How Hopeless is it for the Baltimore Orioles?
Living where I do, I watch the Orioles more than any team other than the Royals. I wouldn't say I root for them, but I do tend to feel empathy for, or with, their fans. Just a few years ago, maybe even just a few months ago, the Orioles were seen by many as a team on the rise, they had a number of exciting young players on both the Major League roster and in the minor leagues. During the Mark Teixeira free agency sweepstakes, I can recall a few smart baseball writers of the saber perspective arguing that he actually made sense for Baltimore, a team that was ready to take the next step.
Now, they just look hopeless to me. As Royals fans we know what hopeless looks like. From the outside I'd say their best course of action is to begin a massive rebuild. Trade everyone: Wieters, Jones, everyone.
- In the last two years, seemingly all of their pitching prospects have taken steps backwards, lost velocity, etc. This was a group that prospect hounds were quite excited about at one point. However, Brian Matusz, Chris Tillman, Jake Arrieta, Zach Britton, etc have not panned out. As a group, it seems unlikely that they will produce much value for the Orioles. Perhaps one good pitcher will emerge from the pile, but it no longer looks like a young staff is in the making.
- Matt Wieters and Adam Jones are good young players who have not lived up to expectations. In the offseason BP described Wieters as one of the most disapointing prospects of all time, a designation that gained a lot of attention and vitriol. Weiters has had a nice season, but he has not emerged as a Joe Mauer at his peak superstar. Moreover, much of his value is tied up in the mysterious world of catcher defense. Jones has been a 2-3 win player in Baltimore. He's a nice player but isn't one that's pushing the Orioles to greatness. Worse still, for both Wieters and Jones, their cheap years are coming to an end. Jones is already in arbitration and will be a free agent in 2014. Wieters hits arbitration in 2013. Perhaps Wieters will be part of the next contending Orioles team, it seems unlikely Jones will.
Finally, we have the daunting matter of context. The Orioles play in the best division in baseball, by far. Obviously, the Yankees and Red Sox will almost always be 90 win teams, at minimum. However, the terrible news for the Orioles is that they now appear to be well behind the Blue Jays and Rays going forward. Tampa probably has the best farm system in baseball right now and a good young core of talent. The Blue Jays are a little behind the Rays on both counts, but have more resources.
I just can't help but conclude that the Orioles should blow it up. Step one is a massive FO overhaul. The current regime did ok, in building the Orioles up to a few years of Baseball America glory, but it didn't work out. Hire the best GM candidate on the market and let him assemble a new team. Then, trade Markakis for anything, shop the pitchers for anything, and, importantly, maximize the assets you have in Jones and Wieters. Trading Weiters won't happen and would be incredible risky, but what else can the Orioles do? They have to get dramatically better. Dramatically. They could build a roster that would win the AL Central, and they might not get to .500 in the AL East. They have to get radical. As Seal once said, the only way they're gonna survive, is to get a little crazy.
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you mean keeping a 33 year old Luke Scott isn't a good idea?
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yeah, he *says* he's 33
where’s his birth certificate?
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by Crooow on Aug 4, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
The O's are a bit of a cautionary tale
I don’t think the collection of young talent they have was a highly regarded as our group, but it was pretty highly regarded. And for the most part, they’re all either “meh”, or big flops. And its still early, but I think most expected the O’s to be pretty decent by now, with the young guys being complemented with some nice veteran parts (Vlad, Reynolds, Hardy) and it hasn’t really translated to much success.
Keep this in mind when anyone proposes we just need to sign a few good vets to surround the youngsters. Not that isn’t a bad idea, just that it doesn’t seem like that is what makes bad teams good. Bad teams get good because their young players turn into superstars, and it doesn’t seem to matter whether or not they’re surrounded by good vets.
As for the current O’s, I’d stick it out one more year I think. I still think you build around guys like Wieters and Jones. If Roberts ever re-asserts his trade value, I’d deal him though if you can get anything for him. The big problem for the O’s is their division is near impossible now. The Red Sox and Yanks are the big dogs, the Rays are loaded with young talent and the Jays seem to be one of the smartest teams in the league. The O’s could be good enough to win the Central and still finish dead last.
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I was shocked to see any of the 4
of Scott, Vlad, Reynolds, and Hardy on their roster post trade deadline. I’m assuming that they’d never eat any salary in a deal for any of them and that $$ kept everyone at bay.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Aug 4, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
granted
Luke is on the DL
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Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
I'd forgotten that,
but the pooint was that they had no intention of moving any of the vets on the team.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Aug 4, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
and Vlad was on the DL until 5 days before the deadline
the Orioles transaction log on their gamenotes was pretty long
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Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
Those gamenotes are pretty cool, aren't they.
