Could the Royals Once Again Become Missouri's Team?
by Freneau on Nov 1, 2011 2:25 AM EDT
in Kansas City Royals News
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PrintThis February, when the Royals were apparently ascending and questions surrounded the Cardinals, I wondered about the timetable for the Royals winning Missouri's heart again. I thought tonight might be a good time to revisit the discussion. Obviously, despite all the buzz the Royals' farm system has generated, we can now move that timetable back a few more years now. -WM
As an outsider, I've always enjoyed the rivalry between Kansas City and St. Louis. I don't have a personal stake in it, other than that I'm a Royals fan. The fun thing about it is that it isn't just a baseball rivalry. There really is a dislike, sometimes good-natured, sometimes not, between the two metro areas. In writing about the Royals for many years now, I've come to understand that there are a number of people in Kansas City that simply don't like St. Louis. They don't think it's a nice place, they don't like the people there, they don't like the vibe of the city. It's all usually fairly vague, but they just don't like St. Louis.
Part of the issue, again from the outside, is that Kansas Citians believe that St. Louisians have a negative attitude towards KC. There's a feeling that St. Louis is a little bit pretentious. However, there's also St. L's refusal to engage at times. In the baseball sense, there's definitely a Card-fan meme of "the Royals aren't our rival." I think that, outside of state politics, that extends to the city dynamic. So ultimately, it's a weird dynamic. I hate you why don't you hate me back?
But beyond all of this is the matter of the rest of the state. Culturally, most of middle and southern Missouri certainly feels much more like Kansas City to me. Sounds like Kansas City too. Even looks like Kansas City. A majority of the state is definitely Cardinals fans however. The Cardinals seem to have the edge along the I-70 corridor. Coupled with their dominance in the southern part of the state, including Springfield and Joplin, they've got the Royals outflanked.
The question today is this: could this ever change?
Obviously, the consistently terrible play of the Royals since the mid-90s has eroded the fanbase regionally. From a mid-80s peak, the Royals have lost tens of thousands of regional fans in Nebraska, Iowa, South Dakota, Oklahoma, Colorado and Arkansas. The heartland of Royals fandom, legitimate Royals fandom, is Metro KC and Kansas. The Royals still have radio affiliates in Iowa and South Dakota, for example, but I almost never saw any evidence of Royals fans in either place.
While the Royals started losing, the Cardinals kept being a good team. I don't think of the 1990s as a great period in Cardinal history, yet they managed to make the playoffs in 1996, wedged between two 4th place finishes. That one random playoff appearance helped sustain their fanbase from malaise, as did the Big Mac love a bit later. Then, starting in 2000, the Cardinals turned into a dynamo. Since 2000, they've made the playoffs seven times. A very good Cardinals team lost a World Series and a mediocre one won one. (Sound familiar?)
In addition to that winning, the Cardinals, along with the people that cover them, do a very good job of selling the Cardinals as a regional team. Cardinal broadcasts, local and national, are littered with references to "the best fans in baseball" and feature frequent references to the size of the fanbase. You hear all the time about groups or families driving to Cardinals games from Arkansas, southern Missouri, southern Illinois, etc. Probably, at this very moment, some Cardinal fan writer, is writing a book along the lines of RR's Radio Affiliate Profile Series, that will be published by ESPN Books. Suicide now.
Anyway, let's just focus on Missouri. Can the Royals win it back? Step number one, the Royals have to become a mini-dynasty. Obviously. If the Royals wanted to own a majority of fans in Missouri by 2020, they'd need at least three playoff appearances. Two maybe.
At the same time, the Cardinals need to decline. The Cardinals need to become truly bad, or, at the very least, mediocre. That more or less happened in the 1990s, so it's not an impossibility, despite the best fans in baseball. You can certainly see the Cardinals playing out the next five years with increasingly old and expensive teams, designed to squeeze out what they can from the Pujols/Holliday core. Those periods usually don't end well, at all. As I've argued before, today's beloved star that we simply must lock-up FOREVER is often tomorrow's overpaid millstone that the fanbase comes to despise. That may not happen with Pujols, but it isn't unimaginable either. Just look at how the folks at Lookout Landing came to view Griffey last season... and he was making nothing.
The other thing working in KC's factor is that the St. Louis old-timers are dying. The generation of fans that truly remembers the Cardinals as the only team in the midwest or mid-south is fading away. The Rangers and Astros have been around for forty years now. The Royals have been around for over forty years now. A middle-aged guy in Springfield might still be a Cardinal fan because his dad saw Musial play and he never liked the new-fangled Royals. Time is starting to wash those memories and those fans away, however. Replaced daily with people who consider the 1990s "old-school." Again, kill me now.
Of course, that also applies to the Royals. The generation of Royals fans who remember our glory days is also fading away. Or, at least, starting to get outnumbered. No one under 30 has any serious experience, outside of embryonic memories as a 5 or 6 year old, of the Royals being great. The Royals fans who had the greatest experiences as fans are those who are now in their mid-to-late 40s.
I respect and admire the Cardinal fanbase. I truly do. I'm a baseball fan and I like hardcore baseball fans. However, I don't think they're invulnerable. In the end, if the Royals can become truly good, I think that Cardinal heartlands in southern and midwestern Missouri are vulnerable. The Cardinals have been good historically and were great in the 2000s, and you can't underestimate how meaningful a great decade can be in creating and sustain fans. The Royals need to make the Teens their decade.
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I think the reason we dislike StL is similar to the reason a good chunk of Jackson county hates Johnson county
They think they are better than us, and that their sh*t doesn’t stink. Are all of them that way? No, of course not. But the overall mentality and attitude is there for the most part.
by AxDxMx on Feb 18, 2011 2:13 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
As A WyCo
Kid, I resented everything about Johnson County.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 29, 2011 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!
Dr. Ausgiano schools me in the classroom and on the field of battle
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Feb 18, 2011 2:17 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Not now
We had our chance, after we beat them head to head in 85. If we had kept that momentum going we could have taken the state. But the last 20 years have just been disastrous.
Plus, I think a large part of the state of Missouri will never embrace a team from Kansas City.
I kept catching myself rooting for the Rams this past football season
Then I would remember that I hate that entire city and everything it involves.
Where does the talent of Royals prospects go? I imagine a man in Germany shouting "Why can I play baseball so well? WHY?" - Joe Posnanski
"I really hate the Cardinals. All they do is bitch and moan about everything. They're little bitches" - Brandon Phillips
by RoyalsFanStuckInCardsLand on Feb 18, 2011 2:22 PM EST reply actions
Is this the right forum
for the classic “poo holes” Pujols joke?
by i before e except after Grrr on Feb 18, 2011 2:24 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
fuck those wannabe chicago assholes
all of them
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2011 2:33 PM EST reply actions 7 recs
I always got the impression they wanted to be a Northeastern city.
Whereas Chicago was more than happy to be Chicago.
They seemed envious of Chicago to me
Always worried about what was going on in Chicago, like it’s their big brother.
Definitely.
The Cardinals have been rivals with the Cubs because of the fact that St. Louis always had a chip on their shoulder about it.
by hawkinscm87 on Feb 19, 2011 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
Part of the great unrequited rivalry chain of cities
care: Omaha → Kansas City → St. Louis → Chicago
don’t care: Chicago → St. Louis → Kansas City → Omaha
@jschnauzer
Bloggin' at http://joepasdoghouse.com
That chain extends just a bit further...
Omaha → Kansas City → St. Louis → Chicago
→ New York.
And the “don’t care” can be similarly extended.
Or, as I once heard it explained, Chicago enjoys a friendly rivalry with New York, of which New Yorkers are unaware.
It’s kind of like that all the way up the chain.
It goes the other way too:
Omaha → Lincoln → Grand Island → Scottsbluff → Cheyenne, Wyoming → Rock Springs, Wyoming → Cattle → Rocks, etc.
@jschnauzer
Bloggin' at http://joepasdoghouse.com
GRASS CREEK FOREVER!
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 18, 2011 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
North Platte and Ogallala appear to be missing in that daisy chain of envy
sadly/humorously, there is a bit of a dust up pissing match between Grand Island and Bellevue, as to who rightfully owns the title of 3rd biggest city in Nebraska. Islanders taking the narrow view that Bellevue’s population numbers are skewed by Offut Air Force Base/George W. Bush hiding place.
by Nighthawk at the Diner on Feb 19, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Chicago is an awesome city. I have a blast everytime I go. Great people there too.
"The future, ain't what it used to be." ~Yogi Berra~
my username says it all
I went to college in STL for four years and I really did not hate the Cards that much before I went. The problem is the converted Cardinals fans from other cities and the regional fanbase. These types of fanbases are fair-weather by nature and can easily be won back, as Will mentioned. They are also fairly annoying and not as smart as their announcers say they are. I always refer to the Cardinals fans as the “self-appointed best fans in baseball”, because no one else would just throw that at their doorstep after their years in the 90s. Wouldn’t the Yankees or Red Sox have a ridiculously stronger claim to this? Heck, even Twins fans have that reputation. But sadly we have no realistic shot of reclaiming Missouri for another 2 or more years, as Pujols continues to dominate and we struggle for relevance.
Todd Haley's kids know more swear words than I do.
by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Feb 18, 2011 2:41 PM EST reply actions
the best fans thing annoys me
because I just imagine some middle-aged LaRussa lover who gets excited when the team bunts or pulls a double switch
definitely a stadium that makes a BIG DEAL about how their cheering for a bunt
I hate the best fans thing too.
Just look at how those uneducated assholes are already turning on Pujols.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 18, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
LaRussa is even more overrated than The Doors, Smashing Pumpkins, and
Shawshank Redemption combined.
by Nighthawk at the Diner on Feb 19, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 7 recs
This comment is so accurate, I seriously can't stand it.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 19, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
The Pumpkins are overrated?
