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the comment that "Bonds got off with a slap on the wrist"

is not — consciously or unconsciously — an assessment of the outcome of the trial but of the whole bag of Bondsian brouhaha that Giants fans have been dealing with for years and years, including all the stuff going back to the ‘90s, such as the messy divorce from the first wife and the legendary clubhouse rocking chair, as well as the steroids flap that the trial wasn’t technically about. The outcome of the trial may have prompted the response, but the response itself is to the broad, persistent, anti-Bonds reaction that Giants fans have had to cope with since he became a polarizing figure many years ago — with its basic thrust that we are fools and sheep to root for this guy.

I think that hereabouts the trial feels only like a coda; no one I talk to separates feelings about the trial from feelings about the endless pressure of ill will that we have experienced for over a decade. That it has all devolved to a “slap on the wrist” — with nearly all the world hoping for worse for ten years or more — has got to feel like a validation, doesn’t it? — without having anything to do with the technical fitness of the sentencing.

by 2X2L on Dec 20, 2011 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

My stance right now is that I have yet to see an example of an obstruction of justice conviction where the sentence was as low as (or less than) Bonds’s, which makes me extremely skeptical.

While you’re hitting the casebooks looking for precedents, the New York Times article on the sentencing has more comments from the judge on the nature of the guidelines you and nearly everyone else continually cites without analysis — and why they do not apply.

Illston said Bonds’s behavior was not as serious as his conviction might suggest. "In guidelines that apply to us, examples of obstruction of justice are things like threats of force and intimidation of jurors — significant criminal behavior," she said. "What was convicted here was of a different nature."

So, if you want to persist with your skepticism, you are essentially going to have to take it up with the judge.

by 2X2L on Dec 21, 2011 11:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe we can salvage some of this discussion

if I tell you my reaction to the article.

I don’t think Grant is talking about what Bonds deserved or about whether the sentence was appropriate. I think he’s talking about human nature in the face of the kind of events that he has experienced; it’s way more interesting than an assessment of the case, and certainly way more interesting than anything I’ve said about it. He sums things up very nicely when he says:

when I think of Barry Bonds, I’m going to think about baseball. Good baseball — the best I’ve ever seen.

and not about federal investigations, perjury, obstruction of justice, trials, prosecutions, defenses, verdicts, and sentences. Was the sentence just or unjust? He’s not even on that topic — he is saying that his complex and longstanding relationship with this particular Giants’ legend makes the outcome seem, quite naturally, like a reprieve from all that. It feels like a win, which is after all what he had been conditioned to root for all along. I like the article; it has a very nice human element in it. This part is great:

When 40,000 people get out of their chairs in Milwaukee next April and give Ryan Braun a standing ovation, don’t just assume that they’re all bleating goats who will chew on whatever tin cans they’re fed. This stuff’s complicated. Being a passionate fan of anything messes with your brain chemistry.

That opens the door to other folks who are not Giants’ fans to discuss their feelings about similar situations. It’s a nice invitation.

Note that the “pass” he says he’s willing to grant Bonds is not for the crimes he was charged with but for “the rest of his life”. I think this is a purposeful evasion of the details of the trial; that’s not, as I think I’ve said, the focus of his evaluation here.

by 2X2L on Dec 19, 2011 9:58 PM EST up reply actions  

We seem to be saying the same things about the article, yet meaning different

Not that either interpretation is right/wrong or better/worse. When he says “when I think of Barry Bonds, I’m going to think about baseball. Good baseball — the best I’ve ever seen”, you get the impression that his relationship (if you will) to Bonds is interesting because it’s above or at least separate from the trial and conviction (please correct me if I’m off-base in paraphrasing you), while my take is that I agree he is looking past the trial and conviction—and the correctness of the outcome—which is a problem.

Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 20, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

He was, is, etc...

Bonds was lying, is a bad person, and did deserve worse than he got.
But, he is likely all shriveled up and will be dead before his time…so at least there’s that.

by royalsfantexas on Dec 18, 2011 11:16 PM EST reply actions  

If Oswalt can get us into the playoffs in 2012, do it.

But he’s unlikely to do so. I can’t imagine adding Roy Oswalt will be the difference between making the postseason and not making the postseason. Even with him, we’re still a mediocre fielding team and have a below average starting rotation. Maybe that gets us to 85-87 wins, but I can’t imagine doing any better.

Sure, it would be nice to have a winning record for a change. But I’m more concerned with the postseason. I don’t see adding Oswalt as being the missing piece in becoming a postseason team. I think if this team was another year developed (which I expect them to be in 2013), Oswalt would be a great pickup. But I think he’s only got 1 more quality year left in him. That arm is going to fall off soon. I don’t think we can realistically expect 2 good years out of him. So don’t do it. Save the money.

by Kim DeJesus on Dec 18, 2011 11:59 PM EST reply actions  

Would be interesting

If he signs a one year deal somewhere and his back holds up, I’d like to take a closer look at him for 2013.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Dec 19, 2011 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

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