Yuniesky Betancourt and Bad Dayton Moore Make Their Return
by Freneau on Dec 24, 2011 12:12 AM EST
in Kansas City Royals News
Email
Print
There are no excuses now. Before, the Royals were simply playing out the string (except they weren't quite, but that's another story) and Yuni was just someone to acquire because a point had to be made about rebellious and misbehaving Minor Leaguers. And when he was miraculously part of the Zack Greinke trade at nearly this exact time last year, we had reason to be thankful and even a little understanding. All the bromides and boilerplate were just that: of course they knew his limitations and saw the need to get him out of town lest another random HR set off another spark of seduction.
Then they brought him back.
This is what being a Royal fan is. The team currently employs an all-glove SS with a .290 OBP. For $2 million dollars next season, they've brought in a .271 OBP player with no glove. He will compete with a man named Chris Getz, who may actually be worse. But certainly, certainly they know what they are doing. How silly of us even to complain. The fact that he was mentioned as someone to spell Mike Moustakas is too believable to qualify as a joke. One shudders realizing it might actually be needed.
He will serve as a backup utility player. Supposedly he's veteran insurance, a reliable bit of security, there to help Ned Yost sleep at night, so that dear Ned can get those five hours of dreams about hunting that he's always deserved. This is a very curious form of a safety net however, as it happens to look very much more like a dastardly provision placed in some kind of marriage or inheritance contract out of Trollope.
So, Can You Forgive Her? Here's what we know about Yuni Betancourt: he can't hit and he can't field. I don't think we can really argue those points. Can't field, can't hit. We don't even know if he can actually play second. He's over 30. He's, umm, notoriously non-assiduous regarding his fitness levels. Oh well, there were positive scouting reports about him in 2001, so silly me. And Adam Dunn sucked last year, so we now know that all stats are lies.
As I took to Twitter this afternoon the two defenses of the deal were: he'll never play and he actually helps the roster because the other options are worse. Such a rousing defense of the regime! Apparently, the greatest most super duper farm system of all time can't produce a utility infielder who sucks at fielding and hitting less. And oh, it's all really really irrelevant because our manager does not play bench players anyway. (He just needs the reassurance.)
If you want an actually good move, well, that's asking too much.
I felt the cold draft of 2007 or 2009 tonight or really just all of it in one endless year without a summer. The bad moves pile up and it appears still obvious that, at the most fundamental level, the front office simply does not value outs. The man's been the GM for five years now, and between the Francoeurs and the Yunis and the Sanchezes and the Collinses and the Crows, the Royals might as well offer the opposing team four outs and/or walks at the beginning of the game just to speed things up. Here you go, we literally do not care about the details. Eric Hosmer and Frenchy smilin' and dancin' on flyin' eagles of American awesomeness yay! The Royals will beat you with one hand tied behind their backs, which obviously they can do because they've done it all along. I think we finished third that one time, right?
So remember the $2 million the Royals are paying Yuni when you realize they can't afford to run Fan Fest this year, or when Alex Gordon decides, actually, he'll just as well hit free agency, rather than take a lowball offer from the Royals.
We've lived with it for so long we barely notice, but even the closest Royals observers, including a number of pro-Dayton believers, readily admit that they have utterly no idea what the team is doing. If we read in February that the Royals are considering making Luke Hochevar a setup man, will anyone be surprised? Maybe Broxton can start and Francoeur can play CF, because I hear Getz looked great in the outfield himself. Oh well, the best farm system ever has produced I think half of one pitcher who pitched well above Wilmington and we've got lots of corner infield options and Lo Cain sure is fast and Colon looked at a teammate real serious this one time. And oh, we own the free agent market, because remember how Gil Meche quit a year early.
Another year, another roster that fundamentally does not make sense. The Royals are redundant in the areas they think they have needs and starving in the places they believe they are full. What label would you give the parade of ever more worse shortstops we have known? But, oh, dear Alcides can at least field. Huzza for getting us back to where we were with Andres Blanco seven years ago, had anyone been paying attention. Never worry though, say the defenders, Yuni will... not... play.
He can't field, he can't hit, the boss likes him. That's really all you need to know. Can't field, can't hit, isn't young. Boss wants him around. Boss sees a solution, however minor. Want a snack, here's a bit of indigestible clay. As numerous people with access to Baseball-Reference have pointed out, entirely homegrown teams do not exist. You can have good prospects, sure, but you have to augment them with useful parts. You have to make good trades and sign helpful free agents. How are the Royals going to ever win 90 games under this regime?
495 comments
|
16 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Right there with you.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 21, 2011 12:25 AM EST reply actions
How can soo much hope faith and momentum
In this franchise go south in 24 hours?! Oh yea…
Because go for it….
GMDM … You umpalumpa! Go drown in the chocolate river!
"Stay Classy Kansas City"
by Mas Cervezas on Dec 21, 2011 12:29 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I particularly love
That we had so many in house options, Aviles, Yamaico, Bianchi, even just sticking with getz and only having 1 utility infielder. All of which would have been cheaper and probably better.
"We don’t have guys with a long history of being effective in the seventh and eighth innings."
~Trey Hillman, master of understatements.
by RoyalPug on Dec 21, 2011 12:34 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I will not say I agree with this move.
But I did not like {Aviles, Yamaico, Getz}, either. I actually wasn’t bothered by the Theriot and Rentaria talk. Anybody else like those guys a little better right now?
Seriously, how does everybody compare those guys to the All-New Yuni?
RoyalsRetro, you should start a Yuni-form Nickname Contest. Winner takes all, and after the winner is announced, he can only be discussed by that name.
by Rufus R. Jones on Dec 21, 2011 1:02 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
RoyalsRetro, you should start a Yuni-form Nickname Contest
I would, but this is a family blog.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Batter Nine You Sucky
by acclamation
2011 Royals Review NCAA Bracket Challenge Winner, by process of attrition
by sfeldkamp on Dec 21, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I always thought it would be Bloomquist (Clemenza)
Man, Dayton sure does like bad players
C. Montgomery Hunt: One of the greatest heroes in American history.
When Will is pissed off
he writes like an angel. A bitter, caustic angel but an angel nonetheless.
by LaFLamme on Dec 21, 2011 1:05 AM EST reply actions 8 recs
"Want a snack, here's a bit of indigestible clay."
Is immediately top 5 one liners all-time for me. I will be stealing this and using many different variations.
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Dec 21, 2011 1:55 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
slightly OT, but did you know that clay appears in many of our foods?
non-dairy creamer? kaolinite
triple thick shakes? bentonite
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
So good
That line wins the Internet. It’s done, everyone else stop trying. Winner.
You probably don't remember me as Settles7thYearofEligibility.
by Mike Brownlee on Dec 21, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
He's in stage 2 of grief - anger.
I’m looking forward to his bargaining, depression and acceptance posts.
What stage is he at with Frenchy?
by spamiam79 on Dec 21, 2011 3:02 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
This statement is quite accurate.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Dec 21, 2011 10:09 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Best defense for this signing:
It’s $2M, he’s competent (tho bad) at SS, he has the arm to play 3B, his range will be less exposed at 2B, and his career wOBA vs LHP is .314 which is in the neighborhood of average. If he’s used well, he’ll probably get more WAR as a back-up than he would as a starter. At $1M, it’d probably be a good deal.
I don’t like the move, but it’s a C- type move (in a baseball sense; it’s A+ for humor). For me, the Chen signing is still the low-point of the offseason. I like the Sanchez trade a lot and the Broxton signing seems like it could be a good value, tho in the wrong spot for this team. A pretty meh off-season overall so far then. We’ll see what happens the rest of the way.
by kcdc1 on Dec 21, 2011 1:18 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
i agree with most of that....
and there’s absolutely nothing in their past actions or their words when talking about looking for a utility IF to make us think he’ll take meaningful PT away from guys that matter
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 1:47 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ross Gload? Willie Bloomquist?....
and I believe “He won’t play much” was one of the lousy defenses of the acquisition Will just mentioned. It doesn’t have anymore validity when repeated.
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
by setupunchtag on Dec 21, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Come on
Haven't Moore and Yost earned the benefit of the doubt by now?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
who the fuck mattered on our team when those guys were playing?
they werent taking time from a single guy who figured to be a part of the future
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Now, maybe they'd never have panned out anyway,
but Gload was taking PAs from Ryan Shealy and then Kila Ka’aihue in 2008. Whether or not they were worthy of considering a part of the future is obviously debatable, but they were both in-house options that were at least commodities that the Royals should have been evaluating that Gload was blocking.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 21, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
kila had very few AAA ABs prior to 2008.....
and wasnt particularly good in AAA in 2008…in my mind, kila was probably called up a month or two too late in 2010…but thats all the mishandling i can possibly see
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
Do you not remember the pointless Mike Jacobs signing and the ensuing season-long blockage?
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 22, 2011 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
i remember that kila wasnt good that year in AAA
so there reallyw asnt a case to be made for calling him up
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 22, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
His OBP was still .392 that year and his SLG was .433.
The case to have called him up was that Mike Jacobs was actually playing.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 23, 2011 1:57 AM EST up reply actions
Why the fuck you gotta use 'fuck', there?
I’ve got no problem with the use of the word, really. But there? No point. It’s gratuitous.
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
by setupunchtag on Dec 24, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
I would like trhe Sanchez trade so much more if he wasn't just a 1 yr guy
But we’ve all argued about that long ago
That is undoubtedly the best defense of this signing. And it's a weak defense, as you'd expect from an essentially indefensible signing
It’s $2M
Which is way too much for a barely replacement level and declining player of his age. There were many options as bad as him or better for less money.
he’s competent (tho bad) at SS
If advanced defensive metrics mean anything, he’s a genuinely awful defensive SS. If “competent” means he’s been there before and is familiar with the mechanics of playing the position, then yes. If “competent” means “not horrendous,” then no. His defense is horrendous. UZR and DRS agree wholeheartedly on Yuni, as does my own eyes (for whatever that’s worth).
he has the arm to play 3B, his range will be less exposed at 2B
He’s probably not awful at 3B and 2B defensively, and players you can say that about are a dime a dozen.
his career wOBA vs LHP is .314 which is in the neighborhood of average
Considering how Yost uses players, there’s no reason to believe that he’ll end up facing a majority of LHP’s.
he’s used well, he’ll probably get more WAR as a back-up than he would as a starter
That is simply ridiculous.
At $1M, it’d probably be a good deal.
Replacement level UI’s who can handle 3B and 2B but are awful at SS are easy to find and very cheap. $1M would be too much for such a player. Tito listed several better possibilities and I threw in a couple in the other thread.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
Don't want a giant argument about Yuni
We agree that he sucks. Just want to clarify a couple points:
If "competent" means "not horrendous," then no. His defense is horrendous.
His career UZR/150 at SS is -8.1. That’s bad, but it doesn’t kill you. He’s probably a better fielding SS than Getz, Moose or Gio, so he’ll earn the dubious distinction of being the 2nd best fielding SS on the roster.
[The notion that he’ll accumulate more WAR as a back-up than he would as a starter] is simply ridiculous.
If he’s used primarily against LHP, his offensive rate states could be well above replacement level. If Yuni is used as an every-day starter, he’s replacement level. Multiply that by 600 PA, and it’s still 0 WAR. If he’s used against LHP, he’s above replacement level. Multiply that by just 100 PA’s and it’s above 0 WAR.
His career UZR/150 at SS is -8.1. That’s bad, but it doesn’t kill you.
I’m all for looking at multiple years to get a good sized sample, but not to the point that you’re equally weighting the last 7 seasons. In the last four seasons, his UZR/150 is roughly -11.3. That really is horrendous. And given the aging curve of defense, his defense should be getting worse.
If he’s used primarily against LHP, his offensive rate states could be well above replacement level. If Yuni is used as an every-day starter, he’s replacement level. Multiply that by 600 PA, and it’s still 0 WAR. If he’s used against LHP, he’s above replacement level. Multiply that by just 100 PA’s and it’s above 0 WAR.
I’ll grant that he’s above replacement level by a little. Very little. Even RHP’s who are bench specialists against LHP’s face maybe 55% lefties. And that is an extreme case. Typically such players end up facing more RHP than LHP. So even with a disproportionate number of PA’s against LHP, that’s till a lot of PA’s against RHP and enough to keep his hitting as a significant negative (although the absolute value of all of his positives and negatives will be considerably smaller with less playing time.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
We agree he’s bad at defense.
Any shift toward facing more LHP’s should help make his WAR more positive. 25% to 100% would be best, but 25% to 55% still helps.
Also, Yuni isn’t very good. Just want to make it clear that I’m not suggesting he is.
I think Scott's point (and many others' view)
is that Yuni isn’t just bad. He’s worse than bad, he’s very bad to horrendous.
And the difference between bad and horrendous is real and leads to more runs scored
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Bad vs horrendous
His TTL is probably in the neighborhood of -8 to -10 UZR. Pick the adjective that suits you.
Not again UZR
His career UZR/150 at SS is -8.1. That’s bad, but it doesn’t kill you. He’s probably a better fielding SS than Getz, Moose or Gio, so he’ll earn the dubious distinction of being the 2nd best fielding SS on the roster.
Here we go again! UZR data that stinks! I personally hate the UZR data. Because, what the eye views is not the same as what the data states on the players defense. Part of defense..is being able to make every play possible for the out. The UZR ignores the defensive players “infield pop flies, fooul balls and infield line drives”..Why is that? Is it not part of being a defensive player? Wow, if that is ignored as part of the percentage of the UZR..then may be the players should not go out of there way to make the out on those so call defensive plays..they shoould ignore the plays as well! That’s just how I feel about the UZR data..it stinks. Ok, go ahead and attack me…I’m already used to the attacks!
It’s a waste of time for me to even consider the UZR data…As far as I am concern..I rate the player as I view them! A line drive caught to make an out..infield pop flies need to be caught and should be included when rating defense. Moose, Gio and Getz played well last season. Moose and Gio for rookies did pretty well and will do better this new season. I have not seen Betancourt play, cannot say much about him! From what i’m reading there are not many happy campers with this move. All I can say is, we still have most of our regular guys. Which I’m thankful to for now! Betancourt is not the only guy on the team and KC Royals is not a one man team. I’m staying positive our Royals will do better this year. So..Goooooooooooooo Royals!
Sorry, no question
I just hate the UZR data system how it works. I read that part of the defense is calculated for each zone defensively. Example: the infielder defense..any plays that includes..pop flies, line drive and foul balls are ignored. This tells me it is not part of the percentage in rating the player defense. Why would those play not count if it is part of being a defensive player?
