Bonds Somewhat Guilty. Does It Really Matter?

by Jeff Zimmerman on Apr 13, 2011 6:16 PM EDT

A couple of other websites I write for were wanting people to cover the Bonds verdict. I just can't get into it. The main charges were if he lied under oath. I just just don't give a rat's ass about subjects on player's personal lives. Tiger's whole break up with his wife wasted a ton broadcast time on real sports that could have been covered. I watch and follow sports for the games, not figuring out who is sleeping with who or who lied at some point. If I was that into gossip or other useless information, I would watch Entertainment Tonight.

Did the trial results matter at all for anything baseball related? The main item for discussion still is if Bonds would get into the Hall of Fame. If he was guilty or innocent, would it really change a voter's opinion of their view of him. They were either not going to vote for him because of the steroids or just didn't care that he took them. I think most people's minds have been made up for years now on players that used steroids, especially when it comes to the Hall of Fame.

The verdict will get plenty of press in the next few days, but I would love to see if anyone actually asks what changes now. In my opinion, not a damn thing changes except that maybe, just maybe, the steroid issue will start coming to an end.

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We can't have steroid abusers getting into the HOF

and ruining the legacy of all the amphetamine users who built its hallowed halls.

Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Opening Day is March 31st!!!

by averagegatsby on Apr 13, 2011 6:18 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs

Yeah but those days were just Boys being Boys

Shootin from the hip, It was the wild wild west. If they had known they were gaining an advantage, they would have stopped that immediately………

Do these effectively hide my thunder?

by splitty on Apr 13, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions

This.

In my opinion, not a damn thing changes except that maybe, just maybe, the steroid issue will start coming to an end.

I’m pretty tired of hearing a bunch of crap about people who aren’t even playing their particular sport anymore. I mean, I didn’t like Favre or Bonds when they were playing…why would I want to hear about them now that they aren’t?

"I DARE you to make less sense."

by dejackso on Apr 13, 2011 6:24 PM EDT reply actions

As I said in the offday thread..

This guy is/was without a doubt a HOFer because of the numbers he put up before the steroid use in the 2000’s…

Do I think he belongs in the HOF – Yes.

Do I think he will get in – No. Because of the principle of the matter. I don’t feel like the voters don’t think he belongs, I think that they will punish him for doing steroids even though he would have been a HOFer anyway.

Bottom line – Some people that take steroids shouldn’t considered for the HOF because their numbers are only good directly because of the roids.. like maybe Manny for an example. Bonds HOF numbers weren’t directly cause of the steroids. They only helped his massive years in the 2000. I don’t think he should be recognized for these numbers if he got into the hall, especially the single season and all-time home run record.

by focs on Apr 13, 2011 6:32 PM EDT reply actions

It's as much about Bonds as a person

As the steroids…they WANT to get him because of his manner and how he carried himself. What he did was horrible, stupid, and a stain on the game. But a bunch of other people did the same, and they’re getting off relatively cheap because they’re nice, or admitted some small use early so it would call off the dogs from investigating further and finding out more.

Meanwhile, well-known bigots like Ty Cobb are still celebrated. Hey, I’ll take the asshole steroid-user over the bigot any day, thanks.

I don’t mind not letting Bonds in if we could be sure all potential HOF’ers that were users don’t get in, but we can’t do that, can we? Otherwise, stop acting like the HOF is this pristine institution w/o amphetamine users, cocaine abusers, etc.

You want optimism? My glass is half full of emptiness.

by DanielSmith on Apr 13, 2011 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions

I'd just like to take a moment

to thank the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the United States Attorney’s Office for the Northern District of California, and any Department of Justice officials or politicians that encouraged the investigation and prosecution of Bonds. As a federal taxpayer, I’m glad I could contribute to the millions of dollars of time, salaries, costs and other government resources expended on the case. TOTALLY WORTH IT, GUYS! Thanks again.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 13, 2011 6:38 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

For the most part I agree with you...

But that applies to the stuff before this case. This is trial isn’t about steroid use its about lying.

Your 2010 Royals Review Fantasy Football Keeper League Champion
Opening Day is March 31st!!!

by averagegatsby on Apr 13, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes, the expense of conducting this trial is a touchy subject, but there is merit,

IMO, in prosecuting an obvious lie/obstruction of justice. Especially when the battle is against “wealthy person” (who is almost certainly in the wrong) using nothing more than money (i.e., a cadre of highly paid lawyers) to try avoid punishment.

The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Apr 13, 2011 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions

did someone mention OJ?

Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Apr 13, 2011 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions

If it were that obvious

he would have been convicted (of the perjury charges). Believe me, the federal conviction rate is insanely high—99% from 2000 to 2005. An obstruction conviction in a federal investigation is the equivalent of going balls to the wall at someone for a disorderly conduct charge in state/municipal court. It’s clear that if this wasn’t Barry Bonds (or Martha Stewart, etc.) the agents and prosecutors involved very likely wouldn’t have gone after him this hard. Believe me, there are plenty of “lesser known” or “less rich” (but still much better off than the average joe) people out there who aren’t pursued nearly as hard as Bonds was. And those defendants (or targets if never actually indicted) have been involved in much more nefarious “core” conduct than buying/taking steroids.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 13, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions

It seemed pretty obvious that he at least lied about

“Only getting injected by a doctor”. The jury was deadlocked at 11-1 on this perjury charge. Of course anything can happen, but if average joe with one lawyer (instead of 13) is in the same spot, does that last juror flip?

The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Apr 14, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions

I may be misquoting with that "13". Maybe it was 7 lawyers.

The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Apr 14, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Strange that nobody is taking that angle

With the deficit being such a hot topic right now

Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life.

by KeepItCopacetic on Apr 13, 2011 6:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

I'm sure the total cost was far less than one week's worth of Tomahawk missles in Libya

by upamtn on Apr 13, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions

True

Then again, people go after earmarks as if they were most of the budget when they’re really such a small part.

Your point is well taken.

Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life.

by KeepItCopacetic on Apr 13, 2011 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Whatever the opposite of rolling in your grave is...

Joseph McCarthy is doing that now

Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.

by PhattStairs on Apr 14, 2011 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions

I only partially agree

With the assertion that nothing off the field matters. I take a strong stance with domestic abuse and violence against women. If the issues are glossed over, it sends an implicit message that these things are okay. If an athlete (or entertainer, like Chris Brown) that kids like does something like this, it’s a good time to draw a line and say “not cool”.

For the consequences of people ignoring this at the expense of sports, I point you to Nebraska football in the 90s, where the team ignored the accusation of sexual assault by Christian Peter, and a few fans even threatened the accuser. (Think this chilling effect doesn’t make it easier to get away with that crap?) This is my example to anybody who says that people don’t start turning a blind eye to this/that it doesn’t matter.

Rant off.

Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life.

by KeepItCopacetic on Apr 13, 2011 6:39 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

agreed

the bigger picture here is the steroid abuse and the cover-ups of same, the lying and cheating and the affect that has on the institution of baseball … does it happen> of course, but that doesn’t make it right

and when we DO turn a blind eye to it all, what message do we send to kids and the rest of society? obviously not a good message, and to me that makes it all the more important that the trials and crackdowns, etc, continue

by upamtn on Apr 13, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions

I think the stakes are lower with, say, steroids

Since the health/legal risks are strictly your own.

Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life.

by KeepItCopacetic on Apr 13, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions

The Bonds trail just matters as much to baseball as

you believe steroids matter to baseball. Some think it is a very important issue, others don’t.

The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Apr 13, 2011 7:07 PM EDT reply actions

But will it actually change anything?

- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …

by Jeff Zimmerman on Apr 13, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions

perhaps not, but it's a guarantee that if nothing at all is done then nothing will ever change

by upamtn on Apr 13, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions

It certainly won't change the past, but at least it was a chance to make players

accountable. If you flout the rules of baseball, you will be caught and punished, even if you are a superstar like Barry Bonds, and even if you have the audacity to lie to a grand jury – that’s what a conviction would have shown. Unfortunately, it’s not the reality.

The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Apr 14, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Should we really be relying on the federal government

to investigate, enforce and adjudicate the rules of Major League Baseball (a private enterprise)?

by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 14, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree that there's some doubt as to whether the government should have been involved at all.

But it did, and there’s no excuse for lying under oath.

Lester Munson’s take (a bit cheesy, but still to the point):
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/columns/story?id=6347688

Any citizen who is caught up in a federal investigation is obligated to tell the truth when federal agents show up to ask questions. It is a fundamental duty of citizenship, and it is the foundation of any federal investigation. A failure to tell the truth is an attack on the federal justice system and should be prosecuted. Most agents and most prosecutors view a failure to tell the truth as something that is almost personal.
If agents and prosecutors looked the other way when Bonds or any other witness offered evasive and misleading testimony, it would damage the entire justice system. The jury’s verdict upholds the integrity of that system, and it is worth the time, money and effort that Novitzky, Nedrow and Parrella invested.

The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Apr 14, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions

to put it another way, Zim, consider the words of Pastor Martin Niemoller

First they came for the communists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

if nobody every speaks up or speaks out, if nobody every does anything or gives a rat’s ass, then it will most assuredly continue unabated … if there are at least SOME consequences than mayne, just maybe, there’s light at the end of the tunnel that leads into the clubhouse of baseball

hey, at least it got Manny to retire

by upamtn on Apr 13, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions

I respectfully disagree

There is a finite amount of resources and the government has to prioritize where to spend its time and money. This case was a vanity project. It was a great opportunity for the US Attorney’s office to get a lot of face time in front of the media.

