Royal Catchers Chugging Horribly Along Without Jason Kendall
by Freneau on May 2, 2011 6:58 PM EDT
in Kansas City Royals News
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PrintWhile we all await Jason Kendall's return with all the feelings of awe, terror, anticipation and dread expressed in Yeats's "The Second Coming" it's worth taking a look at how the Royal catchers have done this year.
We can get the game-calling and defense out of the way, because there's no sense in talking about. I'm sure the Royals have concerns about Pena and I'm sure they believe Matt Treanor has done just the most amazing job imaginable. Well, unless Kendall was back there. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. We know what they think and that's that.
In terms of offensive production, which we can actually measure, Treanor and Pena have been bad. Worse actually, than expected. It may be time to start worrying about Pena.
Their composite line is .219/.321/.344, which is good for a .665 OPS, 8th best in the AL. AL catching in general is in a horrible condition, however, so while the Royals aren't gaining an advantage at catcher, they aren't losing one either. The AL average line is .228/.290/.384.
(Side note: I believe that in large part the so-called "Year of the Pitcher" last season was a self-fulfilling prophecy enacted by MLB collectively. Just about every team is going with all-defense, no-hit options at SS, CF, C, again, in adherence to old-school baseball orthodoxy. This is supposed to be a response to pitching & defense mattering more, which it is, as a cause rather than an effect.)
Here's the individual breakdown:
| PAs | BA | OBP | SLG | |
| Treanor | 66 | .204 | .338 | .333 |
| Pena | 47 | .238 | .298 | .357 |
I don't know if Treanor has much improvement to offer. He's a 90 year old journeyman backup catcher beloved by guys like Ned Yost. It's almost a badge of honor to see how bad guys like these can hit. That being said, he has one of the highest OBPs on the team at .338. Treanor!
Pena's start has been disappointing, and I worry that if he continues to see only part time action, he may never get going. He actually hit for a similar line last season, so perhaps his somewhat competent 2009 season was just his peak year. I especially worry about Pena's power, which has eroded in recent years. Like so many Seitzer students, he's now a ground ball machine.
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That stare is just eeeerie
Seriously, it creeps me out. Kendall and Treanor should have a stare-off. I don’t know what the winner would get, but it’s clear that, whoever wins, we lose.
Tension is the enemy. - Charlie Lau
by aHorseWithNoName on May 2, 2011 7:31 PM EDT reply actions
He looks like he could stare the beard right off of Kendall.
You want optimism? My glass is half full of emptiness.
Robert Goulet always wins staring contests
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by averagegatsby on May 3, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
(Side note: I believe that in large part the so-called “Year of the Pitcher” last season was a self-fulfilling prophecy enacted by MLB collectively. Just about every team is going with all-defense, no-hit options at SS, CF, C, again, in adherence to old-school baseball orthodoxy. This is supposed to be a response to pitching & defense mattering more, which it is, as a cause rather than an effect.)
Interesting theory. But who are the good-hitting catchers, shortstops and centerfielders that have been benched to make way for all-glove types? I can’t think of any off the top of my head.
Well for instance you could take a guy like Aviles and have him play SS - he's not good but he's not bad
though they elect to go with Escobar’s “glove-first” approach and hope he can hit.
by SagehenMacGyver47 on May 2, 2011 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I suspect he was being facetious
The whole line of “self-fulfilling prophecy enacted by MLB collectively” makes me think so.
You want optimism? My glass is half full of emptiness.
Since when...
Hating life as a Royals fan 365 days a year at Royalscentricity
by Old Man Duggan on May 3, 2011 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
What the hell are we even
not paying you for then?
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by sfeldkamp on May 3, 2011 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Treanor AKA Hannibal has a death stare that A team would cringe at
.......Just a beer drinking KC Chiefs & KC Royals fan.......
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by Mas Cervezas on May 2, 2011 8:40 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Treanor looks like he wants to eat my soul...