Well...
Not being an expert on the subject and just applying some common sense (and assuming what you say about UZR is true)— 1) pop flies are plays that need to be made, but the vast majority of them are not testing the range of infielders, so I think they’re ignored because they might give credit to an infielder for catching them when they were outs before the batter threw his bat down; 2) line drives are usually only caught when hit right at someone so maybe it’s unfair to penalize a player for not catching line drives; 3) fouls are ignored because it makes UZR impractical. Impracticality may be the reason for ignoring other things as well. Nobody said UZR was perfect, but it definitely has its merits.
without looking it up
at least in the case of line drives, MGL has found that there is little evidence that catching balls classified as “line drives” is a skill.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2011 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
not sure off the top of my head
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
I read this article trying to learn more on UZR and it say it is ignore. I understand it better when I read RR Blog!
I think if someone doesn't catch an infield line drive or an infield pop fly, they get an error.
I don’t think using UZR means we never look at errors, though they are dubious.
Totally not trying to be a dick,
but English isn’t your first language, right? Where are you from? There is an international presence here, so it’s totally welcome.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 21, 2011 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Damn
All this over the signing of a utility infielder. The trade for sanchez was borderline good, the Chen signing was completely fine, the broxton signing could end up great… And we sign the wrong backup infielder and u make all these judgements? Come on will there are blatantly obvious strides that this organization has made lately and we are in a legitimate position to contend in the next year or two. Ya I wish we woulda signed someone else but 200 at bats of yuni will not push me over the edge.
by LimaTime10 on Dec 21, 2011 1:39 AM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Your missing the point...
It’s a microcosm of the disaster that is GMDM. If he does this type of move it means he will do larger, more damaging types of moves. Like, I dunno, paying a marginally above average, hot-headed outfielder $12 million per after being sanctioned for PED use. $2 mil for Yuni now is just rubbing it in our faces. I can’t wait to hear the excuses when we once again can’t keep homegrown talent simply becuz the Royals refuse to pay top dollar for actual talent, but will overpay for no talent.
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Dec 21, 2011 2:04 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Todd Haley says
Tyler Palco is our best option, it’s not like Orton is going to beat the damn packers.
by MVP-Gordon on Dec 21, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Its not the signing that's bad.
I thought Will had made that clear. In a vacuum, the signing is meh. Unimportant, likely forgotten by next year.
Its the thought process behind it.
Its that the front office identified a position of need that wasn’t actually a position of need(again) and filled it with a player that is not as good as other options and, just as importantly, payed that not-as-good player MORE money than the better players received.
The reaction to this signing has nothing to do with the signing and everything to do with the thought processes that lead to this signing. To speak metaphorically this signing is a brick. It’s small, it can’t really stop anything and on its own says nothing. However its just the newest layer in a wall of DM signings, moves and trades that all scream one thing: Dayton Moore cannot properly evaluate and compensate Major League talent.
Even worse, while that wall is imposing and probably blocks the Royals chance of ever being very successful, it is a ramshackle wall. The bricks jut out and are pushed together in every which way. The bricks form a wall, but have no relation to each other. The only thing worse than a wall is a wall in which its clear the builder has no direction, no purpose, no real plan, and again the brick of the Yuni signing merely reinforces this.
Look at all the moves this offseason(we’ll start on Oct 11):
1. Royals claim Aaron Laffey off waivers. Small, pointless move. Laffey does nothing and gets released a few months later. Why even bother to claim him and pay his contract? And as we’ll see later, that roster spot becomes important.
2. Trade Melky for Sanchez. In a vacuum, again a mediocre deal. Royals probably got the better end of this thanks to Melky being primed for regression. But just a few weeks earlier Dayton Moore had fired Bob McClure because the pitchers couldn’t throw enough strikes…then goes and trades for a pitcher who cannot throw strikes. (This scenario seems to be a personal favorite of Dayton’s since he hired Seitzer, made a big deal about OBP, then gave him Ankiel, Yuni, Failcouer and Melky)
3. Sign Broxton. On its own, again, a meh deal. Possible bounce back candidate and the FO is talking about making a very good pen to shorten games for their starters. Makes sense, small market teams need to think outside the box. What doesn’t make sense is signing Broxton, saying you want a super pen, then trying to trade the guy who is likely your best reliever.
4. Waiving Bianchi. Now at the time. It may not have been a bad idea. But as we’ll see, this is a text book example of DM not having a clear plan to follow. Also keep in mind that it’s a day late. Had Bianchi been waved a day earlier, the Royals would not have needed to do the next part to free up a spot on the 40 man roster. Instead they waited and that “forced” their hand for the next part.
5. The Yamaico trade. Again in a vacuum, not bad. But consider, at this point that if Bianchi had been waived a day earlier that this trade is not necessary for the next point. Also remember the Laffey claim earlier? Yeah he’s let go three days after this. Again not in time to free his spot on the 40 man roster. Also the Royals go from having one addressable weakness(LHR) to two(LHR and a utility man).
6. Acquires Cabral, then flips him to the Yankees for $50,000. Just why? We’ve heard about the team needing a lefty reliever, and there were several good lefties in the draft. Instead we took a guy and flipped him for the equivalent of having the Yankee’s stock our pop machines for 3 years. And apparently that $50,000 was important enough to force trading away the clubs last MLB ready utility man, which forces the next move.
7. Signing Yuni. and getting here encapsulates all the bad things about Moore.
He over pays for guys that aren’t as good as other options.
He has terrible timing, waiting to waive Bianchi til after it would have done some good.
He doesn’t have a clear, productive plan. Think about it this way: Both Yamaico and Bianchi would have made league minimum next year. Either would have served as a decent utility guy. We got rid of them for 2 lottery tickets that won’t pan out and $50,000 basically. In their stead, through bad decision making we signed Yuni for $2 million. Yuni costs basically $1.5 million more to provide the same or likely worse performance.
and just a reminder Chris Capuano, who is likely a better pitcher than Bruce Chen, could have been signed for $1.5 million more than Chen got.
So we likely downgraded our team at TWO positions, all because Dayton Moore sucks at planning.
That’s why this deal sucks. Because its a fucking iceburg. On the surface its small. But underneath lies a whole mountain of evidence and moves and incompetence that hurts this team for more than people realize.
"We don’t have guys with a long history of being effective in the seventh and eighth innings."
~Trey Hillman, master of understatements.
by RoyalPug on Dec 21, 2011 2:30 AM EST up reply actions 28 recs
I tend to disagree on a lot of those points
You say the front office identified a position of need that actually wasn’t, talking about utility infielder. In what way was that position accounted for? Chris Getz as the utility infielder does not do the job. Jeff Bianchi just had an ops of .654 as a 24 year old in AA and all scouting reports suggest he is barely average with the glove… thats not a great option. Yamaico Navarro makes some sense, but there were serious questions about his attitude and work ethic, not to mention whether he could actually play short or not, so I see no fault in trading him. You say either Navarro or even Bianchi would have been a decent option? By those standards, so is Yuni.
1) We’re really splitting hairs if we are using a claim and release of an average left handed reliever as evidence for anything.
2) We sold high on Melky and picked up a legit #3 who has been a minimum 2 WAR guy when healthy, and has the strikeout rates to suggest top of the rotation potential. Throw in a guy that projects as a possible left handed reliever, and that is a good trade in my opinion, especially when you consider that Cain will most likely provide us the same value as Cabrera would have.
Are you saying that because Moore fired Mclure over the walk issue, that we should only go after guys with amazing BB/9 rates? Whether Mclure is here or not makes no difference in the trade. Sanchez was acquired because he was a significant return for what we were offering, fit a need on the team and has the potential to become a good starting pitcher.
3) What is your point here? We slightly overpaid for a guy that looks like a nice bounce back candidate. If he bounces back to his prior form, he will be a steal. But your point is that this signing doesn’t make sense because you have heard speculation that we might trade our best reliever? None of us have any idea how close we were to making that trade or not. And besides, if we want a great bullpen, this signing makes sense whether Soria is here or not. Our front office saying we want a super pen should not hold us back from looking at the market on a guy like Soria. In no way should they be faulted for that.
4 and 5) you talk about these two like they have some surefire connection. Maybe 1 )the FO just did not think Bianchi was worthy of a spot on the 40 man anymore (completely justified) and 2) the FO was sick of Navarros attitude, wanted to get rid of him but spun it like we needed a spot on the 40 man so that other teams wouldn’t get wind of his perceived attitude problem, which would give us less leverage. You keep using the phrase in a vacuum… well in a vacuum, yes, the Navarro trade is a bit peculiar. But the Front Office isn’t in a vacuum… they get reports from all of their employees on everything about any given player, including his attitude, work ethic, willingness to be a utility guy, willingness to improve, etc… maybe Navarro just didn’t have this and needed to go. Complete speculation either way and its hard to use this trade as evidence for any trend.
6) Yes, we’ve heard that the FO wants a lefty reliever. Well, they didn’t trade Cabral just for shits and giggles… obviously, they did not think he could get the job done or consider him worthy of having on the 25 man all year. Do you honestly think we took him thinking he would fit a need on our Major League team in a year we can contented then flipped him for just 50,000 just because? Thats ridiculous.
7) Signing Yuni. I agree that this was not a good move. But I completely disagree that this move signals any sort of handcuffing trend. Each of your first 6 bullet points can be looked at reasonably from completely different viewpoints.
And what makes Capuano a likely better pitcher than Bruce?
Capuanos ERA+ in 2010 and 2011: 102, 82
Chen: 101, 108
So, Bruce Chen or Capuano with Chen coming 1.5 million cheaper? I’ll take Chen.
But, i guess if you squint really hard, those dots are kind of there, and if you draw a really jagged and wandering line, they kind of connect….
by LimaTime10 on Dec 21, 2011 3:39 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I think your problem is you keep looking at the players.
In all honesty the players themselves do not really matter.
What matters is roster spots, timing and money.
1. Laffey isn’t important. and yes it would be splitting hairs to say his acquisition and release were important…if he hadn’t taken up a roster spot and been released 3 days after having an extra roster spot would have been useful. If you didn’t want him, why not waive him earlier?
2. The point being that Moore doesn’t back up what he says. This isn’t the first time he’s done it. Not to mention that yes, we should go after guys with good BB/9 rates since that is usually an indication of success, both present and future.
3. It’s not speculation. We’ve heard from multiple sources from multiple teams that the Royals are clearly shopping Soria. Now trading Soria does make sense, but again goes against what Dayton has been saying. If you want the pen to be your strength, you don’t trade a big part of that. That would be like the Rangers saying they want to hit a lot of home runs then actively shopping Hamilton. Just doesn’t make sense.
4 and 5. They aren’t necessarily connected in Dayton’s mind, but that’s the problem. The GM should know when the rule 5 draft is. He should know to clear space so they can either hide guys or pick up new ones. Releasing Bianchi when he did shows he either didn’t care or just forgot. And if he was thinking of possibly making a move, then why not ensure a spot was open? But he didn’t, so in all likelyhood he ended up having to make another, faster move to free up a spot. And if the reason the team traded Yamaico was because of his attitude, why bring in Betancourt, a player with noted attitude problems? Also here’s a question: Aviles, Yamaico, Gordon, and Kila, amongst others, have all been reported as having attitude problems during their tenure with the Royals. All have also been jerked around, and otherwise reported as being very good natured with other teams and prior to being jerked around. This is starting to strike me as a person who complains that everyone they date is a jerk. Maybe, but maybe the problem isn’t the other people.
6. Cabral was likely never going to be the lefty releiver for the Royals. But there were several other players available who were well thought of that the Royals could have chose instead. But the plan was clearly to take Cabral and trade him. In which case that particular deal DOES MAKE NO SENSE. Especially because doing it, due to not releasing Laffey and Bianchi earlier, required making a trade. and because it had to be a trade, it had to be someone with some value. But it couldn’t be a huge deal because the other team would have wanted time to think. So they had to trade someone with value, but who wasn’t(at the time) important. So Yamaico.
7. Indeed, from another viewpoint they don’t seem interconnected. Except that some of them interfere with parts of the others. If 1 or 4 happens earlier, then 5 never needs to happen. If 6 isn’t planned, 5 doesn’t need to happen. And if 5 doesn’t happen, then Yuni probably doesn’t get signed. As for 2 and 3, they either are signs that Dayton can’t evaluate talent(going after players who are just not good, and don’t have the peripherals to be good) or signs that he thinks that by proclaiming one thing and doing the opposite he gives himself some sort of advantage.
Also here’s what makes Capuano a better pitcher:
Capuano xFIP 09-10: 3.90, 3.67
Chen xFIP 09-10: 4.79, 4.68
Chen is, well probably going to be Chen.
Capuano is probably going to be the next Paulino.
If my options are Capuano and Yamaico or Chen and Yuni…I take the former every time.
"We don’t have guys with a long history of being effective in the seventh and eighth innings."
~Trey Hillman, master of understatements.
Also here’s what makes Capuano a better pitcher:
Capuano xFIP 09-10: 3.90, 3.67
Chen xFIP 09-10: 4.79, 4.68
I don’t think xFIP tells the whole story. xFIP ignores some important details that strongly favor Chen in this comparison like BABIP and how a pitcher is suited to a ballpark.
Chen’s career BABIP-against is .279 over nearly 1200 innings. That’s not a fluke. He’s an extreme flyball pitcher, and flies produce lower BABIPs. There may also be an element of deception, location, movement, or “craftiness” that plays into Chen’s success on balls in play. Capuano’s career BABIP is a neutral .300.
And since Chen is an extreme flyball pitcher, Kauffman is almost uniquely suited to Chen’s profile. Kauffman might be the best stadium in baseball for turning long flies into outs, which goes a long way toward explaining Chen’s 8.7% HR/FB rate since joining the Royals. Compare that to the 21.4%, 17.4%, and 13.6% rates he had in the 3 years prior with the Rangers and Orioles (two of the most homer-friendly parks in baseball).
Chen’s ERA over the past 2 seasons is lower than Capuano’s ERA over the same time span. It’s possible that luck has played a role, but I think Chen is likely a better pitcher for the Royals than Capuano would be.
by kcdc1 on Dec 21, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think xFIP tells the whole story. xFIP ignores some important details that strongly favor Chen in this comparison like BABIP and how a pitcher is suited to a ballpark.