I thought everyone hated them (especially the critics)? I’ve been a fan since the Siamese Dream days, and to me at least, it seems like nobody likes them, or has always trashed on Corgan. I feel like I almost have to apologize for being a fan of theirs any time that they are brought up.
by AxDxMx on Feb 20, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i concur
Hating life as a Royals fan 365 days a year at Royalscentricity
by Old Man Duggan on Feb 20, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Like Metallica, the obnoxiousness of their fans has forced the public to turn against them.
It doesn’t hurt that Billy Corgan is a jackass.
Shawshank Is So Not Overrated
All the rest I can agree with.
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Feb 22, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Just Because Something
Is good doesn’t mean it isn’t overrated. Taken, on the other hand……….
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 29, 2011 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't agree more
I always knew KC and STL didn’t really get along when I was growing up. But when I went to Mizzou, that all changed. I stopped being a Blues hockey fan when I saw how those people acted when they were handed won the world series in 06.
Ugh. A majority of them peaked in high school (I mean seriously, almost every story is about Parkway West or Chaminade, barf.)
Of course, STL people will explain that KC hates them because we have a little brother complex. Bull fucking shit. I’ve visited st. louis several times since my 18th birthday, and it’s nothing special.
Mardi Gras? Sure, I’ll get drunk in 40 degree weather and walk around a dumpy area of town and spend 7 dollars for beer. Assholes, it’s the midwest, 7 dollars?
Best fans in baseball? If you say so…oh you do say so.
You hate Chicago? Who in their right mind hates Chicago?
THEY have the little brother complex, not us.
http://www.royalskingdom.blogspot.com
http://www.chiefscommand.com
by kcdynasty on Feb 18, 2011 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Probably, but to me it's more of a Southern thing
The city feels like it’s trying to be Southern. Maybe the roots are more from the South than KC’s, and/or the remaining vestiges (post-Civil War, I guess) are just more Southern. But one of my turn-offs is this pretend Southern old-school vibe that I can’t seem to escape when I’m there.
And with that snobbish stereotypical Southern condescension, it doesn’t matter if KC has more or less money, they’re still going to be looked down upon with their not-up-to-STL-standards ways.
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 18, 2011 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
a little of both
South Carolina is the closest comparison that I can think of, however I’ve never actually been to SC. Without being a real walking/public transport city, I don’t think STL can emulate (or try to emulate) NY, Bos, Philly, DC (maybe D.C. with the quasi-Southern thing), etc.
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 18, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
yes, both terms
genteel & upper crust
It’s the cotillion/Ballroom gown & tux to graduation/gated neighborhoods that come to mind.
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 18, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see the St. Louis-Southern thing at all...
KC is way more Southern, I’m sad to say, than St Louis.
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
by setupunchtag on Oct 29, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Wannabe East Coast
All the way. Their declining status as a major city eats them alive. KC remains the same, never a big player, but solidly in the middle of the pack.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 29, 2011 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it's more of an east coast thing.
They have an attitude about being a “flyover city.” I think that the city as a whole is one of the most pretentious places I’ve ever been. About half of the people I went to college with were from the STL area, and they all thought KC was a dump. Almost all of them were Chiefs fans though, and when the Rams came to town I embraced them because for me they were simply: not the Chiefs. As a transplant, I love the Royals and I like the Rams, but when I go to a Rams game I can’t wait to get the hell out of there. I mean, who doesn’t want to brag about living in a city where crime is literally everywhere? At one time I think they were 2nd in the nation to D.C. in violent crime rate.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 18, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
East St. Louis is one of the worst metropolitan sections in the country
We should trade for Vance Worley.
Here is how big a shit hole East St. Louis is
2006 crime figures, per 100,000 population:
Murder: East St. Louis 101, national average 5.6
Rape: ESL 251, USA 32.2
Robbery: ESL 1347, USA 195
Assault: ESL 5847, USA 340
Burglary: ESL 2443, USA 814
Auto theft: ESL 2066, USA 526
In East St. Louis you have a 6% chance per year of being assaulted AND reporting it to the police, or the police becoming involved. Imagine how many rapes and assaults don’t get reported.
East St. Louis has a murder rate that more than doubles other well-known shit holes: Gary, Indiana 48.3, New Orleans 37.6, Baltimore 43.3, Detroit 47.3, St. Louis city 37.2.
Three-quarters of the 1950 population have moved away.
There are some bad parts of Kansas City, but nothing like this.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
by Juancho on Oct 29, 2011 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Any post that uses the phrase
“well known shit-holes” will always be rec’d by me.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Oct 29, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
ESL Was Where
I had my first “So this is where I’m gonna die” moments. Oil light on, middle of the night, just trying to find my way back ti the interstate.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 29, 2011 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that StL has an East Coast vibe...
…at least in comparison to KC. And that’s kind of pathetic when you think about how far away the East Coast is…
I grew up in St. L. My screen name is a relic of the fact that I emigrated to KC from StL in the late 80’s (and in the 90’s, when I started spending time on-line, that was still a big part of my identity—the new guy in town or something like that).
While some Southern culture has, indeed, migrated up the Mississippi (Veiled Prophet Ball, anyone?), I sense that the majority of the attitudes/outlooks you encounter in StL are more Eastern. StL has always considered itself the “gateway to the West,” but that’s because it is the last bit of “East” you encounter on your way to California.
Historically, I suspect that the Eads Bridge made StL a key choke-point between East and West and folks headed West somehow left a cultural residue of the places they were leaving. The city’s commerce also continued to face in a generally Easterly direction, as the bridge facilitated trade between East and West.
KC, on the other hand, had the Hannibal Bridge… but that didn’t lead to a generalized back-and-forth trade so much as it led to cattle drives terminating in KC before the herd was loaded onto stock cars bound for the slaughterhouses of Chicago. As a result, I think that KC commerce wound up facing in a generally Southerly direction, and all those cowboys left their own cultural residue on this region.
When The Depression
Flushed all the hillbillies off the land, they seemingly picked KC over STL as a destination of last resort. I grew up with a bunch of outrageous citybillies, some sporting vestigial southern accents. My father had no particular accent, but he was a hillbilly all the way.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 29, 2011 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I go to school about an hour and a half away from St. Louis
Like you, I didn’t have any ill will towards the city before I got there. All of that changed. You are right, they take great stock in where they went to high school, and they think their way is always the correct way. I hate when I ask “What kind of pop is there?” and they reply, “You mean ‘soda’ right?”
They just drive me crazy. But now, it has kind of came full circle for some people I went to school with. After growing up in StL and graduating school, many of them received job offers in the KC area. After living there for some time, they say they love it more than St. Louis.
I think the thing with the Cardinals being the state’s team has to do with how long they have been in St. Louis. My dad is a Cardinals fan because, well there were no other teams remotely close to KC when he was a child. It is almost like how the Chiefs are the state’s football team. Granted, the Chiefs haven’t been around nearly as long as the Cardinals, but they were here before the Rams, and many people around St. Louis became Chiefs fans for that reason.
Their fans always ‘take over’ the K, our fans always ‘take over’ the Edwards Jones Dome.
And Todd Haley said, "Let there be wins," and there were wins;
And Todd Haley saw the wins, and it was good.
by NaturalsLight on Feb 18, 2011 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
I've never had a problem with St. Louis people in general
but you can always count on there being that one guy. Citizens of either city are just as likely to bring up the “Beat yer ass in ’85/you stole the WS from us” conversation.
I really got sick of everyone asking me what high school I went to when I lived there.
by Tito42 on Feb 18, 2011 3:34 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Yep.
Dr. Ausgiano schools me in the classroom and on the field of battle
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Feb 18, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Ever met the CBC or SLUH crowd?
The worst.
by hawkinscm87 on Feb 19, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
Really ...gonna put down High Schools...really
Better know what your talking about because the only reason St.Louisians ask that is to connect with people.
And As someone who went to CBC and has a brother that went to SLUH it adds a great rivalry that increases school spirit.
So before you go and putting down something you have no knowledge of…. in the future you should try educating yourself first.
So we should educate ourselves about your high schools?
I think the point is that “what high school did you go to” is a sad way to connect with people (if you can call it that). And in most places, increasing school spirit is something you kinda let go of after you leave the school.
C. Montgomery Hunt: One of the greatest heroes in American history.
99% of STL people use it as a way to judge people.
That excuse is fucking weak. Connect with people? Please.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Oct 29, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
absolutely...
they would much prefer to just see your TRW and a tax return, but it’s ‘St Louis subltlety’ to ask which HS one attended.
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
by setupunchtag on Oct 29, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh it is absolutely a way to assess
Someone’s social stratum. There is a cartel of the private high school grads, mostly Catholic, who are very high on themselves and their status in the community. If you are not in that group, even if you are a transplant, there is an arrogant few who would look down on you upon finding that out.
I say this as a KC native who has lived in STL for 15 years. There are MANY good hearted people here, including my family and my good friends, and I think STL is a midwest city at heart. The lifers have a pride that can feel uppity, but the outer suburbs are full of transplants just like in KC, so it may change in a generation or two.
And it’s not as if KC folks don’t have their own way if making snap judgments-it’s just based on where you live instead of your high school. Johnson County is a state of mind, but within that my hometown of Olathe wouldn’t give me any cred with Mission Hills or Leawood people who feel superior.
by thelaundry on Oct 29, 2011 2:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What is the one thing that announces that a person is from St. Louis ?
First words coming out of a persons mouth upon meeting them.
Suspected St. Louie-an: What High School did you go to?
Me: (on the inside- FFFFFFUUUUUUUUU) Actually I went to school in Washington state and further we are all in grad. school at Mizzou, I don’t see how that is relevant to anything.
Suspect: Well, it’s the only thing that matters in St. Louis and/
Me: We’re not in St. Louis and we’ve all now taken up to 3 or more standardized tests that put us all on level playing fields at least to the best of the systems ability.
