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Around SBN: Full Coverage of 2012 Coke 600

232 Days Later: The Greinke Trade, Then and Now

Zack Greinke Traded To Brewers the headline rang out, the crier Zimmerman informing the community of the events that had transpired. The reaction from the crowd would be short to follow, and it was much more agitated than I had recalled at the time.  I was new to RR, and was merely an Observer, but this was the event that led me to become a more active participant.

"SHOOT ME IN THE FACE!"

--Raiderhater1

"I guess Avilies is going to play (10) Concession Manager or (11) Tarp Specialist."

--BlueEyes_Austin

Terrible, terrible trade.  Worse than Beltran. Escobar will be out of the major leagues within three years.

--NyghteWynd

At least Yuni is gone

Some consolation there.

--Olentangy

 

Among these colorful observations there was also an air of "wait and see", particularly regarding Alcides Escobar, who was getting a lot of flack from the Facebook cognoscenti due to a poor rookie season at the plate (.235./.288/.326) but was getting high marks for defense.  Others wondered what would become of Jeremy Jeffress, both due to his issues of control and some off the field concerns; Lorenzo Cain seemed like a nice piece but sort of a "meh" to "meh+", who many thought would at least be the 4th OF in 2011.  Jake Odorizzi came in perceived as an optimistic, high-ceiling prospect, a guy that could excel if he continued to perform and improve, and his numbers entering the organization were very good, although in the very low minors.

 

So where do we stand on these players now?

Star-divide

 

Alcides Escobar:  Esky has filled pretty much everyone's expectations.  I was surprised when I checked, but his hitting line so far this season (.247/.283/.327) is a rough aggregate to his rookie campaign, and his wOBA is almost identical to what it was as a rookie (.271 this year, .270 last season).  The only real difference is that his BABIP has risen (from .264 to .276), his LD% is down a few points 21.5 to 17.4), and it seems to have all been given to GB% (44.3 to 53.4).  His BRAA (batting runs above average) last year was -21.7, and he's on pace to be right around that number this year (-16.2).  However, he has also stepped up his defense this year, with 8.0 runs above average compared to 3.4 for last season, which is a quantum leap from what Yuniesky Betancourt gave us last year (-9.5) and what we would have seen from him this year (-11.5 so far.  Simply stunning).  Escobar is currently a 1.3 fWAR player.  (side note: in 1,032 ABs, Esky has 7 HRs (1 per 147.2).  Chris Getz, in 957 ABs, has 2 HRs (1 per 478.5)

 

Jeremy Jeffress:  J.J. started off the year pretty much in-line with how the rest of the bullpen had pitched to that point.  Through May 5th, he had thrown 13.1 innings, and struck out 13 batters.  He also walked 8 and gave up 7 hits.  Then, the thinkable happened:  across two appearances on May 16th (a 19-1 blowout loss to Cleveland aka The Mazzaro Game) and May 18th (a 5-4 loss to Texas), Jeffress had a miniplosion.  On the 16th he gave up four hits and two runs in 1.2 innings.  He also allowed all three of his inherited runners to score.  The 18th against Texas, you may remember, is one of the games the Royals managed to touch up Neftali Feliz.  After Soria came in to a 2-2 game in the top of the 9th and gave up the lead, Hosmer homered leading off the bottom of the 9th on the first pitch he saw from Feliz to tie the game at 3-3.  The game ranged into the 11th inning, and Jeffress came in to start the inning in replace of Blake Wood.  He would do the following:  Walk, Sac Bunt, Walk, Walk, Single, two runs scored, Teaford Replaces Jeffress.  Shortly after this game, and without pitching again for the Royals, he was sent down to AAA, where the Royals decided to try and make him a starter.  That experiment didn't last very long, and he only made three starts.  His totals from Omaha:  24 IP, 27 H, 18 BB, 24 K, 5 HR.  So, they bumped him down to AA, where he continues to struggle (he has made four starts for NWA for 15.2 innings with 13 BB and 7 K).