Why aren’t you talking about their SIERA’s? You have said that you think it is the best of the DIPS metrics and is an important part of your statistical evaluation of a pitcher. I did my best to pin you down on how you would evaluate pitchers statistically in the wake of Fast’s “revolutionary” work (which other sabermetricians don’t appear to be reacting to as if they think it is revolutionary). SIERA was mentioned prominently. Instead, here, you rely on BABIP, FB% and ERA with no mention of the metric which you said was the best at evaluating pitcchers. Why is that?
Here are their SIERA’s for the last 3 years:
Chen – 4.83, 4.74, 4.63
Capuano – 4.15, 3.83, 3.60
Chen’s career BABIP-against is .279 over nearly 1200 innings. That’s not a fluke. He’s an extreme flyball pitcher, and flies produce lower BABIPs.
Flyballs also produce more bases and runs.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
Unless they hit the ball softly in the air, too bad we don't have access to
Hit f/x to know if Chen’s has a lot of skill of keeping the batters from hitting the ball hard. The eye test says that he does.
Go Royals!
SIERA is, in my opinion, the best of the DIPS metrics. But I don’t think it does a great job with Chen.
I don’t know why you want to rigidly look at one metric or statistic and then ignore everything else.
Is there a part of my analysis that you actually disagree with, or do you just want to try to make me out to be hypocritical?
I don’t know why you want to rigidly look at one metric or statistic and then ignore everything else.
I don’t. You said that SIERA would be a key element in your evaluation of a pitcher, and then you wrote paragraphs of evaluation of Capuano and Chen, including multiple stats and you never even mentioned SIERA. Seemed odd. I guess SIERA is a crucial stat in evaluating pitchers…unless it’s Bruce Chen. And then let’s look at ERA and BABIP and assume that those are about his skill.
Is there a part of my analysis that you actually disagree with, or do you just want to try to make me out to be hypocritical?
I disagree with evaluating a pitcher based on his BABIP and ERA. You are guessing that Chen has a great deal of control over his BABIP, based on….well, nothing that you shared. Guesswork, I guess. And ERA is greatly about defense and to a lesser extent bullpen. So no, those are horrible stats to evaluate a pitcher by. What we really need to dig into is his WHIP.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions
You said that SIERA would be a key element in your evaluation of a pitcher.
Quote.
then you wrote paragraphs of evaluation of Capuano and Chen, including multiple stats and you never even mentioned SIERA.
SIERA and xFIP are pretty much the same thing (tho I do slightly prefer SIERA), and since RoyalPug cited xFIP, I discussed xFIP. Had RoyalPug mentioned SIERA instead, I would have written the exact same thing, except I would have said SIERA doesn’t tell the full story. It’d mean the same thing, but I assume you’d have no problem with it.
You are guessing that Chen has a great deal of control over his BABIP, based on….well, nothing that you shared. Guesswork, I guess.
Chen has a career .279 BABIP over nearly 1200 IP. I assure you that if you ran an analysis testing whether he arrived at that BABIP by luck, the p-value would be essentially 0.
SIERA and xFIP are pretty much the same thing
That’s not what you were saying in the discussion after Fast’s articles came out. You were talking about how much better SIERA was because it doesn’t equalize all pitchers’ BABIP. You described it as significantly better than the others. And now you’re not even using it to evaluate these pitchers. That’s extremely inconsistent. Changed your mind on SIERA?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
capuano as the next paulino? i giggled...
capuano is just as bad of a signing at that price as bruce chen is
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"The players themselves do not really matter."
What? I was under the assumption that players played baseball, and that a GM’s job was to manage the players and roster. Otherwise, he should have spent millions on sunshine, rainbows, and gumdrops.
Also, you are criticizing Moore from a position of knowledge. You know the whole picture. Moore can’t see the future.
First: the Chen, Broxton, and Sanchez trades are baseball moves that must be examined individually. No conspiracy there.
Second: The handling of the Rule 5 draft is bizarre, yes. But there are a huge amount of factors that go into decisions like that and we don’t know any of them. Things change. Decisions change in other organizations. Again, we don’t know all the things involved in the Navarro trade.
Third: Bianchi’s a career minor leaguer. Your emphasis on him is confusing—his release is just one of many minor league moves that occurs all the time. Why aren’t we analyzing the four players the Royals just signed in this much detail?
Just about the only thing that we can definitively say from the series of moves is that Moore’s talent evaluation is disappointing: namely, that he thinks Betancourt is still good. I sincerely think that most of the moves you mentioned are coincidental and seem weird to us because we don’t know the context. Not saying that we can never judge the organization—it’s just that we have the benefit of the whole picture.
10 recs vs. 0 recs....
just sayin.
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
by setupunchtag on Dec 21, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
It's not really shocking that the audience at RR agrees with the guy who thinks Moore has done nothing right this offseason
by kcdc1 on Dec 21, 2011 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I'm under the impression that most people like Melky for Sanchez
And quite a few think the Broxton deal has a chance to at least make financial sense.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
Ad hominem attack? Arguing bias instead of arguing the point made?
I thought you abhored that kind of thing. What gives?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
You understand that what I said wasn't an ad hominem attack, right?
It’s like saying, “It’s not shocking that a Democrat won in New York.”
Now you’re splitting hairs. Let’s say you post your opinion about Moore’s offseason. And then I respond with “It’s not really shocking that kcdc1 would think that Moore has had a good offseason.” You wouldn’t like that. You’d think that is me commenting on your bias and bringing up my “positivity thesis.” You would chide me for not dealing with the points you made and debating them, but instead focusing on you. I thought you told me we should be debating and discussing the ideas and not the people. Does that only apply to me?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
I wasn’t talking about bias. I was stating a fact—most of the RR community thinks Moore is bad at his job.
If I say Fan A thinks Moore sucks, I’m not accusing Fan A of bias. If I say Fan A thinks Sanchez was a bad return for Melky because Fan A thinks Moore sucks, then I’m accusing Fan A of bias.
I wish you’d think through these things before jumping at any inkling of an opportunity to accuse me of hypocrisy.
by kcdc1 on Dec 21, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought we were supposed to be talking about the ideas here and debating them
Isn’t that what you complain about? Let’s not talk about the person, let’s talk about the ideas. Right? Your words. But apparently your words don’t apply to you.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Wow
You attempt to paint me as a hypocrite, and when I explain that I haven’t contradicted myself, you bring this gem out of left field telling me to debate the idea, not the person AND accusing me of hypocrisy.
If you’re going to accuse me of ad hominem attacks or contradictory statements, please use direct quotes and explain clearly how they are ad hominem attacks or contradictory statements.
He's focusing on a trend
applied to a range of individuals. Furthermore, he is not insinuating those individuals are wrong…so why is it an ad hominem attack?
Even if I had said they were wrong, it's still not an ad hominem attack
I’d have to say that they were wrong because they were stupid or something like that.
It’s a silly accusation.
People agree with who they agree with because they think similarly.
You don’t like it, find your group. Don’t bitch about this one. We’re not in lockstep here, we just gravitate to what we sympathize with.
by Steve Hovley on Dec 21, 2011 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
kcdc1 is here to “play devil’s advocate” (his words) to keep us honest.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 22, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
I wasn't complaining
Just responding to setupunchtag’s comment about recs. Had the same sequence been posted on facebook, the Like’s would have gone sharply in the other direction.
When one is in disagreement with the majority on RR and in agreement with the Facebook fans, that should give one pause and perhaps signals that one should reconsider one’s position.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 23, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Royals claim Aaron Laffey off waivers. Small, pointless move. Laffey does nothing and gets released a few months later. Why even bother to claim him and pay his contract? And as we’ll see later, that roster spot becomes important.
I agree with you here! He was the only one who did noy get his contract renewed by the Royals.
Trade Melky for Sanchez. In a vacuum, again a mediocre deal. Royals probably got the better end of this thanks to Melky being primed for regression. But just a few weeks earlier Dayton Moore had fired Bob McClure because the pitchers couldn’t throw enough strikes…then goes and trades for a pitcher who cannot throw strikes. (This scenario seems to be a personal favorite of Dayton’s since he hired Seitzer, made a big deal about OBP, then gave him Ankiel, Yuni, Failcouer and Melky)
Hated letting “Melky” go! Sanchez appears to be good..Hope the trade was worth it for our sake and also agree here.
Does this all mean…we may get more trade surprises? Because, I’m to the point of no trust with them at this point! I don’t understand there way of thinking? Do they want the Royals to win or do they contribute in making our team a failure?
by Themis on Dec 21, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
he's still a whiny bitch and still not a good broadcaster...
and im sure he’s still waiting for those managerial interviews to come b/c he’s such a great canidate
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
what part am i wrong about?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 22, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
Plus Hands
Have you all forgotten the plus hands??
But seriously, this trade only annoys us because we dislike Yuni. This article makes it seem like the Royals were destined to win 100 games in 2012 until they picked up a crappy backup infielder.
This team is still headed in the right direction. I firmly believe that. Signing the worst player ever (not named TPJ) doesn’t change that.
by Kim DeJesus on Dec 21, 2011 1:40 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
and plus hands also
I had forgotten both. Getting old, with memory issues apparently.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there is a man on base. — Dave Barry
by ChangingSpeeds on Dec 21, 2011 4:45 AM EST up reply actions
I have not seen Yuni play
Starting to get worried about what we got with this pick up and so far not looking good. The majority feel this guy is not worth the effort. Oh boy! what’s next?? I don’t want anymore surprises. This was kept pretty well quite…not even one rumor on this deal was even posted. Now, I can see why.
still there bitching about fanfest?
wasnt there a report that mlb told them not to do it? if thats the case, and we have no reason to believe it’s not….then how is that glass/dm’s fault?
back to reading the rest
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 1:45 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Fuck you
I wanted to get Nate Adcock’s autograph for my 7 illegitimate children you ungrateful bastard!
...and meet Frank White
Never mind…
by Kim DeJesus on Dec 21, 2011 1:49 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
did that really happen?
mlb told them not to do it
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 21, 2011 3:32 AM EST up reply actions
i believe i read that somewhere...cant find it now though
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 3:38 AM EST up reply actions
I think it was more of a "you should focus on the ASG" thing
but honestly, that could have also been a post-facto explanation
we really don’t know
either way...its not a big deal...
and to use the argument that they’re too cheap…when there’s no way they dont make money off of that thing is insane
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If it was reported, then it must have been fact checked, confirmed
and must certainly be true
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
If this trend should continue...
Can we expect the Royals to resign Zack Greinke next year when he becomes a free agent?
uh oh, you have to sign your comments now
-ShMG47
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 21, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
yes, but four 4 times his value.
And as a relief pitcher
by Loose Seal on Dec 21, 2011 6:45 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions 1 recs
Should I suspend this guy's posting privileges?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 9:26 AM EST up reply actions
I'd like to know how he matches up in a trade with Texas
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 21, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Holland and Profar NOW!
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Dec 21, 2011 10:41 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Holland and Profar NOW!
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Dec 21, 2011 10:41 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Twice...
Stupid phone
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Dec 21, 2011 10:42 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Hello, Operator?
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 21, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
There's a hell of a delay when posting on the iPhone app
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Dec 22, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
I May Know
About this in 10 years or so.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 22, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
well, he could be a utility infielder...
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
by buddyball on Dec 21, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That list of players is kind of a joke as well
Lets hold out on including frenchy tell we see how he does over the duration of his extension. We got a legit
- out of Cabrera so there is no reason to bitch about sanchez. Collins has pitched one year in the bigs and didn’t have near those walk problems in the minors. And crow was dominant for half the year as a rOokie. So that list is no evidence or backup for this point in my opinion
by LimaTime10 on Dec 21, 2011 1:57 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Legit #4 out of Cabrera***
In 2010 Sanchez was good enough to be #2 on most teams (#3 on the Giants with Lincecum and Cain). But every other year he’s been a #4 or #5. He pitched 193 innings in 2010, but the other years were 101, 163 and 158 IP. Don’t think that makes him a solid #3 at all. I’m probably being generous saying he’s a solid #4, especially with his BB rates and coming to the AL. He’s established his ceiling as a #2, but given he’s only had 1 out of 4 seasons like that. I’m not sure expecting that to happen is wise. It could happen and I hope it does but I think Sanchez doesn’t really fit the description of ‘legit #3’.
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
by setupunchtag on Dec 21, 2011 11:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
In Sanchez's past 3 healthy seasons
he has averaged about 2.4 WAR with an xFIP right around 4.05. I don’t know the exact average WAR or xFIP for your prototypical #3, but I bet it is right around that. Only in a damn good rotation would the #4 started be averaging 2.4 WAR or a xFIP of 4.05, so by every measure I have seen, he is a perfectly competent #3 starter with the potential to be a good #2.
Hope
this doesn’t come across like I’m a jerk, cause I’m not trying to be. I know y’alls pain as a Pirates fan. This was definitely a smh move for me. Although, keep it in some context. As long as he’s not stealing development time from players that need it (Escobar – I am under the impression he’s a backup right?), it goes down as a bad and questionable move, but a non-impactful move.
The Royals are still gonna ride that great farm system into contention in the next few years if you ask me.
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 21, 2011 2:13 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
theres no reason to believe he'll take meaningful time from anyone....
thats not dayton’s MO…that hasnt been talked about in what he’s said and all of the guys he’s backing up are dayton guys
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 2:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So 2 million for a guy that's not going to have any meaningful time.
We’re at the point where this is good value?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Dec 21, 2011 9:04 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
absolutely not
and ive never said that….i just dont think its as big of an indictment on moore’s ability as most do. sure, he probably overpaid for his UIF…but it is a one year deal and he’s unlikely to take meaningful time…so, no, im not going to get worked up about it
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Nice work, Will.
Will’s post about Yuni made me think. It was finally about to be time to be excited about the future of this franchise. Sure, there are some holes that need fixing. but we’ve got a stellar young nucleus and a supposed gold mine waiting in the wings.
Think about this. We have needs in the starting rotation and I don’t see a great solution to be made. If you have Chen, Sanchez, Hocheaver, and Paulino pegged as starters with guys like Duffy, Montgomery, Crow, Mendoza, and minor league free agent pitcher to be looking at the #5 spot, we’re pretty well handcuffed at the starting pitching level (Which guy goes when we make a stupid move for Gio Gonzalez?). Then, we finally have an offense that is young, but has the makings of being considered fierce. How do you get the young guys to “learn the game” or “look up to a former star”? Just, sign guys like Getz and Yuni to be the “veteran mentor” types. Why did we trade that Navarro kid for a box of Cracker Jacks? He looked much better to me than Yuniesky Betancourt did at any time I saw him in a Royal uniform. I’m disgusted. Now, if we sign Kyle Davies to a minor league deal before ST, I’m done. Seriously, that would probably be the end for me. Bob Davis still has his job, but they got rid of Frank White. Getz got an arb offer. The starting rotation is a quagmire of epic proportions. And, last but not least, Yuni is back! Believe me when I say that I would’ve rather just traded for Mark Teahen to be our super-sub. He’d be one guy I wouldn’t mind having back as a bench player and he wouldn’t be expensive. It’s just ridiculous how these folks at Kaufman continue to look like clowns.
