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How Hopeless is it for the Baltimore Orioles?

Living where I do, I watch the Orioles more than any team other than the Royals. I wouldn't say I root for them, but I do tend to feel empathy for, or with, their fans. Just a few years ago, maybe even just a few months ago, the Orioles were seen by many as a team on the rise, they had a number of exciting young players on both the Major League roster and in the minor leagues. During the Mark Teixeira free agency sweepstakes, I can recall a few smart baseball writers of the saber perspective arguing that he actually made sense for Baltimore, a team that was ready to take the next step.

Now, they just look hopeless to me. As Royals fans we know what hopeless looks like. From the outside I'd say their best course of action is to begin a massive rebuild. Trade everyone: Wieters, Jones, everyone.

  • In the last two years, seemingly all of their pitching prospects have taken steps backwards, lost velocity, etc. This was a group that prospect hounds were quite excited about at one point. However, Brian Matusz, Chris Tillman, Jake Arrieta, Zach Britton, etc have not panned out. As a group, it seems unlikely that they will produce much value for the Orioles. Perhaps one good pitcher will emerge from the pile, but it no longer looks like a young staff is in the making.
  • Matt Wieters and Adam Jones are good young players who have not lived up to expectations. In the offseason BP described Wieters as one of the most disapointing prospects of all time, a designation that gained a lot of attention and vitriol. Weiters has had a nice season, but he has not emerged as a Joe Mauer at his peak superstar. Moreover, much of his value is tied up in the mysterious world of catcher defense. Jones has been a 2-3 win player in Baltimore. He's a nice player but isn't one that's pushing the Orioles to greatness. Worse still, for both Wieters and Jones, their cheap years are coming to an end. Jones is already in arbitration and will be a free agent in 2014. Wieters hits arbitration in 2013. Perhaps Wieters will be part of the next contending Orioles team, it seems unlikely Jones will.

Star-divide

  • Nick Markakis has been in a mysterious decline for years and is set to become very well paid through 2015. The Orioles owe him $42 million through 2014 with an option for $15 million in 2015. He might be break even salary-wise, value-wise, going forward. Might. He's not an asset.
  • The Orioles owe Brian Roberts $20 million for 2012-12 and are probably hoping he pulls a Gil Meche.
  • Finally, we have the daunting matter of context. The Orioles play in the best division in baseball, by far. Obviously, the Yankees and Red Sox will almost always be 90 win teams, at minimum. However, the terrible news for the Orioles is that they now appear to be well behind the Blue Jays and Rays going forward. Tampa probably has the best farm system in baseball right now and a good young core of talent. The Blue Jays are a little behind the Rays on both counts, but have more resources.

    I just can't help but conclude that the Orioles should blow it up. Step one is a massive FO overhaul. The current regime did ok, in building the Orioles up to a few years of Baseball America glory, but it didn't work out.  Hire the best GM candidate on the market and let him assemble a new team. Then, trade Markakis for anything, shop the pitchers for anything, and, importantly, maximize the assets you have in Jones and Wieters. Trading Weiters won't happen and would be incredible risky, but what else can the Orioles do? They have to get dramatically better. Dramatically. They could build a roster that would win the AL Central, and they might not get to .500 in the AL East. They have to get radical. As Seal once said, the only way they're gonna survive, is to get a little crazy.

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    you mean keeping a 33 year old Luke Scott isn't a good idea?

    Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
    Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!

    by BHWick on Aug 4, 2011 10:35 AM EDT reply actions  

    The O's are a bit of a cautionary tale

    I don’t think the collection of young talent they have was a highly regarded as our group, but it was pretty highly regarded. And for the most part, they’re all either “meh”, or big flops. And its still early, but I think most expected the O’s to be pretty decent by now, with the young guys being complemented with some nice veteran parts (Vlad, Reynolds, Hardy) and it hasn’t really translated to much success.

