A concern about Chris Dwyer's mechanics
by Scott McKinney on Apr 5, 2011 11:54 AM EDT
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PrintI was browsing through the pictures from the Futures Game when I came up on one of Chris Dwyer about to throw a pitch.
The potential problem here is that Dwyer uses an "Inverted W" arm action, which many in the pitching mechanics community (which includes many doctors and physiologists in sports medicine) believe puts abnormal strain on the arm and leads to a greater risk of injury. An extended, thoroughly researched and meticulously sourced discussion of this subject can be found here. Mark Prior infamously used inverted W arm action.
Look familiar?
I guess my only point here is that this is something of a concern. The above linked article makes it clear that this kind of arm action isn't necessarily a career killer, nor a guarantee of future Tommy John surgery. But it is worrisome. And I don't reacall having read anything about issues with his mechanics before. Hopefully Kyle Boddy or someone else who knows more about pitching mechanics than I will assuage my fears.
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the dreaded M
I mean “inverted W” which is so much more descriptive
by Freneau on Apr 2, 2011 10:56 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
"Inverted W" sounds much more sinister
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by Scott McKinney on Apr 2, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I've always wondered why it's an "inverted w" instead of "m"
And I think facetiously, you’ve hit on it. It sounds more sinister and more clinical. “He has the M throwing motion” just doesn’t have the same punch as “He has the inverted W throwing motion”
Sure...
…there’s nothing wrong with an “M.” But if something is “inverted,” you might want to fix it.
The same logic would apply to calling it a “sideways sigma”… but sigma is used to represent summation, and if you’re doing summation, there’s a good chance you’re calculating a mean, and if you’re calculating a mean, you might be engaged in advanced statistical analysis. So, the scouts who describe pitching mechanics can’t go around calling it that.
So they say “inverted W.”
The arms on the W almost always go out.
M’s typically don’t look like this: /\/\
And W’s typically don’t look like this: |/\|
Inverted W just seems to be a more apt description.
Both wrong
Sideways Sigma
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 5, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
D'oh... read replies first
(hand head in shame, goes back to working on the Myth of the 1 WAR pitcher)
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by Matt Klaassen on Apr 5, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Wasn't the inverted W lauded for a long time?
And then Prior came along (who many said had perfect mechanics), got hurt a lot, then everyone said “oh no, the inverted W is a death sentence!”
I could be wrong. Just seems like Prior (and now Strasburg) seem to disproportionately affect how people feel about mechanics when they’re just two data points.
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The linked article has a lot of studies from experts showing the added strain and dangerous nature of this kind of pithcing mechanic
So there’s something to it.
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by Scott McKinney on Apr 2, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Studies from experts
Didn’t there used to be studies from experts recommending a good bleeding of bilious humors for whatever ail ya?
Just kidding. However, it does seem like this is a bit of an area where certainty is difficult.
Just from a purely uninformed, unqualified viewpoint, the violent part of a pitcher’s motion doesn’t seem to me to be the point where he has the ball before he begins the forward motion. Just bringing the ball straight back behind your head (I think Maddux did that) may be optimum. Dropping your arm back with your elbow above the shoulder, arm twisted where hand and ball are facing away from you (to your left if a righty, and vice versa), makes you have to turn them back to deliver the ball as you start bringing your arm forward.
But why does where your front, glove arm sits have anything to do with it? You could just as easily have that glove arm staright up and still have to twist your arm back. Further, this part of the motion isn’t that violaent. It is thrusting the arm forward that gives velocity. An twisting your arm behind you isn’t much of a natural motin, but it hardly seems all that taxing. Twisting the arm as you move it forward extremely rapidly, such as with a curve or slider, that seems a helluva lot more stressful. I pitched, not at a pro level, and nothing I did with my arm at that stage ever caused any pain. It was the forward motion that might, on a curve, for example, although i understand maybe something I did in an earlier part of the motion may have led to the stress that led to that pain.
People get repetitive motion injuries from non-violent movements, but not things like labrum tears and torn ulnars, i don’t think.