 

Lorenzo Cain:  in 2010 at age 24, Cain got his first sample of the majors.  He responded admirably, hitting .306/.348/.415 in 158 PAs.  Presumably, LoCa was going to be a piece of the Royals outfield in 2011.  Unfortunately (at the time) the Royals had signed OFer Melky Cabrera not a fortnight past (if you haven't read Will's piece on the signing at the time, do it now), and that coupled with the previous inking of Jeff "I'm a Leader Because I'll Show You My Balls" Francoeur, left Cain without a starting position.  And being thusly a franchise who values "everyday playing time" for their prospects (except for, you know, all of those prospects they don't value it for), Lorenzo was relegated to AAA Omaha, presumably until A) Melky hit like Melky, B) Frenchy's penchant for nude BP didn't have the effect desired, C) Frenchy hit like Frenchy, D) Melky was injured, E) Frenchy was injured, F) Melky was traded, G) Frenchy was traded, or H) Melky and Frenchy were traded.  Surely the odds of one of those things happening  are pretty good rightRight?

Well, the long and short of it is, none of those things have happened.  Melky is having a career year (.303/.337/.461).  Francoeur is also having one of the best seasons of his career (plus the intangibles).  Until Cabrera decided to accost his ankles, both have been healthy;  They have each played in 110 games.  Oh, and neither of them were traded.  So, where has that left Cain?  In Omaha, hitting .310/.380/.509, with 23 doubles, 6 triples, 14 HRs and 12/17 in stolen bases (last season in AA/AAA with the Brewer's org., he was 26/29 in SBs).  The easy thing to say is this season, in terms of Cain and the big leagues, is a perfect storm.  The Royals signed two young, veteran outfielders prior to the Greinke trade.  They promised them both a starting job (promises, promises).  Both decided to play above expectations.  At the deadline, the Astros traded 4,169 outfielders, and the Royals' front office, possibly combined with their own high asking price, were left without a trade partner.  And so here we find ourselves.  The good news is, Cain is not burning service time on a meaningless season.  The bad news is for you to decide.

 

Jake Odorizzi:  Depending on which reports you read, Odo was either the Brewers' #1 or #3 prospect in their organization at the time of the trade.  He was, however, widely considered to be their best starting pitching prospect, although he only had one season above rookie ball.  Since he came over in the trade, he has pitched phenomenally.  He started the year in High A ball, having pitched the previous season for Wisconsin in the Midwest league.  In 2010, he pitched in 23 games for Wisconsin, made 20 starts, threw 120.2 innings, and struck out 135 batters to just 40 walks.  He started 2011 in Wilmington, and picked up right where he left off.  In 15 starts, he threw 78.1 innings and struck out an astounding 103 batters to just 22 walks.  He was promoted to AA this season, and since then he is having to learn to adjust to the new level.  His K/9 rate fell to about 6.9 and his BB/9 jumped to 3.5.  He has thrown a couple of good games in AA, but overall the results have not been there (something you might take comfort in is that, when he jumped from the Arizona Fall League to the Pioneer League in Rookie Ball, he had a somewhat similar adjustment period.  Different in some ways, but there was an adjustment to be made).  Despite this speed bump, Odorizzi is one of the top prospects in the Royals system, and so far is still on a track to make a big league debut sometime during the 2013 season.

 

So there you have it.  I will leave you with the same poll that Scott made last December.

Poll
How do You Feel About This Trade?
Great
182 votes
Good
577 votes
Ok, meh, so-so, decent
129 votes
Bad
33 votes
Horrible
9 votes

930 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 175 comments  |  5 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

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Comments

Display:

I was hoping you'd find the quotes that labeled Escobar "TPJ Jr."

It seemed a little early to write him off.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 8, 2011 7:13 PM EDT reply actions  

So far, with a sample of 20 votes, things are trending more towards the "Good" side of things

As opposed to the “Horrible” side of things, but voter demographic might have something to do with it, along with sample size. Very few Facebook fanboys around.

We should trade for Vance Worley.

by JKWard on Aug 8, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's about 1.2WAR so far this year...

I think most of us would have traded that for the chance that Cain or Odorrizi are any good. If either of them are any good, then this trade looks great.

Nick Swisher is handsome.

by ChrisCEIT on Aug 8, 2011 10:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Weird. I feel like Escobar has been way better this year than that

I guess it’s just the defense and the Jeteresque hot streak that are clouding my vision, though.

SBN's most random and mysterious lurker guy who posts too much
Follow me on Twitter if you want: Lum_SM

by Lum on Aug 9, 2011 1:49 AM EDT reply actions  

The power of the brief hot streak is amazing

Escobar has somehow hit worse than last season and now finds himself just above the TPJ level (obviously not writing him off, but good grief, a.604 OPS/ 268 wOBA is atrocious).