I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.
by mitchfreakingmaier! on Aug 4, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
isn't the problem ownership?
my brother-in-law, who held season tickets for the O’s games for years refuses to go anymore until Peter Angelos either gets it, or is gone.
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
A bit
But the Twins had a terrible owner too and won several division titles. The Marlins have a terrible owner and have won a championship.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
The Marlins won in Loria's first season
before he had time to Loria it up. Barry Switzer had more to do with the Cowboys’ 1996 championship than Loria did with the Marlins 2003 win.
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by Matt Klaassen on Aug 4, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
true
I don’t think the Orioles owner should get all the blame. But the Marlins have put in about zero effort, too. And in this case, documents back it up. Imagine what they would have done if Loria had been willing to put in at least a little money out there. The Marlins have managed to waste the prime of Hanley Ramirez.
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by Matt Klaassen on Aug 4, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I think in the O's case, Angelos can rightfully be accused of excessive meddling
"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell
The Twins would never have been known as a great team
if they played in the AL East.
At best they would have been seen as okay, similar to Toronto.
NY and Boston is too tough for almost any team to overcome.
The current Toronto team would probably win the AL Central
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by Matt Klaassen on Aug 4, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
apropo of nothing
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by Matt Klaassen on Aug 4, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe 10 years ago it was...
I dont know if it is now. The Orioles dont spend at all internationally, which could be an ownership problem.
When they hired MacPhail (sp?) it was seen as their Dayton Moore moment, when they brought in a respected Baseball Man to run things.
Which is why this needs to be more specific:
Hire the best GM candidate on the market and let him assemble a new team.
If you trust everybody else, you get Dayton Moore or MacPhail. Hire the best GM candidate on the market “who has proven to understand the new universe of baseball analysis”.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Aug 4, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Will, a question about their pitching prospects
Several of those guys you list have started OK, only to sorta unravel after a while in the majors. One of the analysts on MLB Network suggested that the Baltimore team defense is so bad, it can shatter the confidence of these guys, particularly some of the soft tossers, such as Britton.
Do you concur with that opinion? (I have no impression of the Baltimore defense – I simply don’t get to see them enough to have an opinion)
If strikeouts are indeed fascist - then find me some starters that believe in fascism
Britton throws 92 MPH
which is little above average for lefty.
Guthrie/Britton have been OK. Not great, not bad, though they're not getting strikeouts.
Arrieta was a B+ prospect, but always had control problems. I suppose you could make a case that not trusting his defense means he’s unwilling to throw more strikes, but this has always been a problem for him, not just now that his ML defense is subpar.
Bergesen was a C+. The fact that he’s in the majors at all is a good thing for the Orioles. Not a high ceiling, but he can be a #4/5. He’s an example of a guy who doesn’t have a ton of stuff (89 mph FB) and doesn’t get a lot of Ks, so he’s going to rely on his defense.
Tillman’s OK, he was a B+, and has decent K and BB numbers. FIP is good, xFIP not so much, but he’s got a .348 BABIP this season, so the defense hasn’t helped him, as you mentioned. According to Sickels, though, his FB velocity has declined this season: TINSTAAPP.
Matusz looked good in 2010, and has been injured.
While this may not be a championship-caliber rotation, it’s at least the foundation to build on:
Matusz
Britton
Guthrie
Tillman
Bergesen
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Aug 4, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It's all the Nationals fault, this is why Angelos fought to keep them out of DC.
/sarcasm
Glad I came, just wish I hadn't stayed so long.
Rock Chalk Talk
Supposedly the Bundy brothers are going to be studs
But we’ve heard that before. Machado is a top 5 prospect in baseball but other than that they have decent prospects like Wieters/Matusz who haven’t played well this year, but still have a good chance to be good.
They really fucked up the 2009 draft and picked a player who seems like a total bust, meanwhile that draft looks fantastic for everyone else.
The Orioles are the one team you compare the Royals too and you become grateful for Moore’s solid drafts.
by GobbleforCyoung on Aug 4, 2011 10:54 AM EDT reply actions
Do you have cable?
I have satellite in Alexandria and hate when the Royals and Orioles play because it’s the only time that mlb.tv is blacked out.
This is no panacea for the Os, but...