…and he still doesn’t scare me as much as the thought of Kendall in the lineup.
by Tracer Bullet 82 on May 2, 2011 9:01 PM EDT reply actions
BUT WHAT IS THEIR CATCHER ERA?
That is the only stat that matters!
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
These stats with which you speak of make no mention of
bat control
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on May 3, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I Guess...
If we expect our catchers to hit 30 HRs, maybe we should expect our bloggers to write in complete sentences while spewing ridicule.
by royalsfantexas on May 2, 2011 9:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Catching
“We can get the game-calling and defense out of the way, because there’s no sense in talking about.”
From what I’ve seen of Treanor and Pena, their defense compensates for quite a bit of lost offense with the blocks of balls in the dirt with a runner on 3rd and blocking tough at the plate for a put-out. Pena is much better defensively than he was last year, Treanor’s a brick wall, and Treanor does get the walks and quality at-bats. I still think Kendall stays on IR for a good, long time, then gets DFA’ed. He’ld make a good minor league coach. Pena and Treanor are doing enough to stay, then one gets replaced next year by Pina or Perez, should either show enough stick.
It's almost enough to make me miss John Buck
…that is, until I remember him striking out once every 3 pa’s or so.
You want optimism? My glass is half full of emptiness.
yeah....and those fucking home runs...those sucked
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 2, 2011 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He was good at XBH, admittedly
But who knew he’d explode like he did last year, even if Toronto is launch-pad-ish?
You want optimism? My glass is half full of emptiness.
he was pretty good when he was here
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 2, 2011 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions
John Buck's
stats:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2041&position=C
Offensively he wasn’t much, defensively much less.
by Jim Fetterolf on May 2, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
you're either looking at the wrong stats or you dont know how bad catchers are at hitting
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 2, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong Stats
Pick the ones you like. Last year was his only good hitting year that I can see. Most years he’s Brayan Pena without the defensive chops. Had Buck been any good the Royals wouldn’t have had to bring in Olivo.
by Jim Fetterolf on May 2, 2011 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
you're using daytons major league decisions to justify your argument that buck isnt good?
he replaced olivo and buck with a significantly inferior player for more money….thats a terrible argument to make. and buck has been a significantly better hitter than brayan pena throughout his career
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 2, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Not
in the least, didn’t mention the incredibly dumb Kendall move or GMDM’s habit of bringing in high priced, over-the-hill players. I thought we were talking about how great or sucky John Buck was. I posted the stat sheet and remember when Buck was a bust, part of the horrible return in the Beltran trade. Last year, his only good hitting year, his BABIP spiked 45 points over career while his LD% stayed below average, as it always has been. Buck has hit better than Pena, OPS of .721 to .664, but not sure that’s significant, especially as Buck has five times the plate appearances, Pena with 535 in part time duty, Buck with 2649. The couple of times Pena has had a month or so of full-time he’s hit well.
by Jim Fetterolf on May 2, 2011 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
60 points in OPS isnt significant?
and your last argument was based on buck sucking b/c of who moore brought in to replace him and i just pointed out how dumb of an argument that was.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 2, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Sample
size and Buck’s one good year in Toronto with an unsustainable BABIP.
“and your last argument was based on buck sucking b/c of who moore brought in to replace him and i just pointed out how dumb of an argument that was.”
Buck was sucky with us because he’s not a very good defensive catcher and not much offensively, aside from one fluke year. I didn’t mention Moore at all. This is what I said, “Offensively he wasn’t much, defensively much less.” Then to underline Buck’s relative suckiness, I mentioned that Olivo was picked up. Turns out Miggie got the majority of PAs, so Buck’s best year as a Royal was with 200 PAs as a part-time player. With Florida this year he has a .701 OPS and a .227 BA. He’s 2 for 14 on caught stealing with 3 passed balls.
by Jim Fetterolf on May 2, 2011 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Pena
is 5 for 10 caught stealing, 1 PB. Treanor is 6 for 8, 0 PB, with a .672 OPS and .204 BA. I think we’re better off now than with Buck.
by Jim Fetterolf on May 2, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
wow...talk about small sample sizes
and statistically, none of them are good defensively and buck’s a better hitter…even before his ‘flukish’ year in toronto. Treanor was traded to the royals for nothing. Pena was picked up off if waivers for free. Buck was given a 3 year 18 million contract and before that $2 million. Neither Buck nor Treanor would sniff two million on the open market.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 3, 2011 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Just
comparing numbers.