If he had scattered the hits from the hot streak over four months instead of four weeks, I would bet the prevailing opinion on him would be much different.

by Gopherballs on Aug 9, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting to contrast this with the Ubaldo trade now

The Rockies definitely went with quality over quantity, getting one of the best pitchers in the minors, and two guys who project as relievers, and an organizational filler 1B. We got four guys who could very well contribute to the big leagues, but may not have an All-Star Game in any of them.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 9, 2011 9:30 AM EDT reply actions  

That's one of things that got me into doing a recall of the Greinke trade

I think we did better, but I also think Milwaukee was more desperate and Greinke is viewed as a better starting pitcher.

We should trade for Vance Worley.

by JKWard on Aug 9, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

One valid criticism of this type of quantity over quality deal

is that the trading of an elite player like Greinke is one of the few opportunities in which a team can actually acquire an elite prospect or young player. The players that come back in the quantity deal could have probably been acquired separately without having to trade an elite player to get them.

by Gopherballs on Aug 9, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shouldn't the trade analysis

also include how Zack and Yuni have performed for the Brewers?

Chaim Mattis Keller New York City's # 1 Royals fan!

by cmkeller on Aug 9, 2011 12:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't really go in for making Dayton look bad or good

I rather let his moves speak for themselves without adding unnecessary vitriol to the discussion.

We should trade for Vance Worley.

by JKWard on Aug 9, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Vitriol is always necessary!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 9, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I Knew A

Tenured English professor at Washburn who had two shots of gin and bitters every day before he left for work. He died af a massive heart attack at 49.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Aug 9, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

ha!

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Aug 10, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not Huge, But

Definitely overweight.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Aug 15, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think its part of the analysis

But a small one since at the time of the trade, you don’t know quite how those players were going to perform. You had an idea, but you didn’t know for sure. That’s why I give DM a pass for trading Jorge de la Rosa – his success was rather unexpected, while I don’t give him a pass for Jacobs/Nunez – because Nunez seemed like a good bet to be a decent reliever while Jacobs was expected to drop off significantly.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 9, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

This was more in response to the Jimenez trade

And also in regard to how the opinion of the trade has shifted since last December. Will did a write-up post in the last couple of months updating Greinke and Betancourt, so I didn’t thnk it was necessary to re-hash. But it should definitely be considered in some quantity.

We should trade for Vance Worley.

by JKWard on Aug 9, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great

Odorizzi, Cain, Escobar will all be key members of a contending team. Jeffress has a live arm that COULD mature down the road. The Royals are on their way, and it has a lot to do with this trade.

2012= contend
2013= playoffs
2014= WS

2014 Line up?

CF Bubba (yes 2 years of minors will be enough)
1B Hosmer
RF Wil Myers
3B Moose
DH Butler
LF Gordon
2B Giavotella (I am sold-Dustin 2.0)
C Salvador Perez/ FA (maybe Montero Arizona)
SS Escobar

1-Marcum
2-Monty
3-Odorizzi
4-Duffy
5- Hoe/Crow/Lamb/ or 2012 1st round college arm or FA

Assumes a lot, but sure looks nice.

by 102win on Aug 9, 2011 7:32 PM EDT reply actions  

As good as Odorizzi looks so far, he's still not a sure shot

and it’s definitely premature to look at him as a definite success at the major league level. (I would say the same about Cain, who is not at all a known quantity.)

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room!

by KeepItCopacetic on Aug 10, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Butler will be traded by then

Frenchy will be the DH.

That information is somewhat classified.

by Karte on Aug 17, 2011 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Cain will turn out better because of his extended stay

The Royals rushed a lot of these prospects and have paid for it this season. They did the same with Gordon and I think it really messed his development up. Maybe I’m wrong about this and don’t mean to sound matter of fact, but I think they should have waited. It’s not like playoffs were a likely scenario so it’s best to really be sure the guys are ready to be called up and have been playing great for an extended period of time.

The Rays are an example of this and I think patience is a huge reason for their success in developing their own players. They get the most out of their players and can be save a ton of money by signing them to extensions early in their contracts and knowing their risk is much more likely to pay off.

"You need to get real!"

by MJ5 on Aug 9, 2011 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

The offseason in '14-'15 is going to be ugly

All of these guys are going to hit arbitation at the same time

Unless I'm wrong...

by Top Ramen on Aug 10, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Royals fans have seen this happen before

Bury the guy who is performing well in AAA because they think he doesn’t have the tools for it. Don’t bother giving him a shot, because the Royals FO has such great major league talent evaluators.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 9, 2011 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying not to give him a shot

I think they should have traded one of Frenchy/ Melky and brought him up at the deadline. I’m just saying that I think that’s a reason for some of the struggles. Guys get called up and aren’t prepared or as much as they could have been. I get that the fans were really anxious to see these highly touted players, but I still think it was wrong.