Politicians spending money we do not have so they can be glory hounds is not a good use of our resources. There are too many things that are way more important to focus on.

by Jacob Mac on Apr 13, 2011 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Yup, it should be prohibited for govt officials to spend tax payers money dealing with sports and leisure

Mitchell should have been impeached for spending so much time (and therefore money) on a stupid baseball report

by GobbleforCyoung on Apr 14, 2011 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions

he should be impeached from what?…His job as a lobbyist? The time and money spent on the stupid baseball report were Mitchell’s (time) and Selig/Baseball’s (money).

Try again.

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Apr 14, 2011 4:31 AM EDT up reply actions

said quote favors the opposite argument...

this was a witch hunt for Bonds…if they put every guy that did ‘roids in the pen (which Bonds won’t do a single day) then no one would be left to speak

Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.

by PhattStairs on Apr 14, 2011 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions

it wasn't so much that he did it, more that he lied thru his teeth, a la Roger the Rocket

… what, that makes him someone worthy of our undying adulation because he ONLY cheated and lied about it, instead of doing something even MORE gawdawful?

yeah, terrific role model there

Go Barry

by upamtn on Apr 14, 2011 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions

This isn't about whether Bonds is a great role model

the court of public opinion (outside San Francisco at least) has resoundingly concluded that holding him up as such is clearly a horrible idea. It’s also not about what actions MLB took regarding him, and whether he was subjected to any consequences within the game. This trial is about the nearly worthless use of millions of dollars of limited public resources to pursue what is one of the most minor federal charges you can throw at a defendant. If MLB wanted to pursue him to this extent, then so be it…that’s MLB’s (a private organization) prerogative. When the federal government uses our tax dollars to do it, then it subjects the U.S. Attorney’s visionquest to a lot more scrutiny.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 14, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions

I guess I'm kind of immune to gov't waste, so this angle doesn't bug me as much.

I look it as a very expensive PSA about lying while under oath. Kind of a “we don’t care how minor or what it’s about but you cannot lie in a courtroom without consequences”

I’m not saying it is a good move by the prosecutors or a decent use of money.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Apr 14, 2011 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Believe me, the overwhelming majority of people charged (or targeted)

with federal crimes will not look to the Bonds case and be deterred from lying.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 14, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions

I know.

But if we’re going to look big picture, does the money spent here really compare to money spent elsewhere?

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Apr 14, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions

Or

consider it a “broken windows” approach, this is the start of a new initiative.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Apr 14, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions

Had Bonds been convicted of perjury, I think it would have been a deterrent.

Instead, it just shows that if you spend enough money, you can blatantly lie under oath.

The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

by SagehenMacGyver47 on Apr 14, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions

Or famous enough to get a single hold out.

Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk

by Warden11 on Apr 14, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Single holdouts happen plenty of times

in non-celebrity-related cases, too. They’re the wildcard in any jury trial.

by Sweep_the_Leg on Apr 14, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions

oh and as awesome as that quote is...

it came from a Hitler supporter…

and his resume screams bipolar disorder, so he was a conservative pacifist?

Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.

by PhattStairs on Apr 14, 2011 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions

Hitler's resume screams bipolar disorder lol

Watching him speak screams manic manic manic….but everyone believed and followed him. Ah, a few can do extraordinary things while manic, too bad they are almost always terribly natured

by GobbleforCyoung on Apr 14, 2011 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions

i wasn't talking about Hitler there...

We know he was, ahem, not right…

I was talking about guy being quoted and for those that missed my point, just go check out the dude’s wikipedia page. He is all over the place.

Was this like when Hellen Keller admitted that maybe her views on communism were skewed becuz she couldn’t see or hear? That is right, a woman that said, “the red star will rise in the east” is on our coinage. America loves hippocracy and hippocracy loves america.

Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.

by PhattStairs on Apr 14, 2011 10:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions

feel free to ream me...

If I got any facts wrong there.

Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.

by PhattStairs on Apr 14, 2011 11:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions

and I don't know how to spell hypocrisy...

I should really never comment from my phone

Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.

by PhattStairs on Apr 14, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions

he wasn't a "Hitlet supporter" for long ...

when Hitler first rose to power nobody in Germany had a clue that he’s end up being the monster that he did … Niemoller admitted he was wrong about Hitler, and THAT makes him bipolar?

I guess I’m also bipolar, because I’ve made mistakes in judgement in the past and changed my mind about people … for example, I actually almost liked Dubya back in 2000 (then he got elected, lied to us about WMD’s, dragged us into the Iraq debacle, lowered taxes for his rich buddies, made sure the country that had a surplus went deep into debt, screwed up education … )

by upamtn on Apr 14, 2011 7:49 AM EDT up reply actions