And it is funny to see how the atmosphere has changed. Moore had the fanbase ALMOST convinced that he knows what he’s doing. He was on the cusp of being in the good graces of “casual fans” and those of us that actually care. If I would’ve asked you yesterday what you thinking about the Royals season in 2011 yesterday, what would you have said? What would you say now? One stupid, pointless move like this can demoralize a lot of people. Fans for sure and maybe even players (can you imagine what Johnny Giavotella is thinking right now?). I’ve been talking so much smack about how good the Royals are going to be in a year or two. Now, I’m starting to think I should just keep quiet and continue taking the abuse of other seamheads until we get an owner and GM with a clue. Am I just being negative or does it seem like hope is really that far away?
If you don't expect too much from me, you might not be let down
-Gin Blossoms
by royaldaddy on Dec 21, 2011 2:27 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I am an overly optimistic prick
But I am realistic, too. If the cards fall right, THIS year’s Royals could be darn good. For frick’s sake, they were a 78 W pythag team last year, and they have gotten better simply by again the roster.
Yeah Francouer should regress, No Good Melky…I get it. There are still pluses. Optimism in metrics abounds. I swear.
I'm still optimistic on the Royals in 2013 and realize that Yuni will not seriously hurt the team.
Hell, maybe he rakes and plays decent enough defense at 2B or 3B to get some trade interest and we can flip him for a prospect.
But the move makes me less optimistic for 2013 for one huge reason – it looks like GMDM is making bad choices, in terms of who he signs and how much he pays. If Yuni posts a career year and Chen continues to pitch well and stay healthy, we should start giving GMDM credit for being smarter that the stats guys. But this move seriously calls GMDM’s judgment and his ability to take the final step to make the Royals a contender.
Hope is going to far away if they trade any of our regulars! Guaranteed!
That’s when I will lose all the hopes of the Royals not making it this new season. So far, I still have the hopes..we will do good..with just little doubts on my mind. Please do not touch anymore of our regulars. Going back to Soria, I rather keep him and not get another surprise. He should do better this coming season. I read an article…"the only way they can trade “Soria” is with his approval…because he has a “no trade clause” on his contract. So, if the trade is made..it’s because Soria accepted the trade. Please correct me if I’m wrong. thanks
I can't help but seeing most every bit of opinion in this post as total exaggeration
What in the world makes you think Andres Blanco could provide what Escobar gave us last year or in the future? Last year, in 598 PAs, Baseball Reference has Escobar at 2 WAR. In 654 career PAs, Blanco sits at .6 WAR. No comparison.
About the super duper greatest farm system line… The way you attack that meme, one would think that reasonable baseball minds are making that claim every day, that we have the best farm system ever and can magically churn out a player to fill any need imaginable. So, some calculations and rankings showed that we had an incredible wealth of talent a year back… big freaking deal. It’s true, anyways. We did. But nobody with any true knowledge of the royals uses the “best farm system ever” point for anything anymore. Yes, we had and still have a farm system stacked with good prospects. No, we evidently don’t have anyone good enough or anyone that we are willing to use as a utility infielder.
So go ahead and keep up with your own little personal narrative that this farm system is completely overrated and over publicized, even though the hype has subsided significantly and we are years away from making any real judgement on it.
The third to last paragraph isnt even worth discussing.
Your first sentence of the 2nd to last paragraph, about the roster fundamentally not making sense? How so? We wanted a RH backup infielder to spell our 3 starters maybe 2 or 3 times a week combined… we signed one. Sure, we signed a player that isn’t any good, but theoretically he is a guy that hits lefties decent and can probably play 2nd and 3rd better than short. It doesn’t make sense that we signed Yuni, but our roster still makes sense with him.
So go ahead and keep up with your own little personal narrative that this farm system is completely overrated and over publicized, even though the hype has subsided significantly and we are years away from making any real judgement on it.
so which is it?
by Freneau on Dec 21, 2011 8:33 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
I don't really understand the question
What I’m saying is I get confused about why you sarcastically vent about the farm system, almost using it as an indictment on Moore in some situations.
by LimaTime10 on Dec 21, 2011 3:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
yeah...the constant badgering of moore for the farm system is just odd....
its the one thing that he’s done consistently well in his tenure
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He's not badgering Moore for it
He’s just rebelling against the completely overdone obsession with all things prospect, which manifested itself spectacularly a year ago with the Royals farm sytem.
I’m sure Will thinks having a good farm is great. But the jizzfest that surrounded it wasn’t.
Edgar knows best.
by kcbottom9th on Dec 21, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
that was done by people here....will included...
i dont remember hearing DM and co talk about it being the greatest farm system ever
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Is Will complaining about Moore saying that it was the greatest farm system ever?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
whenever moore makes a move will doesnt like...
that phrase gets shoved into the article…2+2=4
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
It's a snark about the Royals front office, the hype and how it's greater meaning for the Royals has been overstated
He’s not saying “Moore said this and that’s wrong!!!”
You’re not adding things up right.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
its hype created by places like this site and by people like will...
doesnt make any sense for the constant mockery
we’re all very aware in large part due to your articles that every prospect is going to work out…very few around here talk like that anymore so its mocking something that doesnt exist
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
I think you’re assuming a lot about the mockery. What is Moore being mocked for? For only building a good but perhaps overhyped minor league system? That’s kind of how I take it. And I think that’s fair.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
But the farm system was overhyped partly because of the overvaluing of prospects these days.
If Will wants to mock the market for prospects, then that’s totally hilarious.
If Will wants to mock the market for prospects, then that’s totally hilarious.
I think he’s mocking a GM who is a good minor league director, but a poor GM. And that’s hilarious in a really sad and tragic way.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Okay then.
I don’t find it that funny because there are several GMs like that, but those GMs don’t have the farm system DM has, so they’re even worse.
Which is why Will isn't badgering Moore...
The other thing is that some people see it as an achievement in and of itself. It isn’t. None of us are fans of the NWA Naturals or Omaha whatevers for any reason other than we are Royals fans. And yet NWA being OMG stacked is supposed to be a killer putdown for any criticism of the MLB team.
Not you necessarily, but lots of people seem to forget which team they actully support.
Edgar knows best.
by kcbottom9th on Dec 21, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Will's obsession with the farm system is usually what turns me off about his writing.
It’s so ridiculous and pointless. It hasn’t been funny for at least 10-12 months and serves no other purpose. The farm system is started getting the Royals national recognition, and now players from that farm system continue to get national recognition.
Can we sign a petition or something? No more farm system sarcasm.
There's lots to like and not like here
And everybody likes and doesn’t like different things. I like Will’s Royals sarcasm and snark. You don’t. That’s cool. There are other things I don’t like. Everyone should just post what they want.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I cant fuckin stand will's sarcasm and snark
but hey, thats cool. To each his own. Everyone should just post what they want.
we've really missed your presence around here for the last 10-12 months
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Sorry if you took it that way
didn’t mean it personally, it’s just weird when people who are on here pretty much every day talk about “hating” some common trope of Will’s.
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
its just in reference to the the hype the system got last season
“The time is also coming for Mike Moustakas, Wil Myers, John Lamb, Mike Montgomery, Danny Duffy, Chris Dwyer and the K.C. Kids who are drawing bigger raves than The King’s Speech. Said Jim Callis of Baseball America, which ranked the Royals’ crop of prospects as the best in baseball, “The Royals have one of the deepest and most talented farm systems in recent memory.” Baseball Prospectus’ Kevin Goldstein proclaimed it the best farm he’d ever seen. Fangraphs wondered if the Royals farm system was the best of the past decade."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/web/COM1182350/index.htm
The confusion still exists.
We all know BA and FanGraphs and BP loved our farm system. It was awesome before the graduations and the struggles, and even now, it’s still one of the top farms. So what’s so funny? And how was it overrated? Because Will just knew it was overrated at the time? Just don’t understand.
It's cool that you don't think it's funny
We get it. Humor is subjective. Just let it go.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I like to think there are some type of humor that are objective.
Like making Abraham Lincoln assassination jokes. Nobody thinks they’re funny because it’s too soon.
i dont think it is the idea of being overrated
just that a great farm system is not a guarantee for anything happening at the major league level. remember the three Mets pitchers in the early 90s all destined for greatness? that didn’t work out in the bigs, just like the royals talent spread across the minors might amount to nothing in Kansas City.
to me it is more an indictment on journalists hyping unproven talent than a criticism of Moore or the royals players.
This
It actually took me a while to come around on this, but it seems like this subject is very akin to Will’s take on the coverage of Jeff Francoeur by the MSM. It’s that there is an inundation of overly positive and not particularly measured optimism that is obfuscating reality.
In the Francoeur sense, all of the glowing stories published by the Star and sent out by the Royals FO through their employee, Dick Kaegel, obscure the fact that he was the third best outfielder on the team, yet he was being touted like he was the best player on the team while a more deserving player for this title seemed to be largely ignored (at least in comparison).
On the Best Farm System Ever front, it’s not that Moore doesn’t deserve credit for overseeing the assembly of a strong farm system, but so much of the coverage about the Royals simply talks about the players in the system and basically jumps ahead to calling up the engravers in 2014 saying that everything is going to work itself out with these guys. Obviously all of us hope that this happens, but there is a very real issue here that can derail all of this talk, and it’s Moore’s inability to adequately evaluate available Major League talent. Will isn’t making fun of Moore so much as calling into question the narrative that the media is perpetuating in covering these destined for greatness Royals.
Perhaps the farm really is the best ever and can produce enough talent without acquiring anyone meaningful from outside the organization, but the likelihood of this happening is slim, which is why Will keeps mocking the coverage of the club.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 21, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Eco is awesome as SS!!! No trade no deals for him please!
Oh boy..is this was to happen….I would really be an upset fan! Hint who I am…LOL
DM is a mad genius.
What other utility infielder signing would have generated 1000 posts?
Go Royals!
I was doing stuff today
Not on the internet, not listening to the radio, pretty much out of touch. When a friend called me and told me about this, I thought he was full of crap, poking me to get a reaction.
I really did not think it could be true.
I guess the next step for Dayton is to somehow find a way to put both Yuni and Getz on the 25 man roster. Will they go with the more conventional 12 pitchers, leaving a 4th OF, Yuni, Getz and a backup catcher, or will they do the Royal’s patented 13 man staff , and make Getz the emergency OF?
Next they will give Kendall a physical and resign him to be a mentor to Sal Perez. Sal will shadow Kendall while Kendall starts and bats second. Sal gets to catch the day games, soak up Kendall’s leadership, and have a post game class after victories with Lee Judge, who will explain how Kendall won the game despite going 0-5 with 2 K’s, a GIDP, a passed ball and a throwing error.
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
by KHAZAD on Dec 21, 2011 5:38 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
If our goal is objective analysis
then I think we have to acknowledge that this just isn’t that important
Depends what your analysing
Long term franchise health: Minimal importance
Short term play on the field: Low to possibly moderate importance
What it says about the mindset of our dear leader: High importance
Edgar knows best.
by kcbottom9th on Dec 21, 2011 6:49 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
i dont think a move for a utility IF can say anything about the mindset of our leader....
it says that he made a very minor move which probably wasnt a good one
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That's absurd
If we can’t judge somebody on their actions, what do we judge them on?
If this signing is unique and therefore doesn’t provide insight into GMDM’s thought process, how is the Yuni signing unique?
by Loose Seal on Dec 21, 2011 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
the actions that matter are the big ones....
if yuni takes significant PT away from the other IFs i’ll be on board that this is an absolutely dreadful move…i dont think it’ll happen…until it does…not gonna worry…just like i wasnt going to worry about the laffey signing/40 man spot
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
I would hope that Dayton would put more time and thought into a $50MM deal
than he would into a $2MM deal, so I see your point. But he’s gotta put some thought into the decision to offer Yuni $2MM instead of $1M or to offer Chen a 2nd year, or to pay Frenchy $13MM. Many of his decisions have worked out, but it seems to be in spite of Moore’s thought process, not because of it.
Merry fucking Christmas, signed Dayton.
Thanks a lot. All things being equal, I’d rather have Aunt Martha’s fruitcake. Come to think of it, that fruitcake might have better range than Yuni
by Steve Hovley on Dec 21, 2011 7:20 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Hey, at least you Christian guys have
five more days to get something better in your heads for the holidays.
Hanukkah started last night already. Thanks a lot, Dayton
Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!
This is perfect for Chanukah
Because Yuni is the gift that keeps on giving.
by Pointed Stick on Dec 21, 2011 8:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Didn't we just pay $2M this time last year to get rid of him?
by Steve Hovley on Dec 21, 2011 8:21 AM EST reply actions 4 recs
Guess that was to get rid of Greinke.
Bad teammate and all.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Don't worry, It's all part of a larger plan!
Myers + Escobar + Monty to Atlanta for Jair Jurrjens
by sterlingice on Dec 21, 2011 8:43 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
let's try to find some thing good about him
he SEEMS to be clutch in 2010, I don’t remember well. Might be good to have him be a late inning pinch hitter? They have always wanted to be able to pinch hit Escobar last season.
And you know they really like guys who are crazily positive in mood. Those in-house developed-stat that Jin Wong talked about? Smile Above Replacement
I am probably the only Royals fan in Hong Kong?
by Yamfun Cheng Kamfun on Dec 21, 2011 8:50 AM EST reply actions
If clutch was a repeatable skill
And not just dumb luck
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Really? What evidence do you have that Brett had clutch hitting skill?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
You really think
A month of hiiting data spread over a career means anything significant?
Edgar knows best.
by kcbottom9th on Dec 21, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
much better in the definition of clutch situations: the playoffs
he was also better in “high leverage” situations in his career. .321/.394/.508
in over 1900 abs. not a small sample
All you Saber-dorks who use "dumb luck" as a security blanket
Need to go suck on a lemon.
That is a cop-out.
I don't think dumb luck for Brett.