"You need to get real!"

by MJ5 on Aug 10, 2011 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

My comments the day of the trade:

“Escobar seems to have been a super-hyped prospect (#12 on BA) coming into 2010, and then he didn’t hit at all. His MiLB numbers weren’t glowing by any means, but in 2008 and 2009, he hit ~.310/.355/.420 in AA and AAA. He was billed as a great defender at SS, so those numbers would have looked pretty good. Of course, he hit .235/.288/.364 in the Majors last year. He batted .300 in 100+ MLB PA’s in 2009, so maybe last year was just an unlucky batting average year. It feels like he’ll be good defensively and bad offensively, but at SS, that makes you roughly average.

Cain seems solid. He’s hit for good average and he walks a lot. He steals bases, an his numbers suggest he’ll hit maybe 10-15 HRs a year. That sounds like a young DDJ offensively, but with steals and plus defense in CF. I see a good player but not a star.

Odorizzi was the #32 pick overall in 2008, and at 20 years old put up a 2.93 FIP with 10 K/9 and 3 BB/9. He apparently has a good frame and might add velocity. Seems like he’s got about the prospect status of a Montgomery or Lamb. He’s also right-handed which probably matters to the Royals FO given the wealth of LHP talent.

Seems like we got 3 players who should all be capable MLB players and could maybe be very good."

And:

Yeah, I was already ignoring Jeffress in the deal. A reliever prospect with control problems and character issues. Better than no reliever prospect but not by much.

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 10:19 AM EDT reply actions  

My opinion of Escobar apparently hasn’t changed at all since we acquired him. I’m less high on Cain now—the DDJ comparison doesn’t feel right because Cain strikes out quite a bit more. The Odorizzi assessment seems about right, but from what I’ve read, I now doubt he’ll add velocity. Jeffress was worthy of ignoring.

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

If Alcides routinely plays closer to his peak this season

and we get good value out of anyone else, I think it’s a great trade, but no one looks like they’ll provide significant major league help in the next 12 months. Not to say Cain can’t.

by 9il on Aug 10, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

What would you consider a great trade?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 10, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

what sort of numbers do you think Alcides would need to put up at the plate

assuming his defense doesn’t change, to make him an elite player?

by 9il on Aug 10, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Something like

.270/.320/.410 (.320 wOBA) to be a 4+ WAR player.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's within his possible range

I wouldn’t be surprised if he hits .265/.310/.380 next season.

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bump that slug% down to .370. I think he caps out at ~.100 ISO.

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that would be about a .305 wOBA. Over a full season if you add that to about +10 runs defensively and I think you have a 2.5-3.0 WAR player.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Getzian elite?

"Things could always be worse." - Buddy Bell

by buddyball on Aug 10, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

There was a brief discussion on this yesterday

But should we assess trades based on the opinion of the players at the time, or what they actually do become?

Right now I guess you could argue the consensus is that the Royals got no elite talent. But what if Alcides Escobar turns into a 4-5 WAR player? What if Odorizzi wins a Cy Young? Does that make it a great trade? Or did Dayton simply get lucky?

Was the AJ Pierzynski trade a great trade because Joe Nathan became an elite closer? Or did they just get lucky that a mediocre starter became an elite closer?

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 10, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right now I guess you could argue the consensus is that the Royals got no elite talent. But what if Alcides Escobar turns into a 4-5 WAR player? What if Odorizzi wins a Cy Young? Does that make it a great trade? Or did Dayton simply get lucky?

Hell, I’d give Dayton the benefit of the doubt. If one of those players turns into a 4+ WAR player in the majors, I’ll give him and his team credit for seeing that greatness in him.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I voted great

But I really love Esky. He’s half of my Royals entertainment value. I liked watching him bat even when he was hitting .203. If the Brewers offered Greinke back for Escobar alone right now, I wouldn’t make the trade.

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

2007 TPJ /// .267/.284/.356

TPJ really was a remarkable player. In 2008, he hit .169/.189/.209 and we brought him back the next season only to hit EVEN WORSE.

by 9il on Aug 10, 2011 11:41 AM EDT reply actions  

I Think The

League figured him out.