    Keep this in mind when anyone proposes we just need to sign a few good vets to surround the youngsters. Not that isn’t a bad idea, just that it doesn’t seem like that is what makes bad teams good. Bad teams get good because their young players turn into superstars, and it doesn’t seem to matter whether or not they’re surrounded by good vets.

    As for the current O’s, I’d stick it out one more year I think. I still think you build around guys like Wieters and Jones. If Roberts ever re-asserts his trade value, I’d deal him though if you can get anything for him. The big problem for the O’s is their division is near impossible now. The Red Sox and Yanks are the big dogs, the Rays are loaded with young talent and the Jays seem to be one of the smartest teams in the league. The O’s could be good enough to win the Central and still finish dead last.

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on Aug 4, 2011 10:36 AM EDT reply actions  

    exactly

    it sucks, but the best play for the orioles is to try to be a 90 win team in 2015, maybe later. but they’ve got to start now

    by Freneau on Aug 4, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

    I was shocked to see any of the 4

    of Scott, Vlad, Reynolds, and Hardy on their roster post trade deadline. I’m assuming that they’d never eat any salary in a deal for any of them and that $$ kept everyone at bay.

    I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.

    by mitchfreakingmaier! on Aug 4, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

    granted

    Luke is on the DL

    Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
    Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!

    by BHWick on Aug 4, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

    I'd forgotten that,

    but the pooint was that they had no intention of moving any of the vets on the team.

    I'm waiting for my wave of talent to arrive.

    by mitchfreakingmaier! on Aug 4, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

    and Vlad was on the DL until 5 days before the deadline

    the Orioles transaction log on their gamenotes was pretty long

    Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
    Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!

    by BHWick on Aug 4, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

    They even signed Hardy to an extension

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on Aug 4, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

    isn't the problem ownership?

    my brother-in-law, who held season tickets for the O’s games for years refuses to go anymore until Peter Angelos either gets it, or is gone.

    "Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

    by buddyball on Aug 4, 2011 10:39 AM EDT reply actions  

    A bit

    But the Twins had a terrible owner too and won several division titles. The Marlins have a terrible owner and have won a championship.

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on Aug 4, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

    The Marlins won in Loria's first season

    before he had time to Loria it up. Barry Switzer had more to do with the Cowboys’ 1996 championship than Loria did with the Marlins 2003 win.

    Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
    My Twitter feed.

    by Matt Klaassen on Aug 4, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

    Still

    They haven’t been god awful since.

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on Aug 4, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

    true

    I don’t think the Orioles owner should get all the blame. But the Marlins have put in about zero effort, too. And in this case, documents back it up. Imagine what they would have done if Loria had been willing to put in at least a little money out there. The Marlins have managed to waste the prime of Hanley Ramirez.

    Making watching baseball as fun as doing your taxes.
    My Twitter feed.

    by Matt Klaassen on Aug 4, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

    The Twins would never have been known as a great team

    if they played in the AL East.

    At best they would have been seen as okay, similar to Toronto.

    NY and Boston is too tough for almost any team to overcome.

    by deezle on Aug 4, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

    maybe 10 years ago it was...

    I dont know if it is now. The Orioles dont spend at all internationally, which could be an ownership problem.

    When they hired MacPhail (sp?) it was seen as their Dayton Moore moment, when they brought in a respected Baseball Man to run things.

    by Freneau on Aug 4, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

    Which is why this needs to be more specific:
    Hire the best GM candidate on the market and let him assemble a new team.

    If you trust everybody else, you get Dayton Moore or MacPhail. Hire the best GM candidate on the market “who has proven to understand the new universe of baseball analysis”.

    Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

    by SagehenMacGyver47 on Aug 4, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

    Will, a question about their pitching prospects

    Several of those guys you list have started OK, only to sorta unravel after a while in the majors. One of the analysts on MLB Network suggested that the Baltimore team defense is so bad, it can shatter the confidence of these guys, particularly some of the soft tossers, such as Britton.

