GRIT and the Royals
by Jeff Zimmerman on May 12, 2011 2:33 PM EDT
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PrintI am working on a formula that will take a player's stats and come up with the amount of measurable GRIT they are showing on the field. I am starting with position players first. These players get dirty, will sacrifice themselves and put the team first. Looking at the available stats, I decided to use the following stats to determine a player's GRIT score:
Positive Attributes
- CS + SB = It doesn't matter if you are successful, only if you attempted the stolen base and hopefully got dirty.
- HBP = Who cares if it hurts, losing hurts worse. Isn't that right Cano.
- SF + SH = Nothing shows you putting the team first like helping someone else along the base paths.
Negative Attributes
- GDP = Way to get your teammate out, sucka.
- BB + SO = Listen #$$%&, the object of the game is to hit the *^@@% ball !!!!!!!!!!!!111
- HR = Look at me, I hit the ball out the park. I am so great. Zip it.
I had to add some weights in and got the following equation:
GRIT = (.5*(cs+sb)+2.5*hbp+sf+sh-gdp-.20*(bb+so)-hr)
First here are the numbers for the 2010 season (min of 100 PA):
| Rank | Name | Grit | .5*(cs+sb) | 2.5*hbp | (sf+sh) | -gdp | -0.2*(bb+so) | -hr |
| 1 | Pierre Juan | 85.1 | 43 | 52.5 | 17 | -8 | -18.4 | -1 |
| 9 | Kendall Jason | 9.1 | 9.5 | 15 | 13 | -12 | -16.4 | 0 |
| 17 | Getz Chris | 4.1 | 8.5 | 5 | 3 | -3 | -9.4 | 0 |
| 34 | Podsednik Scott | 0.4 | 25 | 0 | 16 | -10 | -24.6 | -6 |
| 37 | Treanor Matt | 0 | 1.5 | 12.5 | 8 | -4 | -13 | -5 |
| 50 | Cain Lorenzo | -1.9 | 4 | 2.5 | 1 | -1 | -7.4 | -1 |
| 86 | Bloomquist Willie | -4.9 | 6.5 | 0 | 3 | -4 | -7.4 | -3 |
| 112 | Francoeur Jeff | -7.7 | 5.5 | 20 | 11 | -9 | -22.2 | -13 |
| 143 | Pena Brayan | -10.3 | 1 | 2.5 | 3 | -8 | -7.8 | -1 |
| 162 | Blanco Gregor | -11.3 | 7.5 | 0 | 3 | -5 | -15.8 | -1 |
| 167 | Escobar Alcides | -11.7 | 7 | 7.5 | 7 | -8 | -21.2 | -4 |
| 203 | DeJesus David | -14.2 | 3 | 10 | 4 | -10 | -16.2 | -5 |
| 254 | Aviles Mike | -19.8 | 9.5 | 2.5 | 3 | -13 | -13.8 | -8 |
| 260 | Maier Mitch | -20.3 | 2.5 | 0 | 7 | -3 | -21.8 | -5 |
| 261 | Ankiel Rick | -20.4 | 2 | 5 | 1 | -3 | -19.4 | -6 |
| 282 | Ka'aihue Kila | -23.1 | 0.5 | 0 | 2 | -5 | -12.6 | -8 |
| 286 | Guillen Jose | -23.5 | 0.5 | 35 | 6 | -17 | -29 | -19 |
| 290 | Gordon Alex | -25.2 | 3 | 5 | 3 | -9 | -19.2 | -8 |
| 329 | Callaspo Alberto | -33.1 | 4 | 2.5 | 7 | -22 | -14.6 | -10 |
| 330 | Betancourt Yuniesky | -33.4 | 2.5 | 2.5 | 8 | -13 | -17.4 | -16 |
| 331 | Betemit Wilson | -33.5 | 0 | 2.5 | 2 | -3 | -22 | -13 |
| 407 | Butler Billy | -54.9 | 0 | 12.5 | 9 | -32 | -29.4 | -15 |
| 441 | Ortiz David | -79.9 | 0.5 | 5 | 4 | -12 | -45.4 | -32 |
As whole it stand up pretty good (David Eckstein was #3 overall) and here are some notes:
- Pierre probably gets too much credit for his steals, but he also led the league HBP. No power and great contact skills leads him to being the 2010 GRIT chmapion
- Jason Kendall at #9 is top Royals. Did we really expect less?