Finally, that motion seems like it would cause more of an issue for your shoulder than your elbow. And didn’t Prior have shoulder issues? Tommy John is common and usually works. Shoulder issues are much worse as far as coming back.
I thought the underground take on Prior was...
he decided to go to USC, did a boatload of roids and burnt his arm out
that is what a current MLB scout told me
at a game of poker
you be the judge
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this scout at the time was a Cubs scout...
who was a former Blue Jays scout who was adamant that they drafted Reed Johnson who later became a Cub, so I tend to believe what he said, beings all the Reed Johnson stuff checked out…(grittiest player to ever live according to him, which means he will one day be a Royal, I have no doubt about this)
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He never made it to Eaglescout?
Too lazy to do a project probably.
by BrRoyal on Apr 3, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
awesome...
just, awesome. took me a few seconds, and then total LOL.
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question: does it matter what you are doing with the front/glove arm
i mean, it completes the image, but is it relevant?
I remember Kyle Boddy saying it is important that the glove be tucked in tight against the body. The more it moves or flails around during the pitching motion, the more stress it puts…somewhere…and that’s not good.
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by Scott McKinney on Apr 2, 2011 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Just for clarification
The tucked in glove part comes after release. But before release, I think the positioning of both arms affects the strain that is put on the throwing arm when the ball is actually thrown.
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by Scott McKinney on Apr 2, 2011 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
where should it be?
i mean, what other “shapes” do pitchers with less risk of injury make? is it the glove way out in front that’s the problem, or the low arm slot of his pitching arm?
BOOM YOSTED!
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Apr 2, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I think ideally the front arm is mostly straight out with the glove somewhat tucked
And the glove becomes fully tucked as the pitch is thrown. Greinke supposedly has near perfect mechanics and that’s what he does.
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by Scott McKinney on Apr 2, 2011 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
got it, thanks
really, more of a straight-line from back to front, so the action is more linear, right?
BOOM YOSTED!
by Home Run Tony Cogan on Apr 2, 2011 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I think so
It is more complicated than that and I’m a neophyte with regard to pitching mechanics, but as far as arm action, I think that’s the basics.
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by Scott McKinney on Apr 2, 2011 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Front arm
A lot of times, the front arm determines where the ball ends up going. I don’t think the arm has to be straight, but if not, the elbow needs to be going directly toward the target. That’s my personal feeling toward it but it’s from experience.
Once the front arm determines the direction of the throw, you need to get it out of the way at some point. Most people teach you to pull it under but some teach (including Tom House, the Prior mechanics guru) that you leave the glove there and let the body go to it.
I think the big problem is both elbows being up
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by Scott McKinney on Apr 2, 2011 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
If you do a google image search for "Inverted W" its a who's who of pitcher injuries...
C.J. Wilson is a ticking time bomb.
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I like the "eye test" also...
just watching Deuscherer for the first time I thought, “It’s only a matter of time before his arm flies into the stands.”
watching Greinke I think, “He will pitch for 20 years if he wants to.”
And I know nothing of pitching mechanics.
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and btw...
first time I saw Strasburg, I thought his arm was destined for the stands also, thought it would last at least a couple seasons though
I wish I would of known the CJ Wilson and Matt Garza stuff before I drafted them as my 3 and 4 starters
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I'm not disagreeing with you
but I will say this…
The picture of Dwyer isn’t as clear on where he is in the motion as the picture of Prior. IMO, the problem w/ the ‘i.W." isn’t the i.w itself, it is pitchers that get to that position too late. It shouldn’t be taught, but it isn’t a death sentence if the timing isn’t terrible
The biggest problem with Prior is that his front foot is, or is nearly on the ground, and he is still in the ‘iW’. That creates the stress on the shoulder because his shoulder has to work that much harder to catch up to his body.
To me it looks like it may be little earlier in Dwyers mechanics, and it also looks like his front side is loaded a LOT better than Priors (more rotated…the type of pitcher where the ball will just explode out of his hand).
Just my observations
BOOM! ROASTED!
This is correct......