I used to be an A's fan until they left town and got good.

by philofthenorth on Aug 15, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a pretty low bar

It’s a good trade for the Royals if they merely get “some contributors”?

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

It seems like it, yes

But look back through history and see what trades for big name starters have netted…. prove my memory wrong.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Some have gone well. Some have not.

The fact that some such trades have been failures doesn’t mean that getting any production in trade for your star player makes it a win.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

True but did some quick pull ups...

We’ve got Brewers and Indians…. Sabathia to Milwaukee for Matt LaPorta, Rob Bryson, Taylor Green, and Zack Jackson.

We’ve got Mets and Twins… Johan Santana to NY Mets for Carlos Gomez, Deoliz Guerra, Kevin Mulvey, and Phillip Humber.

We’ve got Mariners and Rangers… Cliff Lee to Texas for Justin Smoak, Blake Beavan, Josh Lueke, and Matt Lawson.

We’ve got Phillis and Indians… Cliff Lee and Ben Fransisco to Phillies for Carlos Carrasco, Jason Knapp, Lou Marson, and Jason Donald.

We’ve got the Padres and White Sox… Jake Peavey to Chicago for Clayton Richard, Aaron Poreda, Dexter Carter, and Adam Russell…

That’s just an overview. We got a gold glove caliber defensive SS, a potentially average CF, a top pitching prospect, and a throw-in power armed reliever. So I think we did okay with contributing players.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Carlos Beltran vindicated!

We demanded contributors and Mark Teahen stepped up and said “I WILL CONTRIBUTE.”

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 10, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

in terms of building a team, yes.

in terms of successful scouting by the Royals… what else was on the table? Our system was so depleted at that point that anyone offering prospects couldn’t be refused. I guess you have to take the state of the franchise involved at the time of the trade.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

By most reports

Robinson Cano.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 10, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmm....

Do you believe Moore when he says only two teams made formal offers? Or do you believe the reports floated by teams using media people?

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

He didn't lie

I think he had two formal offers in hand. Doesn’t mean he didn’t have broad offers from other teams.

I think he also had a formal offer from the Nationals that got binned when Greinke refused a trade there.

by BlueEyes_Austin on Aug 10, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

which was the best option.

But we only have what we have… can’t play what-ifs there.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also have to consider

when the GM self-limits the return to major league ready SS and CF, or major league ready No. 3 starter, or major league ready 3B and C, that kind of limits the offers.

by Gopherballs on Aug 10, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never heard that

With the Beltran trade, I maybe remember something like that (a rumor at least). But I didn’t hear that about the Greinke trade.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Escobar

He brings so much with him defensively. I said the other day that his defense was worth Greinke by himself. So then you add on top of that a budding starter who has potential and an OF who looks like he will be at least average. And a guy who has a lot to figure out but a power arm.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 11:43 AM EDT reply actions  

I said the other day that his defense was worth Greinke by himself

How do you figure? Do you think Escobar’s defense prevents as many runs as Greinke’s pitching did?

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Depends what the alternative is

For 2012, it’s possible that the trade replaced Yuni with Escobar and Greinke with Hochevar (could be our 5th starter next year).

I could see Escobar saving 25 more runs than Yuni and Greinke allowing only 20 fewer runs than Hochevar.

It’s possible. And it will be funny if it happens.

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not just in terms of runs.

I’m thinking of wear and tear on pitchers. Extra pitches. Even if a guy doesn’t score, you might have to throw 15 extra pitches in an inning. These are things that allow younger pitchers to excel. Especially when you have to shut guys down for inning allotments/pitch allotments. I don’t know if you can put it into stats without going over the course of the two teams involved and chart every play Yuni makes/doesn’t make vs. every play Alcides makes/doesn’t make and the extra pitches/base runners involved in each….. it’d be a lot of work but something that is possible if someone has time…

We look at it different Scott. I look at it from a coaching stand point. You look at it from a statistical stand point.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Greinke allowing only 20 fewer runs than Hochevar.