- I really expected Bloomquist to be higher, but he is becoming a shell of his former gritty self. 13 attempted steals and 3 sacrifices just won't cut. Also no HBP. Looks like Dayton trade him off just as he was getting soft.
- The Royals locked down 3 spots in a row, 329 to 331. Dayton has gotten rid of 2 of those players. Betemit days seemed numbered.
- Billy Butler was destined to be last on the team with all the GDP and lack of steals
| Name | HR | BB | SO | HBP | SF | SH | GDP | SB | CS | GRIT |
| Chris Getz | 0 | 14 | 12 | 1 | 2 | 6 | 0 | 7 | 1 | 9.3 |
| Jarrod Dyson | 0 | 4 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 9 | 0 | 3.3 |
| Mike Aviles | 5 | 4 | 21 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 8 | 1 | 2.5 |
| Alcides Escobar | 0 | 6 | 20 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 5 | 4 | 2.3 |
| Brayan Pena | 1 | 6 | 5 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | -0.7 |
| Mitch Maier | 0 | 4 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | -1.8 |
| Eric Hosmer | 1 | 5 | 5 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | -2.5 |
| Matt Treanor | 2 | 14 | 13 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | -2.9 |
| Alex Gordon | 3 | 11 | 27 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 1 | -4.6 |
| Wilson Betemit | 1 | 12 | 27 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 0 | -6.3 |
| Billy Butler | 3 | 23 | 16 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 1 | -8.3 |
| Jeff Francoeur | 8 | 9 | 25 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 5 | 4 | 0 | -9.8 |
| Kila Ka'aihue | 2 | 12 | 26 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 0 | -10.6 |
| Melky Cabrera | 4 | 8 | 25 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 5 | 4 | 0 | -12.6 |
- No real surprise with Getz as the leader. Sacrifice baby.
- Cabrera the least GRITTY. Home runs and double plays everywhere. I can't believe some one so weak is batting second.
- The lack of home runs and double plays and actual stolen bases has moved Billy Butler off of last place .... for now.
- Pena over Treanor. Dayton's going to be mad.
- Hosmer will never be on this list. Gods aren't gritty, that is why they are Gods.
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Comments
Agreed
At first I was like “Where is Frenchy on this list?” Then I remembered you’re not factoring in outfield assists. That is gritty.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Not sure to to incorporate defense between IF and OF
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by Jeff Zimmerman on May 12, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Just do arm strength though.
Like Bloomquist had a terrible arm. So gritty. Kendall has a terrible arm. So gritty. Frenchy, Gordon, Melky—all have good arms. Not gritty.
Triples
The ultimate Hustle play. There is a reason Billy has only 3 career triples, because he’s soft in the body and soft in the mind.
by kcbottom9th on May 12, 2011 2:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I may be giving too much love to fast players.
Let me readjust it the values
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by Jeff Zimmerman on May 12, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I re-ran it with 3b add in and .25 used as the multiplier for SB and one of Eckstein's season is #1 since 1980
Kendall is #4 and #6
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by Jeff Zimmerman on May 12, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
This is fantastic.
What about Craig Counsell?
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on May 12, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
his highest was #151 overall
Craig Biggio and Vina Fernando show up quite often on the top.
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by Jeff Zimmerman on May 12, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That would go without saying I would think.
You should attempt to quantify scouts opinions.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on May 12, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
This list is not fair to Dougie. Is there a means to quantify amount of dirt on uniform? For me, that is the key indicator above all else.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so xxxxxxx stupid." – Phil Baroni
by keyboardwarrior on May 13, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I am also curious how Ross Gload stacks up. What is Gload’s Grit?
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so xxxxxxx stupid." – Phil Baroni
by keyboardwarrior on May 13, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Can you factor in amount of bacon consumed daily?