I think mostly coincidence. Maybe the opposition got nervous and he benefited.
So,
In reality, Brett doesn’t deserve any credit for his heroics in the post season, because it was just random circumstance.
When did I accuse anybody of saying Brett sucked?
I showed in two instances, on small sample (playoffs) and one large sample (high leverage situations) that he does have a track record of hitting in the clutch.
Of course he is a great player. That has nothing to do with the conversation
except that it has everything to do with the conversation
Brett was a great player. With this being the case, the odds that he would do well in high leverage situations are high. Great players do great things consistently. Mediocre players do great things inconsistently. And it is shocking when bad players do great things. Brett possessed elite skills, thus he consistently achieved great results spread out in all situations over the course of his career. Maybe he did possess some heightened sense of awareness in dire circumstances, but it seems more likely it was just that he was almost always the better player in the batter versus pitcher matchup, regardless of situation.
by BeauJackson on Dec 21, 2011 7:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If it happens over a small sample of data, then it must be a skill!
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
He has 1900+
High leverage ABs in his career and he performs at a higher level than his HOF career avgs. Higher BA, Higher OBP, Higher SLG. Not significantly higher, but certainly enough to suggest he “takes it up a notch” (see stats above)
This will be my closing statement on this discussion topic.
i honestly dont know the answer to this question and dont have time to research...
but do most players hit better in high leverage situations? it would seem that they might….baserunners dont help the pitcher…the sac flies taken out of the batting average equation would help the hitters, etc
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
that would presume
that all pitchers are worse than avg in “high leverage” situations obviously. I don’t know either.
I’ve never heard that case being made, but its possible.
i would think a batter is facing at least slightly better competition than avg in those situations (no long relief or mop up guys but also no starters) and the matchup would more often seem to favor the pitcher….
Interesting question. My guess would be no, due to the specialization of pitching in that role. Most teams have a few high leverage pitchers who get better than avg results in those roles….just a guess
I can’t wait to see the results of your study Billy.
There is a clear batter’s advantage when there are runner’s on base that has nothing to do with clutch, heart, fire, character or magic fairy dust.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 22, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
That is accurate
……………Overall……….Men On
2009 .262/.333/.418 … .267/.345/.418
2010 .257/.325/.403 … .265/.339/.412
2011 .255/.321/.399 … .261/.332/.403
Mostly negligible except for OBP.
Makes sense, runners moving, fielders covering, fielders playing in. …good call Scott.
Here's a start:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/2458
Appears that batters performed slightly worse in high-leverage situations in 2009. The author posits that this is due to facing better pitching. He says he’s gonna look at specific batters, but I can’t find those articles.
However the numbers for 2011 show nearly identical stats for all situations:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/split.cgi?t=b&year=2011&lg=AL
Brett was undeniably a great clutch hitter
not sure why it matters whether it was luck or a skill or how either side claims to know for certain which it is. it’s a matter of public record. he was clutch. calling it luck or skill says more about the person saying it than about the phenomenon.
by billexgordler on Dec 21, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
no one is calling it luck!
brett was a great baseball player who, big surprise here, didn’t lose possession of elite skills in certain game situations.
but sure, i’ll go along with the narrative that brett and other great players suddenly saw their talents amplify due to the nature of a given game situation.
by BeauJackson on Dec 21, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
i'm glad you'll "go along with the narrative"
because you don’t have much choice. The numbers show that he was a better player in “clutch” situations.
Of course calling someone clutch has become something of a pejorative among enlightened fans, just as “grit” or “moxie” or “plays the right way”, despite the fact that clutchitude is measurable in a way that the others are not. So maybe it’s best to stick with your term “talents amplify due to the nature of a given game situation”. It’s a little clunky, but it won’t draw ridicule.
by billexgordler on Dec 22, 2011 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
It's called a sample size
It’s a fundamental principle of statistical analysis. if you don’t want to acknowledge its importance, then don’t use statistics.
saber-dorks? i can have lemonade with my pop-tarts now? awesome.
when did i say dumb luck? brett was good in all situations because he was an all-time great baseball player.
by BeauJackson on Dec 21, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
didn't mean you specifically beau
…and I meant it in the most affectionate way possible.
by Bronzillo on Dec 21, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Clutch likely exists in some unquantifiable and much less significant way than you would like to admit.
There is little that you can do to prove it though, just like there is little that we can do to unprove it. You may as well be getting into a theological debate with an atheist on this front. It’s a pointless argument for both sides, but it is roughly equivalent to chalking up something to being in God’s plan.
Can we all agree now to never bring up clutch in a debate? It serves no purpose.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 21, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Who's that?
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 21, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions
What God?
I tend to like what Mr. Carlin said on the topic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE&feature=fvst
(maybe the best 10 min of stand-up ever)
Neyer's take:
Now, Betancourt’s not slated for every-day duties. The Royals are set with young players at every infield position. But those young players do need guidance. They need guidance on not making plays at shortstop, not making plays at second and third base, not drawing walks or getting into good hitter’s counts, and not always giving 110 percent. The Royals’ young players will be the most well-tutored young players in the American League at those things.
Doubting Thomas, the patron saint of sabermetrics
Signing Yuni = Bringing In Matt Foley
Yuni: Now, young man, what do you want to do with your life?
Alcides: [ nervous ] I.. actually, Yuni.. I kinda wanna be a SS..
Yuni : We-e-e-elll.. la-de-freakin’-da! We’ve got ourselves a SS here! [ jumps across the room ] Hey, Yost, I can’t see real good.. [ lifts his glasses off and on his face ] ..is that Cal Ripken over there? Alcides, from what I’ve heard, you’re using your glove, not for feilding, but for rolling doobies!! You’re gonna be doing a lot of doobie-rolling when you’re living in a van down by the river! [ turns to Gia ] Young lad, what do you want to do with your life?!
Gia: [ sarcastic ] I want to live in a van down by the river.
Yuni : Well, you’ll have plenty of time to live in a van down by the river when you’re.. [ tries to be clever ] ..living in a van down by the river! Now, you kids are probably asking yourself, “Hey, Yuni, how can we get back on the right track?!” Well, as I see it, there is only one solution! And that is for me to get my gear, move it on into here, ‘cause I’m gonna bunk with you, buddy! We’re gonna be buddies! We’re gonna be pals! [ picks Alcides up ] We’re gonna wrassle around! [ puts Alcides down ] Ol’ Yuni’s gonna be your shadow! [ motions] Here’s Yuni, here’s you! There’s Yuni, there’s you! Me and my buddies! My pals! My amigos! I’m gonna go get my gear! [ heads for the door ]
Alcides: [ runs after Yuni ] Wait, Yuni! You don’t have to!
Gia: [ runs behind Alcides ] Yeah, you don’t have to do that! We’ll never smoke pot again!
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 21, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
It's the dialogue that makes it!
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
I find myself disagreeing with you particularly often
Although, you seem to disagree with me, so I guess we’re both right.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 22, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't get down.
I thought it was funny, too.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 22, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
don't worry ;)
but thanks.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 22, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
$2,000,000 can get you a VERY nice van to put down by the river
by Sweep_the_Leg on Dec 21, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
$4,000,000
This year it was the Brewers that paid him $2,000,000 to leave.
Go Royals!
No! No! No!
Back off my regular players! Leave Eco and Gio out of this mess! It was so funny…I forgot to LOL….
What do you mean here?
They need guidance on not making plays at shortstop, not making plays at second and third base, not drawing walks or getting into good hitter’s counts, and not always giving 110 percent. The Royals’ young players will be the most well-tutored young players in the American League at those things.
Not making plays at shortstop, not making plays at second & third base, and so on!!! What do you want us to lose?
Sigh.
Fans-of-Hosmer – May I ask how old you are?
by hawkinscm87 on Dec 22, 2011 2:33 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
GMDM Plan
1) Sign Ex-Royals who are the laughing stock of the league
2) ?????
3) Plaza Parade
BFIB
by tiquanunderwear on Dec 21, 2011 9:18 AM EST reply actions
In AAA
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 21, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
I could not believe it when I read this in this morning's paper
really GMDM? no better options out there? the only thing worse than this is my record of picking the bowl games (0-4 baby).
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
Offseason addition
Chen ($4.5M) + Broxton ($4M) + Yuni ($2M) = $10.5M
That could be enough to sign a genuinely good player. Add in Francoeur’s $6.75M and you get $17.25M. That’s #1 SP money. And it’s not like these are all just one-year deals so Moore can be unfettered when he goes after big fish in 11 months. $11.25M of that $17.25M will also be on the books in 2013.
I was all for just standing pat with maybe a few very cheap one-year space fillers and then hopefully being in a position to go for it in 2013. But if Moore was going to spend, it really would have been nice for him to spend wisely rather than spending fairly big money on multiple pieces of mediocre filler and surplusage (in the case of Broxton). This smells like the 2009 offseason, not in every respect but in this ugly way.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 9:33 AM EST reply actions 10 recs
Hammer, meet Nail Head
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Dec 21, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yes
That 10.5 / 17.25 number is striking. We all knew some decent money had been tossed around at odds and ends, but seeing added up – the grand total surprised me.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 21, 2011 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Why is everyone getting so upset?
Its just $4.5 million $4 million $2 million.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
You're obviously missing the obvious.
It’s trending down, three gives us our sample.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Dec 21, 2011 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Wouldn't signing one superstar be worth it?
Is there good data on people showing up at the park watch one everyday player. I know the Greinke/Fernando numbers were shockingly low for me, but someone like Pujols/Kemp has to have a wow factor that makes people come to the park more.
It’s clear to me that the Royal’s office is risk averse. They are scared by Ryan Braun and probably more so the Meche deal that they were gifted out of. IMO, the contract that would scare me would be the Carl Crawford contract, because he was a top 5 superstar then overnight he wasn’t, but for the most part don’t the superstar contracts usually work out?
GMDM seems to be making Baird moves in trying to micromanage and keep his job short-term, when, IMO, he should take a gamble on a superstar. Overpay actual talent and pray they stay healthy. One guy could keep a GM in place for years and years. Problem is that the 1 guy left that could be a monstrous acquisition if healthy is a 1B (Prince).
Therefore, the proper move is to lock up Gordon and Hosmer. If he fails at this and they become consistent All-Stars, he will be dead to me.
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Dec 21, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
While we really don't know, it seems like Gordon is willing to be extended
(but we don’t know how much he’d demand)
Hosmer, on the other hand, is a Boras client, and while Moore should definitely try to extend him, I think it unlikely that he’d be willing to do so unless Moore gave him a truckload of money, which kind of defeats the purpose.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
I am just scared to death of Hosmer putting up insane numbers and then...
Signing with another team for a reasonable price.
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Dec 21, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
That's the life of a small market team
Even if you are desperate to extend good young players, you often don’t have the opportunity. At least Moore has done a good job locking up Soria, Greinke and Butler. He’s trying.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
odds of gordon signing an extension by ST?
60%
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
I think I'd put it even higher, but I'm just guessing
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
insane numbers + boras + hitting FA = Mark Teixeira contract + inflation
thats not reasonable
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
shouldve been 'hitting fa at a young age'
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
You guys assume a lot
if you think genuinely good players want to come to KC. The Royals have been bad for so long they are going to have to grossly over pay any genuinely good player to get them to sign.
by gordonrules on Dec 21, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
True
but the big dogs overpay more frequently with less serious consequences. Everybody has to overpay occasionally. It’s the nature of measured risk-taking.
by Rufus R. Jones on Dec 21, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, when was the last time you ever heard of a player taking less to play for KC
I mean, other than last month
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Players always require more money to sign with a team like the Royals
…except when they don’t. And then money isn’t really isn’t so important to players.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
chen did take less money now?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm saying that it appears that the majority sentiment is arguing two contradictory things
1. It will take more money to get players to come to KC.
2. Players often don’t take the most money. Money isn’t so important to them. They’ve already earned millions, what’s some extra millions here or there?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
i think there are several examples of players turning down more money to go to better teams...
or teams that fit where they want to be geographically….
our geography isnt getting any better and its not like the kc area is a hotspot for talent to where it’s the ‘hometown team’ to very many guys. right now, we’d have to overpay most guys….now, that is partially an indictment on moore b/c he has had 5 years and we’re still not a 500 team
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
This has been discussed at length here.
It was tiresome.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 21, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Chen..also said!
We have some unfinished business..we have a young ball club..I believe the youngest in MLB and the guys feel they can do it! Also, said..he wants to be there to help them win and be part of the win.
I wonder what Roy Oswalt would go for this offseason
Not that this has anything to do with what anything in this post
by sterlingice on Dec 21, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
I'm surprised the market is so down for EJax
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 21, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
i really dont think it will be...i think he'll still get huge money
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Wish it would have been from us.
Love Bruce Chen, but his money could have been useful in getting Jackson.
i think we'll have the opportunity to get a better pitcher for the same money next year
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
The guaranteed money for Francoeur and Chen in 2013 will make that harder
along with the various raises other players will be getting.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
true...
a 15/m/year pitcher still shouldnt be a problem though…unless the team is extremely bad this year
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
That depends on how much Glass is willing to spend
And also, it depends on how many holes Moore feels like he wants/needs to fill. We know he likes to sign multiple players to $2-7M deals to fill multiple holes. Is he willing to forget about other holes and go with very cheap players to fill them and just use available payroll room to go after one big player?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Probably not.
But what kind of number are we talking about with Francoeur, Chen, raises, and the presumed 2 or 3 deals for 2012 worth $2-3 MM a piece? I think Glass has already shown a willingness to go to $70 million, and if the team is contending in August or September, the seats will be full—which suggests to me that Glass might even go a little higher.
I really don't think there's any reason to believe that the Royals will be contending in August or September
I have the 2013 payroll numbers in my computer at home. But lots of guys are getting raises, some from contracts and many from arbitration.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Not to mention an Alex Gordon extension.
Yes, the payroll is going to balloon pretty quickly. I’m not sure what it takes to get fans in the seats, but contention probably isn’t even necessary. I would figure increased ticket/apparel sales next season into any revenue projection—which would figure to allow more space in the salary cap imposed by Glass. The one thing I feel sure of is that the Royals 2012 season will be better than 2011 in terms of wins, and that may be all that matters for getting fans there.
there is reason to believe that based on last septembers numbers...
we wont have the typical crash in attendance once the team is out of it, the weather sucks and school starts back again
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Scott
When the player becomes arbitration eligible…is this when..the GM needs to decide to offer contract and if not the player become free agent?
I love this
Rock on, Themistocles!