Suspect: There is a large difference in what your parents did and where you lived and that is reflected in what private school you went to.
Me: FUCK, so you, in the first question upon meeting someone, instantly need to calibrate your egotistic standards to evaluate who you’re dealing with right?
Suspect: In a way it helps us all understand each others’ back ground faster.
Me: It helps you to evaluate if you want to be friends with some one or not right?
Suspect: In a way I suppose but it’s because it then tells us what level your parents were/
Me: That is horrible. Are we in the 1860’s still?
Fuck St. Louis people. (except I have met two that are great, the rest can go choke on some toasted ravioli)
Dr. Ausgiano schools me in the classroom and on the field of battle
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Feb 18, 2011 3:42 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
It's true
This isn’t just a cliche. It happened all the time to me out there. And when your response is you grew up in Kansas City (or St. Joseph, which is my case…still on the wrong side of the state), the conversation quickly fizzles out.
I don’t mind the toasted ravioli, though.
My response:
“I went to Shawnee Mission North, which was probably better than your private school.”
My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.
by jonfmorse on Feb 18, 2011 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
love it
SME here but same response. When trying to convince my fiance we should live in OP (we met at Truman State and currently live in Stl) my greatest argument was always that here we’ll be paying a fortune for or kids to go to a decent school, when in Kansas they could go to a great school for free. But alas, all of her family lives here, and only my mom lives in kc. Im stuck here for life (she makes it worth it though)
by YouDon'tPhaseMeGobble on Feb 19, 2011 3:08 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
SME is an excellent school.
It doesn’t win any points for diversity, though.
I shouldn't mention it, but I can't resist...
The kid that shot and killed that poor skater kid last year was an SME student. Just saying. Not the inner city. SME.
Wyandotte Forever!
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 29, 2011 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Where at in St. Joe did you grow?
St. Louis/Kansas City can almost be analogous to the whole Benton (or Lafayette)/Central debate in St. Joe.
Myself, well, I am a South Sider. Ha.
And Todd Haley said, "Let there be wins," and there were wins;
And Todd Haley saw the wins, and it was good.
by NaturalsLight on Feb 18, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
So you were a 238er
I grew up right on the border of Central/Benton district, near Ajax Rd. and Pear St. I went to Central, but many of my friends thought I lived in the South Side. Headed back there this weekend!
I have several friends who are from near there, off Ajax
In the Mackenzie subdivision (off of Mansfield). They all went to Benton with me. I was back in St. Joe last weekend. Everyone who has ever grown up in St. Joe complains about it, but once they venture to other areas of the state, they realize St. Joe isn’t all that bad ( or at least not as bad as they once thought :-) )
And Todd Haley said, "Let there be wins," and there were wins;
And Todd Haley saw the wins, and it was good.
by NaturalsLight on Feb 20, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
I Once Drove
A hand written check for $1,998,000.00 to St. Joseph so 1st Nat’l Bank of Topeka would have the money a day earlier. I was greeted like a visiting dignitary; I was drunk and stoned. I thought I would just drop the thing off, but I had to meet the bank president and shake hands with all the big guys. I’m sure they were impressed. I was maybe 20 years old.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 29, 2011 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
A Cattle Rancher
I think.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 1, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Go Big Blue!
Now that I live in KC though, I root for all the St. Joe schools (well, except maybe LeBlond) when they’re in town. Once you get out of town, you realize you had family and friends that attended all three.
St. Joe Central is the only one i'm slightly familiar with
since someone brilliantly decided that high schools in Eastern Jackson County had to face St. Joe Central every year.
St. Joe is a nice town with Barbosa’s, so that’s cool
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
Sponsor, 2011 Royals Alumni Fantasy Camp/Royals 5th Starter Star Search
Barbosas is nice, but dude, El Maguey is amazing!!
Also, the Hi-Ho Bar and Grill is a must stop if you’re ever in Joetown. The food is unreal and the atmosphere is awesome. It’s an old Irish pub that has awesome pizza. I hear good things about the food at the First Ward (the alleged oldest bar west of the Mississippi), but I have only been down there for the live bands. People really should make, at least, a one day journey to St. Joe if they’re close enough. There is a lot of history and good food. There are always the drawbacks of the wanna-be thugs on every corner, but I digress.
At Lafayette, we always played Winnetonka and St. Pius in the KC metro. I remember Pius had a great ballfield. They must be stocked with cash.
Hating Zack Greinke irrationally since 2010.
Is El Maguey in a castle?
last time I was up there involved my old HS washing out of a basketball tournament. So the Civic Arena was nice too and downtown was pretty vast. (I think St. Joe is half the population of Independence, but Independence’s downtown is the Square and that’s pretty small and small-towny)
The dynamics of “Independence v. the World” are for another time. It’s a misfortune of location that the 4th largest city in the state is right next to the largest city in the state. If you dropped Independence in North Missouri, it has television and radio… then half the people immediately leave due to the Empty Quarter not being a great location for jobs.
The oddity of a flood and oxbow putting the airport on the other side of the river is another bizarre Missouri situation.
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Barbosas has the castle
El Maguey is on the Belt Highway. Either way, there is great food here. Independence seems relatively close to what we experience in St. Joseph. Many of my friends from high school have taken up residence there and work in other parts of Kansas City. Meanwhile, I am preparing my family for a move to Alabama. The economy around here is declining badly and the state of Missouri doesn’t exactly have a pro-business policy (but that is beginning to change). Alabama has an appeal because the state is very pro-business and nobody seems to want to move there. But, being from St. Joe, it won’t be that much different.
Hating Zack Greinke irrationally since 2010.
yeah, I knew of the Barbosas castle (which does add a lot to the dining experience that is unique amongst Mexican restaurants).. so I was joking that Maguey isn’t in a castle
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Barbosa's is awesome BTW
Had the pork burrito w/ cheese sauce for lunch today with my wife and mother. LOVE their pork burrito. I grew up on Barbosa’s. It’s not authentic Mexican by any stretch of the imagination, but it is unique. You either love it or hate it.
Why the LeBlond hate?
I was Class of 89. I don’t remember any attitude at least at that time that would warrant animosity. I had friends at all the city schools We were pretty small and irrelevant at the time, so no one really bothered to care much then, as opposed to earlier days when rivalries were fiercer.
It's all ball bearings these days!
by CentralChamps20?? on Feb 19, 2011 9:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not hate
I think it’s more the fact I never hear about LeBlond playing anyone in the metro, though I’m sure they must. So more the irrelevancy factor of which you speak. Central’s old football coach (Tony Dudik) is now at LeBlond. He’s a great guy.
Some of the guys I knew in middle school that went to LeBlond did thumb their noses a bit at the public school kids. But it’s not like it is in the “city.” In St. Joe, the private schools are the small fish in the big pond.
The toasted ravioli is a definite perk of living near STL.
I’m always careful to say I live NEAR St. Louis, so people don’t think I live in the city.
This is exactly what happens 99% of the time with these assholes.
Fuck ’em.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 18, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
No kidding.
Every freaken time.
Dr. Ausgiano schools me in the classroom and on the field of battle
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Feb 18, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
I hear what you're saying, but
what high school did you go to?
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 22, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
The whole "flat earth" thing is going to hurt in this quest.
Once someone is a Cardinals fan, they’re gone for the most part. But those few that don’t want to root for the Cards will be moving on to the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, and other teams. It’s not like it was 30 years ago where it had to be one or the other because that was all the coverage you could get.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
People ask me what I do in winter when there’s no baseball...Rock Chalk Talk
I think what it comes down to
is that St. Louis, as a city and surrounding areas, is just a good old fashioned “try hard”.
They try hard to be on the level of Chicago, Minneapolis and Detroit and fall short in history, culture and general contributions to society.
Where’s the best St. Louis style pizza? In Kansas City…at Waldo Pizza.
While St. Louis out-populates us by close to 900k people, we make up the difference with out city’s awesome culture, social life, passion for things other than toasted ravioli and damn fine barbeque.
Several of my friends from college from STL have relocated to KC and all but one of them has stated that they’ll never go back to St. Louis and that KC is worlds ahead of St. Louis’ game.
Score one for the west side.
http://www.royalskingdom.blogspot.com
http://www.chiefscommand.com
And don't get me wrong
STL has some redeeming qualities. It’s a great sports town. They have some of the finest universities in the country (WashU and SLU). But I’ll take downtown KCMO over downtown STL any day of the week.
Here’s some food for thought, if TWA hadn’t moved their headquarters from KC to STL in the mid 70s due to KCI’s poor design for international travel, how different would each city be?
In fact, KCMO’s population (425k) is larger than STL’s (356k).
http://www.royalskingdom.blogspot.com
http://www.chiefscommand.com
EDIT
correction, we out-populate STL by over 125k. KC- 482k, STL-356k
This does not include the metro area, but rather city limits.
http://www.royalskingdom.blogspot.com
http://www.chiefscommand.com
Because their city limits are confined to St. Louis City
Which is not St. Louis county.
by hawkinscm87 on Feb 19, 2011 12:20 AM EST up reply actions
Interesting notion about TWA
but probably ultimately meaningless. Of course, let’s not forget that KCI was designed that way because that’s what TWA originally WANTED. Then, after they realized it sucked, they demanded that KC redesign/rebuild the terminals. KC, very reasonably, refused the request, and TWA was off to Lambert.
The big loss in moving to Lambert was the overhaul base, but fortunately for me, it remained with TWA and more or less in steady use up until TWA’s demise. My dad spent a good portion of his life in that building, and I remember rumblings as a child that we might be forced to move if TWA chose to move the base or distribute the work among other facilities.