Wow, really? That would mean either Zack went up to being a 4.25 ERA pitcher, or Luke went down to being a 3.80 ERA type pitcher. Would be great to see, but I don’t expect it at all.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 10, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea

Do you think he’ll repeat that performance? Because his FIP has been fantastic. I wouldn’t expect it going forward. I think Luke with that defense might put up a 6 ERA.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 10, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

My other point

(I’ll spell it out) is that KC’s defense last year on the infield was just as bad (or worse) than the Brewers IF D this year.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I don't think subtracting Yuni is a big part of that trade's benefit to the Royals

Yuni was only under contract for this year. So he was going to be gone regardless. So this is only a benefit for 2011, a lost season.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you arguing that there’s a big benefit from having Escobar at SS this year instead of Yuni because it has helped develop pitchers better? I’m sorry, but if that’s what you’re saying, you’re putting too much weight in that. Yuni was a throw-in, and he’s of throw-in importance.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like I said

you are evaluating from a statistical stand point. I’m going from a coaching stand point.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's possible

Let’s say they both pitch 200 innings. If Greinke posts a 3.40 ERA and Hoch posts a 4.40 ERA, Hoch will only have allowed 22 more earned runs.

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

True

I think I did my math wrong initially.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 10, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

It easily could happen this year

And that would be hilarious. Yuni may be bad enough to completely offset Greinke’s value.

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's a reason no one is talking about it

It was very minor. It affects only this year.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

which is greater than a lot of teams got.

They got rid of Yuni and replaced him with a SS who is top of the league. Defense is undervalued.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Getting Escobar for something like 5 years was of real value to the Royals

Getting rid of Yuni for one season was of little value. This is my point. People pointing the defense difference in 2012 between Yuni and Escobar and acting like that’s of huge value to the Royals are being short-sighted in my opinion.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think its of value

Not just being short sited because I’ve accounted for the next 4 years of Alcides. But I digress…

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your assuming

That GMDM wouldn’t have resigned him…

I’m going to go lie down now. I’m filling ill just thinking about it.

by Pointed Stick on Aug 12, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

New Greinke Trade Clause

Void any trade thats includes Betancourt

by 102win on Aug 10, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

at the moment though....

ZG is a 2.5 WAR player where as Luke is a 1.4 WAR player.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

So ~11 runs so far

Escobar’s UZR minus Yuni’s UZR is 19.5 runs at the moment.

You might be more right than you ever knew…..

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

or did I know….?

It’s like the end of Inception.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

The alternative is a replacement level player going forward

The “let’s just look at 2012” exercise is interesting, but in the end, not very meaningful.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Finding a genuinely replacement level SS really isn't that hard

The fact that the Brewers are sticking with awful vets is irrelevant.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

They tried desperately to replace Yuni

They’ve stuck with him because he was their best available option.

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

There’s no one they could have picked up? No waiver wire pick up or minor league trade they could have made to bring in a replacement level schlub? I don’t believe that. I think they are sticking with vets because they aren’t willing to try a decent glove man minor leaguer who can’t hit.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that as well.... but....

when you look at it from their perspective… which is more valuable to them? A guy who can swing it a little in or a better glove? Yuni’s glove isn’t awful, he makes the plays he gets too. You can’t evaluate the whole thing on UZR/UZR150…

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just don't think you're right here

I remember reading several reports and tweets from baseball reporters chuckling at the Brewers’ struggles and inability to rid themselves of Yuni.

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

What he is saying that if they wanted to give up on the $$ paid to Counsell and Yuni

they’d have to eat it. But they don’t want too. They could have had Kurt Mertins who is a glove only guy for a PTBNL or $50. That was an option of course but we don’t consider that a legit option.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well the catch is that Yuni swings it a little

So trading for a glove-only guy isn’t an upgrade overall. Yuni is a replacement level player. The Brewers couldn’t find anyone better.

by kcdc1 on Aug 10, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sigh

Scott, you are confusing a useful theoretical concept with the operational realities of running a baseball team.

by BlueEyes_Austin on Aug 10, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Adam Everett

John McDonald
Roberto Andino
Cesar Izturis
Ronny Cedeno
Brandon Wood

by Gopherballs on Aug 10, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair

the Brewers had to see YuniFail for themselves. At that point, some of those guys weren’t available. It’ll be disappointing to see them get beat in a series or miss the playoffs because of poor SS D.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was only addressing the point that replacement level SS are not scarce

I am not sure what y’all were arguing about. The Brewers were idiots for relying on Betancourt and should have been able to find someone at least marginally better at little cost (if not last offseason, during the season).

by Gopherballs on Aug 10, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

The argument was that Yuni was the THE SS option for the Brewers

And that he would have been the only SS option for the Royals had he not been traded. That simply wasn’t the case. A replacement level SS could have been acquired easily and inexpensively.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

McDonald, Andino, and Cedeno are all on 25 man rosters and all playing above replacement (indeed, Cedeno is at 1.7 bWAR). None are “freely available.”

