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Moore: in the past there were players that held meetings solely to ridicule Billy Butler.

Nick Scott(Broken Bat Single) via Twitter

over 1 year ago 4-_wil_myers_tiny kcscoliny 208 comments 3 recs  | 

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The older guys showing that great leadership

Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com

by kcscoliny on Feb 10, 2011 12:44 PM EST reply actions  

Would love to hear some names on this one.

I’d bet anything they were guys DM brought in and “stood by” and I’d also bet anything that he hasn’t learned a damn thing from it.

Killing time until time kills me

by EspeciallyK on Feb 10, 2011 12:46 PM EST reply actions  

would it stun you if Ross Gload were a giant jerk?

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by BHWick on Feb 10, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

No wouldn't stun me if any of them were jerks

I just know that there was plenty of stuffed JoGui implied about Billy.

Gload makes a ton of sense considering they were playing the same position.

Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com

by kcscoliny on Feb 10, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions  

stuff

Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com

by kcscoliny on Feb 10, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Based on the "same position" theory...

…I can actually kind of picture a little gathering of Gload, Shealy and Brazel snickering in the corner while Billy forlornly puts on his street clothes.

by kcemigre on Feb 10, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

Shealy may have been even fan-friendler than Butler. He seemed like a great guy when he was with the Royals.

by trauty on Feb 10, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Shealy is one of the few people in baseball

I would actively describe as a “good person.”

WTF, self?

by minda33 on Feb 10, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Jays just picked him up last week.

Minor league deal, he expects to play in AAA Vegas. I’ve got my calendar marked for when Vegas comes to Omaha!

WTF, self?

by minda33 on Feb 10, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

you should mark your calendar for when

Omaha goes to Vegas ;)

The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 10, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

THAT

is a fantastic idea. Although I bet the bf would object to me going on a roadtrip for the sole purpose of seeing a ballplayer. Hmmm..

WTF, self?

by minda33 on Feb 10, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Just make up one of those rules...

So that each of you can have a few celebrities (or ball players) that you can have a crush on and the other person can’t get mad at you for it. Although my girlfriend hates celebrities I think are hot, except Natalie Portman, because she agrees. So that’s your solution.

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 10, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder how many times Ryan Shealy has been

somebody’s “Person.”

One now!

WTF, self?

by minda33 on Feb 10, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I lean towards Mark Grudz

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 10, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah

for some reason his name came to mind immediately

by sfeldkamp on Feb 10, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think so.

I met him one time at the movie theater, and he just came off as really nice. He’s not a big ego guy… and I figure he’s mature enough to not give a rookie grief.

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 10, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

French naval history

is pretty sad.

"Crimes don't pay no one but the lawyers." --Last words of executed murderer Ernest Gaither Jr., 1947

by Juancho on Feb 10, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

The French were the wealthiest country

with the strongest army on the Continent between 1688-1815. The Brits, in addition to getting comparatively richer (partly due to laissez-faire economics, partly due to France’s wasting money on fighting wars), always had a better navy because they had more practice. Their ships were better-built and their men were better-trained; French ships were often crewed by landsmen.

France only defeated Britain once at sea during the “long eighteenth century”: at the Virginia Capes in 1781, leaving Cornwallis without supplies at Yorktown and forcing his surrender.

"Crimes don't pay no one but the lawyers." --Last words of executed murderer Ernest Gaither Jr., 1947

by Juancho on Feb 16, 2011 4:28 AM EST up reply actions  

doesn't everybody dig epistemology?

I’m thinking here of the connection between Aristotle and Aquinas.

"Shot by my own men."

by StonewallPDS on Feb 10, 2011 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I heard he's a huge...

…Patrick O’Brian fan. Loves Stephen Maturin. – TL

"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

by timlacy on Feb 10, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

So it was like

“You know what tonight is, fellas.”
SQUEALS. And some jumping up and down
In unison: “Ridicule Billy Night!”
“Oh, I am so wearing my new ascot for this.”
“We’ll be angry if you don’t!”

Geesh. That’s harder than it looks.

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by LaFLamme on Feb 10, 2011 1:54 PM EST reply actions  

I bet Reggie Sanders is a Dick... Or at least hope he is.

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by averagegatsby on Feb 10, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Emil Brown

Hey, we pretty much know he’s a dick.

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 10, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I am encouraged to hear

That the 2007-2008 Royals behaved like the plot of “Mean Girls.”

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 10, 2011 2:04 PM EST reply actions  

When you are so dominant on the field

you minds begin to wander to immature pursuits like organized ridicule.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 10, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

BAHaHahaha.

This is not surprising, but I can’t believe Moore came out and said that! So obviously it was not anybody on the current roster.

But it could have been absolutely anybody. The culture of hatred toward Billy was quite strong. After he went back up to the Majors in June of ’08, the clubhouse let out a collective sigh of relief.

WTF, self?

by minda33 on Feb 10, 2011 2:15 PM EST reply actions  

sssssssssccccccccccrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeecccccccccccccccccccchhhhhhhhhhh

even the Omaha guys?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Feb 10, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

What exactly are they making fun of?

That he’s dumb?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 10, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe the "crybaby attitude" (IIRC) that JoGui cited him for?

The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 10, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

The guy who said this is out of baseball now, but

basically…Billy was oppressively awkward. He kept trying to shoehorn his way into established social circles. Nobody felt they could be themselves with him around, and claimed that their hitting suffered while he was in town. And they said he was always WAY more concerned about his personal performance than the team.

(Of course, none of this would be that bad, except that baseball teams are like junior high girls’ gym class. Those bitches will get mad about ANYTHING.)

(DISCLAIMER: This is all just stuff that players said, and does not reflect my actual opinions on any player, team, etc. I will not name names, but information referenced in this comment came from players who are not with the Royals anymore.)