…couldn’t they use some better coaching, esp. in terms of pitching? I mean, if the vets are helping coach, or are bad examples, then you need a manager with a vision and discipline (the latter because young teams supposedly need more of it). But a good, inspiring manager—-even one who makes poor in-game decisions (think Dusty Baker and the 2003 Cubs)—-can take a mediocre team a long way. – TL
"Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.
they have had 3 pitching coaches in the last year
so that may be part ofthe problem. rany mentioned on his podcast that they may have really poor player development people, includiong at the ML level, with all this failure. i dont know. then again, coaching doesnt make yuo lose fastball speed. i think.
remember when they hired Leo Mazzone and it was a big deal?
by Freneau on Aug 4, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah
having the pitching coach quit midseason is probably not helping their pitching
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Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
by BHWick on Aug 4, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's that Buck Showalter magic.
one of the most humble guys in baseball
SBN's most random and mysterious lurker guy who posts too much
Follow me on Twitter if you want: Lum_SM
Hey they have Buck Showalter now
I’m sure they’re great at fundamentals and at wearing their socks the right way.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
by RoyalsRetro on Aug 4, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Buck means that
they’ll win the world series the year after he gets fired
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!
Since you live in the area acn you tell me what the Orioles think of AAA Tyler Henson?
Hes from my HS and was curious if he is a major league prospect or simply career minor leaguer
I'm no expert, but I havent' heard much about him from their chatters, etc
if he doesnt get called up this year at some point, I might be worried
The only way they’ll ever have a chance is if MLB realigns and loses divisions as they’re talking about and does away with the unbalanced schedule. They have no shot to compete against the Yankees, Red Sox, and Blue Jays on resources. Those teams have some pretty smart FO too.
2011 Royals Review NCAA Bracket Challenge Winner, by process of attrition
Its not about resources though
The Rays don’t have resources and they won the division. But I admit, it is going to be very tough for the next few years.
Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com
Well, we've been talking about this post over on CC
and we concur, pretty hopeless.
"Real Orioles don't pout. Real Orioles don't gloat. Real Orioles just win."
Will, didn't you switch the site banner to the "the Royals are the next O's" a couple of years ago?
I know there was some discussion about the parallels between the two organizations.
What should the O’s do? It is probably time to move McPhail out to pasture (or to the commish’s office as the rumor goes), hire a new generation GM, but keep the young core together for at least another year in hopes that the new GM can pull off some AA like moves. I was never real high on Arrieta or Tillman, but it is way too early to give up on Britton or Matusz (especially considering the injury). As mentioned above, they have some nice pieces in the minors too.
I probably did
There was real excitement for the Orioles awhile back. The debut nights of Wieters and some of the young pitcehrs were comparable to how we all felt about Moose, Hosmer, etc.
Angelos meddled in the sense of wanthing to spend, Glass meddled in wanthing to be cheap…
How hopeless is it?
see Tampa and reasons for their revival??
Boston and why they’re perpetually good, etc.
Angels ditto.
Cardinals same.
never hopeless with right GM/manager combos?
.
The Orioles
Although younger the last couple of years, spent a decade as a team whose hitters were all over 30, one year the average age of their hitters was over 33.
They had a few prospects, led by the overhyped Weiters, and Jones is still a fine player , but even finally getting a little younger, they still seem to have no direction.
Heck, they signed Derrek Lee and Vlad in free agency last year, and traded for Mark Reynolds. What are you trying to accomplish with that?
They seem to have very little real commitment to player development, no latin american presence, no organizational philosophy. Yes, I would blow it up, and start at the top.
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
Yeahhhh Baltimore!!!!!
Living in KC and watching the great Royal teams and then moving to Baltimore and seeing the O’s makes me love baseball.
The fans go out and fill the stadiums. The owners and GM’s both know what they’re doing arebuilding contenders. Who needs George Brett or Cal Ripken? Both teams are better off without them. It can’t get any better.
P.S. I’m not a O’s fan. Only go to the games when the Royals come to town. And no KC you’re not alone. Baseball here is just as depressing as it there, maybe more. They have no hope here. Except for Vladimir Guerrero
I thought they were going to actually be alright.
I figured a line up of Roberts,Jones,Markakis,Lee,Vlad,Weiters, and Scott would be pretty sollid and they had a pretty young staff but they fell off.
How many Royals fans live in the greater Washington DC metropolitan area?
We should consider going to a sports bar and watching a Royals game with a few brews before the season ends, I figure.
Where You Going?
I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.
by philofthenorth on Aug 5, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions





