    Do you concur with that opinion? (I have no impression of the Baltimore defense – I simply don’t get to see them enough to have an opinion)

    If strikeouts are indeed fascist - then find me some starters that believe in fascism

    by loyal2sdad on Aug 4, 2011 10:43 AM EDT reply actions  

    Britton throws 92 MPH

    which is little above average for lefty.

    by Gopherballs on Aug 4, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

    Guthrie/Britton have been OK. Not great, not bad, though they're not getting strikeouts.

    Arrieta was a B+ prospect, but always had control problems. I suppose you could make a case that not trusting his defense means he’s unwilling to throw more strikes, but this has always been a problem for him, not just now that his ML defense is subpar.

    Bergesen was a C+. The fact that he’s in the majors at all is a good thing for the Orioles. Not a high ceiling, but he can be a #4/5. He’s an example of a guy who doesn’t have a ton of stuff (89 mph FB) and doesn’t get a lot of Ks, so he’s going to rely on his defense.

    Tillman’s OK, he was a B+, and has decent K and BB numbers. FIP is good, xFIP not so much, but he’s got a .348 BABIP this season, so the defense hasn’t helped him, as you mentioned. According to Sickels, though, his FB velocity has declined this season: TINSTAAPP.

    Matusz looked good in 2010, and has been injured.

    While this may not be a championship-caliber rotation, it’s at least the foundation to build on:
    Matusz
    Britton
    Guthrie
    Tillman
    Bergesen

    Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448

    by SagehenMacGyver47 on Aug 4, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

    Supposedly the Bundy brothers are going to be studs

    But we’ve heard that before. Machado is a top 5 prospect in baseball but other than that they have decent prospects like Wieters/Matusz who haven’t played well this year, but still have a good chance to be good.

    They really fucked up the 2009 draft and picked a player who seems like a total bust, meanwhile that draft looks fantastic for everyone else.

    The Orioles are the one team you compare the Royals too and you become grateful for Moore’s solid drafts.

    by GobbleforCyoung on Aug 4, 2011 10:54 AM EDT reply actions  

    Oh wow,

    Matthew Hobgood has been really bad this year

    SBN's most random and mysterious lurker guy who posts too much
    Follow me on Twitter if you want: Lum_SM

    by Lum on Aug 4, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

    Do you have cable?

    I have satellite in Alexandria and hate when the Royals and Orioles play because it’s the only time that mlb.tv is blacked out.

    by kcdc1 on Aug 4, 2011 10:59 AM EDT reply actions  

    This is no panacea for the Os, but...

    …couldn’t they use some better coaching, esp. in terms of pitching? I mean, if the vets are helping coach, or are bad examples, then you need a manager with a vision and discipline (the latter because young teams supposedly need more of it). But a good, inspiring manager—-even one who makes poor in-game decisions (think Dusty Baker and the 2003 Cubs)—-can take a mediocre team a long way. – TL

    "Sir,--It has been wittily remarked that there are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third and most aggravated is statistics." *The National Observer* (June 13, 1891): p. 93-94.

    by timlacy on Aug 4, 2011 11:03 AM EDT reply actions  

    they have had 3 pitching coaches in the last year

    so that may be part ofthe problem. rany mentioned on his podcast that they may have really poor player development people, includiong at the ML level, with all this failure. i dont know. then again, coaching doesnt make yuo lose fastball speed. i think.

    remember when they hired Leo Mazzone and it was a big deal?

    by Freneau on Aug 4, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

    yeah

    having the pitching coach quit midseason is probably not helping their pitching

    Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
    Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!

    by BHWick on Aug 4, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

    It's that Buck Showalter magic.

    one of the most humble guys in baseball

    SBN's most random and mysterious lurker guy who posts too much
    Follow me on Twitter if you want: Lum_SM

    by Lum on Aug 4, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

    Hey they have Buck Showalter now

    I’m sure they’re great at fundamentals and at wearing their socks the right way.