“and statistically, none of them are good defensively and buck’s a better hitter”
Treanor and Pena look fine defensively and I don’t see that Buck is a good hitter, but maybe you have a better stat than PBs or caught stealing or OPS or LD%. I think those are two of the more important defensive things a catcher does, plus put-outs at the plate. Buck with an $18m contract reminds a little of Josie, but it does suggest comparing bang for the buck. That $5.5m per year saved will come in handy a few years down the road when Buck still sucks and his contract is blocking someone.
by Jim Fetterolf on May 3, 2011 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Good call...you're definitely right...Buck wasn't good enough to start for a perenniel last place team...
…but was immediately good enough to start for Toronto and Florida, two teams that would absolutely dominate the sh*t out of the AL Central. Yeah, makes perfect sense!
Buck isn’t a great catcher..but he’s a pretty decent one overall…and was always, ALWAYS good enough to start for the Royals and is a FAR better option than any catcher the Royals can field now.
Killing time until time kills me
Buck
had half the plate appearances Olivo had in ‘09 and was less productive, so even then he wasn’t good enough to start for a last place team.
by Jim Fetterolf on May 3, 2011 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
b/c we had two pretty good catchers in 09
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 3, 2011 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
The Marlins could not win the AL Central.
Nice young talent and all, but they will be lucky to finish 3rd in the NL East. Toronto would be competitive however.
I need to go take a Davies and wipe my Elarton. Excuse me.
by royaldaddy on May 3, 2011 2:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The Marlins could not win the AL Central.
Nice young talent and all, but they will be lucky to finish 3rd in the NL East. Toronto would be competitive however.
I need to go take a Davies and wipe my Elarton. Excuse me.
by royaldaddy on May 3, 2011 2:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, I was gonna say
In general, a catcher really only has to do something north of a .700 OPS to be decent for his position, at least offensively.
You want optimism? My glass is half full of emptiness.
Lots of people did. John Buck is a legitimately good hitting catcher. Was in KC. Was in Toronto. Is in Florida.
Just proves what a dumbass DM can be. He wasn’t good enough to even be the KC starting catcher by the end of his tenure…yet Toronto immediately snaps him up and makes him a starting catcher in the far, far superior AL EAST. Think about it.
Killing time until time kills me
Not a middle of the order guy
But down in the 7-8-9 spots, swinging for the fence each time? Have to say I’d love to see that over any catcher the Royals can trot out currently, that’s for sure.
You want optimism? My glass is half full of emptiness.
Treanor!
Treanor has been great defensively and has been having a lot of great ABs. He has also produced some of the most exciting plays in a surprising start to the season.
He is a valuable player, and in my mind anyone complaining about him through the first month is just showing bias.
by royalsfantexas on May 2, 2011 10:17 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
treanor is like getz....he's probably ultimately pointless...
but he’s been fine just like getz and most people dont want either of them in the lineup….yet, most people are very supportive of kila who is being outhit by both of them.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 2, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably b/c Kila has potential, while Treanor has none..and Getz has hardly any.
Getz is also taking PAs away from Aviles or Betemit when he plays, Treanor takes away PAs from Pena when he plays…while Kila takes PAs away from….well, nobody.
Killing time until time kills me
one of betemit and aviles dont play when kila plays
and if you dont see any potential in getz than its really hard to see potential in pena
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 2, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
that's becasue Yost puts Getz in over one of Betemit or Aviles.