WTF, self?

by minda33 on Feb 10, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Considering he was 20ish at the time

Shouldn’t he get a pass for being “socially awkward”

by YouDon'tPhaseMeGobble on Feb 10, 2011 9:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

It's hard to describe...

but it wasn’t a normal type or degree of awkwardness.

WTF, self?

by minda33 on Feb 10, 2011 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

If I remember correctly..

Minda…

Didn’t Billy rent a place in KC and start his own website and start doing the rounds right when he was on the cusp of his debut in KC? Like he thought he was breaking camp with the Royals but didn’t and got shipped down to Omaha right aftrer renting a place? Not sure how accurate I remember, but I can imagine that’s something they all had a laugh at…I would,. Poor guy..

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Feb 10, 2011 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember that.

Very awkward, but I thought it was just arrogance/confidence.

by AxDxMx on Feb 14, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

nothing as fun as jealousy

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by BHWick on Feb 10, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

What if it was John Buck, or Olivo, or Mark Teahen?

I would kinda die inside a little if it was Teahen. Seems like such a cool guy, you know?

John Buck, though? Bye bye, beautiful. That’s what I’d say.

by Justin Bopp on Feb 10, 2011 2:18 PM EST reply actions  

http://twitter.com/#!/justinbopp/status/35781547055513600

@Challenger_KC Yo Mark who was holding meetings making fun of Billy? We’d like to follow up and see how their careers are going atm.

by Justin Bopp on Feb 10, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Not it.

Classic. What was the word you yelled out when you reached the same zone in tag? I always heard it as “My goo one, two, three!”

www.marklaflamme.com/books

by LaFLamme on Feb 10, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Teahan? Nah.

I can see Buck in that scenario, but only because he strikes me as the kind of galoot who will jump at a chance to hang out with the cool kids. Remember when Meche cut his hair? Buck wanted to make that a regular thing. Meche, kind of the Fonzie of the Royals, wanted nothing to do with it.

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by LaFLamme on Feb 10, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok..couldn't be Teahen

Everyone knows you make fun of the Canadian in the room, so I am sure he knows how Billy woulda felt.

by KennyPowers_from_Scout on Feb 10, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

If management knew

Why didn’t they stop it…

I know it’s baseball, and they are ludicrously lucky to be a playing a game for a fantastic living, but workplace bullying is workplace bullying, and it’s not cool.

by kcbottom9th on Feb 10, 2011 2:27 PM EST reply actions  

I logged in

just to rec this.

Obviously, you are not a golfer.

by Kyled85 on Feb 10, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

They forced them into prostitution?

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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 10, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

so

that’s where HoRam went

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by BHWick on Feb 10, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

taking domination to a new level

Viking style….seriously tho, how big of a cesspool is pro/jock locker room culture? Big boys with giant egos, lots of money, media attention, confusing money and media attention as indicative of something truly important, etc..etc…etc…its really no surprise. I put the black mark on Trey, he should have squelched that shit. If Billy needed a comeuppance, it should have taken place in the confines of the managers office. Not from a group of “veteran leaders.”

by Nighthawk at the Diner on Feb 10, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

that's too bad

Billy is one of the nicest (and most accessible) big leaguers I’ve ever met. Almost every night he is outside the player’s parking lot signing autographs and shooting the breeze with anybody that comes up to him. I’ve went out for autographs 5 times in the past 3 years and have yet to be denied by Billy. He’s great with kids, he takes pictures with probably 20 of them a night. Maybe some of the players were upset with him for making them look like asses (I’m looking at you Ross Gload).

by trauty on Feb 10, 2011 2:42 PM EST reply actions  

Look, it's mean

but when you try to trade a guy for Yuniesky Freaking Betancourt, what do you think is going to happen?

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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 10, 2011 2:59 PM EST reply actions  

If Moore knew this was going on

why didn’t he stop it right there? OK, maybe he traded all the Billy-bullies away later, but shit like picking on your team’s best young player should be stopped when it’s discovered.

Just like junior high school. Stop it, drastically, now before it gets worse.

I sure hope Teahen and Buck weren’t among them.

"Crimes don't pay no one but the lawyers." --Last words of executed murderer Ernest Gaither Jr., 1947

by Juancho on Feb 10, 2011 3:39 PM EST reply actions  

No way Teahen was. You just can't talk bad about someone you've attended

1000 Chinese Buffets with.

"If people don't want to come out to the ball park, nobody's gonna stop 'em."
~Yogi Berra~

by TheK-man on Feb 10, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Dayton Moore has recieved some bad information.

It was probably more like, someone was walking by a few players talking in the locker room and heard one of the players say something about Billy, which was passed on through several people until by the time it got to Dayton, it had been embellished to the point of that comment by him.

I’m surprised he would ever make such a comment, even if it were true. It’s not something that you would want to make known about your players, and reflects directly upon Dayton’s own inability to foster positivity among the players he signs.

"If people don't want to come out to the ball park, nobody's gonna stop 'em."
~Yogi Berra~

by TheK-man on Feb 10, 2011 3:40 PM EST reply actions  

I agree that this seems like it's a bit out of context, an exaggeration, or somehow distorted

The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 10, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Really?

No, I actually can see guys getting together just for that. It wouldn’t necessarily be called a “meeting,” though. Probably more like “get together at so-and-so’s house for drinks and Billy-bashing.” It absolutely would not surprise me.

I do agree about being surprised GMDM would ever say anything like that.

WTF, self?

by minda33 on Feb 10, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Moore forgot to mention that HE organized the meeting

Moore can’t use a computer, but he can use a copier to make those signs with the pull-off tabs at the bottom.

Meeting TONIGHT at 8! Talk about Billy’s love-handles. FREE PIZZA!!!!

The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 10, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Free 4th grade math tutoring!