“I cannot fiddle, but I can make a great state out of a small city.”
by Rufus R. Jones on Dec 21, 2011 9:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
As I stated elsewhere, I want to have sex with a Victoria's Secret model
However, that immediate desire should not determine how I conduct my life.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 22, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
my favorite quote
The Royals are redundant in the areas they think they have needs and starving in the places they believe they are full.
amen, brother
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
That was a very good insight
And well said.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
It's catchy, but only insightful as an overgeneralization.
Sure, Dayton has issues with roster construction, but redundancy in areas where you are set usually is something to be admired. It’s also known as depth.
Yes
But not when it is combined with starvation elsewhere. Then it is just wasteful and inneficient use of resources.
Edgar knows best.
That's nonsense
Adds redundancy when there are holes elsewhere. That’s to be admired? Good lord.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Forget adding redundancy.
If you have redundancy in places where you are completely set, it’s usually seen as depth. For Yuni, this isn’t the case because he’s so terrible and because we had other options. But generally.
I do agree that leaving other holes is wasteful, but redundancy/depth isn’t always the sole cause (or even one of the causes) of holes.
If you have redundancy in places where you are completely set, it’s usually seen as depth.
And if you spent scarce resources in a place where you are set, when there are holes elsewhere, that’s a problem. Adding depth (when you already had good depth) instead of fillin other holes isn’t to be admired. It’s a problem.
I do agree that leaving other holes is wasteful, but redundancy/depth isn’t always the sole cause (or even one of the causes) of holes.
No, the redundancy doesn’t cause holes. But it is a fair criticism that Moore chose to add where we don’t have needs, and ignore where we did have needs.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Okay, I think I'm understanding you.
And you may be changing my mind a little bit on redundancy. But to be clear, what do you consider to be the holes on this team? I think in order to determine that, we need to be at least slightly optimistic because of the unpredictable performance of so many young players. If we were pessimistic we would have holes at every position except LF, 1B, and SS. Slightly optimistically, if the standard is to find solid MLB contributors, I think we have holes at CF, RF, 2B, backup C, utility, and SP. You?
The big holes are in the rotation. If you want to compete this year, then 2B. Maybe C. I think the bench is fine.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
I think the bench is lacking in infielders.
With hindsight, Jed Lowrie would have been a great target. Could of been had with Kelvin Herrera.
Given Lowrie's penchant for finding himself injured,
I don’t know that Herrera would have been worth it, and I don’t mean this to sound as though I was overvaluing a largely untested RP. He does have an insanely live arm, though, and could have netted someone with fewer alarm bells going off than Lowrie (at least in a package).
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 21, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Signing Mijares, who was non-tendered by Twins, fills last spot on #Royals’ 40-man roster and fills last identified need.
That Tweet from Bob Dutton kinda means you win I guess.
even still doesnt though....
there’s been alot of smoke regarding a soria trade recently
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
I'd be happy to bet you a nice sum of money that Soria isn't traded this season.
Lots of rumors do not equal a pending trade.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
i wont bet that bc you're probably right....
but having an extra arm around in a free spot just isnt a bad idea in case
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
Not a fan of the move, of course
And I could never stomach Yuni the first time around.
But I do believe there’s a fairly significant amount of overreaction going on. There’s a big difference between a pointless move and one that negatively impacts the team’s chances of winning. This is one of the former.
Yes, DM has made far too many pointless moves during his tenure. Yes, $2 million is far too much for a utility infielder who can’t hit or field. Yes, it’s absurd that 52% of people at the Star like this move.
Still, you’d think by reading the comments that Yuni is going to replace Moose or something of that ilk. Yost has never used his bench, why’s he suddenly going to start now?
In my opinion we should be deriding DM for making another pointless move and blowing money that could have been used towards a useful piece (see Scott’s comment above). But the whole “that’s the final straw… DM will never lead this team to the playoffs… I’m jumping off a bridge” is over the top for such a non-impactful move. (Rany had some good points on Twitter, but I’m sure he’ll write about the move in his next blog post.)
In no way, shape, or form does this justify this dreadful signing. But I think a little perspective is needed.
by jsolo on Dec 21, 2011 9:49 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Yost has never used his bench, why’s he suddenly going to start now?
Because he now has a gritty proven veteran who has plus tools, tons of experience and has been a major league regular for years.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
Man I hope not
But that would be typical of the Royals I suppose
Because he has an expectation to win
He’s said in radio interviews he will be managing differently, managing to win this season. Which means pinch hitting for Escobar in late innings if he’s in a slump instead of leaving him in there to build theoretical confidence.
you mean like wilson betemit?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
I think they like Yuni a lot better
They traded prospects for Yuni. They took on more of a salary commitment for Yuni. They have always said they like his defense. They didn’t say that kind of thing about Betemit. I never got the feeling that they loved his grit and intangibles.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Sadly, this probably does change Yost's use of the bench.
He’s probably going to start pinch-hitting Betancourt for Escobar in tough situations and after the game will cite “experience.” Not that we’ll hear him say that. Our heads will have exploded already.
Take A Look
Vs LHP:
YB- .275 .308 .421 .729
AE- .266 .324 .314 .638
Maybe if you have to have a long ball, but Yu-Bet is still more likely to make an out.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Dec 21, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
I will take the much increased chance at getting the xtra base hit
over the slightly better OBP any day. Not sure where the argument is, Yuni a better hitter against lefties than escobar. Not much better, but clearly better.
Somebody being a better hitter than Escobar is nothing to be proud of.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
agreed,
though we’d expect Escobar to be on the way up and Yuni on the way down (due to their ages).
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 22, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
and the defense matters too....
i dont want him playing against every lefthander…but if you’re going to give someone a day off…it should be against a LH SP
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 9:36 PM EST up reply actions
Oh and let's not forget
Now we have tons of material for the season. Think of all the jokes we can bring back. If the Royals aren’t playing any terrible players who can we bash? (There’s a moderate chance Getz won’t be on the 25 man.)
But the whole "that’s the final straw… DM will never lead this team to the playoffs… I’m jumping off a bridge" is over the top for such a non-impactful move
I don’t think this is quite what’s going on here. I think it’s more like that this is yet another piece of ugly evidence that Moore and his people can’t evaluate major league talent well. He doesn’t do a good job, overall, of choosing which players to throw money at and acquire. And yes, I think that reasonably leads some/many to conclude that he will therefore not be leading this team to the playoffs. This is not THE piece of evidence which proves this. This is the 87th piece of evidence that shows it (in the opinion of some). And considering how bad Yuni was with the Royals, this is a slap in the face that really stings manhy of us.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
I agree if your timeline is the last 3-4 years
But over the last year or so, most of his moves have been pretty useful, if unspectacular. I guess I find it strange that we’re suddenly discounting all the fairly reasonable signings he’s had recently because of this one crappy move. Off the top of my head, I don’t think DM’s really done anything like this since Kendall.
I think we're looking at his entire body of work
Not just the last year or so. And it’s not like the last year or so provides an unblemished record.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
I definitely see both sides
Bad use of resources and, chances are, a bad signing. But I do think there is some overreaction. But, hey, it’s what this board is for. I don’t think many on here get up in the morning high-fiving the mirror about the Royals.
If we were a rock band, we would be The Skeptics. I can picture it now- raised eyebrows painted on the foreheads, t-shirts with question marks. A guitar shaped like a ?
by Rufus R. Jones on Dec 21, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
I think this is why the Royals need a huge team of statistical consultants that work independently,
And meet to deliver info to Wong, GMDM, and company. I think the interview with Wong showed me something I don’t like and that is the inability for a small team of decision makers to say “No”. You can’t tell me this signing happens in a board-room setting with 10 consultants providing statistical analysis.
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Dec 21, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
The number and quality of statistical analysts is one (important) thing. But I think the bigger issue is how the decision makers (ultimately Moore) use that information. And with someone like Yuni, I think he would look at the UZR, DRS and other advanced PBP-based defensive metrics and say, “no, our people have seen him play. We know how good his defense is. And we know how good he is in the locker room. He’ll be a good mentor for Escobar, a good backup for all of the IF positions, and he’s good enough to be a regular if Giaovetella or Moustakas don’t play well. We need this guy.”
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
At least he would have to set at a meeting with 10 guys proving evidence as to why he is wrong about that.
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Dec 21, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
This would be much more powerful than 3 guys throwing a report or two on his desk...
And hoping for the best, which is what I’ve been led to believe from front office interviews.
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Dec 21, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
True
I have a feeling that Moore sees statistical analysis as a small addendum to the evaluative process, rather than a major, crucial element.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
but if this is the case
what about Yuni passes the “eye test” (besides that dreamy smile)?
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
I really don't know
I’m not a professional scout and don’t pretend to be at that level with my tools evaluation. But I can’t understand how they like what they see.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
He just looks like a ball player
and by that I mean he looks like he plays with his balls
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KC_Satchmo on Dec 21, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Now can they let Getz go already?
I am probably the only Royals fan in Hong Kong?
by Yamfun Cheng Kamfun on Dec 21, 2011 9:52 AM EST reply actions
Yeah, what roster move do they need to make? Is Getz gone? Or do they drop someone with value from the 40 man roster?
by royal_in_cincinnati on Dec 21, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
Getz going bye bye would certainly make me feel better about this move.
I am the one who knocks.
by PhattStairs on Dec 21, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That is the only hope that I have after this move
At least Yuni can hit the ball out of the infield if he makes contact.
by Royal Tiger on Dec 21, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Getz won't get released
He’s got at least one option left, so either 1) he’ll be assigned to Omaha the last week of spring training, becoming the most well paid Storm Chaser, or 2) Gio will have a bad spring and Getz will be starting on opening day.
It's all ball bearings these days!
by CentralChamps20?? on Dec 21, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Getz to 4th OF spot
Gia to Omaha. Yuni to starting 2B.
Ridiculous…yet plausible.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
I don't know if they want to pay his $1M arb. money to him
If they release him by mid-March, they only have to pay him 1/6th of that.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We need a body at Omaha
to block the awesomeness that is Colon
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
Yunie will not be able to play second well, so the Royals will keep Yunie to
play backup 3rd and short and Getz to play backup second. Yes, the Royals will keep Getz on the roster as a backup second baseman, have onlyt 4 outfielders (slighty more playing time for Mitch) and seven relievers so that Getz can backup Gio. Yes, even though no other teams carry a backup second baseman, the Royals will carry a backup second baseman who can not play any other postion. Book it.
Go Royals!
I'll be upset if we're carrying 2 replacement level utility infielders on opening day.
The only way I might like not hate this trade is if someone Getz the f’’ out, if you know what I mean.
MAJOR LEAGUE (The Royals)
Rachel Phelps (Royals Management): I think he'll fit right in with our team concept.
Charlie Donovan (Royals Fans): That reminds me, I was going to ask you. What exactly *is* our team concept?
by Royals Medic on Dec 21, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
You have to be realistic about these things as a Royals fan.
Dayton will have Yunie, and still have Getz on the side.
Go Royals!
why dont you think yuni will be serviceable at 2b?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
Has to make the turn, has to go to his left to get balls up the middle.
He will be a disaster.
Go Royals!
He will lead the team in Polk Points
Book it.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
Consistent Evaluation or You ask and you shall recieve.
Folks are critical when GMDM evaluates talent on “gut feelings”. They are critical when he bases his evaluations on individualized stats like AVG, HR and RBI. It looks to me like he has heard the cries of the doomsayers. If, like most deals on this site are, you evaluate the deal on value, the Royals win. Yuni brings a WAR to the table of .7. At $5M a win, he is worth $3.5M this year. He is a year older, but he is also intended as a part time player so the stat will more than likely hold up. GMDM is using the logic that many of you club him with regularly. It looks like the Royals are +$1.5M on this one.
So, Dayton bought a win, what is the problem?
Yuni brings a WAR to the table of .7
.
How do you figure?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/betanyu01.shtml
Baseball reference lists his WAR rating at .7 for 2011.
If I am reading this wrong, let me know.
I don’t care about Yuni one way or the other, I want to know what he really brings to the table after you throw out all the confusing crap. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is the point of WAR isnt it?
That was his bWAR for 2011
But you don’t project the future by merely presuming that Player X will perform at the same level next year that he performed at the prior year.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
a point of education
So, what is the best way to project what can be expected in the future. And why does Baseball Reference and Fangraphs WAR vary so much?
So, what is the best way to project what can be expected in the future
A weighted 3-4 year average of recent performance, appropriately regressed towards league average. ZiPS and PECOTA do a very good job of it. CAIRO projections are also at least decent. Bill James projections, not so much.
And why does Baseball Reference and Fangraphs WAR vary so much?
Mostly it is the defensive element. Fangraphs uses UZR, which is a good play-by-play based defensive metric. Basebal References uses TotalZone, which is just based on number of plays made.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
By Fangraphs WAR, Yuni has averaged negative WAR over the last four years (also over the last 3 years). By Baseball Reference WAR, Yuni has averaged barely more than 0 WAR (less than .1). And he’s done this as a full-time player every season. WAR is a counting stat. As a bench player, the magnitude of his WAR (positive or negative) is likely to be smaller. So how do you estimate him to be a .7 WAR player?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
Can't be right
I think it’s safe to assume that the less he plays the better he is.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
I'd give that a small tweak
The less he plays, the better the Royals are.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Right. If he plays less his number will be closer to zero.
It might still be negative, but closer to zero, is closer to positive.
by royal_in_cincinnati on Dec 21, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well...if he hits primarily against lefties, which is what the royals said was their plan for their UIF...
he’ll be significantly better…he’s still not touching .7 WAR
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting that half of Yuni's FG WAR
Is baserunning, which is about the only minor facet of the game he is decent at.
The problem of course is that baserunning is hugely playing time dependent (especially for an OBP sinkhole like Yuni). If, as some suggest, he is just an expensive bench ornament then he won’t have the opportunity to contribute his only minor skill (although with Edgar, expect to see him as a PR…)
Edgar knows best.
Yeah, the magnitude of all of his WAR elements will shrink
The negative values for batting and fielding will be smaller. The positive values for base running, replacement level and positional adjustment (as he won’t just play as a SS) will all shrink too. If he’s a 0.2 WAR full-time player (and I think that’s generous), then I think he’ll have difficulty managing 0.1 WAR as a bench player.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
And, FWIW, a 0.1 WAR player at $5.5M per war equals an approximate value of $550K. League minimum for 2012 will be $480K.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Simply moving him away from SS should kill his WAR, right?