The inverted W position in itself isn’t the problem…….it’s the fact of how it messes up your timing, causes your elbow to be higher than your shoulder plane, etc.
Tucking the glove helps put you in a better fielding position and helps for a more consistent delivery.
by Fernando Vina School of Linguistics on Apr 3, 2011 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
and IIRC Garza is an example of an IW that has been relatively injury-free
So it’s not a guarantee that it will cause problems, just not exactly preferable.
The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Apr 3, 2011 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it just seems like this kind of arm action increases risk. And increased risk does not necessarily mean there will be an injury.
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by Scott McKinney on Apr 3, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
OK, makes sense
not the IW itself but timing and how long you keep it in that position. A lot must depend on the rest of the motion/mechanics.
A couple others w/ inverted W
Smoltz, Wainwright, Strasburg, & AJ Burnett.
The biggest problem w/ the inverted W is the timing problems it creates and a lot of the time that causes more stress on the elbow & shoulder.
I'll look at my videos of him to see if he does this consistently
there was one instance today where Dwyer got caught between going to 1st with a ball and decided to throw home. I don’t know if this is the pitch or not. The Royals scouts started laughing when it happened and it was quite obvious.
Checkout Royals minor league notes at www.14for77.blogspot.com
Saw that and wondered why there was no balk call.
It’s a deceptive move, even if it was an accident.
Inverted W
Just stood up and dry-fired a couple of pitches and the ‘inverted W’ kind of twists and loads the shoulder, feel it in the anterior deltoid. In the picture of Dwyer above, looks like he is throwing a curve and trying to get a little extra rotation on it.
Hm... Bad insurance plan
*checks RR off of list of “potential future employers who only pay in hooters gift certificates and an occasional beer” *
by sterlingice on Apr 3, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Me too
This is one test you can perform yourself. It is more difficult to get into the Inverted W position than it is to have your hands above the elbow (like the “Y” in YMCA).
Of course, I’m 80 years old, so just getting my elbow up to shoulder height is a struggle.
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It is not only the inverted W
It is that, in order to get the speed and break required in the majors, whatever inversion or abduction you use, you are twisting your arm and putting a lot of torque on it. Some positions are harsher to the shoulder, some to the elbow. Your arm just isn’t built to do that crap.
The biggest thing, as mentioned before, is the timing. If your timing is just a little off, your arm is taking some of the pressure that, with proper timing, is transferred to your core and your legs. That is why knee or leg problems or any pull in your core area is not something to fight through.
Years ago, when I tore up my arm, it started with a small knee injury on my front foot. It threw off my timing, and put more pressure on my arms and core. I then got a little ab strain, and almost subconsciously put more of the pressure on my arm. It was near the end of the season when my shoulder started to hurt, and I actually increased the torque on my elbow and wrist on purpose to save the strain on my shoulder. (I was young and stupid and had always had a “rubber arm”) Then I was surprised when my elbow said “screw it! I quit!”
Now in the MLB there are doctors and films and pitching coaches, but it only takes a small adjustment in timing to increase the already intense strain on your arm- whatever part that may be. If your timing already sucks when you reach that level, but you are very good, and don’t have a history of injuries, sometimes they still just let it go and hope for the best.
In the end, even with good form, you are violently forcing an unnatural motion-again and again.
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by KHAZAD on Apr 3, 2011 4:38 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
This post was terrific...
but I hate the idea of “unnatural motion”
so cavemen never threw rocks?
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i dont think they did much
throwing, in our baseball/football style, is not natural/second nature around the world
they talked about it a lot in the movie about baseball in ireland that came out a few years ago… everyone could get the hang of hitting pretty fast, but even the advanced adults all threw in a weird looking way
/anecdotal of course
by Freneau on Apr 3, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Frankly, if Dwyer is in the same breath as Prior or Strasburg,
He’s doing something right. He should keep the MALICIOUS M.
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Saw Dwyer
yesterday and he looked good, kind of unfair to be compared to Montgomery and Duffy, but he could be the third starter behind those two. Stays within himself, showed good command and location, his delivery looked just a bit awkward. For better or worse, he reminded me a little of a left-handed Kyle Davies in his approach and tempo.