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on May 12, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
the top GRIT prospects in the top 5 minor leagues
2010: Corey Wimberly, Dee Gordon, Paulo Orlando, Ben Revere, Tony Campana, Antoan Richardson, Kris Negron, Anthony Jackson, Josh Harrison, Will Rhymes (Derrick Robinson is #15, somehow Jordan Parraz was #22, David Lough is #28, Chris McConnell is #31)
2011: Emmanuel Burris, Justin Christian, Kevin Frandsen, Dee Gordon, Rich Thompson (former Royal), Kevin Mattison, Jordan Pacheco, Stephen Lombardozzi, Che-Hsuan Lin, and Desmond Jennings (Lorenzo Cain is #14, Kurt Mertins is #42, Christian Colon is #63, Derrick Robinson is #74, Irving Falu is #77)
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
I can't quite figure out if GRIT is a bad thing or a good thing.
Does it mean you’re fast, can get on base, no power, and strike out a decent amount?
Juan Pierre is a fucking badass.
and apparantly Treanor is a pussy.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on May 12, 2011 3:22 PM EDT reply actions
How about being white, doesn't that mean automatic +2 GRIT
-4 DEXTERITY
+1 CHARM
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on May 12, 2011 3:23 PM EDT reply actions
Yes, there definitely needs to be a skin hue component
The paler your skin, the easier it is to see the GRIT.
by Royal(e) with Cheese on May 12, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
second that
do religious values play? maybe with a low weight?
CHIEFS DYNASTY – we’re kind of a big deal
Knowing that MITCH! has negative grit makes me smile.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on May 12, 2011 3:25 PM EDT reply actions
Quantifying
“eyeballs”, venturing into the realm of the scout. You should consider adding “busting up double plays” and “sacrificing the body to make a put-out”. That would raise Frenchy and Treanor a few notches. Overall a good effort.
Wouldn't it be sensible to mitigate the HR loss by providing
the opposite effect in the event of inside the park homers?
"That's fine wood from... somewhere."
by KeepItCopacetic on May 12, 2011 3:36 PM EDT reply actions
Treanor is "Grit Neutral?"
What an achievement to find that sweet-spot between recognizable achievement and near-intangibility!
he's only Grit-Neutral since he hasn't played enough
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
He's sporting quite an OBP
even though he’s hitting at the Mendoza line.
"¿Por qué no te calles?" --King Juan Carlos
I know this is slightly off topic
but I almost spit soda on my monitor when I noticed that Lord Hosmer has already drawn more walks than Aviles this season.
Shouldn't Kendall
receive at least 15 automatic points for being Jason Kendall?
"I'm not about to go and aks the manager to put me in when those other guys out there be rakin it." - Jarrod Dyson
by AlexGordonHRmagnet on May 12, 2011 4:09 PM EDT reply actions
He forgot to multiply by thousands of yards per start (YPS)
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on May 12, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Stare, but start will work too
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on May 12, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the amount of facial hair
Should be a positive factor as well. And perhaps the amount of chew you can shove into your mouth. I feel like Guillen is missing off of this list. He’s gritty right? Not according to 2010 stats, too many selfish homeruns and way too many strikeouts and BB. Also, only ONE SB
"I'm not about to go and aks the manager to put me in when those other guys out there be rakin it." - Jarrod Dyson
by AlexGordonHRmagnet on May 12, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Chew capacity is must, so is playing through phantom incapacitating injury
Guillen gave up far to many smiles per interview to lead the league in Grit, but his refusal to accept a DH role helped.
Facial hair is a complex rubric where too much growth constitute hippy dippy darewesay “pitcher-like” ungritty prettyboynancypantsness (see Rollie Fingers, Brian Wilson, Bret Saberhagen, et al). HOWEVER, clean shaven is unacceptable unless the player is sufficiently scrappy and should be respected for his brave attempts at even growing whispy getzian trash stache (see such ungritty clean faces as Billy Butler, Joey Votto, Will Clark, and Lou Gehrig).
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on May 12, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Grit vs Scrappy
How does being gritty compare to being scrappy? Are these to the same? If so I think we should work some sort of height and weight measure, such as BMI, into the formula.
What about consecutive starts?
or playing with injuries? That is high on the GRIT factor.
I'm ellipsis crazy...apologies in advance.
Or concealing injuries for an entire month?
"That's fine wood from... somewhere."
by KeepItCopacetic on May 12, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Gil Mesche Grit?
Christ, you don't need a quadrophonic Blaupunkt! What you need is a curveball! In the show, everyone can hit heat.