Izturis is probably hurt—he’s had 61 PA in the majors AND minors.

Brandon Wood was waived and is the only one on your list that could count as a “replacement player.”

by BlueEyes_Austin on Aug 10, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

They were each freely available talent in the offseason

Neither the Royals nor Brewers when they had Yuni as their default starting SS had to stick with Yuni. There were other, cheap, replacement level or better SS’s out there who could easily be had. Arguing that the Royals (before the trade) or Brewers (after the trade) had “no other option” but to go with Yuni is flatly false.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, they were not.

McDonald signed a 2 year deal in Dec. 2009. Andino is still under team control. Cedeno was arb eligible for the Pirates prior to this year.

by BlueEyes_Austin on Aug 10, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

None would have cost anything of real value to acquire

Doug Melvin: “Hello, Andy, I am looking for some shortstop depth, and I see that you acquired my old friend JJ Hardy — nice deal — and you resigned Izturis to back him up. Anyway, any chance I can get Andino from you.”

Andy McPhail: “Thanks for the inquiry, Doug, but Roberto Andino is a cornerstone of our franchise and is not available.”

Doug Melvin: “Good one, Andy. Seriously, I have a couple of real live arms in Huntsville . . .”

Andy McPhail: “Roberto Andino is a cornerstone of our franchise and is not available.”

Doug Melvin: “???”

Andy McPhail: “Roberto Andino is a cornerstone of our franchise and is not available.”

Doug Melvin: “You take care, Andy. I mean that.”

“Free” as in “freely available” does not mean literally zero cost.

by Gopherballs on Aug 10, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now you're changing the baseline

Replacement level doesn’t mean “costs something, but nothing of real value.”

by BlueEyes_Austin on Aug 10, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, replacement level refers to WAR production. Specifically it refers to performing at the level of a replacement level player, or 0 WAR.

The concept of “freely available talent” as discussed in baseball circles doesn’t necessarily refer to “free” players, because no player is entirely free. But there are always many FAT players at replacement level or better who can be had for next to nothing. Gopherballs listed several such SS’s above.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sigh

“McDonald, Andino, and Cedeno are all on 25 man rosters and all playing above replacement (indeed, Cedeno is at 1.7 bWAR).”

by BlueEyes_Austin on Aug 10, 2011 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you really not get it?

These guys were all easily had both in the offseason and during the season. They are cheap and easily obtainable for very little. They are replacement level or better (currently playing above, but with a true talent level near replacement level). So cheap replacements for Yuni abound. It’s not that complicated, Austin. Yet somehow it eludes you.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

they couldve traded for aviles...

although, i dont know if they even have a yamaico navarro level talent that they could part with

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Aug 10, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

How do you feel now?
Don’t know how I feel about this trade yet

How good are Escobar and Cain?

The immoderate moderator

by Scott McKinney on Dec 19, 2010 6:35 AM PST reply actions

You might of said above. I didn’t read. If so, just copy and paste.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:29 PM EDT reply actions  

I believe that was my initial comment on the trade

…which was followed by many more as I learned more about Escobar, Cain, Odorizzi and Jeffress. Within the day, I felt positive about the trade. I didn’t think it was great, but I liked it. I still like it.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

My comment.
You guys got rid of Batencout

You should be jumping for joy!

(Ducks)

Scouting the Royals
Royals Prospects

by 306008 on Dec 19, 2010 7:27 AM PST reply actions 1 recs

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 12:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Since devil_fingers must be out enjoying the three-week Canadian summer

Last offseason, even though he was under club control for three more years, Brendan Ryan was available for basically scraps because the Cards were going to non-tender him. While nothing great overall, Ryan has been a below average but above replacement level hitter (career 260/316/343, 658 OPS, 296 wOBA) but a great fielder (10.6 UZR/150 in ~3200 career innings). This year, he has posted 2.4 WAR (6.2 fielding runs, -3.3 batting runs).

Adam Everett, the quintessentiall no hit (242/292/346, 640 OPS, 283 wOBA), good glove (+15.0 career UZR/150) shortstop was basically available on cheap one year deals for his entire career.

A team should not have to trade an elite player to acquire a poor hitting but good fielding shortstop.

by Gopherballs on Aug 10, 2011 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

If that's all Alcides becomes

Because his offensive track record is better than Brendan Ryan’s.