Call (479) xxx-xxxx, ask for Mike.

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by KeepItCopacetic on Feb 10, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't see this

You don’t need a reason to get together and drink, but I don’t see the older players doing this anyway. On off days, they’re with families or taking it easy.

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 10, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think a

GM can possibly be held responsible for this.

Not to mention the fact that many people on this website make fun of Dayton for signing players that are “good guys”

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 10, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i make fun when he makes a big deal about having good guys around

trades away a guy like cortes for pissing on a fence, gutierrez for something relatively minor, but then trades for the wife beating DUIing Callaspo

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Feb 10, 2011 8:35 PM EST up reply actions  

the coach's can

and should. arent they supposed to be like den mothers?

@@@Just assume I forgot the sarcasm font @@@ ... now, if I could just figure out the ### cynical font ###

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by who am i? on Feb 17, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

If this is true and you're Billy

Don’t you just look at all of those dumbasses and remind them that you rake and that they’re Ross Fucking Gload and Blood Clot Guillen? Really?

I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.

by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 10, 2011 4:48 PM EST reply actions  

Billy has 30 million reasons to laugh now

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Feb 10, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly.

I wonder if Farnsworth was ever in on this crap. He seems like the type of total douche that would be a ringleader in this kind of thing.

I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.

by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 10, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Doubtful Farnsy wasn't around until 09

What was he gonna say then that damn chunky kid hitting all those doubles and a few HRs really sucks for a 23 year old

Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com

by kcscoliny on Feb 10, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

wasnt farns allegedly a very nice guy?

i feel like i read a really long article about him

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Feb 10, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

There is a big difference

between good-natured teasing and actual, I-don’t-like-him bashing.

To me, whenever Teahen was interviewed on the radio and Billy came up, he always sounded like it was the former and not the latter.

As for the rest of the team, who knows? No doubt there was some sentiment that Billy was more concerned about his own hitting than the team winning – but to me, that is a completely natural and understandable approach for a young hitter trying to establish that “he belongs” as a major leaguer.

Now, does Billy appear to have a certain naivete about him (at least when it comes to all things non-hitting)? Sure – but that should be the subject of the “good-natured” teasing, not the mean-spirited teasing.

Heh, maybe this comes out as a positive in the long run, as Billy assumes the mantle of clubhouse leader and treats the upcoming rookies the way he WASN’T treated.

"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009

"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876

by loyal2sdad on Feb 10, 2011 6:00 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed

and that’s a nice take, or at least, pretty much my thoughts, as well.

I think that’s a good point about Butler treating people the way he wasn’t; that sounds like a template for a good locker room atmosphere, actually. “Treat Those As Guillen and Gload Would Not Treat You” Sorta be the inverse of the Golden Rule.

"Atheism is a non-prophet religion" - George Carlin

by setupunchtag on Feb 13, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

My dad sat next to DM at the Tiger Club Luncheon last week

and said DM told his table that Greinke called a players only meeting in which he railed on Billy Butler the whole time. I asked my dad for every detail he had, and he said DM specifically singled out Greinke and said it was him calling the meeting and nobody else, and that all he did was bag on Billy. I didn’t know whether to believe him, but this basically confirms it.

by LimaTime10 on Feb 10, 2011 6:29 PM EST reply actions  

that would explain the zack bashing by billy....

as long as billy wasnt harmed long term, this is a good thing. Billy is the leader of this team now and he knows what it feels like….it wont be happening from now on.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Feb 10, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

They must have got off to a rocky start in Wichita in '05 and it carried over from there.

Should make the ST games interesting if Zack pitches to Billy.

Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com

by kcscoliny on Feb 10, 2011 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh

I’d rather not have him suspended on Opening day.

by kcbottom9th on Feb 10, 2011 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

We need the Hansen Brothers . . . . .

or their MLB equivalent……I’ve always thoughts Zack’s schtick was way more Aspergers than sly like a fox, but maybe he was kind of a shit. I guess its tough to read sometimes, with that flat affect, etc….its hard to know if he’s got a disorder on the autism scale, he’s a conniving arch sonofabitch, or maybe a bit of both.

by Nighthawk at the Diner on Feb 10, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Dem boys is all growed up since last I seen um....

SLAPSHOT Bros were much more entertaining with their goofy menace…..menace is much more palatable with some goofiness thrown in…..Dmitri Young assaulting a helpless mascot with a bat, as opposed to Kyle Farnsworth destryong Mike Sweeney

by Nighthawk at the Diner on Feb 10, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

That's interesting that you'd mention the autism spectrum with him.

My wife is a psychologist and I was watching a postgame interview of Zack one time when she stopped what she was doing and watched it with me. She looked right at me and asked me if he had Aspergers. I think that if anyone on the team was socially awkward, it was Zack. Not Butler.

I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.

by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 11, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Yep

That guy had no idea how to interact with people. Nor did he want to.

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 11, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Well Greinke did say that he suffered from clinical depression and social anxiety disorder. He said that he often felt uncomfortable around people, even people he knew and liked in a place he was generally comfortable in (like the Royals clubhouse). He wasn’t outgoing at all. While not asocial, he usually kept to himself. Given all that, it seems unlikely to me that he’d call a meeting to ridicule a player. Not because he’s a great guy, but because he’s not a gregarious shit-stirrer.

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by Scott McKinney on Feb 11, 2011 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I won't say I disagree.

But I’ll say that I can imagine circumstances where Zack would try to be more social, and to do that he would target one person (Billy) and make fun of him, hoping others would join in. Maybe Zack was trying to be like “one of the guys” for a while. And his anti-social behavior would lend support for a immature attempt at being more involved.