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Positional adjustment will hurt his WAR. Better defense at other positions will help it.
There’s no good reason to believe that the net effect will be to increase his WAR.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
I think playing third would help his WAR.
He really does have a pretty good skillset for defense at third.
Go Royals!
The arm, yes
But I think 3B is a lot about just reaction time. I have no idea how good Yuni is at that. And he’s never played 3B in the majors, so who knows with regard to that element.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
And I'm not convinced his hands are all that great.
Regardless of the double plus hands we’ve been told.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Seems like he does make a lot of boot erros
He makes about 20 errors a year. Not sure how many of them are from booting the ball and how many are from throws, but both are problems for a 3B.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
He seems to be pretty quick at just sticking his glove out, it is having to move
to his left that is his problem. Stick him three feet from the third base line and he should be ok.
Go Royals!
Maybe
The counter-point is that if he’s primarily used against LHP, his offensive rate stats should be well above replacement instead of below, so he could accumulate more WAR simply by being used in spots that match his skills.
Do you think Ned Yost is the kind of coach who would limit him thusly?
And I still don’t know that the math works out there. Even guys who are “primarily used against LHP” end up facing a good number of RHP. It is theoretically possible, but unlikely. And it wouldn’t be a fair projection of his likely production.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
switching from 70/30 in favor of righties to 70/30 in favor of lefties, should make a substantial difference
in his overall hitting line
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Have you seen his splits?
They are better, but even against LHP’s, he is by any measuere a very poor hitter.
Edgar knows best.
by kcbottom9th on Dec 21, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How often do utility players face 70/30 in favor of lefties
Find me some examples of players with more than 50 PA’s in a season who have those kinds of splits. As I mentioned elsewhere, even extreme specialists against LHP rarely face more than 55% LHP. That’s just not how it works.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
thats fine...still a significant difference
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
25% lefties to maybe 50% lefties
And that’s only if Yost uses him in a pretty extreme way, working hard to get him at bats agasint lefties. Haven’t seen Yost do anything like that with any player. Also, this only works if he doesn’t become a regular or moves to a shared time situation at 2B.
And for a part-time player with his kind of splits, increasing from 25% against lefties to 50% might add 0.1 WAR. That’s significant?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
But he's got....
POST-SEASON EXPERIENCE!!!
by BlueEyes_Austin on Dec 21, 2011 10:42 AM EST reply actions
I'd be more pissed if it was a 2 year deal
My hopes of spending on a front of the rotation starter went on life support when we paid Frenchy and died when we signed Broxton. I consider this an evaluation year anyway. (Do we have any SP worth keeping and will there be bounce back years from our prospects?)
As long as there is no 2013 Yuni and Gordo gets an extension, I won’t start punching babies. I am putting the babies on notice tho….confidence is waning.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
"He’s very popular in our clubhouse," Moore said. "Our coaches liked him a great deal."
From Rustin Dodd’s write up for the Star: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/12/20/3330163/royals.html#storylink=cpy
This move is clearly an opportunity to add some Latin grit. Question, however: Will jock-sniffer Lee Judge pal around with Yuni? As a veteran, wily, minimally-talented player, Lee is almost required to admire him. Plus, the FO uses Lee to build public support for these average players that the team becomes infatuated with. BUT- Lee doesn’t usually pal around with the Latin players- only the
Gritty White Guys
by Rufus R. Jones on Dec 21, 2011 11:03 AM EST reply actions
Didn't he name Yuni our Polk MVP last time around
or some silly shit like that
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
I will always remember Ryan Lefebvre saying snarkily after a Betancout Grand Slam
“Not too bad for a guy that is supposed to be the worst shortstop ever.”
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 21, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
i wish he wouldve walked out the door with frank....
but i guess that’s pretty greedy on my part
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I remember that also
Lefebvre is the Yuni of broadcasting
I'm very much interested in the process of pitching." -Brian Banister
by Hanging Brainister on Dec 21, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
I'd probably say that too if I only watched 5 of his plays all season and spent the rest of the time talking about myself and the University of Minnesota...
MAJOR LEAGUE (The Royals)
Rachel Phelps (Royals Management): I think he'll fit right in with our team concept.
Charlie Donovan (Royals Fans): That reminds me, I was going to ask you. What exactly *is* our team concept?
by Royals Medic on Dec 21, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, that was awful.
He might as well have told us to shut up and eat our pop-tarts. But that’s not the worst part. The worst part is he thought Yuni was good. Then we paid the Brewers to take him and now he’s a utility infielder. Sometime between that grand slam and now, the consensus on Yuni for casual fans and traditionalists went from “good fielding shortstop with a nice bat” to “terrible range and a bad hitter who can get a hold of one every once in a while.” Odd isn’t it, that the consensus changed when Yuni went to Milwaukee and put up worse, but not significantly worse numbers?
OK, so what's the over/under on Yuni's ABs?
I say 350. I would use PAs, but since he almost never walks the number would be essentially the same.
I'll take the over
Even without injuries to our ‘starters’ I can see us deciding to rest Gia/Esco/Moose 3-5 days/week.
I know this would break last year’s trend, but I have an irrational beliefe that Yost will view uni as a toy he needs to play with.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
While some might say that suggesting Yuni will cut into Moose and Escobar’s playing time is a stretch (or crazed negativism), I think it is possible. But putting that to the side, I think there’s a very good chance that Yuni becomes the starting 2B at some point in April or May. I think Giavotella will be the opening day 2B. But I don’t think he’s very good and I think he’ll get benched or sat down in favor of Yuni, who will ride out the season as a gritty, awful, replacement level player. And Moore could easily re-sign him for 2013.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
I wasn't kidding when I mentioned Yuni as starting 2B
farther up the thread. I’m not sold on Gia either but I’m optimistic about contending in 2013 so it sure would be nice to get a full year of data on Gia in 2012. Which is why the Yuni as starter scenario terrifies me.
Lord I hate being a fan of this team sometimes….
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
Under if Getz stays, over if he's the only UI on the 25 man opening day.
MAJOR LEAGUE (The Royals)
Rachel Phelps (Royals Management): I think he'll fit right in with our team concept.
Charlie Donovan (Royals Fans): That reminds me, I was going to ask you. What exactly *is* our team concept?
by Royals Medic on Dec 21, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
I do think people are, on a whole, overreacting
But I wonder what Sam thinks about GMDM’s ability to construct a roster.
"Yuniesky Betancourt isn’t a bad addition"
Is $2M for a replacement level player not a bad addition? How bad does a player have to be for $2M to be a bad signing? Would he have to be wheelchair bound?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Because this isn’t 2009 anymore. Yuni — still a bad player, don’t get me wrong — is set to make maybe one start a week, not seven.
Is that true? Gia is anything but a lock to be a good MLB 2B. Let’s say he stinks in April, which I don’t think would be a shock to anyone. Does anyone think that Moore would just ride Gia no matter how poorly he’s playing? Does anyone think he wouldn’t get benched or sent down at least at some point in May if he’s had a bad start? And then who would become the everyday 2B? Has to be Yuni. No doubt in my mind. That’s not some extreme possibility which is extremely unlikely. Hell, it might even be a likely outcome this season.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Let’s say he stinks in April, which I don’t think would be a shock to anyone.
you must be new here
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
I'm a Giavotella optimist.
I would not be shocked if he sucked in April. I really could not be shocked at Giavotella’s performance in any one month, good or bad. What would shock me is an extended* period of time wherein he sucks or is on fire.
- About 2-2 1/2 months worth of PAs
Mostly, though, this is entirely too much energy and emotion spent on a backup infielder
Who cares if the Royals GM is bad at evaluating Major League talent? That’s not really important nowadays.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Can anyone confurm....
That Yuni is in the best shape of his life?
Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Since 2005: Royals win% = .4100, Chiefs win% = .4095
Not yet.
He will be in March though.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Technically
Round is a shape
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Dec 21, 2011 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
The most shocking/frightening aspect of this is the sheer unpredictability of the move
Previously we were all able to see the Ankiel, Francouer, Melky signings coming. Now DMGM has added a new wrinkle to his game, and not for the better.
In the past it was like waiting for your abusive father to come home from work, knowing what was gonna happen and having time to steel yourself for the hit. Now, this is a Sunday morning sucker punch from Uncle Dayton.
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Dec 21, 2011 12:02 PM EST reply actions
The single move in of itself isn’t crippling, but it’s such a big deal because of two factors: process and aggregate impact.
The fact that Dayton move after Dayton move after Dayton move is greeted with ‘not a big deal, won’t cripple the team’ is a fundamental indictment of the decisionmaking processes used to evaluate talent and construct the roster. Yes, it’s not that big of a deal that they acquired Yuni. But it’s a HUGE deal that they WANTED to acquire Yuni. The idea that our braintrust thought that Yuni was in any way desirable as a player is the issue.
Second, all of these ‘non-horrible’ moves have small isolated impacts, but have huge impacts in the aggregate. Add up the salaries of Yuni, Frenchy, Jacobs, Gload, Kendall, Chen, Broxton, etc. None of those deals were as big of a deal as, say, the Guillen contract. But the net impact of those deals is more money and more roster spots.
This shows that DM still does not value/understand on-base percentage (the single most important offensive skill), does not understand replacement level, is clueless about defensive performance, and has no idea how to construct a roster. It had been my belief for years now that DM was terrible at the major league level, but that a lot of that had to do with getting ‘his guys,’ treading water, signing veterans to give the fans something to chew on, etc. while the farm system developed. I had hope that maybe once the team was approaching ready and stocked with ‘his guys’ that his deficiencies as a GM would no longer be as big of a deal. I’m finding that hope incredibly difficult to hold onto.
Let's just trust the process.
by trusttheprocess on Dec 21, 2011 12:30 PM EST reply actions
Sounds like your not trusting the process.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
by Warden11 on Dec 21, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe someone said this already
But Caesar Izturis just got a minor league deal, which is the worst part of this for me.
His OBP is on par with Yuni’s, i.e. terrible—though his ISO is at least 100 points lower—but his defense is almost 15 runs better, and he has played 2nd, 3rd and SS in recent history.
And doesn’t Izturis run pretty well too? That would seem to be a lot better deal for the Royals than Yuni. could have guaranteed 750k and probably had him.
I was about to post about Izturis's minor league deal
He projects to be a little above replacement level, can play 2B, 3B and SS. And he’s actually a pretty good defender. And he didn’t even get a major league deal.
Ceasar Izturis > Yuniesky Betancourt
“But who would you have signed? There were no other options! Anyone as good or better than Yuni would have required as much money or more!!!”
Wrong.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
He wouldn't come to KC though, no free agents do!
/code
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
I also really liked Ronny Cedeno and Andres Blanco
Both good defenders. I think Cedeno has some pop too. And both young and cheap.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
This is so fucking stupid
what a fat worthless fuck
He's probably our power off the bench
We probably signed him for his 9th inning bases loaded hitting ability.
by WestCoastRoyal on Dec 21, 2011 1:03 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
As much as I hate to say this, Yuni at least brings a little pop to the plate with his bat...
You know, compared to the likes of Chris Getz. He’s usually our only PH in the 9th anyway because Ned’s already used everyone else pinch-running for Butler.
MAJOR LEAGUE (The Royals)
Rachel Phelps (Royals Management): I think he'll fit right in with our team concept.
Charlie Donovan (Royals Fans): That reminds me, I was going to ask you. What exactly *is* our team concept?
by Royals Medic on Dec 21, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
On the plus side, YB makes hilarious faces.
by OnixConcepcion on Dec 21, 2011 2:04 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
a mariners fan...clearly
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
The real question here is,
are there going to be Yuniesky Betancourt Writes Home From Camp posts?
Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so.-Bertrand Russell
by Dr. van Strijcker on Dec 21, 2011 3:42 PM EST reply actions
no time...duh...
he’s going to get 600 PAs
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
How many PA's do you think he's going to get?
Go out on a limb. Think he’s pretty certain that he’s just going to be a bench guy who maybe gets 150 PA’s?
Think there’s no reason to think there’s a risk that he fills a quite possible 2B void? Is that just anti-Moore or anti-Yost lunacy?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
150 assuming no major injuries....
probably closer to 200 though…guys will get dinged up and miss 2-3 games here and there.
i think they’re going to give giavotella a fair shot.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
You've been pretty clear that you think Gia will fail
Not that you think it is guaranteed, but you think it is likely. Let’s say he performs as you think he’ll perform. Do you think they’ll let him stink up the joint for three months? Even if it is that long, that’s three months for the Royals to play someone at 2B. Who do you think it will be? Do you think they’ll make Getz the regular, everyday 2B and pass Yuni over? Really?
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
i dont think he's a replacement level guy like he showed last year...
i think he’s probably somewhere in the getz 1 win range….and yes…if thats what he’s doing…and thats not the reason were not in contention, i think he should play pretty much the entire year
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
if thats what he’s doing…and thats not the reason were not in contention, i think he should play pretty much the entire year
When you say “should” do you mean you think that is what the Royals would likely do? I don’t know. They usually don’t like to stick with Getz-level failure for a whole season. They certainly didn’t with Getz. And I think they like the backup option (Yuni). And I don’t think they are in love with Gia and expect great things from him. They don’t like his tools and probably expect failure (as they did with Kila). I don’t think it will take much more before they punt. And then in comes Yuni!
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
they had a young guy ready to replace getz....
wont be teh case this year unless colon starts tearing it up
and getz did get almost 700 PAs over two years where he was hurt a large chunk of the time
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think all Moore cares about is young guys
Getz was benched last season after sucking for half the season (and sharing time before that with Aviles).
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
I would be sort of shocked if he got anything less than 200
Managers almost always seem compelled to start players the GM has shelled out cash
And don’t forget Melky was only paid $1.25 million last year.
batter nine you sucky
melky was also tearing it up from day 1...
and didnt have a better option on the roster to play
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, we need this
Of course when he eventually becomes the starting 2B, the debate won’t be about how many PA’s he should get. It will be some few arguing how this really isn’t that of a move. You know, he isn’t so awful at 2B. Sure he’s bad, but not horrendous. And he has some pop. It’s not a great move to make him the everyday 2B, but it’s not the end of the world.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
oh...that'll be a fucking awful move...
call me out on it if i say anything but
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 21, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
It's a real risk of this signing
The Royals 2B situation is anything but set. It looks very fluid to me.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
If Giavotella fails to secure 2B,
I think we’re faced with something like a platoon of Getz and Yuni at 2B. Not a normal one, because Getz has a reverse platoon split. Maybe:
Getz at 2B against LHP and some RHP
Yuni at 2B against (some) RHP, at 3B against LHP, and giving Escobar days off.
by moregritplease on Dec 21, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
1137 posts already about a utility infielder Dayton got off the scrapheap.