For me personally, the biggest benefit to TWA keeping its hub in KC would have meant that I wouldn’t have had to get up at 4AM for every family vacation. That was generally the only way that all of us could catch the “Non-Rev Express” over to Lambert to then take a connecting flight to wherever we were going. Non-Rev in this context meaning Non-Revenue, as in a plane full of TWA employees flying standby and therefore not generating any revenue for the company. We had to be on the first flight out in the morning, because my dad’s “priority level” for our free passes was about as low as it got, and if we got bumped from an early flight to Lambert, the chances of us making a connecting flight were reduced considerably.
Keeping the hub in KC would have meant quite a few more airport-related jobs in KC for a number of years, but TWA’s mismanagement would probably have given us the same ultimate result—a takeover by American (or whichever other big airline saw TWA as ripe for the picking). Then THAT airline probably would have found fault with KCI, which would have meant diverting air traffic (and jobs) from KCI to O’Hare, Atlanta, etc.
I dislike St. Louis, but I HATE Lambert. Probably because I spent so many hours during my formative years waiting for flights to take me someplace MUCH more fun.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 18, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I had a similar upbringing
My dad worked for TWA, too….and yeah, the toughest part about taking any vacation was getting from MCI to STL. We’d drive there half the time in summer to avoid the other, higher-priority employees. In 1988, when I was 9, after coming back from Hawaii, we were stuck for a day and a half in Lambert (we got bumped from 17 consecutive flights back to KC).
I, though, don’t dislike STL. My wife is from there. I prefer Kansas City, but I think St. Louis has a more distinct vibe to it than Kansas City does, especially as Johnson County keeps growing. I moved back here last year, and there’s more of a Southern/Western feel here now, I think, and not in a good way—it’s more of a Republican, Kobach-y, megachurch-y way—though St. Charles county has become something similar in the STL area. I fear that KC is slowly morphing into Tulsa, Oklahoma City, or Wichita.
Getting To SEA
From ANC is the same way for non-revvers. I lost my flight benefits when we sold the airline, but I traveled like that for years. I spent 60 memorable hours in ANC trying to get to SEA in 2003. It was epic.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 29, 2011 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I love the KC airport.
Easiest airport I’ve ever been to when it comes to getting in and out quickly.
KCI is the best airport in the world...
for Kansas Citians. For everyone else, it sucks.
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 18, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
So is it safe to say
that we have the best fans in airports?
http://www.royalskingdom.blogspot.com
http://www.chiefscommand.com
by kcdynasty on Feb 18, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'd say it only sucks
if you’re dealing with a connecting flight on a different airline, unless you’re talking about its actual location.
Unlike Hartsfield, which sucks even if you’re dealing with a connecting flight on the SAME airline.
My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.
How Could It
Be worse that DET?
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 29, 2011 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
We now fly out of Branson on a regular basis.
IT is the easiest airport in the world, but you guys are right. KC is a nice and easy to use airport.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 18, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
That's the part that's the best though.
Each gate has their own security, so there’s not one giant line you have to wait in. If there was one key chokepoint it wouldn’t be as easy.
I concur with you.
For whatever reason, I’ve been dealing with that airport over the last year (even though I live in Austin, TX), and it’s a cakewalk.
Hating life as a Royals fan 365 days a year at Royalscentricity
by Old Man Duggan on Feb 18, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
Lambert is one of my least favorite airports in the US
It has the least to do if you are transferring of any airport I’ve ever been in. There seemed to be no local flavor at all, just shitty chain restaurants (by airport standards).
Hating life as a Royals fan 365 days a year at Royalscentricity
by Old Man Duggan on Feb 18, 2011 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
Me too. I travel a ton...
and it’s crap. It’s great the way they always have that one runway working—whether they need it or not. The only good thing about it is that it’s connected to their light rail, which is one of the only things I really like better about St Louis than KC.
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
by setupunchtag on Oct 29, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
If only this had been about Grass Creek, Wyoming
by kcdc1 on Feb 18, 2011 4:59 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
There's a feeling that Grass Creek is a little bit pretentious.
All of those bandwagon Mariners’ fans get under my skin.
@jschnauzer
Bloggin' at http://joepasdoghouse.com
Can't I like/dislike both places?
I was born in Independence, and have lived more of my life in the STL area. They’re both fine, or not fine. Don’t really care about the cities themselves.
I also think an unspoken disagreement between KC and STL
is that St. Louis is mainly (and historically) Catholic, and Kansas City is largely Protestant.
im a catholic private school guy...and i hate stl
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Catholics are a quirky minority in KC
and the norm in STL. If I may be overly broad, KC’s Catholics are mainly Irish, Italian, or Hispanic (more working-class) while STL’s are largely French, German, and Italian (more of a bourgeois-leaning cross-section). It really comes down to the Germans. STL’s Germans are fun-loving, beer-drinking, pretzel-eating Bavarians, and our Germans are dour, Northern, Protestant types who wring their hands and cluck their tongues at our sinfulness.
by mikewormdog on Feb 18, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Are you posting from the 1880's version of the internet?
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 18, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
Alas, I can barely afford
the two bits to use Mr. Morse’s Fine and Dandy Sour Mash Telegraph 3.0. Luckily, a wheelwright gave me five bees (equal to a quarter, for those unfamiliar with authentic old-timey slang) for whipping his unruly dog. STOP
by mikewormdog on Feb 18, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You sir, seem as cool as a cucumber.
Dr. Ausgiano schools me in the classroom and on the field of battle
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Feb 18, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
Have You Ever
Been to KCK? Catholics rule it.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 29, 2011 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I can see that...
StL has more of a rust belt population mix: isn’t it’s african american population also much larger than KC’s?
St. Louis City
historically has a higher-percentage African-American population than KCMO (about 50% to 33%). KCK is about the same as KCMO. St. Louis County (especially parts of North County) also has a large minority population. Because of its meatpacking history, KC has more of a Latin flavor, though, especially if one compares KCK and East St. Louis. There’s no equivalent of a Southwest Boulevard in St. Louis.
My Knowledge May
Be outdated, since I left KCK in 1971, but therewas a large Slavic component to the KCK populace, Croats and Poles mostly. My father, who counted many of them as his friends, referred to them as “hunkies”. Also, most of the wedding receptions I attended were at the Ukranian Hall down at 9th and Central, replete with a polka band. My neighborhood, between Parallel and Wood, was largely Catholic.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 18, 2011 10:55 PM EST up reply actions
One time in St. Louis I met and talked to a Bosnian bartender
Pretty sure they have a nice chunk of Bosnians now. Maybe because of the 90s. Not sure.
by hawkinscm87 on Feb 19, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, 90s refugees
and the KC area has a notable Sudanese refugee population
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
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i'm pretty sure that
anti-Catholicism really didn’t take hold in KC as much as outstate Missouri. Partly due to the Pendergasts (who were Catholic). You had the Klan in Eastern Jackson County. But in the scheme of things, the African-American population in both KC and STL is probably fairly Protestant.
St. Louis County was one of 2 counties to go for Lincoln in 1860, thanks to Germans. So STL probably has a stronger history with European Immigrants than KC.
But STL has had a lot more political power than Kansas City in Missouri politics. No doubt about that. But they both vote for the same side, and there hasn’t been a good turf war in a primary between the two cities in awhile.
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Kansas City is much more conservative than St. Louis although they tend to both lean left
A Democrat from Kansas City is generally viewed as a Republican in St. Louis. Much like a Democrat in Alabama is viewed as a Republican in Massachusetts.
Hating Zack Greinke irrationally since 2010.
hm
the Dems from KCMO are probably just as liberal as in STL. Although Slay is better than Funkhouser. Granted, Funkhouser doesn’t have to really state a party affiliation although he’s a nominal Dem.
Although if you lump in East of 435 with West of 435, the argument is stronger for that.
Another difference then KC and STL. KC elections are nonpartisan, so we’ll get a competitive election in March. STL elections are partisan, and decided in the Democratic primary. So it’s kind of a sunk cost to do primary/general with a partisan system and if STL wants to do partisan elections, then they could do Top-Two. Granted, I think STL Top-Two means “Black Dem v. White Dem” every time.
So how the partisan elections play out is one thing STL has in common with pre-1999 Chicago.
As for the statewide officeholders we have now…
Nixon, Robin, and Zweifel are from STL. I think Schweich is from STL. Koster is from Cass County, and Claire lives in STL but held offices in KC. While Blunt and Kinder are from Springfield and Cape Girardeau. So a slight edge to STL. I think the last Jackson County resident to hold statewide office in MO was Teasdale.
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Nixon is from Desoto
About an hour from STL. His ads for governor played up his farm roots. I don’t think he would identify as a St. Louisan, especially politically.
by thelaundry on Oct 29, 2011 3:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Related Question:
Which event would do more damage to the Cardinals as a franchise, as we head into the next decade?
1 – losing Albert Pujols to free agency
or
2 – signing Pujols to the 10/$300MM deal he reportedly wants
Depends
Most immediate, potential damage would be losing Pujols. If they took the money they would have allocated to Pujols and spend it wisely, though, then they could be OK. Signing him to that type of deal would make them at least OK until 2015 or so, and then could become a crippling, talent-and-money-sucking abyss of a deal for 2016 and beyond. If they don’t fix their farm system by then, a Pujols-decline at $30M per year would basically destroy their franchise.
Couple that with a sustained rise by the Royals, and indeed, the tide could very well turn in KC’s favor in THE BATTLE FOR MISSOURI’S BASEBALL SOUL!
by Sweep_the_Leg on Feb 18, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
I think that it's already trying to divide their fanbase.