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on Aug 4, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

    Buck means that

    they’ll win the world series the year after he gets fired

    Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/bhindepmo
    Chairman, The Melky Cabrera Seasoning Sauce. It's great on your outfield!

    by BHWick on Aug 4, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

    The only way they’ll ever have a chance is if MLB realigns and loses divisions as they’re talking about and does away with the unbalanced schedule. They have no shot to compete against the Yankees, Red Sox, and Blue Jays on resources. Those teams have some pretty smart FO too.

    2011 Royals Review NCAA Bracket Challenge Winner, by process of attrition

    by sfeldkamp on Aug 4, 2011 1:04 PM EDT reply actions  

    Its not about resources though

    The Rays don’t have resources and they won the division. But I admit, it is going to be very tough for the next few years.

    Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

    by RoyalsRetro on Aug 4, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

    Well, we've been talking about this post over on CC

    and we concur, pretty hopeless.

    "Real Orioles don't pout. Real Orioles don't gloat. Real Orioles just win."

    by NewYorkOriole on Aug 4, 2011 1:35 PM EDT reply actions  

    Will, didn't you switch the site banner to the "the Royals are the next O's" a couple of years ago?

    I know there was some discussion about the parallels between the two organizations.

    What should the O’s do? It is probably time to move McPhail out to pasture (or to the commish’s office as the rumor goes), hire a new generation GM, but keep the young core together for at least another year in hopes that the new GM can pull off some AA like moves. I was never real high on Arrieta or Tillman, but it is way too early to give up on Britton or Matusz (especially considering the injury). As mentioned above, they have some nice pieces in the minors too.

    by Gopherballs on Aug 4, 2011 1:39 PM EDT reply actions  

    I probably did

    There was real excitement for the Orioles awhile back. The debut nights of Wieters and some of the young pitcehrs were comparable to how we all felt about Moose, Hosmer, etc.

    Angelos meddled in the sense of wanthing to spend, Glass meddled in wanthing to be cheap…

    by Freneau on Aug 4, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

    How hopeless is it?

    see Tampa and reasons for their revival??
    Boston and why they’re perpetually good, etc.
    Angels ditto.
    Cardinals same.
    never hopeless with right GM/manager combos?

    .

    by Coach Feb on Aug 4, 2011 1:52 PM EDT reply actions  

    The Orioles

    Although younger the last couple of years, spent a decade as a team whose hitters were all over 30, one year the average age of their hitters was over 33.

    They had a few prospects, led by the overhyped Weiters, and Jones is still a fine player , but even finally getting a little younger, they still seem to have no direction.

    Heck, they signed Derrek Lee and Vlad in free agency last year, and traded for Mark Reynolds. What are you trying to accomplish with that?

    They seem to have very little real commitment to player development, no latin american presence, no organizational philosophy. Yes, I would blow it up, and start at the top.

    "Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance

    by KHAZAD on Aug 4, 2011 2:34 PM EDT reply actions  

    Yeahhhh Baltimore!!!!!

    Living in KC and watching the great Royal teams and then moving to Baltimore and seeing the O’s makes me love baseball.

    The fans go out and fill the stadiums. The owners and GM’s both know what they’re doing arebuilding contenders. Who needs George Brett or Cal Ripken? Both teams are better off without them. It can’t get any better.

    P.S. I’m not a O’s fan. Only go to the games when the Royals come to town. And no KC you’re not alone. Baseball here is just as depressing as it there, maybe more. They have no hope here. Except for Vladimir Guerrero

    by mowjr88 on Aug 4, 2011 6:02 PM EDT reply actions  

    I thought they were going to actually be alright.

    I figured a line up of Roberts,Jones,Markakis,Lee,Vlad,Weiters, and Scott would be pretty sollid and they had a pretty young staff but they fell off.

    by vic1124 on Aug 4, 2011 6:49 PM EDT reply actions  

    How many Royals fans live in the greater Washington DC metropolitan area?

    We should consider going to a sports bar and watching a Royals game with a few brews before the season ends, I figure.

    by Bill Gallo on Aug 4, 2011 11:21 PM EDT reply actions  

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