Priceless.
Go Royals!
they signed someone for the minimumn after they signed Yuni for $2 million?
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
What does everyone think of our most obvious in-house alternatives?
Irving Falu and Lance Zawadzki? Am I missing anyone? I thought of Arias, but dismissed him.
My opinion—I think Zawadzki’s bat is a little better than Falu’s, but Falu’s defense is probably a little better on account of his better speed/athleticism. No idea about hands, consistency, or arm. All I know is I’d rather have one of them than Yuni.
I think they are crap
But there are/were other cheap alternatives. Many mentioned already, like Izturis, Blanco, Ojeda. Cheap and as good as Yuni or better.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely.
How do you feel about Ronny Cedeno? Not sure how much he would cost, but his offense stacks up against Yuni and his defense is probably around average at SS. Has had very little time at 2B or 3B, but the Fans Scouting Report on FanGraphs says his arm is pretty good, at least.
I like Cedeno
Certainly much better than Yuni. Don’t know if he’s cheaper. Might be. Don’t really know for sure.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 21, 2011 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't Zawadzki leave?
I thought he was granted free agency a couple months back.
I saw Zawadzki a few times and was not impressed.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 21, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
I'm honestly not sure.
I know he’s still on the 40 man roster at MLB.com. I think Zawadzki has some potential because he’s a switch hitter and had a great spring last year.
May the Good Lord help us all
Yost is going to give Yuni some of Escobar’s playing time, which Esky has earned, and some of Moose’s and Johnny G’s, who need all the practice and experience they can get RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
This might well be Dayton’s dumbest move ever.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
how quickly we forget
and, of course, part I:
Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
My Twitter feed.
Before getting tweaked, read up on regression.
by Matt Klaassen on Dec 21, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
But at least Dayton didn't bring any of those guys back
after having sucked donkey dongs for a full season.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
I know I don't post here often anymore, but I do still read often
Anyways—over at the Sporting KC blog, we were just talking about how SKC has totally overhauled a number of clutch positions in their starting lineup, even though they made it to the conference championships this year. I think Gooch said something in the Star along the lines of, “You’d expect a conference runner up to do more tailoring and tinkering rather than a full overhaul.” And the Sporting GM, Peter Vemes, is considered to be pretty damn good at his job.
I hop over here, see that GMDM has re-signed Yuni for $2 mil, and, in the context of all the other moves he’s made, which, with the exception of the Sanchez trade, look exactly like the sort of tinkering and tailoring you’d expect from a team that had just won a pennant and just needed another piece or two to compete.
But no. The Royals finished 10 games under .500, and they have a giant hole in the lineup at 2b (Gio may be the answer, but sure as hell know that Getz isn’t), a possible hole in RF if Frenchie reverts to his usual self, and Moore’s moves are mostly to add to their inane 8-man bullpen and sign the worst backup utility infielder possible at 3 times the going rate for backup utility infielders.
Moore could have done way more so far to help the roster, especially in the rotation (Roy Oswalt’s willingness to sign a one-year deal meant Moore should have sent an offer to Oswalt’s agent, like, yesterday), but instead is content to bring back PR-disaster re-treads who aren’t going to help the team win.
The Royals may indeed win some pennants with some of the players Moore acquired. But only if someone other than Moore is actually running the organization.
Baseball and soccer aren't comparable.
Vermes’ job is easier in some ways. The evaluation of players is not so dependent on statistics in soccer, which I think would be a big reason why the market would not be consistent for any one player. In a lot of ways, soccer evaluation is much more complex, but that also leads to inconsistency in the market. It seems that there are very few cases of players that are in high demand by a lot of teams (in the MLS especially). Something that I think proves this point is how the MLS is so accommodating to foreign players. I read about how a player from (I think) the Sounders was sent to Finland or Sweden or something so he could be closer to his family. This tells me that the market is more fluid, replacements are easy to find, and there really are no ways to measure performance as well as baseball. Sure, goals and assists – but the eye test will (and should) always rule in soccer.
Well, yeah, its part apples and oranges
No game lends itself to statistical analysis like baseball does.
But the concept holds true across most sports, I think—winners are more likely to tinker rather than mess with success, while losers need to consider bigger moves. Vermes has the cojones to actually make big moves that help his team, while this offseason Moore has been content to basically tinker, and even then, it has been to significant detriment.
Put differently—Moore is treating the 2011 roster like it will compete for a pennant in 2012. If that is the case, it is only because the AL Central is so staggeringly awful than because of the talent Moore is signing this offseason.
(And, to be clear, I do expect the Royals to actually perform closer to .500 this year because all of its best players will be gaining more experience. But I still maintain that the Royals will never win the worst division in baseball under Moore’s leadership.)
My main point was that it is easier for Vermes to make big moves. Getting Bobby Convey turned out to be pretty easy, and we won’t have to pay him quite as much.
Getting Convey was easy because San Jose HAD to trade him
It had little to do with it being soccer—teams are eager to trade players who are locker room cancers regardless of the sport.
You really are a fine writer, Will. A pleasure to read. It seems effortless.
But I think there’s a rhetorical flaw in your argument: You’re criticizing Moore for ignoring the details; not sweating the small stuff. But your analysis is painted with the broadest brush imaginable: He can’t field; he can’t hit. Remember your Beane: The Royals can’t afford players without warts, so focus on a player’s strengths and put him in a position to leverage those strengths. Yuni has good power for a utility infielder. He has a good arm that will play anywhere in the infield. If he’s playing 2B or 3B his limited range will be mitigated by Escobar’s excellent range. He hits lefties passably and in those weekly starts for Moustakas Yost will have a pretty dangerous bat on the bench to face any right handed reliever late in games.
My point: i think the details of this transaction actually make it look better than it does otherwise. If you reduce Yuni to “can’t field; can’t hit” then there’s no more analysis to do. I don’t know, maybe sometimes that’s all the analysis a player needs; but I doubt that’s true for Yuni, and it’s certainly not true for a tactical acquisition like this one.
The move is such a visceral affront that it’s nearly impossible to analyze. And our baggage here on this particular player is immense and overpowering. It’s another reminder that Moore looks at the world very differently than many folks who post here.
by billexgordler on Dec 21, 2011 11:50 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
I think a more detailed analysis of a player who is as known a quantity as Yuni is absolutely pointless here.
We all know who he is.
And Yuni is virtually all wart.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 22, 2011 12:34 AM EST up reply actions
Although I disagree with you for the most part, I rec'd this because it is a good argument.
Certainly more effort could be put into an analysis, but we already know who Yuni is. At the same time, you’re right that analysis is impossible for us because of our bias. I think cooler minds have agreed that this deal isn’t that bad – a little too expensive and too many uncertainties, but not that bad.
One thing I keep coming back to is wondering how much Dayton explored other options. Did he expend much effort trying for some of the alternatives and get shot down? Obviously, those players do not aspire to be a utility infielder, especially for the Royals. I know it would have been hard to sign another player, but again, I just keep wondering if Dayton did his due diligence or just took the easy route and the easy sign.
Great point
I think this is why it’s such a painful signing, because…Him? Really? You guys are scouting all the potential utility infielders in baseball and He’s who you come up with? It’s dispiriting. But this is how it’s going to be with this regime. It just is. I’ve been saying it for years (admittedly, saying this isn’t all that good for discussion because it’s kind of an end of a line, but…) but this administration does not think about building teams and value and assets like most of us here do. They don’t and they never will. But I do think that they’ve thought of and explored all of the other options that we’ve considered and then some. And after doing that research, they looked at all the facts and STILL made the decision that very few of us here would have. That’s what’s hard about moves like this and Francouer and Melky. They’re looking at everything we’re looking at and drawing a completely different conclusion.
Klaasen made some really interesting concessions in his last fangraphs piece, mainly that good baseball teams are usually comprised of a mix of great players, savvy pickups, and total head-scratchers. If every good team is making bad moves, then either a) those bad moves are simply the cost of doing business in today’s MLB or b) the moves we call bad actually aren’t that bad. I.e., we have to lower the bar when evaluating many of these moves.
I guess what I’m saying is that no matter how much we believe that “bad” is an absolute term, it’s not. It’s relative.
by billexgordler on Dec 23, 2011 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
Sure.
We don’t talk about this much, but everyone should realize that Dayton and his staff looked at every option. The problem is not that they aren’t thinking about all the alternatives, the problem is that they’re picking players who we would not pick. The gray area for me is whether they’re inquiring about everyone on their board, or if they learned that Yuni had some other suitors and they decided to pull the trigger rather than risk losing him. Obviously, RR readers would hear Yuni had other suitors and our first response would be “Why?” Our second response would be, “Doesn’t matter to us because he’s our least favorite alternative.” So my hope is that they weren’t pushed to pull the trigger on Yuni just because some NL team(s) were interested in him. And if they did do that, then it’s for the wrong reasons—they know him, he’s a happy dude, they think his work ethic is good, etc. The only concerns should be past performance, expected performance, and the player not being a total f*** up.
by hawkinscm87 on Dec 23, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
Can't imagine an analysis of Yuni which leads to this being an ok signing
He’s an exceptionally poor hitter and fielder. Genuinely awful. Some have responded to this with, “well utility players aren’t genuinely good players.” I’m not saying he’s merely less than good. He’s awful. He’s not good enough to be a MLB utility player. He projects to be at or perhaps a little above replacement level. The average schlub called up from the minors would be as good as Yuni.
Some say that he’s a decent signing because he can play SS, 2B, and 3B. This is not uncommon. Many players are available who can do that. And they can play as well as Yuni or better for less money. Augie Ojeda is still available, and better than Yuni. The same is true of Ronnie Cedeno and Andres Blanco. But who knows how much they’d cost. I doubt it would be $2M. Cesar Izturis projects to be better than Yuni and he signed a minor league deal. This makes no sense. he was a fairly expensive option who is worse than other, better, cheaper options.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 22, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
I've been going 'round and 'round with Robert Ford on Twitter about all of this for the past few days
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 22, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
I think for a lot of people who think this signing is ok, it comes down to the fact that they don’t think Yuni really is awful. They think he “has some pop,” “can hit lefties,” and has “defensive versatility.” His light “pop” mixed with the rest of his hitting adds up to a genuinely awful hitter. The fact that he’s not quite as awful, but still bad against lefties is overrated as he’ll still likely face more RHP than LHP. And his defensive versatility is about as easy to find as fountains in KC.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 22, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
It's not that i don't think Yuni really isn't awful
I think he’s a dreadful ML starter. Dreadful. And I’ll wince nearly every time he’s at bat. But I think the difference between him and the next solution and the costs between the two are a rounding error, prospectively. Any one player’s projections have very wide error bands, especially when the alternatives are either a) very old, b) coming off significant injuries or c) very inexperienced AND 1) we’re talking 200 ABs, at the high end, in theory. As for the money, as tempting as it is to sum all the contracts we don’t like and offer that money to a top-tier starter, I think it completely misunderstands the elasticity of the Royals major league budget. I’m confident that if Moore needed $15M to land a top tier starter (which, what starter would we actually want who might sign for that much?) he could get it.
by billexgordler on Dec 23, 2011 12:26 AM EST up reply actions
AND 1) we’re talking 200 ABs, at the high end, in theory.
Given the Royals very uncertain situation at second base, I don’t think we’re talking about 200 AB at the high end. I think there’s a good chance that Giavotella isn’t a starter for the full season. That gives Yuni the opportunity for many more AB’s.
s for the money, as tempting as it is to sum all the contracts we don’t like and offer that money to a top-tier starter, I think it completely misunderstands the elasticity of the Royals major league budget. I’m confident that if Moore needed $15M to land a top tier starter (which, what starter would we actually want who might sign for that much?) he could get it.
So far, Moore is right in the team payroll range that he mentioned in that blogger’s night at the K. I don’t see good reason to believe that Glass would ok a massive jump over for that by $15M.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 23, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
A jump in payroll like that is not going to happen.
I think Glass would do it, but he learned from 2009. He’s not going to go up in the 70s again until there are butts in the seats, and the only thing that will get butts in the seats is winning.
by hawkinscm87 on Dec 23, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know what R Ford's argument is, but I think the best one for Yuni is
Melky and Francouer. We thought those were unhelpful and terrible signings, respectively, and we were wrong on both (so far). Maybe it was just lucky on both counts, but I still think it’s a decent argument that in GMDM’s last two major ML acquisitions, the score is RR 0, GMDM 2.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 22, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
He thinks the situation is different than before,
and that Yuni will only see 100-150 PAs while Escobar is at no risk at all of being unseated. I don’t think any of that is something we can trust the Royals not to do. Furthermore, how was Yuni the best option out there? Cesar Izturis just signed a minor-league deal for $750K. How is having a player who is at least above average defensively not preferable to a person who is poor both offensively and defensively? And yes, I know Izturis had elbow surgery.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 22, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
And I think this is the best retort
how was Yuni the best option out there?
At least Melk/French had prior success.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 22, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
Sporadically musing on the Royals at both Royals Review and Royalscentricity, pop culture at Inconsiderate Prick, SVU at Munch My Benson and on Twitter at Old Man Duggan
by Old Man Duggan on Dec 22, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
There's a big difference between Melky/Frenchy and Yuni
in that we already acquired Yuni once. We know firsthand how much he sucks. It’s the saying “Fool me once, shame on you” writ for baseball.
But is that even a serious argument?
It’s not like the last two major FA signings are all that matter. Two signings that work out don’t mean that Moore suddenly deserves the benefit of the doubt.
You may know me as NYRoyal.
by Scott McKinney on Dec 22, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
No, he doesn't
And even though most here were not in favor of them at the time, I think everyone would agree there was at least the potential of far more upside to the Cabrera and Francoeur deals than there is for Yuni’s.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Dec 22, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
It's just the most "serious" argument I can think of
because there isn’t really a good argument.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Dec 22, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Royals Review
Related FanShots on Royals Review
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- College player makes impossible over the fence catch to save tournament game (Video)
- Security!: Camden Yards guard collides with Royals’ Mike Moustakas
- The Juice: Nelson Cruz matches career high eight RBIs, Pujols stays hot in Seattle
- Benches clear at Fenway as Red Sox-Rays rivalry heats up
- Keeping good company: Albert Pujols becomes fourth-youngest player to hit 450 home runs