Which coincidentally makes me very happy…
What would any of us do in that situation with their money? I’d sign him for whatever he wants, but I like spending other people’s money.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 18, 2011 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
The fan base is actually pretty united on this
They want Pujols at any cost
by YouDon'tPhaseMeGobble on Feb 19, 2011 11:11 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Everything I've read and heard from them in the Springfield area
is that they think he’s a greedy bastard. They think they paid too much for him already. In fact I posted on a thread on here the other day an exact quote from one of them. He basically said that for $30million per, that they could sign THREE all-stars. Someone basically confirmed my thinking that they were idiots by saying that they couldn’t sign 3 Jose Guillens for that. For being the “best fans in baseball,” they’re dumbasses.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 19, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
they always feel like they're owed something....
allegedly theyve had a couple of players take less money to stay, so now they feel like everyone owes that to them. He should be paid a premium for living in that dump of a city
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 19, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions
The 10y/$300mil Contract
It’ll turn into an albatross. In 5 years, Pujols won’t produce at the level that he is now (and if he does that supports my opinion that he’s juiced), but he’ll be good. Any way you look at it, Pujols is going to decline. Paying $30 million a year for a guy who might hit .300.350/.480 at some point in the length of that contract is bad. Does anyone think he’ll be producing as much as he is now in 10 years?
I did a very cursory study...
and found that most of the hitters who compared to Albert, and even hitters in general, got 60-70% of their total career WAR before 31 and 30-40% after that, with most being at a 2:1 ratio. So if Albert had a 82 WAR up until he was 30, you can expect he’ll put up 40-50 WAR the rest of his career (and he’s already gone thru 5.5 of that this year). So is 45 WAR over 10 years at $300 million worth it?
If women only slept with nice guys...guys would only be nice. And they don't. And we're not.
by setupunchtag on Oct 29, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
At today's roughly $5mil per WAR, no
Assuming the cost of a win remained at 5mil for that 10 years, he’d be overpaid by 75 million. I think it’s a safe bet that salaries as a whole will rise over the next 10 years, so it may not look as bad if he is still a 4 WAR player in 5 years if a win costs 7 million at that point, you essentially break even. But if he’s a 2-3 WAR player in the final years of the contract, the market would have double or more than double to make 30 close to market value. A scary thought for a Royals fan, but certainly possible.
Maybe Pujols doesn’t care about perception, and maybe he shouldn’t. But the WS title puts him in the position of looking like an a-hole if he turns down a credible offer from the Cardinals. It’s not like he could argue that he left because he wants to win.
by thelaundry on Oct 29, 2011 4:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm 51, and my family moved from STL to KC when I was 6
I can distinctly remember the attitude we encountered when returning to STL for holidays, etc. It was a “How do you like it in that cowtown?” vibe.
Hell, they came just short of wondering if we had indoor plumbing and paved roads – or at least it seemed that way.
Sort of amusing, I suppose – but once I grew up, I learned to resent that snobby attitude a LOT. I’m getting mad just thinking about it, and these were my RELATIVES! Just think how much contempt I have for other St Louisans!
"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009
"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876
I can relate to this
I was born and bred in Calgary, all my mom’s family are from Toronto. To Ontarians, everything out west is all unreconstructed backward cowboy hick country, where everyone wears Stetson’s and likes rodeo and every other cliché you can think of.
They of course, are just soft.
Just Like I
Like my women.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 18, 2011 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Unreconstructed?
Did something destroy it?
And what do you think of Nova Scotians?
by hawkinscm87 on Feb 19, 2011 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
Another comment
Try arguing that the arch could just as easily belong in KC. (Pony Express, rail hub, etc. that served nearly as well the cause of manifest destiny as anything STL did).
"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009
"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876
I've used this argument before
I always bring up the fact that when I was a child, I never got the option to start my journey west in St. Louis while playing Oregon Trail. It was either KC, St. Joseph, or Independence.
They get flustered and all other points they have soon become invalid.
And Todd Haley said, "Let there be wins," and there were wins;
And Todd Haley saw the wins, and it was good.
by NaturalsLight on Feb 18, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Kansas City actually had the title "Gateway to the West" for a very long time
It was a slogan on the Kansas City Star-Tribune newspaper in the latter parts of the 19th and into the 20th century.
Jackson County and the surrounding area was the centralized hub of commerce and trade dating all the way until the early years of the 20th century. It was the launching point for many of the Trails out west, including the Santa Fe, California, and Oregon (hence "Santa-Cali-Gon Days Festival).
The American Royal was a livestock showcase during that sprung up during the latter part of the 19th century as a means for cattlemen to show off their goods, sell, buy, and trade their stock. It is widely considered to be one of the most important and influential showcases for the beef industry, and is one of the main precursors of Kansas City barbecue. Kansas City was the last destination for much of the cattle livestock out west before it was slaughtered and shipped east in ice boxcars.
The construction of the Gateway Arch is really what shifted the title of “Gateway to the West” away from Kansas City, and it has one of the most dubious purposes ever: In the 1930’s, Luther Ely Smith wanted to revitalize the St. Louis riverfront district. So, he proposed building a memorial. The mayor liked the idea; they used a couple of New Deal faculties set up by FDR to get basic funding for the project. There were a series of delays due to land grants, the necessity to relocate, repurpose, and demolish buildings. They had to move the railroads. Thirty years later it was under construction. It is officially recognized as a commemoration for:
The Louisiana Purchase and subsequent westward expansion
The first civil government west of the Mississippi River
And the debate over slavery caused by the Dred Scott case (?)
Perhaps the most interesting thing about St. Louis in regard to American History is that it is very rarely regarded, as Kansas City is considered to be the historical start of westward expansion, as it was the largest, westernmost city at the time (excluding the already-established coastal cities) and when you went back east, you had a tendency to skip over St. Louis and head straight to Chicago.
We should trade for Vance Worley.
by JKWard on Oct 29, 2011 4:29 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Will
I seriously wonder, if you were interested, if this wouldn’t make a GREAT topic for a book of some sort. You know, an exploration of cultural differences, etc. between two cities that seemingly should share similarities, but instead are vastly different.
"We're gonna win with pitching and defense" General Manager Dayton Moore, circa winter 2009
"Where did all these Indians come from?" General George Armstrong Custer, circa summer 1876
I bet one has been written
or at least an essay/article
Bill James wrote about it back in one of the old Abstracts I think
In the epic Royals chapter
of the 1986 Abstract, reprinted in This Time Let’s Not Eat the Bones. He also covered the New York vs Kansas City thing a bit.
Anyone here who has never read it needs to. Period. I don’t care what you have to do to get hold of it.
My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.
Addendum:
That chapter was the longest team chapter Bill ever wrote in the Abstract era, and it wasn’t even close. It was divided into three sub-chapters, and each one was longer than most team chapters ever had been.
My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.
Went to a Cards game
at New Busch three-years ago. Buddy of mine is a huge Cards fan from West-Central Missouri, whole family is. Anyway – got really good, low tickets to see the Cards play the Nationals. Dmitri Young looked like he could just come over to our seats and eat us alive.
Anyway – we’re in the high-brow section of beer-drinkers. The Cardinals are up to bat, they get a hit that scores a run. My friend jumps up and cheers. He was standing for all of 5 seconds when somebody from the row behind him poked him in the back and asked him to sit down. Evidently he was ruining they’re overpriced bar atmosphere. He’s never looked on the Cardinals fans the same. He’s the kind of guy we could win over.
just get a few beers in him and let him listen to Friends in Low Places
seduction completed
by Freneau on Feb 18, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
You're freind has just been targeted for:
Royal Assimilation 2012 ©
Flyiers and Frank White bobble heads are in coming.
Dr. Ausgiano schools me in the classroom and on the field of battle
by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Feb 18, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
I love Kauffman
Went for the first time a few years ago. Unbelievably friendly, inside and outside the park. Of course, I’m used to watching baseball at Fenway.
it will be tough....
I’m not sure what larger city they’d be able to take over. The Royals pretty much have I-70 from the state line until you get close to Columbia. But with so many of Mizzou’s students being from STL, it will be tough to dent the Columbia stronghold. Springfield will be tough with the Cards’ minor league affiliate there. Perhaps having NW Arkansas can bring more fans to the southern part of Mo, but it will be tough. I don’t see it happening, but I don’t necessarily thing that’s a bad sign.
by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Feb 18, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, I think the bigger goal
should be to energize the waning base in KS, NE, IA. Des Moines and Omaha are both relatively short drives from KC, and making their imprint there will be a bigger key. Seven or eight years of being good, and Iowa will forget about the Cubs again, and Nebraska would be reaping the rewards by having competitive O-Royals teams (no, I will not call them that other name yet).
Hating life as a Royals fan 365 days a year at Royalscentricity
by Old Man Duggan on Feb 18, 2011 9:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Des Moines especially
Though they seem like comparable states, Iowa is just so much larger than Nebraska. No one lives in Nebraska. Neb’s population of just 1.8 million is tony compared to Iowa’s 3 million. The Des Moines metro is between 450-600 K, depending on how you want to measure it, and the Royals have always been on the radio there. Nevertheless, there are just no Royals fans in Iowa anymore.
Iowa is totally up for grabs.
They’re mostly Cubs fans up that way for some stupid reason. When I lived in Webster City I went to about as many Twins games as I did Royals. I was a big Kirby Puckett fan. I think the only reason the Cubs do well is the AAA team in Des Moines, and the ease of finding them on TV. Iowa is there for the taking, along with Nebraska I would think.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 19, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed.
Besides, who wants a bunch of cast-off Cardinals fans? Fuck ’em.
Although I will say when they “take over” the K, at least the ones sitting by us in the upper deck are always super nice and respectful of the fact that they are in someone else’s house.
Try going to their place with my family from Chicago...
Not nice at all.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 19, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
i had a couple with a combined one set of teeth
try to fight me and one of my friends in stl one time. then they got arrested…and all of the people around us who saw what happened were really nice.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 19, 2011 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
I usually don't have too much of a problem.
I would guess it was just that it was a Cubs game. I end up going to quite a few games in STL every year. Alot of our vendors have boxes or suites and I end up being schmoozed at the games. It’s not too bad and I usually wear something organizationally Royals just to be a dick.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 19, 2011 3:03 PM EST up reply actions
Bringing in Des Moines would be difficult
With Principal Park and the Iowa Cubs downtown. The Cubs have a following despite their lack of success.