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 11, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Well

He is a jock and I can see a socially awkward jock doing something like it.

by BlueEyes_Austin on Feb 15, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Im not saying it did or didnt happen

Im just repeating what my dad told me, and it makes sense to think about. My dad had a bunch of details he was spewing, about how DM said greinke was never around besides the day he was pitching and how he didnt give a shit about any of his teammates and how Billy’s outgoing personality got under his skin. And these aren’t details my dad would just make up. He was very adamant every time he called B.S. and even admitted that he was surprised at the info DM was dishing out.

If you add everything up- Greinkes early trade, Billy’s comments after he was traded, this quote to Nick Scott- it makes sense

by LimaTime10 on Feb 11, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know

We generally think the story where Zack showed Gordon a video of his HR and told Gordon “That’s what a HR looks like in case you forgot” is funny, but may also suggest that Zack had a bit of a chip on his shoulder about the younger players. It was also Zack who was excited in 2009 when the Royals signed a bunch of bad veterans. Maybe he was overcompensating or maybe he got a bad vibe from those guys at Wichita and just didn’t like them. Zack could easily be the type of guy to hold a grudge pretty fiercely.

It's all ball bearings these days!

by CentralChamps20?? on Feb 14, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

i also remember a zack interview

where he bragged about dogging soria, saying he teased him all the time. He’s a bad pitcher, his fastball is too slow, he’s not good enough to be a starter, he signed a bad contract etc.

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by who am i? on Feb 17, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

My wife is a teacher, has had several students with Aspergers....said same thing about Zack...

Its kind of silly to diagnose from a seasons worth of interview snippets…but it sure seems plausible.

by Nighthawk at the Diner on Feb 11, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

If he's gonna do that hopefully its at the Mar 13 game when I'll be there.

I’d rather just see Billy get a hit off of him though

Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com

by kcscoliny on Feb 10, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

This makes so much sense.

Can’t believe we didn’t guess this already.

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 10, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Just makes me wonder

why Moore is telling that story — why now, just after he traded the guy? What’s the angle?

Gotta be GMDM himself who benefits most. Sly way to rally support for selling somewhat low.

by 2X2L on Feb 10, 2011 9:46 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I had the same questions..

There’s a risk of the Dan Gilbert factor, when somebody high up in the team, in burning bridges, sends a message to potential FAs that this is an organization that bags on former players.

Of course, Moore didn’t publicly name any names, and the scope of this incident is not remotely in the same ballpark..

In the end, not really a big deal, but most GMs wouldn’t be parading this knowledge.

Proud member of the Toledo Computer Club since 2010.

by KeepItCopacetic on Feb 10, 2011 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it was pretty well known around baseball how Billy was treated. Frenchy

laughed about it at the Digital Digest when i asked about it and they had never met prior.

Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com

by kcscoliny on Feb 10, 2011 11:19 PM EST up reply actions  

it's not like a lot of people have seen this comment

definitely not something that will be on SportsCenter tomorrow

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 11, 2011 1:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I was thinking more about GMDM bagging on Greinke

Then about the Butler angle. I think most people who know him figure that Butler doesn’t care.

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by KeepItCopacetic on Feb 11, 2011 4:19 AM EST up reply actions  

That's what I was thinking too

and also about Moore’s general guardedness in discussing the team. He didn’t “let slip” that Greinke was the guy who called the meeting. He told the whole story with a purpose.

by 2X2L on Feb 11, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

class act

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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 11, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

A salutory lesson

In what happens if you doubt the process.

by kcbottom9th on Feb 11, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think Moore does everything with a purpose

I work around politicians — people who really ought to watch what they say — and my experience is that almost nobody is able to be constantly calculating about what they say and don’t say. People can keep specific things secret (well, most can), but there’s a lot of stuff that gets out that’s probably a bad idea in the long run.

I’m not the biggest fan of GMDM in the world, but I think it’s funny how he’s sometimes ascribed childlike intelligence and reasoning and sometimes ascribed superhuman ability to plan several steps ahead.

"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"

by KSinDC on Feb 11, 2011 2:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Come on, now

Moore’s on his preseason rounds with the community movers and shakers. You really think that the repetition of this story at the Tiger Club luncheon and at the Chamber of Commerce, singling out a player he just traded as a instigator of ridicule, even while he regularly trumpets the superior leadership qualities of players he has recently acquired, was something he did without calculation?

Put yourself in his situation: this is going to be a hard year for Moore. The major league team is probably going to be the worst he has put on the field so far, and the prospects aren’t yet sufficiently ready to turn things around. Wouldn’t you be tempted to gather all the good will you can, while you can?

Again, you’ve offered a straw man: I don’t have to believe that he is constantly calculating about what he says to believe that this particular story was calculated. I don’t think he’s more calculating than any other GM while talking in public.

And I’ve never ascribed childlike intelligence or superhuman ability to him. I just said that the telling of this particular story was motivated by self-interest. Is that really hard to believe?

by 2X2L on Feb 11, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

He didn't repeat the story

At the Chamber of Commerce, he said that taking care of Zach was a full time job.

I’d imagine that 90% of the questions he gets are about Butler and Greinke, so it’s not surprising he’s talking about them.

Minda corroborated the Butler story. We’ve heard 1000 times that Zach is a handful to take care of. If the stories are true, what more explanation is necessary? Why is it necessary to believe that Moore is playing some kind of angle.

"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"

by KSinDC on Feb 12, 2011 1:00 AM EST up reply actions  

It isn't necessary to believe anything

and you are quite welcome to interpret Moore’s comments any way you wish.

If you don’t want to notice that his recent fcomments about Greinke are out of character for him, and if you don’t want to ask any questions about why he might be motivated to make them, that’s your business.

Thank you for not being offended by my interest in these questions and my provisional answers for them.