A note on Davies, he was tough the first three innings, got softer in the fourth and fifth and should probably have not come out for the sixth. He, and Hoch, are the reasons we need long relievers. Yost doesn’t seem to trust SOS, so I’ld suggest sending O’Sullivan down in a couple of weeks and bringing Teaford up as the long lefty. He would have been handy yesterday for the sixth. Teaf is getting old and we need to get some use from him and showcase him for a trade. Bet the Angels would like a few of our AAA pitchers so they could say they had a bullpen.
Prior's looks much worse
I think the bend in the elbow was more extreme with Prior which creates more strain.
Crow
Doesn’t he have an inverted W too?
And does that crazy reverse cocking behind his back with pronated wrist load up to that W. Either way, his arm health concerns me.
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by David Howards Legacy on Apr 3, 2011 9:13 PM EDT reply actions
Control
I never like the inverted W because I didn’t think a pitchers control was a good with it. Keeping you front shoulder in and more compact to your body I thought helped your throwing arm get directly to the target. I just always thought if you open up your front shoulder and glove (ie not tucked like Greinke), your throwing shoulder would want to follow the front..thus making it hard to control.
I can also see how all this would place added strain on the shoulder as it is trying to either catch-up or fight against what the front shoulder and arm are doing.
With that being said..some bodies are made to do things others are not. I wouldn’t think Soria would have arm problems at all. His motion is so fluid and nice and easy. I would think he would put very little stress on his shoulder and arm. But who knows.
and Jack had TJ surgery before we picked him up
go figure.
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by David Howards Legacy on Apr 4, 2011 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
His Left Arm
Flies out during his followthrough, making stopping his right arm more stressful. It was discussed and analyzed at length a while back.
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by philofthenorth on Apr 5, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the Silly Bandz
on his pitching arm might be a larger cause for concern…
Pour yourself a Tim Collins
by labbadabba on Apr 4, 2011 12:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
or are they there as decoy?
like Dempster’s glove action?
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I'm actually a little surprised
that they allow the white colored band on his right wrist. I know it’s not his throwing arm but seems to me that they don’t often allow something like that for a pitcher.
I would tattoo a baseball on my hand
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by PhattStairs on Apr 4, 2011 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the link...
…and I have been pimping Tim Collins a lot lately, so you guys should be happy about that.
But I don’t do this kind of thing anymore for the same reasons that Driveline Mechanics is offline. As I said in the article you linked…
Dave talked about how people flooded his blogs (USS Mariner and Fangraphs) saying that Strasburg deserved this or that it was easily predictable. This was a major reason why I stopped writing at my SB Nation blog: Driveline Mechanics. Far too many people took my observations and writings as gospel or misinterpreted it as a concrete example of what not to do or what should be done in the pitching delivery. People flooded various blogs saying that such and such mechanical flaw leads to injury, when that’s absolutely not true. I’m building a motion capture laboratory in Seattle with the hopes of studying this myself and publishing the data for all to view as an open source project (unlike every other motion capture lab in the country). And when it’s nearly complete, Graham Macaree of Lookout Landing fame (Biomechanics and You is an excellent piece by him) has a standing invitation to come critique it and hopefully give me his ideas on how to improve it.
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by Kyle Boddy on Apr 5, 2011 2:54 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
A question on Tim Collins
Jeff Zimmerman has found in the Pitch f/x data for Collins this year that the release point for his curveball is about a foot away (laterally) from the release point for his fastball and change. What do you think about this in general? Do you think this is a problem in any way? And there is some concern that he might be tipping the pitch (when batters eventually figure this out).
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by Scott McKinney on Apr 5, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Tim Collins
I want to see more data for Tim Collins before making any judgments.
I have ongoing research on multiple PITCHf/x variables and how they relate (or don’t) to injury and/or effectiveness. Some of the research will be available in my Hardball Times column as it completes, but I am very busy with re-creating Minor League Splits at the moment.
Driveline Baseball - Advanced Training for the Baseball Athlete (located in Seattle, WA)
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