I was definitely taking the Iowa Cubs into account with this.
I think the Royals can actually get on TV in Des Moines though, which is really the key. If the Royals are good and on TV, they’ll have one up on the Cubs, who will just be on TV.
Everyone secretly hates Cubs fans anyway.
Hating life as a Royals fan 365 days a year at Royalscentricity
by Old Man Duggan on Feb 19, 2011 2:39 AM EST up reply actions
The cubs aren't really a problem.
Des Moines is split between the the regional cities. There isn’t too much the Royals could do to win over Cubs fans. But, we could make a serious dent in the Cardinals fans and hold off the Twins fans.
Heck I would just be happy if they switched away from Fox Sports Stl.
In football, the big teams are the Chefs, Bears, and Vikings. The Rams aren’t even on the radar.
Surely you knew what you were inviting here
I went to school in Columbia, and the majority of the townies definitely preferred the Cardinals. I was comfortable using that as my statewide litmus test.
Can we win them back? Hard to see us being consistently better than the Cardinals, and thats what it would take. Lets be honest, the Royals have never been marketing aces.
By the way, the real problem with St Louis? Too many Catholic schools. Imagine what KC would be like if there were 10 Rockhursts* churning out citizens every year.
*I went there, as did most of my current best friends. Not saying catholic school is bad, but it definitely produces people more likely to be a certain way. That “way”, as it were, is prevalent in St. Louis as a whole.
I meant that to be italicized.
God damn it.
And yeah, I’m mad at myself, but I’m not gonna say “reply fail.” I refuse to.
i went to rockhurst....
and im pretty sure i should be offended by that. However, when there are that many ‘elite’ private schools, it really waters it down. No bullshit…Rockhurst is a great place but if you have 10 times as many people thinking they were one of the ‘elite’ it would seemingly lose its luster.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2011 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
I Went To
Wyandotte when we thought we were elite. It was beginning to totally thug out, but the “upper crust” of KCK still thought that way.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 18, 2011 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
my dad student taught in wyandotte in the early 80s
he said it was a completely different place back then
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
Class Of '73
Here, though I graduated from Topeka West. Long story.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 18, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn't Wyandotte winning crazy amounts of state titles at that point (or shortly before)?
An old basketball coach came to talk to one of my classes and he (a Wyandotte grad) led off with this: “The pride you feel for your high school is how we used to feel about Wyandotte. When I met a kid from another school, I felt sorry for him.”
That’s pretty cool, right there.
!4 Of 15
Straight state basketball titles under Walt Shublom, who moved on to assistant coach for Norm Stewart. I had Robert Gray in my gym class. He was incredible, especially since he was an ungainly backup center at Northwest when I was in 7th grade there. He was smart and went to Cal Poly on scholarship.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Oct 29, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
If the Royals were ever winning again I think people would be
shocked at how many Royals fans came out of the woodwork. So many people loved George Brett and those 70s and 80s teams but just can’t take all the losing and players leaving town. If KC won for a few years and proved there were capable of stocking young talented players while signing a few along the way KC would be just as good a baseball city as St. Louis.
Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com
that would be chaos....
you cant have two ‘best fans in baseball’
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 19, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
I say not a chance
Middle mo is cards for baseball and chiefs for football. Even st louis has a surprisingly large chiefs contingency. Also a lot more jayhawks than you’d think.
by YouDon'tPhaseMeGobble on Feb 19, 2011 11:06 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
"you mean i have to buy something blue to root for the rams?
fuck it. i’ll just root for the chiefs."
b/c they're fair weather dbags
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 19, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
Absolutely not.
Won’t happen for a decade, at least.
The Cardinals won the world series for the second time in five years. The Royals won 71 games. Even if the Cardinals fail to make the playoffs next year and the Royals win the Central, the perception that the Royals suck will still remain. It will take sustained success for the Royals to change the country’s opinion of them. But if the Cards are still winning it won’t matter.
For the Royals to win over Missouri, they need to have a sustained run somewhat equivalent to what the Cards have done this decade AND the Cardinals need to fall back to mediocrity or worse. The Royals can win over other parts of the midwest, sure. But Missouri? No way.
St, Louis is the Philadelphia of the Midwest
by Olentangy on Feb 18, 2011 10:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Exactly what I was thinking!
And what’s with this high school shit? I’d think you guys who mentioned it were crazy except that so many of you did. Weird.
It does seem, as an outsider, that St. Louis has that little brother complex. I don’t feel like KC has that. If anything I think Kansas City is kind of an underachiever. Probably why I fit here so well. I had a friend from Wichita who lived here for a while that said that KC was a big city that thought of itself as a small town while Wichita was a small city that thought of itself as a big. I thought there was some truth to that (at least the KC part, I’ve only ever driven through Wichita, so I have no idea what their thing is).
ive always thought that KC was a biggish town with a small town feel....
and we are comfortable with that whereas STL is a biggish town that badly wishes it was one of the big boys.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 18, 2011 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Another Way To
Put that is (and I did not coin this) STL is the westernmost eastern city, and KC is the easternmost western city. I never saw a conflict. They are what they are.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 18, 2011 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting tidbit about Saint Joseph, Mo. relating to that
St. Joseph has always been referred to as the northernmost Southern city.
Hating Zack Greinke irrationally since 2010.
I've heard this as well, growing up in St. Joe
But, going to college in Maryland, many do not realize how far north the Mason-Dixon line really is. There are some locales in northern Maryland that give St. Joe a run for its money in “southernness” and are on about the same latitude.
The east-west portion of the Maxon-Dixon line
separates PA from MD.
We now return you to your previously scheduled discussion of MO.
STL suffers from Spain complex.
It’s important to remember that once upon a time, St. Louis was the fourth-largest city in the entire country, and had the arts and culture befitting their status. So they’ve got sort of a genetic memory of being important, and they sometimes fail to comprehend that they’re now largely irrelevant.
My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.
by jonfmorse on Feb 19, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And the World's Fair
It would hard to argue that wasn’t STL’s peak. 800,000 lived in STL proper in 1950, down to 350,000 now. A lot of cities have had similar drops, but in college we learned that STL is a true case study in white flight and urban sprawl.
by thelaundry on Oct 29, 2011 4:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Totally agree with this.
I went to Chicago and stayed downtown last summer. Then went to STL on the way home and they are dwarfed by Chicago. They can’t stand being little brother…
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 19, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Screw St. Louis
We went there for a show my kid wanted to see and they were all talking about KC like it was the smallest little hicktown with one stoplight. They were all talking about how great the nightlife was and I told them they’d have to bring their A game to match the craziness of our little cowtown. So, my wife and I hit up their “hotspots” on a Friday night. BORING!!! We are WAY different here than they are. They had the techno going in one place with all these crazy looking people. Then, the next place was filled with hippies that were in vegetative states. Then, in the third “hotspot”, there was nothing but yuppies. And for the love of God, don’t ask them for a GOOD beer! They like that Bud and Bud Light crap. I said, “That’s okay for the ladies, but I like the taste of beer. Give me a Boulevard or an MGD.” I’m also a right-wing Libertarian, so that didn’t really help me much either. I’ll never go back.
Funny story though. The Applebees in downtown St. Louis has a picture of the 1985 World Champion St. Louis Cardinals. I shit you not! I actually asked to speak to the manager and informed him that the Cardinals did not win that World Series and that it is actually more embarrassing for them because everyone knows it. He blew it off like a douchebag. Imagine that.
Hating Zack Greinke irrationally since 2010.
by royaldaddy on Feb 18, 2011 11:23 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I have to hand it to them.
Schlafly is producing some great beer.
by hawkinscm87 on Feb 19, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
I hate saying this but
Schlafly goes in my “nothing special” category as far as the product is concerned. As far as the company itself though, top-notch.
by YouDon'tPhaseMeGobble on Feb 19, 2011 10:49 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
If you didn't take your kits to The City Museum
You missed out. That trumps everything in Kansas City. In a way, I’d consider it to be the best man made thing in the USA. Seriously it will blow you away.
by YouDon'tPhaseMeGobble on Feb 19, 2011 10:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Unfortunately, the guy who created the
City Museum just died while working on another crazy creation. His name is Bob Cassilly I think.
by thelaundry on Oct 29, 2011 4:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You are correct.
Cassilly was a creative genius. I am sorry he did not get the opportunity to turn the old Arena into an aquarium.
I moved to st louis two years ago
Since living here, I’ve noticed that while EVERYONE is a Cards fan, noone knows too much about baseball in general. A Royals fan is generally a hardcore stat-head, while a Cardina fan thinks Yadi Molina is an offensive beast.
also I get a lot of hatred aimed at me for wearing a KC hat, whereas I would have thought it would be more ridicule. They never will get over 1985.
by YouDon'tPhaseMeGobble on Feb 19, 2011 1:30 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I must add
Outwardly I have to cheer for the cards to an extent when they aren’t playing the royals. It is a social standard I’ve learned to deal with. But in my gut I love being surrounded by a bunch of whiny cards fans when they lose. Especially when they lose to the royals, that’s the best.
by YouDon'tPhaseMeGobble on Feb 19, 2011 11:18 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
you don't have to do anything
In my mind, hating on St. Louis has enhanced my friendships and made them more enjoyable.
I laughed in my best friend’s face when Holliday dropped that fly ball in 2009. He cried and whined all night, but he’ll still be my best man when I get married.
I love bringing Cards fans down to our level of misery.
http://www.royalskingdom.blogspot.com
http://www.chiefscommand.com
My problem is I work at a bar
My income can depends on it
by YouDon'tPhaseMeGobble on Feb 19, 2011 1:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I wore a red Naturals Moustakas shersy to Busch last summer.
I jedi mind fucked those idiots!