Now that NY has gone out of his way to trivialize all contributions to the discussion, I don’t see any point in continuing it.

by 2X2L on Feb 12, 2011 7:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Now that NY has gone out of his way to trivialize all contributions to the discussion, I don’t see any point in continuing it.

An entire discussion slain by my vorpal sword of uncertainty! But seriously folks, I think all kinds of speculation with regard to this controversey is warranted and interesting. Maybe this was going on, maybe that, maybe this other thing. I just objected to all kinds of certainty about what is going on here, with regard to Greinke, Butler and Moore. It just seems unwarranted. And for many people it will quickly become for them a well established fact that “everybody knows.” When Greinke becomes a free agent, I can see many Royals fans (here and elsewhere) saying, “Yeah he’s a good pitcher but he quit on the Royals back in 2010 and he hates Butler and ridicules him all the time. He even called meetings for the sole purpose of ridiculing Butler with other players! If we sign Greinke, those two are going to be at war in the clubhouse.” Speculation can become “fact” or at least something with truthiness very quickly.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2011 9:17 AM EST up reply actions  

If Juan Marichal and Johnny Roseboro can become friends, anybody can.

Although they seemed to actually respect each other before “the incident” happened and both were willing to accept their part in the build-up to “the incident.” Not sure that’s necessarily the case with Greinke & Butler, but I’m also not sure that it isn’t. I do remember when Greinke got hit with that comebacker late in ’09 Billy was the first one over at the mound asking if he was okay as he and Zack examined where he got hit before the trainers got there.

It’s part of a player’s job to work well with his teammates (not that this always happens).

by Gross(est) on Feb 12, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

He got to where he is by being a smooth son of a bitch, yes?

At least I think anyone that can work their way up to GM can work a room. It doesn’t mean he knows how to evaluate MLB players or that he doesn’t have an irrational love for tools in all ballplayers.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.

People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Feb 11, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Baseball America named him the #1 general manager prospect in 2003

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/features/031209gmprospects.html

Though he was initially reluctant to move from coaching into scouting, Moore has flourished in a variety of roles since joining the Braves as a scouting supervisor in 1994. A former assistant coach at George Mason, the 36-year-old Moore was promoted in 1996 to the baseball operations department, where he’s continued to take on increasing responsibility in subsequent years. Moore, who was called a “John Schuerholz in the making” by more than one executive polled, served as assistant scouting director, assistant farm director and international scouting director before moving into his current role. “He’s on top of everything,” another executive said. “He speaks up and has aggressive ideas.”

He must have been a hell of a room worker.

"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"

by KSinDC on Feb 12, 2011 1:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow....say it aint' so. But we know the mind of Greinke is a strange and cavernous frontier

of yet uncharted exploration.

And Billy was quoted as saying, right after the trade of Grienke, that if a guy doesn’t want to be here, we don’t need that in the clubhouse, which struck my as sort of a good riddance comment.

Maybe Greinke is a little more mental than previously reported.

"If people don't want to come out to the ball park, nobody's gonna stop 'em."
~Yogi Berra~

by TheK-man on Feb 11, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm going to go out on a limb and state

That it wasn’t just Billy they made fun of. And it was going on last year in Spring Training to a lot of the young “prospect” guys that were around…..

by 306008 on Feb 10, 2011 7:08 PM EST reply actions  

I have a funny feeling

that I’m going to find myself cheering against Zack this season, for reasons entirely apart form this business. Wish I was a bigger man, but… nah.

www.marklaflamme.com/books

by LaFLamme on Feb 10, 2011 7:08 PM EST reply actions  

I talked to a guy who played with Billy with USA baseball.

He said other players would openly mock Billy, but that Billy was so dumb he never figured out the joke was on him.

by FallenAngel on Feb 11, 2011 12:01 PM EST reply actions  

This is really sad

Billy is my favorite player on the team. Might get a Butler shersey soon.

Overgay is Destiny

by DCRoyals on Feb 11, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Billy may be dumb.

But not getting a joke is normal. Lots of people don’t get jokes for lots of reasons (Girls are quite gullible, for instance, so they don’t understand sarcasm sometimes).

But without calling Butler smart, I’d like to point out someone who I think is dumber. Zack Greinke. Yes, he has huge social issues, but every interview I’ve ever seen with him is just him sounding like a 5 year old. Sometimes he was awfully blunt, and it showed he understood things about the game (as well as his dislike for stupid questions), but that guy couldn’t talk his way out of a paper bag. He used the word “good” to describe everything. (I played good. I threw good. I felt good. Winning the Cy Young was…good.)

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 11, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Tell me it isn't true.

Jeez. Argue something worth arguing. Not something that is just stereotypical.

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 15, 2011 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Dude, you're killing yourself

with these ridiculous stereotypes.

"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"

by KSinDC on Feb 11, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

-100

For someone so easily offended by political or religious comments, you’d hesitate to throw around offensive racial and gender stereotypes. And pretty silly ones at that. Especially that bit above about “girls” being gullible. That really is offensive. If you believe that, I feel bad for you.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 11, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Nahhh.

I just…..can’t do that.

WTF, self?

by minda33 on Feb 13, 2011 3:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Probably because it was only meant to illustrate reasons

That people don’t get jokes or sarcasm. I generalized to provide an example of why Billy may have been made fun of. We all know those people who don’t get a joke and everybody else knows it, and sometimes we have fun at that person’s expense in a good- natured way. Only here, it was not good natured (if this is part of what was going on). And I just want to say that I think girls (and women) are well respected by me for their ability to get things done, multi-task, etc. But yes, they have deficiencies too. So, I guess I’m a sexist because I definitely recognize differences between the 2 genders. And I’m sorry I offended so many people. I’m not used to prefacing everything I say.

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 15, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

When you’re in quicksand, you should stop flailing. It just makes things worse.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 16, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not easily offended.