Relive Royals History at royalsretro.blogspot.com

by RoyalsRetro on Aug 10, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alcides

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

there's little reason for optimism

he’s already had about 1,000 at bats in the majors. it’s unlikely he’ll get better, particularly since he never displayed a proclivity to hit in the minors.

i’m sure there are players who have managed to hit in the majors despite being complete inept at hitting in the minors, but i bet it’s a very select group.

i’m guessing alcides never clears a .770 OPS in the majors, unless he plays for like 12 years, in which case he might do it once

batter nine you sucky

by marbotty on Aug 10, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

he’s already had about 1,000 at bats in the majors. it’s unlikely he’ll get better, particularly since he never displayed a proclivity to hit in the minors.
i’m sure there are players who have managed to hit in the majors despite being complete inept at hitting in the minors, but i bet it’s a very select group.

While I agree with you that given his lack of improvement this year (or over this major league career) that he’s unlikely to improve much as a MLB hitter, you are wrong on a couple points here. First, it isn’t true that he “never displayed a proclivity to hit in the minors.” He hit pretty well in AA and AAA:

AA .315/.349/.411
AAA .298/.353/.409

And if you’re looking at career minor league numbers, it’s not true that there is only a small group of SS’s who don’t have good minor league hitting numbers and eventually become decent MLB hitters. I listed about a half dozen defense-first SS’s called up at a young age whose overall minor league numbers were poor, but eventually became genuinely good hitters in the majors. You can find it in the original Greinke trade thread.

The problem now is that Escobar doesn’t appear to be improving.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

you know what? you're right

I was looking at his composite minor league numbers, not his two most recent years. Still, I am unconvinced he’ll eventually hit in the majors.

batter nine you sucky

by marbotty on Aug 10, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but the good(ish) news is that his defense might be good enough for him to be a league avearge player (2 WAR) even with his hitting.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 10, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see how you come to that conclusion

Escobar’s offensive track record in the majors and minors is well behind Ryan’s. (Or did I misunderstand what you were saying there?)

batter nine you sucky

by marbotty on Aug 10, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I thought the trade was bad

Because Greinke next year is EXACTLY what we need: an ace

Jeffress may never make it back to the majors…Escobar, for all his stellar defensive play, cannot hit for shit and Cain may never even play for the Royals considering their love affair with Melky and Francour. Yes, I"m being pessimistic, but the above scenarios are possible, if not likely

That leaves Odorizzi who is a very good prospect, but he’s not enough to make this trade even good. The Mets just acquired an even higher ranked prospect (Zack Wheeler) for Beltran, so the chances of trading Greinke before the All Star break next year for a top prospect ( if the Royals are out of contention) are pretty good. Perhaps they wouldn’t have gotten a pitcher as good as Odorizzi, but one pretty close and the difference being the Royals have a legitimate chance to compete for the AL Central next year with Greinke on the team and absolutely nothing greater than a 5% chance to make the playoffs with our current pitching staff

by GobbleforCyoung on Aug 10, 2011 1:29 PM EDT reply actions  

You forgot that Greinke wanted out

And that a Greinke here with that attitude wouldn’t succeed and crash his own trade value to see if he could get the comeback player of the year award. And no, I’m being serious. I would not put that past him. Especially with the stories I’ve heard from the dugout.

by 306008 on Aug 10, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about the difference in WAR over the next several years?

Greinke was only under contract through 2012. We have Escobar, Cain, Jeffress and Odorizzi for several years. That’s important.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 11, 2011 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Plus Escobar is way better than Greinke on his own

Escobar sometimes says adorable things referring to himself as Eskie in third person like, “I threw the ball like a cutter, so I said ‘Come on Eskie!’ but I love Hosmer at first, man.” Greinke’s weirdness was amusing, but far less likable.

Also important: Greinke could only do cool shit once or twice a week, but Escobar makes sweet plays that are fun to watch almost every day.

In conclusion, Escobar brings far more to the team than Greinke ever could.

by kcdc1 on Aug 12, 2011 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is that post-arb?

What’s the pre-arb number

We should trade for Vance Worley.

by JKWard on Aug 12, 2011 4:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

23 would be all of the cost controlled years (both pre-arb and arb)

Post-arb is free agency. The number of pre-arb years are 11.

You may know me as NYRoyal.

by Scott McKinney on Aug 12, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

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