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Feb 19, 2011 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I routinely wear Royals gear around in STL
And have never gotten more than good natured ribbing, including Busch Stadium during interleague. What happens more often is KC people come up and say “Wow, you have a lot of guts to wear that around here.” I chalk it up to a combination of indifference and pity. Or maybe I give off more of a badass vibe than I give myself credit for. Doubtful.
by thelaundry on Oct 29, 2011 4:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Even today they still feel robbed about 1985.
I work about 25 miles from STL and was again reminded about Denkinger.
St Louis = East, Kansas City = West
Really enjoyed this article, perspective and the memory jog.
I live and grew up in KC, but lived in St Louis for a year, and have spent many weeks there in the last 20 years, and I spend I’ve spent at least 30 weeks a year in pretty much every major city in the US (and alot of medium and small, as well). From my perspective the two cities represent the style and shape of larger metro areas to the East and West.
First, in Eastern cities you go IN to town to do things; the zoo, the musuems, the best shopping, the ballparks, often the airports are located much closer to the central core. In Western cities things are more spread out, and the previously mentioned amenities are further away from the central core.
Second, Eastern cities, partly because they are more densely populated, have better public transportation often featuring some sort of light-rail. Western cities rely far more on busses and interstate highways (with the notable exceptions of Portland, and SF—which is very much and Eastern town on the West Coast).
Third, because they are usually much older, Eastern cities are often built along rivers, creeks, ridges and landforms, so they often grow in a wagon-wheel pattern with concentric circles of growth areas, whereas Western cities with more room, much of it flatter, and layed out at a different time, are more likely to be on a parallel and perpendicular grid and grow more in blocks, making traffic and directions a bit easier than in Eastern cities.
Fourth, Eastern cities have better, more well-defined ethnic areas and neighborhoods than in Western cities.
I always say, Kansas City is the first Western town you run into going West. St Louis is the first Eastern town you run into going East. Kansas City is a big town. St Louis is a small city, and the peoples’ personalities reflect this, as well.
I was an RA in the dorms in 1985, at MU during the WS, which was ground zero for the clash between the Cards and Royals camps. At the beginning it was a blast, both sets of fans just elated to be in and happy for the state that it was ALL US, and we were the lucky ones to be right in the very middle of it. When St Louis was up 2-0, though, the magnanimous behaviour was replaced with chants of “SWEEEP!” and the taunting began in earnest, and it surprised me how bad a winners so many STL fans were. It was very much,“Back in your place, KC! Assume the position of lesser sister. We TOLD you we were better”. So the victory was all the more sweet to the out-numbered KC fans (2-1, I’d say) and all the more bitter to STL. Apologies for the long post.
"...'Whachoo readin' for?'" - Bill Hicks
by setupunchtag on Feb 19, 2011 10:36 AM EST reply actions 8 recs
I will say that
New Busch has to be a lot better than Old Busch (which, honestly, was a circular mess)..
so one could see why Cardinal fans went to Kauffman Stadium when they played at Busch Sr. Sorta like the Twins fans going to KC when they had the Metrodome.
And on the topic of regional power… KC and STL police departments are both under state control. STL is moving towards local control, but there’s nothing for KC there, which seems a bit questionable. (Granted, it would not stun me if the Republican players like Rex S. backed local control in exchange for Slay not emphasizing his support for the E-Tax… while in KC, Funkhouser is too much of a lame duck to make any deals to get local control in KC)
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
Sponsor, 2011 Royals Alumni Fantasy Camp/Royals 5th Starter Star Search
Another piece of evidence as to STL's suckitude:
Did you know STL is where they filmed most of Escape from New York? How much of a dilapidated shell of a city do you have to be to get used as a stand-in for a bombed-out futuristic New York?
My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.
Driving the point home:
They sent Barry Bernardi, their location manager (and also associate producer), “on a sort of all-expense-paid trip across the country looking for the worst city in America,” producer Debra Hill remembers.
My new blog: Those Other Guys. Critiques welcome.
by jonfmorse on Feb 19, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
i think we have better fans
it takes true fans to stick with a team that hasn’t been good in 20 years… and we also have better football fans too the chiefs game this year in stl was packed with chiefs fans it looked like arrowhead east it was amazing. but my point is anybody can be a fan of a good team that’s easy ex. yankees, red sox etc…. but if your a fan of a losing team that is much harder to do…. and besides we have better national landmark in the liberty memorial i mean come on a arch vs. a flaming tower honoring wwi no contest there
to say that the chiefs fans are better b/c they filled the dome....
then dont you have to do the same with the cardinals fans filling kauffman year after year?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 19, 2011 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Better fans?
1981 and 1995 are the last two years the Cardinals have been under the league average in attendance.
The Royals have not been above league average in attendance since 1990.
(stats from baseball-almanac.com)
Have you read anything that anyone has said on here?
I'm a 14 year old freshman in high school with a love for all things Royals and Packers.
2012 is the year we shine.
It's ok dude,
He’s from STL and this was 8 months ago…
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Oct 29, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I, for one, would put Royals fans right up there with the "best in baseball"
What is overlooked by national media outlets is that, just like Cardinals fans, Royals fans are wide-reaching and drive for hours to come to a game. Especially when the Royals haven’t been contenders like the Cardinals, that shows dedication. Cardinals fans are called “very knowledgable” of the game… sit next to a true blue Royals fan at the K and there’s really no better baseball conversation. I’ve been to Royals games late in the season, the team is out of it, it’s fairly cold, and the score is 12-2 against the Royals and the fans at the K are still cheering — that, again, is dedication.
I grew up a Cincinnati Reds fan and that is still my favorite team, however, I lived in Kansas from 2004-08 and attended probably about 30-35 Royals games in that time span and adopted the Royals as my AL team. I think all fans would like to think that their franchise has the “best fans” but it just not true. When I go to Reds games, most of the people sitting around me are casual fans, they aren’t watching the game, and they have no clue about what going on.
The Cardinals have gotten so much media exposure that I think individuals with St. Louis ties (Joe Buck, Bob Costas) and historic St. Louis based publications like The Sporting News have helped to develop this notion that Cards fans are “the best in baseball.” When the Royals get back into contention hopefully someone will step up to the plate for them.
by Deaner on Feb 19, 2011 5:26 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
St. louis always seemed like a big 10 kinda town. Sort of self-gradulating and wanting to be self-absorbed just like the big east (NY, Bos) but not getting quite the exposure. the big 10 had to name its two divisions and named them legends and leaders. That about sums up the big 10 to me
My stories a lot like yours only more interesting because it involves robots!
of course not....
they never wanted to join the big 10….it was all just gamesmanship to get rid of the huskers….
puke
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Feb 20, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
The big thing that ticks me off about Cardinal fans
is that probably no World Series runner-up showed less class than did the Cardinals, Herzog, and their fans in 1985.
You Show The
Class you have in any circumstance.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Feb 21, 2011 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
I put our baseball heritage
up against STL or any “old baseball” city anyway. Maybe the Royals are only 40 years old vs the Cards 100, but during the first half of the century we DID have a baseball team. The best baseball team of all, and it would have totally dominated all the major league teams if we’d been allowed to play them. We had the best pitcher who ever played the game, (now resting in Forest Hill near my grandparents). He would have absolutely shredded Babe Ruth in the early 30’s, and any other hitter in the 30’s and 40’s.
There’s a lot of sense that KC isn’t a historic baseball city like STL (and NYC, etc), and it’s simply false.
And one other thing… I like being a Royals fan right now. It’s been boiled down to the diehards who know what they’re talking about.
by Duane Cunningham on Feb 21, 2011 2:28 PM EST reply actions
My take on the "high school" thing
I grew up in St. Louis, but now have lived in KC for nearly 7 years.
I think it is unfortunate that a lot of people used to use that as a way to pre-judge a person – and probably still do.
I have always thought that asking the age old high school question (to me at least) was more about finding out if you have any common thread with that person; not seeing it as a way to divide immediately, but a way to connect immediately. Such as: “Oh, you went to Vianney, did you know Bob Smith when you went there? Oh awesome! He’s my cousin!”
by stlfan on Feb 23, 2011 10:54 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Right you are Sir
It is a connection thing, a conversation starter. It is kinda sad how this whole blog just turned into a STL bash. STL does not bash KC. I for one welcome some good competition. Its good for baseball and its good for its fans. People on this forum just need to grow up.
I'm a Cardinals fan in Springfield,
and I find this conversation interesting. I mean, I’ve never seen there as being a rivalry, but then again I’m not actually from St. Louis so that dislike between KC and StL is something I’ve never experienced. I’ve also kind of just quietly rooted for the Royals because your stadium is beautiful and all of the DEDICATED Royals fans I’ve ever met are great fans. They know their baseball and are as devoted as anybody about their team. I would disagree with the notion in here that St. Louis has a bunch of fair weather fans, like the Royals don’t or something. I go to Missouri State and a lot of people from KC I meet essentially say “Ya, I’m from KC so I’m a Royals fan, but I don’t really follow baseball.” It’s those fans that give a bad impression of your fan base when, in fact, it’s just because EVERY team has casual, mildly interested fans. I would rank, in terms of quality, the KC fan base pretty high up there even if right now it isn’t that big at the moment.
However, I would assert that Cardinals fans are the best in baseball, but I’ll admit that’s just because I AM a Cardinals fan.
2006, best year of my life. StL Cardinals AND Indy Colts win their championships.
Yes, it is.
The majority of Springfield is Cardinals fans for baseball and Chiefs fans for football (personally I’m a Colts fan since I used to live in Indiana, but that’s beside the point). Many people find this contradictory, but there’s a pretty good explanation for it that I’d be more willing to get into if I wasn’t dead tired and just running on adrenaline right now. Anyway, yes, Springfield is almost entirely Cardinals.
2006, best year of my life. StL Cardinals AND Indy Colts win their championships.
Springfield is probably 95% Will.