Just interested in defending myself from the mob. And I used the word “sometimes.” for good reason. I’m not intending to generalize about all women. I also used " girls" to refer to young women to narrow my statement.

I note that nobody even responds to my point. Just ridicule and move on.

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 15, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

On the off chance that this isn't a hoax

I’ll try to expand a bit…

1) As noted by several people, this isn’t the first stereotype you’ve deployed in the last week. Given that this site is well trafficked by people who do a lot of working with data to check their theories, anybody tossing untested theories out there is going to come under some heat from others who either do the work to check theories or who at least respect the work that others are doing to check their theories. And describing your stereotypes as theories is, I think, the most generous possible description

2) In contrast to your christian athlete post last week where you used stereotypes to support your conclusion, this stereotype served no possible purpose. Everyone knows people who don’t get jokes. It’s not a trait that’s so rare or difficult to describe that you need an example to illustrate it. There’s no reason to give an example.

3) Given that the trait you’re describing (gullibility) is unquestionably negative, you have to expect some people to take offense when you slap it on a group. I don’t understand why you would expect otherwise.

So you’re using a claim that’s 1) unsupported 2) pointless and 3) offensive.

In addition, I think the actual characteristic you’re looking for to illustrate your point is that some people don’t get sarcasm because they’re too literal, something which is a characteristic of all young children (a quick google search turns up plenty of scientific literature such as this). When you only single out young females, it makes people wonder why you chose to do so.

I don’t want to focus too much on the offensiveness because I take you at your word that you are sorry (though apologies work better if you don’t bracket them with defenses / qualifiers). Heck, even the fact that it was pointless isn’t the big problem. If, in a discussion of Royals rainouts, I mention that i’ve noticed that it there are 1 1/2 as many rainy Saturdays as rainy Sundays, I’m going to get some blowback from this board. And it’ll be worse if I follow that with “don’t bother quoting weather statistics to me; i’ve been noticing this for years.” And it’ll be still worse if I’ve got a track record of assertions like that.

If you’re going to make broad generalizations, be ready to back them up with information. If you can’t be bothered to find the data, ask yourself whether it’s necessary to make the generalization.

"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"

by KSinDC on Feb 16, 2011 12:32 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

That offensive statement wasn't worthy of more than ridicule

You’re not intending to generalize about all women, but you make statements which generalize about women (like, “they have deficiencies too”). Apparently you believe in stereotypes. You believe in some pretty insulting generalizations women. Yeah, you’re sexist.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 16, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with everything you said

and would like to add I find Republicans very dumb as well. I would probably bet the majority of baseball players are Republicans.

zing

Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com

by kcscoliny on Feb 11, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

girls are gullible

I know I’m way behind on this, but:

1) That’s ridiculous. You’re an idiot.

2) Who talks about “girls” like that? How old are you? Are you talking about high school girls? Are you basically making a blond joke (only applying to to all women)?

Undoubtedly, I’m over-analyzing.

by thehopper on Feb 11, 2011 9:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Man really, let’s not just start calling each other idiots. I mean your critique is valid, but we really want to avoid calling each other morons, idiots, etc.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 11, 2011 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

fair enough

But seriously, it’s not like I can make a rational argument against “girls are gullible.”

Generally speaking, I agree with you, non-rational ad-hominen arguments are unhelpful. There are times, however, when such an argument is the best possible one. In my opinion, this is one of those times.

by thehopper on Feb 11, 2011 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps but we try to keep things from getting to that level here or discussions can devolve into just throwing insults back and forth.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2011 7:30 AM EST up reply actions  

So are we thinking that his possible "ridicule" that Butler got was about him being stupid?

Putting the apocraphyl Greinke incident aside, it seems like an odd choice for other baseball players to ridicule a player for being stupid. It seems to me like most of them can barely tie their own shoes, let alone know what 9 × 7 equals. I mean in order for Butler to be so much more stupid than the rest of the players to deserve ridicule, he’d have to be nearly retarded. And certainly in interviews he’s sounded just as mildly articulate and cliche-regurgitating as every other player. I doubt he’s actually less intelligent than the average player. Is it because his baby-face looks and rotund body make him look stupid?

Or is this all much ado about next to nothing? Was he just the youngest player on the team and therefore he was razzed by older players in the same way that this happens on every team, in every sport, at nearly every level? In short, was this horribly mean, unacceptable bullying and over-the-line hazing, or was it just older, more experienced players poking fun at a younger, less experienced player?

My gut says that we’ve blown a couple little statements into something much bigger than it actually was.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 11, 2011 1:54 PM EST reply actions  

Probably so.

The actual truth probably lies, somewhere in the middle.

"If people don't want to come out to the ball park, nobody's gonna stop 'em."
~Yogi Berra~

by TheK-man on Feb 11, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it is actually different from that

We have so little information that I don’t even think we can say the truth is either X or Y. I’m sure the true picture is much more complex involving a ton of information we don’t have about. How as Billy behaved as a Royal? Did he cause any problems? Did vets treat him badly? Did he start some problem that others reacted to with ridicule? Did he get some innocent razzing which he overreacted to and that led to some really bad treatment by vets? Was Greinke involved? How so? Did he really actually call meetings for the sole purpose of ridicule? What was the nature of the Greinke-Butler relationship? Were they ever friendly? Did Butler ever say or do anything bad to Greinke? Is Moore making all of this up for PR reasons? Or is Moore exaggerating? Or did Moore not really know what was going on the clubhouse and he’s misinterpreting something he’s heard happened? Or is Moore 100% correct? Or something else?

These are just a handful of relevant questions which show how little we know about what is going on. Because we know very close to nothing about Butler, Greinke, Moore or anyone else with regard to these things, I’m not jumping to any conclusions about what anyone did or who is a good guy or not a good guy.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 11, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

What we do know, is that Butler has been thrust into a defacto leadership role

by Royals management at a very young age. He seems to be handling it pretty well, and this is the sort of thing that makes it hard for a young transformational leader like Billy.