Betemit at 3B, Aviles at 2B, Kila at 1B/DH. Everyday. That’s clearly possible.
Getz has 775 PAs in the majors. He’s been pure dogshit.
Treanor has 1184 PAs in the majors. He’s been pure dogshit and is 35.
Pena has 535 PAs in the majors. Kila has 322 in the majors and had two extremely dominant seasons in the minors. We are a rebuilding team…and that’s why you play Pena and Kila everyday. Your arguments make no sense unless you think the Royals are legitimate contenders. Otherwise..you play the players who haven’t had as much of a chance.
Killing time until time kills me
by EspeciallyK on May 3, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ehh....i think its far more likely that getz is a contributor on a good royals team than kila...
its all just a matter of opinion though…but the only time getz has been dogshit was last year…he’s been decent this year and was decent in 09 along with a good season at AA in 2007 and AAA in 2008. Even getz dogshit year wasnt far from kilas major league dogshit
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 3, 2011 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Kila's
potential is as trade bait, an old guy in a crowded position.
by Jim Fetterolf on May 2, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
So who are we going to get to replace these guys?
They’re replacement level. Catcher is the only big hole in the lineup that can’t somehow be filled among the players we’ve got now. This is where trading somebody good or spending some free agent money needs to be done. C’mon, we’ve got a payroll of like $35 million, lower than a couple of Spanish second division soccer teams. Who might be available and how much would he cost?
"¿Por qué no te calles?" --King Juan Carlos
its all dependent on how this year goes for salvador perez....
he’s in AA and if this year goes well, could be in KC by mid 2012 or early 2013. 2012 is likely not a competitive year barring all of the guys coming up and thriving out of the gate, so its pretty pointless to spend big on a catcher for 2012. Now, if Perez happens to really struggle this year, i think it’d be wise to start looking at trades for catchers…maybe Austin Romine, one of the Toronto guys, etc. The FA catching class is shit unless the Cardinals decide to not pick up yadi’s option.
Jason Kendall KC
Yadier Molina STL *
Dioner Navarro LAD
Jorge Posada NYY
Ivan Rodriguez WAS
Brian Schneider PHI
Kelly Shoppach TB *
Chris Snyder PIT *
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 3, 2011 4:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought we wer gonna trade
Soria for Montero?
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on May 3, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I really doubt the Cards'll fail to pick up that option
"Do they have people that tall in Mexico?"
by NHZ on May 3, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah...even if they were to decide that they needed the money for pujols...
he’d be a very valuable commodity in a trade
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 3, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
In only 44 AB
Brayan is now hitting .250/.314/.386, with a 4-4 BB-SO. If he could hit .260/.325/.400 over, say, 300 AB, that would be more than acceptable, assuming his defense is adequate.
"¿Por qué no te calles?" --King Juan Carlos
not if we're talking about a long term catcher which i think we were....
brayan isnt young and his body type seemingly wouldnt age well. And this completely ignores the fact that he doesnt fit into what DM/Ned want in a catcher. I think they’d allow him to be the backup, but i highly doubt he ever goes into the season as the starter.
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on May 4, 2011 5:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I was figuring on Brayan as a part-timer at best
with about 200-300 AB, which would be just fine if he could up those triple-slash figures a bit. Brayan also has a little possible upside. Treanor has none, and Voldemort has less than none. Brayan might be able to hold it down until Pérez comes up, though it would probably be wise to insist on a catcher when we trade Frenchy, Mr. President, and/or Melky. How about Chen and Frenchy to the Yanks for Montero? We could throw in Wood.
"¿Por qué no te calles?" --King Juan Carlos
This guy would have been nice
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1433&position=C
Though I doubt the Twins trade him in division. For what they got for him I bet they didn’t even want to trade him in the AL. This is a real head scratcher of a move. The twins actually needed a catcher for this year. I really hope DM doesn’t have something like this in him.
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