I can’t even explain why I hate talking to them about baseball either. they make these big profound statements about how great they are without ever giving an example. Kinda like I just did right there.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Oct 29, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Were Joplin and Springfield more mixed when the royals were good?
Seems like there should be more royals fans there
Yep. AA
There are pockets of fans for the Royals here, but it’s dead on Cards country. That guy that holds up all of the signs at the STL games? He’s the Dominos Pizza franchise guy from this area. Good customer of mine, but I don’t even acknowledge him during baseball season unless he wants to buy something. When I used to consult dealerships, I called on Joplin and there were definately more KC fans there than Springfield. It’s weird. When we moved here from COMO, I was shocked at the Cardinal love and lack of Royals fans. It’s just gotten worse since the construction on Hammons Field.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Oct 29, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, the sign guy, Prather?
Ya, he goes to a lot of the MSU Bears games too. A lot of Bears fans can’t stand him.
2006, best year of my life. StL Cardinals AND Indy Colts win their championships.
Marty's actually a pretty good guy.
I’ve really gotten to know him the last few years and I’m at my fair share of those basketball games with him, but he gives me a ton of shit. He’s a Buckeye and I’m a Hawkeye so there’s that too.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Nov 1, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Joplin is a little more mixed.
STL has reached out to them all year about the tornado relief in a big way. The Royals have too, but it doesn’t get the pub that the Cards do.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Oct 29, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Hell, SE Kansas has a large number of Cards fans.
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Quick Thoughts:
1. I’m a Royals fan, and I don’t hate the Cards.
2. I still have my ‘85 WS jacket (I was 5).
3. St. Louis and Chicago are both nice cities.
4. There really is no rivalry between KC and STL as far as I can tell, nor is there a real reason to have one other than proximity and leftover bad blood from 85, which STL washed away with several WS appearances since then.
5. The only teams I really can’t stand are the Raiders and the Broncos.
6. Hell, I don’t even really mind the Tigers, Indians, or Twins either. I hate the White Sox, but I don’t know why.
I dunno. I think I’m saying that KC hasn’t really earned the right to be rivals with anyone. Hopefully they do, soon. Seeing and hearing and feeling the joy my friends from STL and on TLR’s face there at the end made me want the Royals to win so badly it made my stomach clench up.
Managing Editor at Beyond the Box Score and MLB Daily Dish. Follow me @justinbopp
The problem I have is with the Cardinals fans
as a whole. Individually I can deal with. I don’t even really mind the city of St. Louis. That’s irrelevent. The Cardinals fans though…
Anytime you say we are the “Best Fans in Baseball” you are essentially saying “We are Better than Everyone Else and We Know It”, which is ridiculously pretentious and, unfortunately for them, untrue.
You think that if the Cardinals had the sustained suck that the Royals have had that they would fill up Busch as much as KC fills up Kauffman? Do you think that they would have built a nice park like PNC Park in Pittsburgh and attended games like them? No way.
by Yodazilla on Oct 29, 2011 6:47 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
These are my thoughts exactly
On sports talk radio in St Louis last night, I heard someone say “The city of Saint Louis is so hungry for a Championship”. I wanted to punch the city of Saint Louis in the face.
by YouDon'tPhaseMeGobble on Oct 29, 2011 6:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Several years ago I reached the conclusion
that baseball’s best fans were the 3000 or so left in Montreal when it was clear that MLB would not field a competitive team and was going to leave at the first available opportunity.
Anyone who owns season tickets the past couple of years in Miami or Houston is a damn good fan IMO.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Nov 1, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I met a lot of people from St. Louis at KU
They were all pretty much OK. The ones we didn’t like were some of the people from Chicago who came because KU was cheap, had a thriving Greek system, and had a good basketball team, and they were too dumb to get into Illinois. A friend of mine who don’t take no shit from nobody nearly had it out with a bunch of Chicagoites who kept unplugging the jukebox at this bar we were at. It would have been ugly because he was the president of the KU karate club.
St. Louis considers itself to be more important nationally than it really is today. It used to be the fifth biggest city in the country, and now it’s just a midsized Midwestern metro area. They haven’t gotten used to their drop in importance. Kansas City doesn’t have as many pretentions. It thinks of itself as what it is, a small-to-midsize Midwestern-Western metro area.
The Cardinals are much more established across the Midwest and the Mid-South than the Royals. The Royals could certainly raise their attendance to two and a half million, as it used to be in the late ‘80s, but we can’t compete with the Cards’ tradition, not even if we get a good team in the next couple of years.
As for the ‘85 series, at least our manager and his hothead Dominican pitcher didn’t get kicked out of Game 7 for being sore-losing assholes. Somehow the Cards fans always forget about Game 7. Your manager thrown out of the game, sent to the showers. What an embarrassment.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
by Juancho on Oct 29, 2011 8:16 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Similar group of Chicago kids at Iowa... From what I've heard
Although theres also elements of envy towards them… As they’re all supposedly “rich” and hotter
In May I was at Winslow's BBQ before a KC/STL game
and the manager raised a good point about 1985 that I didn’t think about. His reply to Cardinal fans who complain about Denkinger was, “Why didn’t you guys win Game 5?”
I hadn’t thought that away, but the Cardinals blew their opportunity to clinch in STL before the series returned to KC. Denkinger should be irrelevant to 1985 World Series discussions.
I wonder if the impact of fantasy sports will ever effect baseball like it has the NFL.
What I mean is that other than my team or two that I really love, I find myself rooting forl players as individuals. This leads to more merchandise sold, etc…People tend to follow players that they are fans of these days in the NFL and even in the NBA. How many Washington Wizards jerseys were sold with the name Jordan on the back? Look at how many bandwagon Vick fans there are. I hate the Cardinals, but love me some Albert Pujols. Am I in the minority here? Would one of these kids like Hosmer or a big name FA have the same impact on increasing our fanbase? The only way to truly increase it is to grab these bandwagon guys. The Miami Heat sell a ton of merchandise these days…
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Oct 29, 2011 10:34 AM EDT reply actions
I think
it’s a thing that’s taught to people as we grow up, and we hold onto it from habit.
Everything in our lives focuses on how someone else is bad, evil, or “they suck.” From high school rivalries, college sports, politics, wars, etc. “Fuck these people.” Why? “BECAUSE!” That’s about as deep as it usually goes.
People need someone/something else to hate or blame, or else they’ll realize how much where they’re at sucks. It pretty silly overall, and probably a net harm.
Obviously, you are not a golfer.
I really don't care about winning fans over....
Those that have suffered through the lean quarter-century should enjoy the inevitable Royals success with others that stayed with the team.
If a few more fans want to jump back on the bandwagon, they can go sit in the back.
As for Saint Louis….sounds French. Explains a lot…
/tweeting.... @displacedsptsfn
I love St Louis
Actually no, no I don’t… my alcoholism loves Sauget though.
by NobodyFsWDeJesus on Oct 29, 2011 4:37 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
You have to watch yourself in Sauget
Especially if you’re drunk. To paraphrase Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the organization that runs that town, but I assure you it’s not the Boy Scouts.
by thelaundry on Oct 29, 2011 4:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I spent a good part of my weekend at a "trial college" seminar for Missouri lawyers (you're all jealous, I know)
One of the people in small group “breakout” sessions was from STL. Upon discovering one of the other people in the group was also from STL, his first question was…you guessed it: “What high school did you go to?” AMAZING. I mean, everyone there was not only an attorney, meaning they had all gone from high school, to college, to law school, through a bar exam, and into their first jobs; but almost everyone there was in their 30’s or 40’s, many with their own firms, and all with significant experience in a variety of practice areas. But what this guy was most interested in was where this other attorney went to high school.
Yeah, but that kind of "sizing up"
isn’t even done with the information that would be most relevant and current. You’d think he’d at least start out with “What firm are you with?” or “What kind of practice do you have?” Either one of those will tell you volumes more information about the person’s current professional life/status than “What high school did you attend back when you were 14-18 years old, because obviously that laid the foundation for the only type of person you could possibly become 20-25 years later?”
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 1, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm telling you,
it never ends. I went to college with this girl who is from Salem, MO of all places and now that she’s married to an STL asshole I’ve heard her ask the same thing.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Nov 1, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, I bumped the post key.
David Freese went to Lafayette HS, one of the more stuck-up public high schools in metro St. Louis. If I didn’t have 439 reasons already to cheer for their opponents, his presence on the team would have been plenty.
I wonder if, as soon as Freese was called up...
he walked into the STL clubhouse and immediately started asking all his teammates what high schools they went to…
by Sweep_the_Leg on Nov 1, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
To be honest
In the ‘80s KU was basically Shawnee Mission University, and there was a good deal of asking which high school someone went to, but it wasn’t a particularly snobby thing; it was more just finding out if the person you met went to East or North, and whom you might know in common. (“Oh, yeah, I know Joe Smith, he ran the mile on your track team. I saw him passed out at this East party once.”) Topeka and Wichita weren’t nearly as highly represented because a lot of people from there went to Washburn or Wichita State. Not that many rural students, either; they tended to go to Manhattan. Lots of people from KCMO and the Missouri suburbs.
The most embarrassing and funniest “where did you go to high school” came when I met this guy named Mike in our dorm. Cool guy. He got special permission to take 24 hours a semester so he could finish quicker. His family didn’t have too much money, I don’t think. Worked his ass off six days and then drank too much vodka on Saturday night.
So he says, “I went to high school at Spring Hill.” I say, “I have a second cousin who went to Spring Hill. They have a farm out there. His name’s Brad X.” And Mike says, “Brad X? That asshole?” Cracked me up. He is kind of an asshole. I haven’t seen him for years.
"All the boys think she's a guy
She's got crazy Frenchy eyes."
I'm Prety Sure
Spring Hill was where I played my last organized hardball game. I was on the Topeka All Stars. I could be wrong.
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Nov 2, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
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