There are many different types of leadership, and we’re just beginning to learn what type of leader Billy is going to be.

Here’s a few styles we know of:

1. Autocratic leadership

Autocratic leadership is an extreme form of transactional leadership, where leaders have absolute power over their workers or team. Staff and team members have little opportunity to make suggestions, even if these would be in the team’s or the organization’s best interest.

Most people tend to resent being treated like this. Therefore, autocratic leadership often leads to high levels of absenteeism and staff turnover. However, for some routine and unskilled jobs, the style can remain effective because the advantages of control may outweigh the disadvantages.

2. Bureaucratic leadership

Bureaucratic leaders work “by the book.” They follow rules rigorously, and ensure that their staff follows procedures precisely. This is a very appropriate style for work involving serious safety risks (such as working with machinery, with toxic substances, or at dangerous heights) or where large sums of money are involved (such as handling cash).

3. Charismatic leadership

A charismatic leadership style can seem similar to transformational leadership, because these leaders inspire lots of enthusiasm in their teams and are very energetic in driving others forward. However, charismatic leaders can tend to believe more in themselves than in their teams, and this creates a risk that a project, or even an entire organization, might collapse if the leader leaves. In the eyes of the followers, success is directly connected to the presence of the charismatic leader. As such, charismatic leadership carries great responsibility, and it needs a long-term commitment from the leader.

4. Democratic leadership or participative leadership

Although democratic leaders make the final decisions, they invite other members of the team to contribute to the decision-making process. This not only increases job satisfaction by involving team members, but it also helps to develop people’s skills. Team members feel in control of their own destiny, so they’re motivated to work hard by more than just a financial reward.

Because participation takes time, this approach can take longer, but often the end result is better. The approach can be most suitable when working as a team is essential, and when quality is more important than speed to market, or productivity.

5. Laissez-faire leadership

This French phrase means “leave it be,” and it’s used to describe leaders who leave their team members to work on their own. It can be effective if the leader monitors what’s being achieved and communicates this back to the team regularly. Most often, laissez-faire leadership is effective when individual team members are very experienced and skilled self-starters. Unfortunately, this type of leadership can also occur when managers don’t apply sufficient control.

6. People-oriented leadership or relations-oriented leadership

This is the opposite of task-oriented leadership. With people-oriented leadership, leaders are totally focused on organizing, supporting, and developing the people in their teams. It’s a participative style, and it tends to encourage good teamwork and creative collaboration.

In practice, most leaders use both task-oriented and people-oriented styles of leadership.

7. Servant leadership

This term, created by Robert Greenleaf in the 1970s, describes a leader who is often not formally recognized as such. When someone, at any level within an organization, leads simply by meeting the needs of the team, he or she is described as a “servant leader.”

In many ways, servant leadership is a form of democratic leadership, because the whole team tends to be involved in decision making.

Supporters of the servant leadership model suggest that it’s an important way to move ahead in a world where values are increasingly important, and where servant leaders achieve power on the basis of their values and ideals. Others believe that in competitive leadership situations, people who practice servant leadership can find themselves left behind by leaders using other leadership styles.

8. Task-Oriented leadership

Highly task-oriented leaders focus only on getting the job done, and they can be quite autocratic. They actively define the work and the roles required, put structures in place, plan, organize, and monitor. However, because task-oriented leaders don’t tend to think much about the well-being of their teams, this approach can suffer many of the flaws of autocratic leadership, with difficulties in motivating and retaining staff.

9. Transactional leadership

This style of leadership starts with the idea that team members agree to obey their leader totally when they accept a job. The “transaction” is usually the organization paying the team members in return for their effort and compliance. The leader has a right to “punish” team members if their work doesn’t meet the pre-determined standard.

Team members can do little to improve their job satisfaction under transactional leadership. The leader could give team members some control of their income/reward by using incentives that encourage even higher standards or greater productivity. Alternatively, a transactional leader could practice “management by exception” – rather than rewarding better work, the leader could take corrective action if the required standards are not met.

Transactional leadership is really a type of management, not a true leadership style, because the focus is on short-term tasks. It has serious limitations for knowledge-based or creative work, however it can be effective in other situations.

10. Transformational leadership

As we discussed earlier, people with this leadership style are true leaders who inspire their teams constantly with a shared vision of the future. While this leader’s enthusiasm is often passed onto the team, he or she can need to be supported by “detail people.” That’s why, in many organizations, both transactional and transformational leadership are needed. The transactional leaders (or managers) ensure that routine work is done reliably, while the transformational leaders look after initiatives that add new value.
Key Points

While the transformational leadership approach is often highly effective, there’s no one “right” way to lead or manage that fits all situations. To choose the most effective approach for yourself, consider the following:

    * The skill levels and experience of your team.
    * The work involved (routine, or new and creative).
    * The organizational environment (stable or radically changing, conservative or adventurous).
    * You own preferred or natural style.

Good leaders often switch instinctively between styles, according to the people they lead and the work that needs to be done. Establish trust – that’s key to this process – and remember to balance the needs of the organization against the needs of your team.

Right now, I would view Billy as a combonation of the Charasmatic and Transformational styles.

Regardless of what he is at this juncture, Dayton Moore has made the position his, for the forseeable future.

I think he’s best served to just lead by example, and show by doing.

If he just hits .315 with 20 dingers, 200 hits, 60 doubles, and 5 triples, leading the team will take care of itself.

It’s gonna be alright Billy, just do what you do best.