Or ejections for fistfighting
only if you were the initiator of said event. but on a more serious note why not:
average pitches per plate appearance
Christ, you don't need a quadrophonic Blaupunkt! What you need is a curveball! In the show, everyone can hit heat.
Shouldn't the HR, BB, SO and HBP be per AB?
It would require a lot of tweaking to the formula but it would make it more even for players who have fewer AB.
GRIT is something you accumulate, it's not some rate statistic.
You have to earn it. Rates are not gritty.
by play4'ships on May 12, 2011 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
some random thoughs
maybe add infield hits and a positional adjustment.
for instance, if a player plays 4 or more different positions in the same year they get a bouns. 1.05*GRIT for a player that played 4 different positons, 1.1 for 5 and or whatever weight you wanna give it. additionally give a penality to the turds who think they’re bigger than the team or good to move off a spot. 0.9*GRIT for players that only played one position. SS, 2B, C and CF could be exempt from penality. Call it UTILITY. oh and DH isn’t a position.
good article btw.
The WAR folks like yunel apparently. i know this, bobby cox hated going to war with this guy. ~Jon Heyman
by TheBravestWay To Block A Decent Prospect on May 12, 2011 11:03 PM EDT reply actions
infield hits/ejections/multiple positions...
would be easy/excellent additions
Don't be lonesome for your heroes. Be your own hero.
Sounds great, let me see what I can easily add.
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by Jeff Zimmerman on May 12, 2011 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
There should be a new stat
“Uniform Dirty at End of Game.” That ought to be easy to count.
How about a GRIT factor for pitchers? That would include pitcher wins, IP, high pitch count, lots of batters faced, lots of HBPs, and a high Win/ERA ratio. Jack Morris would be your ideal here.
"¿Por qué no te calles?" --King Juan Carlos
You ought to remove GIDP from the negatives
since the GRITTY player has done what he is supposed to do, hit an infield grounder and try to beat it out. The guy on first would have broken up the double play if he had any GRIT, anyway.
"¿Por qué no te calles?" --King Juan Carlos
good point, I will think about it
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by Jeff Zimmerman on May 13, 2011 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, yeah. Important consideration.
+5 points for chewing tobacco. +10 points for dribbling your spit down the front of your jersey.
My grandad who worked on the railroad chewed Beech-Nut tobacco like it was Juicy Fruit. He went everywhere with a spit can, and dribbled all over the place. It was massively gross. I tried his tobacco once when I was about eight, and vomited all over the place, which cured me for life. My grandad who worked for the government was one social class higher, and he smoked Luckies, the ones without the filter. By about the fifties you could smoke in the office, but not chew. They’d removed the spittoons. Pappy was out on the tracks with his handcar maintaining the signals and no one cared what he chewed.
"¿Por qué no te calles?" --King Juan Carlos
flawed scoring rubric
walks as a NEGATIVE? as we say on AP: boy, stop! take off for K but you have to add for BB … Aviles near the top, great … but ;ppl at Betamit and please! Butler with all he’s done near the bottom? no, you’ve got it bass ackwards, Zim
put those BBs on the postiive side and redo the chart, and HR’s can’t be a NEGATIVE … neutral if you must, but not negative, that’s ludicrous
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
The list is of players the media and team reps would call gritty.
I never heard Billy ever considered gritty.
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by Jeff Zimmerman on May 13, 2011 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Game Related Intangible Talent
This post is good, but GRIT – “Game Related Intangible Talent” – as a statistic has already been covered on Royals Review – http://www.royalsreview.com/2008/5/14/509719/measuring-intangibles-%E2%80%93-th
I like the makeup of the old GRIT more than this newer one, even if there was more subjectivity (better fielding than hitting, playing hurt, etc.). Who can crunch the numbers using the old ’08 criteria?
I would love to be able run the numbers league wide, so it needs to be numbers bases.
You could look at the current team and do it. Also to HBP and stolen base attempts in Scott’s analysis. Totally flawed
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by Jeff Zimmerman on May 13, 2011 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Upon reflection, I believe there is most likely a direct correlation
Between the length of hair of the band members responsible for a player’s walk up music, and said player. Think of Jason Kendall batting to White Zombie, or Willie Bloomquist with a pair of GnR songs.
"That's fine wood from... somewhere."
by KeepItCopacetic on May 13, 2011 9:24 AM EDT reply actions
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