"If people don't want to come out to the ball park, nobody's gonna stop 'em."
~Yogi Berra~

by TheK-man on Feb 11, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Felt like I was in "Leadership" training back at Corporate

I feel like we’re going to start tossing a bean bag around to each other and describe a time we were inspired by a great leader…

by Tito42 on Feb 11, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Felt like I was in "Leadership" training back at Corporate

I feel like we’re going to start tossing a bean bag around to each other and describe a time we were inspired by a great leader…

by Tito42 on Feb 11, 2011 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Straight out of a behavioral text book

Makes me think about how much time is wasted teaching this to college students.

by hawkinscm87 on Feb 15, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Everything and nothing

You’re probably right about not ever really knowing, and I think I’m okay with that.

by thehopper on Feb 11, 2011 9:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm ok with that too

But I guess I’m mostly not ok with people getting 0.1% of the facts and then jumping to the conclusion that they’ve figured out the 100% of the picture. Seems like most who are discussing this feel like they “really know what’s going on here.” I really doubt the do. But it’s fun to think that the guy we traded is an A-hole, the guy we extended is a really great guy and the incompetent GM is a conniving, Machiavellian public relations manipulator (who for some reason waited two months to start his anti-Greinke whisper campaign).

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 11, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know about fun.

It’s weird that DM make the reference to getting Greinke back in 2013 (that was probably another fanshot) and then basically pisses on him. That doesn’t seem to mesh well.

Plus, I’d like to get Greinke back. Then we can have awesome stories about how he’s changed, and he’s such a great guy now: “a real clubhouse leader.” Oh, and he’s a pretty good pitcher too.

by thehopper on Feb 11, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Just questioning the various (often contradictory) narratives that this little controversy has created. They are as worthy of critique as they were of their creation and promulgation.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2011 9:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Then offer a critique

instead of a general dismissal.

by 2X2L on Feb 12, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I did. Repeatedly.

The critique is that we have tiny little bits of information and from that many people have jumped to dubious conclusions (some more reasonable and well supported than others). I pointed out various questions that we don’t have answers to, but many have filled in the blanks with a lot of assumptions.

As I have already said, I think the controversy is interesting and lots of speculation is warranted. But of course many go far beyond that to conclusions about what is “clearly going on here.”

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

You can consider that a critique if you like

but at best I find it to be only a caution about jumping to conclusions. A critique is more engaged with its subject than that — you would want to say that this particularly conclusion seems dubious because…. and that specific conclusion seems well supported because….

You don’t have to do that, of course. Just don’t claim that you did when you didn’t. Or anyway you didn’t about the part of the discussion I’ve been involved in.

I completely agree with you about incautious assumptions, by the way. Which is why I asked myself why Moore was forthcoming with information about Greinke’s off-field behavior now. But I said my piece on all that already.

by 2X2L on Feb 12, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, I could have spent a lot of time challenging each individual unwarranted assumption and unsupported conclusion

But I really didn’t want to. I devoted as much time and typing to it as I felt it warranted. I gave a critique of the discussion, not each individual point in it. I believe critiques can be general, as well as specific. I chose the former.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

You could even have

devoted less. It would have worked itself out just as well.

by 2X2L on Feb 12, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

And we all could have avoided the entire deconstruction of this controversy

That also would have worked itself out just as well. You say tomato, I say tomahto; let’s call the whole thing off.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

No, there's a difference

in that there were parties interested in having the discussion and letting it play out.

And then there was a moderator, you, who chose to make what I still see as dismissive remarks, misrepresenting at least my thread of the discussion, and showing an alarming lack of respect for the participants.

You shouldn’t be doing that, is what I’m trying to say. This is a nice place to come for discussion. Please be careful with it.

by 2X2L on Feb 12, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Lack of respect?

How? By saying that I think people are jumping to unwarranted conclusions based on little information? That is how I’m disrespecting people? Now, my may have been somewhat overbroad. Not everyone was jumping to conclusions. But as saying that people are jumping to unwarranted conclusions is in no way disrespectful or insulting, I didn’t think I needed to be too careful to list who I was specifically referring to.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, Scott

I give up. If you are unaware of a problem with overbroad moderation on a discussion site or with misrepresentations of views that have been expressed, I’m not going to say anything, not now anyway, that will change that. If I were able I would already have said it.

by 2X2L on Feb 12, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think they were extremly minor comments sharing my opinions on the discussion. They were as valid and valuable (or valueless) as any others in this thread. I’m genuinely shocked that anyone was offended by them. I really think it’s no big deal. I’m sorry that you were offended.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 12, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Plenty of substantiation?

A few vague third hand accounts. And yet we are quick to jump to any number of conclusions about what was really going on.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Feb 11, 2011 2:54 PM EST up reply actions  

You read Minda's posts differently than I do then.

If you trust her (and obviously I do), then she’s got first or second-hand accounts of “it could have been anybody. The culture of hatred toward Billy was quite strong” which she then backs up with specific (albeit childish) complaints other players had. Keeping an open mind is generally a good thing, but this works for me as “plenty of substantiation.” I didn’t believe it until I read Minda’s posts, and now I do.

"I think a tactical error might have been committed by the manager of the Royals"

by KSinDC on Feb 11, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I in no way want to imply that this is a big deal.

However, I think it is safe to say that…

1. Billy is not the brightest guy in the room (even at baseball player standards).
2. Most people here (including myself) could not care less about how “smart” Billy is because he is a very good baseball player, and will be one of the few bright spots on the opening day roster.

by FallenAngel on Feb 11, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

And their names were Dayton Moore.

Yeah, what a hypocritical piece of dweebage Dayton is. His first couple years here I spoke with him one-on-one maybe six times, and three of those he went on and on about how useless Billy was and how he couldn’t believe the prior GM had drafted such a loser.

Baseball's that swingy stick game, right?

by royalsroyalsroyals on Feb 15, 2011 8:19 PM EST reply actions  

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